Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:47 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I think you’re clutching at straws. None of this is going well at all. A campaign that said almost anything to get the “no” vote over the line, and now we can see their promises of easy trade deals and sunlit uplands were worthless. The last three years have shown us this. Do you remember how the EU is a huge drain on our economy? Well now we’re spending billions on preparing the country for a disorderly exit, we were told it would never come to. We were told the EU is drowning us in red tape, and yet we’re about to embark on creating masses of it ourselves. They called us a proud free trading nation, but were about to take a huge retrograde step in terms of free trade. You might say this is for freedom, but we are all losing our rights as EU citizens to live and work within the EU (I think I mentioned my neighbour who is a Brexiter who wants to retire in Spain?). It is all turning into a complete train wreck.

I’m open to debate on this, so if you want to point out where I’ve missed pluses, please do, but apart from getting back a sliver of sovereignty that won’t make a difference to anybody’s life, I can’t see them.
One plus is that Spain still likes relatively rich people to go and live there because they like the foreign currency. So no problem there.

Here's another plus. The campaign that said almost anything to get the "yes" vote over the line has been wrong in most respects so far. It may well continue that way.

A huge retrograde step in free trade? I doubt it. From what I gather, the UK would gladly sign a free trade agreement with the EU and it's the EU that doesn't want it. Perhaps it's them that's taking the step back. The EU is only in favour of free trade on its little local scale; it's very much protectionist to anyone outside the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:36 pm

dsr wrote:One plus is that Spain still likes relatively rich people to go and live there because they like the foreign currency. So no problem there.

Here's another plus. The campaign that said almost anything to get the "yes" vote over the line has been wrong in most respects so far. It may well continue that way.

A huge retrograde step in free trade? I doubt it. From what I gather, the UK would gladly sign a free trade agreement with the EU and it's the EU that doesn't want it. Perhaps it's them that's taking the step back. The EU is only in favour of free trade on its little local scale; it's very much protectionist to anyone outside the EU.
We don’t yet know what the situation will be for British people living in Spain. I was as appalled as you by Cameron and Osborne’s project fear (which they also pulled during the Scottish Referendum), but this doesn’t make everything all remainers said was wrong. And also it doesn’t make the now obviously wrong predictions made by leave true. Leave was a classic con. First get you to invest your life savings in their failsafe investment, and once they have this cash, tell you that you stand to lose it if you don’t remortgage your house and invest more.

As for the retrograde step, Britain is leaving a free trade area. It’s not the other way around, and not just with Europe, but Canada and Japan too. It’s our choice to do this. We could have left the EU and retained free trade but we chose not to.

I’m not trying to **** on your chips, but you haven’t provided a single plus.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:53 pm

AndrewJB wrote:We don’t yet know what the situation will be for British people living in Spain. I was as appalled as you by Cameron and Osborne’s project fear (which they also pulled during the Scottish Referendum), but this doesn’t make everything all remainers said was wrong. And also it doesn’t make the now obviously wrong predictions made by leave true. Leave was a classic con. First get you to invest your life savings in their failsafe investment, and once they have this cash, tell you that you stand to lose it if you don’t remortgage your house and invest more.

As for the retrograde step, Britain is leaving a free trade area. It’s not the other way around, and not just with Europe, but Canada and Japan too. It’s our choice to do this. We could have left the EU and retained free trade but we chose not to.

I’m not trying to **** on your chips, but you haven’t provided a single plus.
But for all the warnings leave didn't provide about the intransigence of the EU, that was compensated for by the fact that Remain did tell us how hard negotiations would be.

Britain is leaving a limited free trade area, where we can have free trade with whoever we're told. We can now have free trade with anyone that wants to trade freely with us. Unfortunately that doesn't appear to be the EU, who value their politics more than their trade surplus, but so be it.

Bear in mind that 35% of the voters at the recent Euro elections voted for single-policy parties with Leave Now With No Deal as their policy. Tat equates to about two thirds of leavers, in proportion.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by keith1879 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:40 pm

dsr wrote:But for all the warnings leave didn't provide about the intransigence of the EU, that was compensated for by the fact that Remain did tell us how hard negotiations would be.

Britain is leaving a limited free trade area, where we can have free trade with whoever we're told. We can now have free trade with anyone that wants to trade freely with us. Unfortunately that doesn't appear to be the EU, who value their politics more than their trade surplus, but so be it.

Bear in mind that 35% of the voters at the recent Euro elections voted for single-policy parties with Leave Now With No Deal as their policy. Tat equates to about two thirds of leavers, in proportion.
....and that rather more than 35% voted for real parties who actually want to remain.....

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:20 pm

dsr wrote:But for all the warnings leave didn't provide about the intransigence of the EU, that was compensated for by the fact that Remain did tell us how hard negotiations would be.

Britain is leaving a limited free trade area, where we can have free trade with whoever we're told. We can now have free trade with anyone that wants to trade freely with us. Unfortunately that doesn't appear to be the EU, who value their politics more than their trade surplus, but so be it.

Bear in mind that 35% of the voters at the recent Euro elections voted for single-policy parties with Leave Now With No Deal as their policy. Tat equates to about two thirds of leavers, in proportion.
That’s still not a plus yet. And you know that we also have a say in EU trade deals with other countries (while we’re in it)? We’re not “told” who we can trade with.

And finally the EU have been clear about their negotiating position unlike us. We can leave the EU and retain free trade if we keep to the principles of the EU (which we’ve done for the last forty years without a problem). We’ve insisted we can’t do that, so any free trade deal with the EU has to be negotiated, after we’ve agreed a withdrawal (which we’ve failed to do).

And all of this is because Leave promised everything, and when they failed to deliver (as everyone else predicted) they’ve redrawn the narrative. Them preparing for a no deal (which they said would never happen), is the part of the con where they ask you to remortgage your house and hand over that money, to protect the money you’ve already invested. And you know like with all cons, this won’t be the last time they come back asking for more. Once we’re in no deal land they’ll invoke the blitz spirit and ask us to accept more hardship (reduced environmental standards and a user pay part privatised NHS perhaps, in order to secure a quick US trade deal, which to pass the US senate, will have to be hugely advantageous to the US) because as long as the sucker is still taken in, they’ll keep on taking.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:28 pm

If the government didn't prepare for no deal and we left with no deal it's guaranteed those moaning about the current preparations would moan about a lack of any..

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:28 pm

I'm never quite sure if DSR is the con artist or the sucker
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:21 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I'm never quite sure if DSR is the con artist or the sucker
You obviously haven’t thought about it for at least half a second.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:25 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I'm never quite sure if DSR is the con artist or the sucker
con artist.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:28 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:If the government didn't prepare for no deal and we left with no deal it's guaranteed those moaning about the current preparations would moan about a lack of any..
No. We could have a good deal - remaining in the customs union and single market while exiting the EU - without even the idea of a no deal coming up.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:33 pm

AndrewJB wrote:No. We could have a good deal - remaining in the customs union and single market while exiting the EU - without even the idea of a no deal coming up.
We're exiting the EU pretty soon, so I guess you're talking about extending our departure so it could be more organized and hopefully for some cancelled all together?

Firstly neither party would be able to organise a **** up in a brewery, nevermind an orderly exit from the EU.
Secondly, it's just kicking the can down the road again and would likely end up with us being stitched up with a Norway style deal I think it is, where they get full access but no vote on anything meaning they'll be handed rules and regulations they've got to implement even if they don't like them.... No thanks.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Right_winger » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:39 pm

AndrewJB wrote:No. We could have a good deal - remaining in the customs union and single market while exiting the EU - without even the idea of a no deal coming up.
You just don’t get it do you? People voted to leave the EU because of the ever increasing political nature of it and that erodes national sovereignty. There’s no question that there will be an immediate economic shockwave but us brexiteers can see beyond that and we will have the levers to forge the country the way we want it to be without EU interference and quotas from their protectionist regime.

If we remain in the single market and customs union then we are not able to go after free trade deals with other counties. We must be outside of all EU institutions to be in a position of advantage.

The EU are more likely to face a crisis than us. Ireland will be the tip of the iceberg and once it goes off it will be beautiful and thoroughly deserved

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:52 pm

Right_winger wrote:You just don’t get it do you? People voted to leave the EU because of the ever increasing political nature of it and that erodes national sovereignty. There’s no question that there will be an immediate economic shockwave but us brexiteers can see beyond that and we will have the levers to forge the country the way we want it to be without EU interference and quotas from their protectionist regime.

If we remain in the single market and customs union then we are not able to go after free trade deals with other counties. We must be outside of all EU institutions to be in a position of advantage.

The EU are more likely to face a crisis than us. Ireland will be the tip of the iceberg and once it goes off it will be beautiful and thoroughly deserved

I don't buy into this nonsense of national sovereignty and the EU eroding it. But lets discuss it on your terms for a moment so that you can explain something to me.

What's the virtue of national sovereignty, and why is it more important than the wellbeing of the population?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:01 pm

I wonder what Brexiters think about Dominic Cummings playing such a pivotal role in the new Government?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:07 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I don't buy into this nonsense of national sovereignty and the EU eroding it. But lets discuss it on your terms for a moment so that you can explain something to me.

What's the virtue of national sovereignty, and why is it more important than the wellbeing of the population?
Dunno, ask Scotland.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:10 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Dunno, ask Scotland.

So, you don't know. It's vitally important, but you don't know why.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:22 pm

It isn't vitally important to me, that's why I said ask Scotland.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:26 pm

dsr wrote:But for all the warnings leave didn't provide about the intransigence of the EU, that was compensated for by the fact that Remain did tell us how hard negotiations would be
I love it how ‘project fear’ has changed to ‘this is what we voted for’ in the space of less than a year.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Right_winger » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:30 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote: What's the virtue of national sovereignty, and why is it more important than the wellbeing of the population?
Sovereignty is hugely important because it means that we are in control of our own affairs with decisions that benefit us and not French farmers or German industry.

I don’t get your point regarding wellbeing of population in direct contrast to sovereignty? Do you think that being less sovereign is better for the population of this country?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:45 pm

Right_winger wrote:Sovereignty is hugely important because it means that we are in control of our own affairs with decisions that benefit us and not French farmers or German industry.

I don’t get your point regarding wellbeing of population in direct contrast to sovereignty? Do you think that being less sovereign is better for the population of this country?
He's part, or all, Scottish and they've been under the control of another country for so long he can't begin to imagine living any other way.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:00 pm

Right_winger wrote:Sovereignty is hugely important because it means that we are in control of our own affairs with decisions that benefit us and not French farmers or German industry.

I don’t get your point regarding wellbeing of population in direct contrast to sovereignty? Do you think that being less sovereign is better for the population of this country?

No, i was saying that the people of a country are more important than the sovereignty of the country. I'm sure you agree. This was why i asked why sovereignty is more important than the peoples wellbeing.

I'm still not sure what the point is regarding sovereignty since it's been 3 years now and no one has still been able to explain what we'll be able to do on leaving the EU that we aren't able, but want to do now. All i can see is that in exchange for a more prosperous economy than we would otherwise have had, and a reduced need to defend ourselves from our immediate neighbours we've given up certain areas of "sovereignty" that we don't care about in the first place.

But I also don't understand why there's such a desire to take back this so-called "sovereignty" (defined as the ability to write ALL our own laws, i believe, i'm unsure) when what is being defined as "sovereignty" is going to have to be given away anyway when we strike our own trade deals.

Because if sovereignty is defined as the ability to write our own laws, and trade deals are defined as allowing the people we trade with to place restrictions on our laws for their benefit (and vise versa), then now only are we taking back sovereignty only to give it away, we're taking back sovereignty and then going to need to give away even more to strike our own trade deals since our bargaining position on our own is much weaker than the bargaining position of us plus the EU together.

I think the whole "sovereignty" line of argument from Brexiters is just a complete lie peddled by the demagogues to fool people like yourself into thinking that this is about "taking our country back". They pandered to your nationalism to get what they want. I think you've been fooled by these people, and that's not really your fault. They're playing us all for fools.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:23 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:No, i was saying that the people of a country are more important than the sovereignty of the country. I'm sure you agree. This was why i asked why sovereignty is more important than the peoples wellbeing.

I'm still not sure what the point is regarding sovereignty since it's been 3 years now and no one has still been able to explain what we'll be able to do on leaving the EU that we aren't able, but want to do now. All i can see is that in exchange for a more prosperous economy than we would otherwise have had, and a reduced need to defend ourselves from our immediate neighbours we've given up certain areas of "sovereignty" that we don't care about in the first place.

But I also don't understand why there's such a desire to take back this so-called "sovereignty" (defined as the ability to write ALL our own laws, i believe, i'm unsure) when what is being defined as "sovereignty" is going to have to be given away anyway when we strike our own trade deals.

Because if sovereignty is defined as the ability to write our own laws, and trade deals are defined as allowing the people we trade with to place restrictions on our laws for their benefit (and vise versa), then now only are we taking back sovereignty only to give it away, we're taking back sovereignty and then going to need to give away even more to strike our own trade deals since our bargaining position on our own is much weaker than the bargaining position of us plus the EU together.

I think the whole "sovereignty" line of argument from Brexiters is just a complete lie peddled by the demagogues to fool people like yourself into thinking that this is about "taking our country back". They pandered to your nationalism to get what they want. I think you've been fooled by these people, and that's not really your fault. They're playing us all for fools.
So are you saying that Brexiters are fools because you believe the UK will be poorer after Brexit, and that Scottish Nationalists are fools because Scotland would certainly be poorer after Sexit or whatever it's called? Or does the foolishness only extend to those you disagree with?

You know exactly why people would vote for independence, because you have already said that if the UK leaves the EU and then Scotland leaves the UK, you would move to Scotland. So obviously you are able to comprehend why people would vote for reasons other than money money money. There is no way the Scots, with tariffs on all exports to England and a great big wall along the border (if they join the EU) is going to do well financially out of the deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:16 am

dsr wrote:So are you saying that Brexiters are fools because you believe the UK will be poorer after Brexit, and that Scottish Nationalists are fools because Scotland would certainly be poorer after Sexit or whatever it's called? Or does the foolishness only extend to those you disagree with?

You know exactly why people would vote for independence, because you have already said that if the UK leaves the EU and then Scotland leaves the UK, you would move to Scotland. So obviously you are able to comprehend why people would vote for reasons other than money money money. There is no way the Scots, with tariffs on all exports to England and a great big wall along the border (if they join the EU) is going to do well financially out of the deal.
No. I'm not saying that. But you know that.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:18 am

dsr wrote:... a great big wall along the border (if they join the EU)...

:lol:

Let me guess, Johnson will make Scotland pay for it as well, eh? :lol:
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:09 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:

:lol:

Let me guess, Johnson will make Scotland pay for it as well, eh? :lol:
Nope, your beloved EU would.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:26 am

dsr wrote:Britain is leaving a limited free trade area, where we can have free trade with whoever we're told. We can now have free trade with anyone that wants to trade freely with us. Unfortunately that doesn't appear to be the EU, who value their politics more than their trade surplus, but so be it.
Oh the irony! :lol:

Valuing their politics more than economics, you say. I'm sure there are a few people on here advocating the UK to do exactly that. Does anyone spring to mind, dsr?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:31 am

Right_winger wrote:You just don’t get it do you? People voted to leave the EU because of the ever increasing political nature of it and that erodes national sovereignty. There’s no question that there will be an immediate economic shockwave but us brexiteers can see beyond that and we will have the levers to forge the country the way we want it to be without EU interference and quotas from their protectionist regime.

If we remain in the single market and customs union then we are not able to go after free trade deals with other counties. We must be outside of all EU institutions to be in a position of advantage.

The EU are more likely to face a crisis than us. Ireland will be the tip of the iceberg and once it goes off it will be beautiful and thoroughly deserved
Cameron secured an agreement with EU countries in which they acknowledged our unwillingness to pursue “ever closer union” so right there you could have a safeguard.

But as you indicate you’re not satisfied with anything other than ideological purity. Anyone and anything is expendable as long as we cut all ties with our closest neighbours that involve responsibility. In ambition it’s not dissimilar the the Khmer Rouge taking Cambodia back to Year Zero. A new beginning in which everything will start again. Only that there is no vision for afterwards - for once all control has been completely taken back. Only the exhilaration of the freedom itself. Just like before the referendum they spoke only of the positives once we shook off our chains, and never the specifics of what would happen next. “That” they said, “is project fear”. Instead they kept you focused on vote leave winning. And now Leave has won, and things aren’t at all as rosy as were promised, you’re being set to your next goal, which is for us to sever all ties. This is how they work - keep their dupes focused on the next hill. Don’t look forward and wonder what is next, and don’t look back and question why the present isn’t as good as was promised. Few people would have voted leave in the referendum had it been sold as no deal, but as with all cons they’ve been carried along by events.

History is littered with utopian ideas that crashed on the rocks of reality, but Brexit will never be one of those. There’s nothing utopian about a destination that is all things to all people. For you a great trading future for our nation. For someone like me perhaps the chance to create a socialist Britain unencumbered by EU interference, and for more than a few Tories a Britain with low taxes, zero worker rights, and an NHS they can earn dividends from. All things to all people - a classic con.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:03 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Nope, your beloved EU would.

:lol: No one's going to be building a wall between England and Scotland, you absolute tool.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:07 pm

Leaving the EU will bring back manufacturing jobs, said the Brexiters.
The UK economy is shrinking for the first time in seven years as uncertainties pile up over Brexit and global growth slows.

GDP for the three months ended June contracted 0.2% compared to the previous quarter, the Office for National Statistics said Friday. Experts had expected growth to be flat.
The biggest drag on the economy came from a drop in manufacturing output, which caused the production sector to shrink 1.4%.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/09/econ ... rce=twCNNi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imagine how bad it's going to be when we actually leave.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:11 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Leaving the EU will bring back manufacturing jobs, said the Brexiters.
Do you have a link, you absolute tool? Because as I remember it, Brexiters believe generally that the decline in manufacturing jobs over the last hundred years or so is down to being undercut by cheap labour in the far east and elsewhere. Not down to the EU.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:54 pm

dsr wrote:Do you have a link, you absolute tool? Because as I remember it, Brexiters believe generally that the decline in manufacturing jobs over the last hundred years or so is down to being undercut by cheap labour in the far east and elsewhere. Not down to the EU.
You may want to discuss this topic with Ringo. He is very definite that it's the EU's fault.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:57 pm

dsr wrote:Do you have a link, you absolute tool? Because as I remember it, Brexiters believe generally that the decline in manufacturing jobs over the last hundred years or so is down to being undercut by cheap labour in the far east and elsewhere. Not down to the EU.
Of course that's the reason. For once you're finally telling the truth. But, not all brexiteers agree with you.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:00 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote::lol: No one's going to be building a wall between England and Scotland, you absolute tool.
Dunno, we might have too once Scotland bugger off and leave us, stop them getting back in.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Right_winger » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:23 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Of course that's the reason. For once you're finally telling the truth. But, not all brexiteers agree with you.
Of course it’s nothing to do with the EU giving companies grants to move their operations outwith the UK to say countries like Slovakia. The EU have eroded our industry for decades in this way, the only thing they can’t touch is our financial services sector as it cannot cope without huge investment first.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:33 pm

Right_winger wrote:Of course it’s nothing to do with the EU giving companies grants to move their operations outwith the UK to say countries like Slovakia. The EU have eroded our industry for decades in this way, the only thing they can’t touch is our financial services sector as it cannot cope without huge investment first.
That's a myth. Manufacturing collapsed in 2008 because of the people Farage works for, and it never fully recovered. I don't believe EU grants collapsed the economy in 2008, so it's pretty tough to pin the blame on them.


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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:53 pm

EU grants don't collapse the economy, but their efforts to encourage businesses to move to poorer/other EU countries doesn't help countries like us.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:03 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:EU grants don't collapse the economy, but their efforts to encourage businesses to move to poorer/other EU countries doesn't help countries like us.
But you're inadvertently making one of the points that remainers have been stressing all along.
The EU has invested massively in the regions of the UK, (regions like our own) to encourage new businesses and grow the economy, with the vast majority of the money going to deprived areas that have been neglected by central government.
Anyone who thinks that an elitist Johnson led Tory government will invest more in the North East, (places like Sunderland who benefited more than anyone from EU funding), and NE Lancashire is deluded, and has been conned.
There'll be no "brexit bounce" for people around here, unless they're extremely wealthy, and there aren't a lot of those.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:26 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:But you're inadvertently making one of the points that remainers have been stressing all along.
The EU has invested massively in the regions of the UK, (regions like our own) to encourage new businesses and grow the economy, with the vast majority of the money going to deprived areas that have been neglected by central government.
Anyone who thinks that an elitist Johnson led Tory government will invest more in the North East, (places like Sunderland who benefited more than anyone from EU funding), and NE Lancashire is deluded, and has been conned.
There'll be no "brexit bounce" for people around here, unless they're extremely wealthy, and there aren't a lot of those.

As a net contributor, any money coming to the uk under the EU regional development fund , is simply our money coming back to us as part of our rebate.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-memb ... 5-million/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The UK pays more into the EU budget than it gets back.

In 2018 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at nearly £9 billion.

Each year the UK gets a discount on its contributions to the EU—the ‘rebate’—worth about £4 billion last year. Without it the UK would have been liable for £17 billion in contributions.

The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £17.4 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day. The rebate is applied straight away (its size is calculated based on the previous year's contributions), so the UK never contributes this much.

The UK’s contributions to the budget vary from year to year, and are forecast to grow towards the end of the decade. They’ve been larger recently than in previous decades.

A membership fee isn’t the same as the total economic cost or benefit of EU membership.

Being in the EU costs money but does it also create trade, jobs and investment that are worth more?

We can be pretty sure about how much cash we put in, but it’s far harder to be sure about how much, if anything, comes back in economic benefits.

£350 million a week doesn’t include the rebate

It’s been claimed that we send £350 million a week to the EU. That misses out the rebate, and it doesn’t represent the total economic costs and benefits of EU membership to the UK.

"£350 million is roughly what we would pay to the EU budget without the rebate. The UK actually paid closer to £250 million a week.  

The government then gets some of that money back, mainly through payments to farmers and for poorer areas of the country such as Wales and Cornwall."

THE EU HAS NO MONEY.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:That's a myth. Manufacturing collapsed in 2008 because of the people Farage works for, and it never fully recovered. I don't believe EU grants collapsed the economy in 2008, so it's pretty tough to pin the blame on them.


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1 are other eu nations performing worse than us? Yes or no?

2 has China just posted the worse growth figures for over a decade? Yes or no?

3, during the 45 years of eu membership, has the uk had a number of recessions? Yes or no?

4, is there a general global slowdown? Yes or No?

5 did the treasury, backed by George Osborne, claim that any vote to leave, see an" immediate and protracted recession, seeing Upto around 850,000 extra unemployed" ?Yes or no?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:40 pm

In regards to recessions, I've had some grief on here about that, because I've pointed out that we get them on a fairly regular basis, there are 3 that I can recall and I'm 38.
Some people got in a strop when I pointed this out.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:41 pm

Ringo,

Will you eat Chlorinated chicken? Yes or no?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:45 pm

Spijed wrote:Ringo,

Will you eat Chlorinated chicken? Yes or no?
Weirdly the EU allows chlorinated veg but not meat, because they believe it allows for poor hygiene in the processing of meats, but surely this would be the same for vegetables?

In regards to your question, I already have in all likelihood and I'm still alive.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:47 pm

Spijed wrote:Ringo,

Will you eat Chlorinated chicken? Yes or no?
If I have a choice? No. Just like I have a choice whether to eat halal chicken or not.

Do you eat pork that is sourced from the eu? Because that is often from conditions far inferior to British red tractor / RSPCA certified pork?

Are you partial to a bit of foie gras? Those continentals certainly seem to be able to put how its arrived on their plates to the back of their minds? Do you?

You beat me to it on the chlorinated veg godis!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:10 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:In regards to recessions, I've had some grief on here about that, because I've pointed out that we get them on a fairly regular basis, there are 3 that I can recall and I'm 38.
Some people got in a strop when I pointed this out.
You can recall 3 and not 33 because we tend to try not to deliberately do things that'll cause them. Yes, there have been recessions in the past, and they've all had causes - identified or not.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:39 pm

Spijed wrote:Ringo,

Will you eat Chlorinated chicken? Yes or no?
Tiny minds will explode when they realise they've been eating chlorinated salad.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:57 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Tiny minds will explode when they realise they've been eating chlorinated salad.
Wait till they realise its not the chlorine itself that is deemed harmful and a safety risk and therefore the comparison between chlorinated salad and chlorinated chicken is meaningless
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:30 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:As a net contributor, any money coming to the uk under the EU regional development fund , is simply our money coming back to us as part of our rebate.
.
I think we all know that, and I guess that just about everyone on here anticipated that you would trot out that post, (and link) - yet again.
As yet however, you have not addressed the point that - irrespective of the money going via Brussels, the funding went from the Treasury to the neglected regions. It's money that areas like ours desperately needed and money that there is zero chance we would have got direct from central government. And it's money that we won't be getting once we leave.
To use your simplistic style of questioning:
Did Burnley and East Lancs get a lot of funding from the Treasury (via Brussels)? Yes / no
And: Would we have seen even a fraction of that money if it had been down to central government? Yes / no.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:38 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You can recall 3 and not 33 because we tend to try not to deliberately do things that'll cause them. Yes, there have been recessions in the past, and they've all had causes - identified or not.
I don't think we'd be able to fit 33 in because the recessions tend to last more than a year :-)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:57 am

nil_desperandum wrote:I think we all know that, and I guess that just about everyone on here anticipated that you would trot out that post, (and link) - yet again.
As yet however, you have not addressed the point that - irrespective of the money going via Brussels, the funding went from the Treasury to the neglected regions. It's money that areas like ours desperately needed and money that there is zero chance we would have got direct from central government. And it's money that we won't be getting once we leave.
To use your simplistic style of questioning:
Did Burnley and East Lancs get a lot of funding from the Treasury (via Brussels)? Yes / no
And: Would we have seen even a fraction of that money if it had been down to central government? Yes / no.
You anticipated correctly because, guess what!? ITS A STONE COLD FACT!

You say-

"Theres zero chance we would get money from central governmemt"

I say then "elect a government that will." The tories are not the permanent government.

Did Burnley and East Lancs get a lot of funding from the Treasury (via Brussels)? Yes / no

Answer - no. The money came via a middle man, the EU. We can cut the middle when we leave.

And: Would we have seen even a fraction of that money if it had been down to central government? Yes / no.

Dont know, they have to send billions each year to Brussels who then send it back. Perhaps if they didn't we'd have seen more of it. Do you know for certain that wouldn't have been the case? Check your crystal ball!

The Tory government is not permanent.

Does the EU have any of it's own money ?

Yes or No?

Is money that comes back to places like burnley , part of the rebate we get? So effectively our own money coming back?

Yes or No?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:21 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:You anticipated correctly because, guess what!? ITS A STONE COLD FACT!

You say-

"Theres zero chance we would get money from central governmemt"

I say then "elect a government that will." The tories are not the permanent government.

Did Burnley and East Lancs get a lot of funding from the Treasury (via Brussels)? Yes / no

Answer - no. The money came via a middle man, the EU. We can cut the middle when we leave.

And: Would we have seen even a fraction of that money if it had been down to central government? Yes / no.

Dont know, they have to send billions each year to Brussels who then send it back. Perhaps if they didn't we'd have seen more of it. Do you know for certain that wouldn't have been the case? Check your crystal ball!

The Tory government is not permanent.

Does the EU have any of it's own money ?

Yes or No?

Is money that comes back to places like burnley , part of the rebate we get? So effectively our own money coming back?

Yes or No?
Firstly, in answer to your final question the answer is absolutely and without any room for you trying to duck and dive and dodge the facts - NO. The money that goes to the regions is NOT part of our rebate.
(Maybe your misunderstanding of this tells us a lot, and demonstrates clearly how easy it was for people like Johnson to dupe you by putting misleading figures on the side of a bus).
The rebate NEVER goes to Brussels, it is deducted at source. Treasury figures confirm this. The money that comes back to places like Burnley is out of our NET contribution, and comes out of the Regional Development Fund. It is as you say Treasury money that comes to us via Brussels.
But I stand by my point that it's money that we wouldn't otherwise have got.
As for your comments about a "permanent" Tory Govt. Nothing can ever be described as permanent, but with our FPTP system it's really hard to dislodge the Tories, and post- Brexit, if the Union breaks up, (which is highly likely under Johnson), then there will be an almost guaranteed "permanent" Tory majority in England, and I doubt that the north will be equal to the south.

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