Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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android
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by android » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:26 am

nil_desperandum wrote:It's sufficiently ambiguous to mean different things to different people.
I take it to mean that the current round of "non-negotiations" is over, since it's getting too late. So I think they are saying either put something serious forward in 12 days, or come to us cap in hand for a further extension, otherwise you crash out on Oct 31st.
But it's so deliberately vague that they could make it mean almost anything.
Probably a fair analysis. It just seemed an odd thing to say ("it's over") but maybe he didn't intend to say it or mean it to sound threatening. Whilst the ridiculous grandstanding by the Luxembourg PM was clearly designed to give him his 5 minutes of fame, we are all human and maybe this comment just slipped out. Although Macron was there so maybe not!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:29 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:That's not the argument.

Will there be more or less paperwork for farmers post Brexit?
Trains messed up again. Time for another post.

Does it really matter that there's a bit more "paperwork?"
Is all this paperwork so demanding that everyone will give up?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:32 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:That's not the argument.

Will there be more or less paperwork for farmers post Brexit?
Trains messed up again. Time for another post.

Does it really matter that there's a bit more "paperwork?"
Is all this paperwork so demanding that everyone will give up?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:32 am

Paul Waine wrote:Trains messed up again. Time for another post.

Does it really matter that there's a bit more "paperwork?"
Is all this paperwork so demanding that everyone will give up?
Again, it matters when it suddenly becomes relevant for most of your exports on Nov 1st, when it wasn't on Oct 31st.

And yes of course it does.

I'd have thought a man of your extensive experience would know that to be perfectly honest.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claretspice » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:34 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi spice, that's a remarkably specious argument you are making. The question was remain or leave, and logically and rightly so. Let's consider it from the remain side; should the question have been "and how do you want to remain?" Of course, if we voted remain we were agreeing that our government and MPs would to make these decisions on our behalf, including negotiating and positioning the UK relative to other 27 members of the EU. The same, of course, applies on the leave side.

It is also, logically, irrelevant for the leave decision, again, not least because the UK agreed with the EU to have 2 stages in leaving: 1) withdrawal agreement and 2) future trade relationship. Finally, wherever we are on 31 Oct it is the final position. It can and will change in the future.

We can and will have different views about the future when (if?) the UK leaves the EU. Those things, just as if we didn't leave, are the responsibility of our Gov't - and subject to scrutiny and support or opposition in parliament.
Firstly, whether the referendum asked the right question is a different issue to the one I raised. My point was you cannot use "leave had no specific meaning on the ballot paper" as an argument for a no deal Brexit, having already said, "that version of leave does not meet my understanding of what leave should mean". Which is in effect the argument that is amde by anyone proposing to leave with no deal having blocked May's deal.

But in any event, that's clearly not correct. the EU had a status quo at the time we were being asked to vote. "Remaining" involved voting for that status quo. Leave was, by definition, for less well defined.

That's not specious at all - it's just common sense.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:35 am

android wrote:Probably a fair analysis. It just seemed an odd thing to say ("it's over") but maybe he didn't intend to say it or mean it to sound threatening. Whilst the ridiculous grandstanding by the Luxembourg PM was clearly designed to give him his 5 minutes of fame, we are all human and maybe this comment just slipped out. Although Macron was there so maybe not!
I think martin is being very positive here.

What I'm reading suggests that the EU is pretty sure that Johnson isn't serious about a Deal (for whatever reason) and they want to make sure that the UK is the one that has the deadline to meet so Johnson has to face the reality of that decision without a valid reason to blame the EU.

And to be fair to the EU, we are constantly being told we have proposals, but we can't publish them for fear of them being leaked, which does sound like Ringo and DSR are running our EU negotiating team.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:37 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I think martin is being very positive here
How dare you!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:44 am

martin_p wrote:How dare you!
Play nice or they wont be any sweets later
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:45 am

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardell ... -submitted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And there we go. Some ideas submitted.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:48 am

Paul Waine wrote:Trains messed up again. Time for another post.

Does it really matter that there's a bit more "paperwork?"
Is all this paperwork so demanding that everyone will give up?
Aren't you a qualified accountant?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:49 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:Where to start really.
May’s Deal is designed to keep us in the EU for the long term.
We will pay them 39billion for nothing.
We will still have to accept all EU laws, remain in the customs union , have to abide by European courts and hence not be able to do deals with other countries.

The reason they will not talk about a trade deal is they will them make us pay the same amount per month as we do now and hence will have extorted 39 billion extra from the UK.

We will have been stitched up good and proper.
This is the very opposite of; "we hold all the cards" "we will get the best trade deal ever" "this will be the easiest trade deal in history" "we want to remain close to our European friends".

How have we moved from the positive "can do" attitude toward Brexit, to the bellicose and downright depressing, "they will make us pay / accept their laws / conscript our children into their army (yes, I have seen that one on social media) / remain a colony / stitched up good and proper..." stuff of now?

Firstly we have to recognise that those claims and promises were fallacious. Secondly I think we should stop what we're doing, and look at all of this again with the benefit of hindsight. It's becoming ever more obvious that keeping no deal on the table isn't working as a bargaining tool, and we know that actually carrying it out will damage our country a lot more than it will the EU. So the first question is; do we actually want a no deal brexit? If the answer is no - which appears to be the case for all but the most extreme people, the whole process should be rebooted, and the country - not just the government - has to come up with a more realistic brexit, and a better approach to negotiating it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by android » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:51 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I think martin is being very positive here.

What I'm reading suggests that the EU is pretty sure that Johnson isn't serious about a Deal (for whatever reason) and they want to make sure that the UK is the one that has the deadline to meet so Johnson has to face the reality of that decision without a valid reason to blame the EU.

And to be fair to the EU, we are constantly being told we have proposals, but we can't publish them for fear of them being leaked, which does sound like Ringo and DSR are running our EU negotiating team.
Martin or nil. We all want a deal in the end. Anyway, the trouble is I suspect a lot of what you read is written by zealots, knobheads and liars (joke - yes, I'm saying that you should practice a bit of the tolerance you preach and stop being so extraordinarily rude to dsr - he just has a different opinion to you despite how the rest of the gang like to characterise him). Sermon over. Nothing personal but I probably will not respond now as I've got to log out and get some work done!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claret2018 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:56 am

"a bit if paperwork" for some businesses will mean new software and implementation costs, more staff, more advisers costs and new processes. These things aint cheap either.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:56 am

android wrote:Martin or nil. We all want a deal in the end. Anyway, the trouble is I suspect a lot of what you read is written by zealots, knobheads and liars (joke - yes, I'm saying that you should practice a bit of the tolerance you preach and stop being so extraordinarily rude to dsr - he just has a different opinion to you despite how the rest of the gang like to characterise him). Sermon over. Nothing personal but I probably will not respond now as I've got to log out and get some work done!
Dsr treats me and all other remainers as idiots by thinking he can lie to us and that we won't check his stuff. He deserves all he gets, and its all his own fault.

Plus he's a Brexit zealot.

The collapse of his arguments from 2016 to 2019 is completely mirrored by the collapse in Brexiteers arguments over the same period.

All you have left is "we know its going to be ****, but we knew that, and that is what we voted for, and if you challenge that, then you are anti-democratic"

Learn to multi task mate!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:09 am

martin_p wrote:So just the backstop then.

Are you saying you think all the things I mentioned would not be true if the backstop issue is resolved, then I have to disagree.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claretspice » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:15 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:Are you saying you think all the things I mentioned would not be true if the backstop issue is resolved, then I have to disagree.
But in the nicest possible way, most of your critique of May's withdrawal agreement simply isn't true.

Most fundamentally, it does involve us leaving the EU. It does involve an end to free movement (one of May's redlines). it does stop future payments to the EU. And we can go on.

It might not correspond to your preferred form of Brexit - fair dos, each to their own - but it is Brexit, because it does involve the UK leaving the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:19 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:Are you saying you think all the things I mentioned would not be true if the backstop issue is resolved, then I have to disagree.
Apart from the £39bn divorce bill (which we’ll probably have to pay anyway) the absolutely!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:26 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Dsr treats me and all other remainers as idiots by thinking he can lie to us and that we won't check his stuff. He deserves all he gets, and its all his own fault.

Plus he's a Brexit zealot.

The collapse of his arguments from 2016 to 2019 is completely mirrored by the collapse in Brexiteers arguments over the same period.

All you have left is "we know its going to be ****, but we knew that, and that is what we voted for, and if you challenge that, then you are anti-democratic"

Learn to multi task mate!
And I still manage to be polite. You think, and you are fairly representative of Remainer zealots in this, that firstly Brexiters are stupid to a greater or lesser extent, and secondly that clever people have the right to be rude to stupid people. Obviously I dispute the first as a matter of fact, but I dispute the second as a matter of principle.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:34 am

dsr wrote:And I still manage to be polite. You think, and you are fairly representative of Remainer zealots in this, that firstly Brexiters are stupid to a greater or lesser extent, and secondly that clever people have the right to be rude to stupid people. Obviously I dispute the first as a matter of fact, but I dispute the second as a matter of principle.
Trouble is you think people pointing out you always think you know better than the experts when it comes to Brexit is impolite, but you accusing people of being unpleasant for doing so is being polite.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:36 am

android wrote:Martin or nil. We all want a deal in .........
Just for clarity Martin is not my alter ego. :) We don't have any weird sort of Ringo / Elisabeth relationship. A basic analysis of our writing style should reveal that, unless I'm super clever.
With regards to the other pair, ("Paul from Burnley" I believe is his other identity), the writing style is so similar that it appears to be the same person, but Ringo uses and repeats so many cliches that I guess it wouldn't be impossible for someone to be running a convincing parody "Ringo account".
{That's me done for today and possibly for the foreseeable. Busy day tomorrow. Home match Saturday and then off to the Baltic for about 10 days.}

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:38 am

dsr wrote:And I still manage to be polite. You think, and you are fairly representative of Remainer zealots in this, that firstly Brexiters are stupid to a greater or lesser extent, and secondly that clever people have the right to be rude to stupid people. Obviously I dispute the first as a matter of fact, but I dispute the second as a matter of principle.
I'm sorry, but being a polite liar is still a liar.

And being polite while pretending you know what you talk about is exactly the same.

The post in reply to claretspice on animal transport is a great example.

I read it, and my first thought (as someone who worked in that industry) was "thats domestic only surely?"

One google search later and I'd confirmed it. One google search.

How thick do you think we are mate?

look back on this mammoth thread. You've been caught out a lot. Thats all on you.

I very interested in politics and Brexit is a fascinating case of how a perfectly normal country can rip itself apart, and I look at all aspects of this in my spare time. In that respect, i'm a bit zealoty I suppose.

As I want a deal, its pretty disingenuous to call me a "remainer zealot"!
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:45 am

dsr wrote:May didn't push for a hard Brexit. She pushed for her ridiculous deal that would have all the penalties of staying in, plus some extras for luck, while giving up some of the rewards.
Obviously you'll never agree with this. You've entirely ignored May's red lines, the rest of the WA, etc and focused entirely on the temporary element of the backstop and said that means it's a soft Brexit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:53 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:1, dont know, you tell me why! .But the banks were bailed out and the steel works wasn't. The government's own legal advisors said that due to EU state aid rules they couldn't. I provided a link that showed that was the case. I also provided a link from a Labour supporting website that also contained an specialist in the matter who also confirmed that what you had jumped in with both feet and said was "OUTRIGHT LIES" was , in fact true. You disappeared for quite a while off here following that!

2 The fact is that if the ballot paper had said Remain or Leave (only with a deal). It means that , all the EU who dont want us to leave, would have to do. Is simply never
agree to a deal. Giving them a perpetual veto on us leaving!!

It's not rocket science!

Why are remoaners obsessed with what was on the after the ballot paper. They like , the electoral commission, weren't concerned before!?
dont know, you tell me why So you don't understand how the banks bail-out worked but you're happy to say the EU said that's fine.

You disappeared for quite a while off here following that This is obviously just another thing you've made up. I wonder whether you're really a fantasist who believes the stuff you make up or you just make stuff up in the hope that other people will believe it. It's a bit weird either way.

Why are remoaners obsessed with what was on the after the ballot paper. Yes, it is certainly just "remoaners" this concerns. There've certainly not been any leave supporters (cough *Ringo* cough) who've used the binary nature of the question to justify No Deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:57 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I read it, and my first thought (as someone who worked in that industry) was "thats domestic only surely?"

One google search later and I'd confirmed it. One google search.

How thick do you think we are mate?
I thought that the line "This guidance is for England" made it clear enough. I'll make it a lot more obvious next time.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:58 am

aggi wrote:Obviously you'll never agree with this. You've entirely ignored May's red lines, the rest of the WA, etc and focused entirely on the temporary element of the backstop and said that means it's a soft Brexit.
May's deal leaves us in the EU in all but name and gives us no way to quit. That's not "hard".

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:58 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:You say that if the PREDICTIONS in Yellow hammer materialise and prices rise, it'd affect the low paid disproportionately.

And I agree, if they happen.

So you do accept that price rises affect the low paid disproportionately.

You accept that prices rose during the 40 odd years we've been in the Common Market/ European union.

Its irrelevant whether or not the cost of food and goods has risen in real terms for the lowest paid. The fact is, its affected the lowest paid DISPROPORTIONATELY. That's the point and you agree with it!

It's almost as if you're trying to say, " When prices rose while we've been in the EU, it didn't affect the lowest paid. But IF yellow hammer comes true. It will!!!


That would be a pretty silly argument.
You accept that prices rose during the 40 odd years we've been in the Common Market/ European union.

Again, why do you just make stuff up? I clearly haven't accepted this.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:00 pm

dsr wrote:I thought that the line "This guidance is for England" made it clear enough. I'll make it a lot more obvious next time.
Just make your posts factually correct would be a start

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:02 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:You've previously said,



So you have no problem with MPs straying away from their electoral manifesto based , mandate.

And you clearly approve of MPs acting




Do you know what happens when politicians stray away from electoral, manifesto based mandates and do "as they see fit " aggi?

They start illegal invasions of countries like Iraq and it leads to the deaths of hundreds of thousand of innocent men , women and children aggi.
So you're saying that everything a political party is going to do for the next five years has to be in the manifesto? They can't react to the current situation, if it's not in the manifesto you can't do it?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:04 pm

Brexit secretary being less than conciliatory in a speech from Madrid

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/11 ... 5229181953" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hopefully for internal consumption, but this doesn't look good if we are serious about a deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:10 pm

dsr wrote:I thought that the line "This guidance is for England" made it clear enough. I'll make it a lot more obvious next time.
That line also makes the rest of the huge post irrelevant to the matter of exports of livestockto the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:11 pm

dsr wrote:And I still manage to be polite. You think, and you are fairly representative of Remainer zealots in this, that firstly Brexiters are stupid to a greater or lesser extent, and secondly that clever people have the right to be rude to stupid people. Obviously I dispute the first as a matter of fact, but I dispute the second as a matter of principle.
For what it's worth, in all your posts regarding Brexit, I see clearly and immediately what your point is. I don't know if remainers can see it too, but pretend not to to score a point, or whether they just can't see it at all. Impossible to know. I look at replies to my posts, and conclude that remainers just don't know what I'm on about at all, either willfully or genuinely. They presumably think the same about us: Why can leavers just not understand what I'm saying! What's wrong with them??

So everyone just thinks everyone else is being willfully stupid just to annoy their opponents.

It's probably time for all conversation between the two camps to end. We'll continue to press our own side to make sure we leave; they press for their side to remain.

Then see who wins.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:14 pm

aggi wrote:Obviously you'll never agree with this. You've entirely ignored May's red lines, the rest of the WA, etc and focused entirely on the temporary element of the backstop and said that means it's a soft Brexit.
I mean, look dsr. Is this answer for real or what??

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:18 pm

If it be your will wrote:I mean, look dsr. Is this answer for real or what??
You are going to have to take off your leaver glasses if you think there is something wrong with that!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:20 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You are going to have to take off your leaver glasses if you think there is something wrong with that!
Only if you take your remainer glasses off first!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:22 pm

If it be your will wrote:Only if you take your remainer glasses off first!
True, but to me it sums it up pretty well (which kinda makes your point!)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:23 pm

dsr wrote:May's deal leaves us in the EU in all but name and gives us no way to quit. That's not "hard".
May's deal took us out of the single market, customs union, CAP, ECJ, Fishing Policy, ended free movement, and gave us two years to sort out a trade deal. The NI backstop was our idea, in order to maintain the integrity of the peace agreement, but then we're all told the technology to sort the border is close at hand, so should be no problem. As breaks go, May's deal goes further than what Labour would negotiate, or what I (given the choice) would vote for, and in fact goes further than what many in the leave campaign discussed (Norway, Norway plus, Canada plus, etc). How much harder do you want it to get?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claretspice » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:26 pm

AndrewJB wrote:May's deal took us out of the single market, customs union, CAP, ECJ, Fishing Policy, ended free movement, and gave us two years to sort out a trade deal. The NI backstop was our idea, in order to maintain the integrity of the peace agreement, but then we're all told the technology to sort the border is close at hand, so should be no problem. As breaks go, May's deal goes further than what Labour would negotiate, or what I (given the choice) would vote for, and in fact goes further than what many in the leave campaign discussed (Norway, Norway plus, Canada plus, etc). How much harder do you want it to get?
This is factually correct.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:28 pm

AndrewJB wrote:May's deal took us out of the single market, customs union, CAP, ECJ, Fishing Policy, ended free movement, and gave us two years to sort out a trade deal. The NI backstop was our idea, in order to maintain the integrity of the peace agreement, but then we're all told the technology to sort the border is close at hand, so should be no problem. As breaks go, May's deal goes further than what Labour would negotiate, or what I (given the choice) would vote for, and in fact goes further than what many in the leave campaign discussed (Norway, Norway plus, Canada plus, etc). How much harder do you want it to get?
I'm begging you dsr! For yours and Andrew's sanity! Don't answer this post!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:41 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... isis-video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dunno if anyone is a fan of the John Harris "anywhere but westminster", but the latest one is good and depressing in equal measure.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:45 pm

I really used to like your posts on this subject IIBYW. On this forum there are too many leavers (knowingly or unknowingly) willing to lie, misrepresent and post things without any care to fact check which makes having a reasonable intelligent discussion virtually impossible (polite or otherwise)

You however seemed to present a view of the EU and reasons to leave that a lot of us could emphasise with and understand and learn from even if ultimately we didn't agree. You used to shout down the bullsh*t from the brexiteers as much as some of us remainers because it seemed even if your end goals were the same you weren't going to compromise yourself with their falsehoods to strengthen your argument (the enemy of my enemy is my friend)

Im not sure whats happened you over the last couple of months cos you are clearly someone who has really good beliefs and ethics and you are intelligent and very well read (miles more so than someone like myself and a lot of other posters on here) on the subject but your posts seem to get more and more partisan and evangelistic by the day.

I look forward to when this mess is sorted out and the good guys on both sides of brexit can come back together to fight for a better and fairer society for everyone
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:52 pm

In least surprising news of the day, BeLeave have been found by the Court of Appeal NOT to have breached funding rules. So all the hysteria was incorrect.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:54 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I really used to like your posts on this subject IIBYW. On this forum there are too many leavers (knowingly or unknowingly) willing to lie, misrepresent and post things without any care to fact check which makes having a reasonable intelligent discussion virtually impossible (polite or otherwise)

You however seemed to present a view of the EU and reasons to leave that a lot of us could emphasise with and understand and learn from even if ultimately we didn't agree. You used to shout down the bullsh*t from the brexiteers as much as some of us remainers because it seemed even if your end goals were the same you weren't going to compromise yourself with their falsehoods to strengthen your argument (the enemy of my enemy is my friend)

Im not sure whats happened you over the last couple of months cos you are clearly someone who has really good beliefs and ethics and you are intelligent and very well read (miles more so than someone like myself and a lot of other posters on here) on the subject but your posts seem to get more and more partisan and evangelistic by the day.

I look forward to when this mess is sorted out and the good guys on both sides of brexit can come back together to fight for a better and fairer society for everyone
"Heal the world
Make it a better place
For you and for me
And the entire human race"

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:55 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:In least surprising news of the day, BeLeave have been found by the Court of Appeal NOT to have breached funding rules. So all the hysteria was incorrect.
Just the lies now then?

Jolly good

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:56 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:"Heal the world
Make it a better place
For you and for me
And the entire human race"
I did sick a little writing that last sentence
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:20 pm

Greenmile wrote:Not really.

It might have been if that article had come out six months ago.
Why?
The fact it has taken this long has proved another of my points.
That the Electoral Commission treated leave and remain differently.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:34 pm

AndrewJB wrote:This is the very opposite of; "we hold all the cards" "we will get the best trade deal ever" "this will be the easiest trade deal in history" "we want to remain close to our European friends".

How have we moved from the positive "can do" attitude toward Brexit, to the bellicose and downright depressing, "they will make us pay / accept their laws / conscript our children into their army (yes, I have seen that one on social media) / remain a colony / stitched up good and proper..." stuff of now?

Firstly we have to recognise that those claims and promises were fallacious. Secondly I think we should stop what we're doing, and look at all of this again with the benefit of hindsight. It's becoming ever more obvious that keeping no deal on the table isn't working as a bargaining tool, and we know that actually carrying it out will damage our country a lot more than it will the EU. So the first question is; do we actually want a no deal brexit? If the answer is no - which appears to be the case for all but the most extreme people, the whole process should be rebooted, and the country - not just the government - has to come up with a more realistic brexit, and a better approach to negotiating it.
I am happy with a no deal Brexit.

The world will not end.

Yes I accept there will be issues but no one really knows what they are.

Then get some trade deals done, one hopefully with the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:35 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:I am happy with a no deal Brexit.

The world will not end.

Yes I accept there will be issues but no one really knows what they are.

Then get some trade deals done, one hopefully with the EU.
You do understand the very first day of "No Deal", the status of European citizens, the divorce settlement and the Irish border will still be the sticking point to any deal with the EU right?

Just checking, because there does seem to be a narrative amongst Brexiteers that this magically all goes away if we leave without a deal on Oct 31st
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:40 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I really used to like your posts on this subject IIBYW. On this forum there are too many leavers (knowingly or unknowingly) willing to lie, misrepresent and post things without any care to fact check which makes having a reasonable intelligent discussion virtually impossible (polite or otherwise)

You however seemed to present a view of the EU and reasons to leave that a lot of us could emphasise with and understand and learn from even if ultimately we didn't agree. You used to shout down the bullsh*t from the brexiteers as much as some of us remainers because it seemed even if your end goals were the same you weren't going to compromise yourself with their falsehoods to strengthen your argument (the enemy of my enemy is my friend)

Im not sure whats happened you over the last couple of months cos you are clearly someone who has really good beliefs and ethics and you are intelligent and very well read (miles more so than someone like myself and a lot of other posters on here) on the subject but your posts seem to get more and more partisan and evangelistic by the day.

I look forward to when this mess is sorted out and the good guys on both sides of brexit can come back together to fight for a better and fairer society for everyone
I think it's entirely due to the amount of time spent on here. The constant exasperation one experiences, it gets to you. Over time it gets harder and harder to put yourself in the other person's shoes (which is essential whether you simply want to win an argument or, preferably, to help illuminate the picture for all concerned, so as to reach an acceptable outcome). I'm sure my demise into rank partisanship on here is not unique, however, and that it can be a lesson for everyone: don't spend too much time on messageboards (or twitter, or whatever) - it's a deeply unhealthy activity. And whatever you do, treat it for what it is: a pastime. It's not real. Not yet, anyway.

Interestingly enough, in 'real' life, I don't think this has happened at all. I have good friends on both sides of the EU debate, and we can all still discuss it with the utmost respect in a healthy and understanding way. So whatever damage has occurred to my psyche on here doesn't appear to have transferred to the outside world (which is a relief).
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:52 pm

If it be your will wrote:I think it's entirely due to the amount of time spent on here. The constant exasperation one experiences, it gets to you. Over time it gets harder and harder to put yourself in the other person's shoes (which is essential whether you simply want to win an argument or, preferably, to help illuminate the picture for all concerned, so as to reach an acceptable outcome). I'm sure my demise into rank partisanship on here is not unique, however, and that it can be a lesson for everyone: don't spend too much time on messageboards (or twitter, or whatever) - it's a deeply unhealthy activity. And whatever you do, treat it for what it is: a pastime. It's not real. Not yet, anyway.

Interestingly enough, in 'real' life, I don't think this has happened at all. I have good friends on both sides of the EU debate, and we can all still discuss it with the utmost respect in a healthy and understanding way. So whatever damage has occurred to my psyche on here doesn't appear to have transferred to the outside world (which is a relief).
Very important to stress that last line. I'm exactly the same in regards to "real" life.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:53 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I see you’ve shifted from patronising (your first post) to outraged faux hillbilly. I suppose anything to avoid an actual conversation.
Andrew, I have tried to have a conversation and as you point out have tried to reply in different ways but to no avail, it is one of the sad facts of this mess that there are red lines drawn between people, and people on one side or another have then drawn gray lines between themselves as to what they want and they are not willing to concede or listen and think for themselves as to what is the outcome.

I was in the beginning when the referendum was held unsure of which was the right choice and could see merits in both, remain was to maintain a status quo and have a predictable future, where leave was certainly unpredictable and had many risk yet could potentially have an upside. I am by nature somewhat of a risk taker however as I said in this case in 2016 I was not sure if the risk was worth taking.

After the vote, I believed that it was agreed and the UK were set on a path of which I supported and started taking an interest in what was happening at a high level without getting in to weeds of every nuisance. I was initially pleased that the majority of MP's agreed to Article 50 and thought just maybe this will work. However I was quickly dismayed at how negotiations were shaping up, in terms of who would be doing it for the UK, and the fact that it was obvious that no cross party discussions were being held, a failure in the making for me. I was also dismayed at the EU's starting stance, which clearly showed how they were going to "negotiate" but it was clear they were as one and that was a strong indication that they would ensure the UK had a difficult exit.

All of the above was confirmed by May's deal, it was clearly not a good deal, not one remainers could swallow and one which split the leavers, some leave at any costs and some no we only leave with a good deal we can live with, the leave grey line.

There are numerous issues in terms of getting a deal still obviously, change in leadership has arisen in two parties, MP's changing there mind and swapping parties, all leading to where we are today. Yes yes numerous other things going on but for me it's just white noise and will have no great relevance in regard to leave or not.

I believe we wont leave 31 Oct, the governments ploy using this is typical negotiating tactics, it all depends on whether you believe this or not as to how you respond

The biggest problem I have today is a question the remain supporters have asked for years, and I would like it answered in reverse, how do you and remain support/voters believe the UK will look in the future as part of the UK, will it be as if nothing ever happened and you will be content in life and know, this is as good as it gets with all the previously perceived problems of being in the EU still being there.

My opinion/guess at todays status is:
1. We will not leave 31 Oct
2. Parties are gearing up for a GE, which I believe is this year and prior to a 2nd referendum & is the sole/main reason
3. Battle lines are drawn up for 3 main parties now, Tory Leave, LibDem's, Remain, Lab we will negotiate & 2nd Ref''um
4. Brexit party clearly Leave and will be a king breaker in this game

I personally can not vote for Lab, nothing to do with the Brexit stance and all to do with the leadership group, not just JC
I believe we have gone to far to turn back and I do not want the country to be lead by the EU & there rules/law
I like the green party as it has things that appeal to me but I will not be voting for them or other minor parties
I applaud the Brexit Party (and LibDems) as they have made it a clear choice of what you would be voting for, but no
That leaves the Tories who will get my leave, I have voted Labour previous in my life but not this time.

Finally for me, and I have said previously many times, when voting in the election I look at what each party/candidate can do for the country and not for me or my family. I believe if the country does well it trickles down to all. I think to many people vote in terms of what parents voted and decided it is a class issue and ignore the bigger picture, I feel you fall in to this bracket but please tell me I am wrong if you feel different.

In terms of your other points I am not responding as I have made my feelings clear, we are totally apposed here and it seems always will be.

I look forward to your response on why Labour and why remain and what you believe that accomplishes

In saying the above my thoughts could change depending upon what other "things" each party slips in
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