Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Jakubclaret]

I haven't researched the accuracy of the figures, I've no reason to disbelieve the post, if you want to challenge any errors that you think have taken place that's entirely upto you.

[Jakubclaret]

Hop over here ringo

[KateR]

do we expect the UK landscape to change, will the numerous swathes of yellow fields of rape oil become a thing of the past, is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[RingoMcCartney]

Hop over here ringo

You hold the fort. I'm engaged in a clean up operation of hysterical, imbecilic, hypocrisy!

[Jakubclaret]

You hold the fort. I'm engaged in a clean up operation of hysterical, imbecilic, hypocrisy!

I’ll try my best as long as you promise not to leave me

[CombatClaret]

European Medicines Agency
EU Emergency Bulk Buying Mechanism For Vaccines
EU Fight Compensation Law
European Medical Card
etc

Can kiss all those goodbye in part to the man who once said.

"The World Health Organisation is just another club of 'clever people' who want to bully and tell us what to do. Ignore."
Nigel Farage

[CombatClaret]

I see the dress rehearsal is going well

brx.jpg (326.94 KiB) Viewed 15602 times

[evensteadiereddie]

Aye but it's OUR food that we'll be short of and OUR universities that are up **** creek.

[dsr]

I see the dress rehearsal is going well

brx.jpg

Leaving the EU doesn't restrict either the number of foreign workers imported to pick food, or the abilities of universities to admit foreign students, so there's two complete red herrings. Both policies will be entirely domestic policies to be decided by the UK government - they can go for open season, anyone from the EU welcome, or not; but it will be a UK decision.

Scottish universities should particularly benefit, because they were getting no fees at all from EU students.

What's your next complaint going to be - something about having no European or international football is a dress rehearsal for being outside the EU? It's as much sense.

[nil_desperandum]

Leaving the EU doesn't restrict either the number of foreign workers imported to pick food, or the abilities of universities to admit foreign students, so there's two complete red herrings. Both policies will be entirely domestic policies to be decided by the UK government - they can go for open season, anyone from the EU welcome, or not; but it will be a UK decision.

Scottish universities should particularly benefit, because they were getting no fees at all from EU students.

I'm afraid you've countered "two complete red herrings" with one of your own. It's the official policy of the Scottish Governemnt supported - in the main - by the Universities to continue to extend free places to EU students even after brexit and the implementation / transition period. They recognise their value and don't want to discourage them from coming over.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-47989007

[KateR]

wow, I mean wow, it's back again!! Some people never tire of promoting an argument even in the middle of a s**t storm, I suppose anything is fair game to make your point even when you've proved wring time and time again for years.

Let's play the game for a little bit, EU seems to be doing great doesn't it obviously or you would not be using your line of attack, which it certainly is at the UK Gov. and the UK population during an emergency.

So come on trot it out, show me the pictures of the full supermarkets across Europe, show me the unity of the 27 that are coming together to help each other, show me exactly how the EU and Brussels are going to help Italy & Spain just as an example how they will recover without getting in to more crippling debts.

Show me why the UK not having to pay in to the recover fund of the 27 is a bad thing, show me where the UK having to pay it's fair share in to the recovery pot of the 28 would be a good thing.

then when you've clearly demonstrated how great your EU is then I might start to contemplate how bad the UK will have it because it left.

[CleggHall]

KateR - Simon Jenkins makes similar points to you, ironically in the Guardian.
The Coronavirus pandemic has shown, yet again, that the EU is not really a Union. As with the 2008 financial crisis, there is a big gap/divide/difference between north and south member states but I guess that is also true for the U.K?

[dsr]

I'm afraid you've countered "two complete red herrings" with one of your own. It's the official policy of the Scottish Governemnt supported - in the main - by the Universities to continue to extend free places to EU students even after brexit and the implementation / transition period. They recognise their value and don't want to discourage them from coming over.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-47989007

And that's their choice, not compulsion. I look forward to hearing that they will extend the same courtesy to English students as well.

[nil_desperandum]

And that's their choice, not compulsion. I look forward to hearing that they will extend the same courtesy to English students as well.

Yes it is there choice, but your post gave the impression that they would want to start charging EU students - which as the link demonstrates they don't.
(It's obvious why they wouldn't do the same for English students. By and large Scottish Uni's are good so they would be swamped by English students desperate to avoid the v high tuition fees in England. Until I retired I helped students with their Uni applications, and the "Scottish issue" arose quite a lot, especially with Scottish students, (or children of Scottish parents) living locally but hoping to take advantage of free tuition north of the border.)

[KateR]

I really hope this thread is allowed to go to the graveyard again and this time be buried once and for all.

Someone can easily set out a new thread when appropriate to discuss the trade deal, Brexit itself is complete, obviously even to me that there is no unity and there will not be ant for quite a long time, I think we all have enough to worry about for most of this year to resurrect this again and I regret posting now, apologies.

[Devils_Advocate]

Like it or not this is going to become an important topic again. The Covid virus has halted any chance to sort out any trade agreements and agree what our post transition period relationship with the EU should look like.

We have a decision to make about an extension and if the govt are going to put the future well being of our country over ideology and party politics then we should be looking to agree an extension.

I don't trust the govt's integrity where it comes to Brexit so once Covid starts to clear pressure, accountability and transparency around their decision making needs to be applied and unfortunately that will lead to tribalism and disagreements

Like Covid now the decisions made by the govt will have major impacts on us all and so if you expect everyone to stay quiet and just let the Tory's do what they want then you are deluded

[Bordeauxclaret]

Well said.
There is a particular group of people who don’t want to see any accountability at all.

[KateR]

cheer leader out again, mental picture of you in your costume and pom poms is very clear, yea here we go another group of people we can insult. It's much easier than having to think and answering questions isn't it.

no one, not one person has said no one should be accountable, all that a couple of people have tried to say is now is now the time, there will be a time for sure, let's look at it in the near future but get past where we are today. Seems you're on the bandwagon of blame and simply can not get off, that's being kind to you, ask a similar question to your Trump question, how many voted for this, how many endorsed the decision in a GE?

you're a serial loser to quote someone else

[Bordeauxclaret]

Truth hurts unfortunately.

[KateR]

Truth hurts unfortunately.

finally we agree on something but being hurt really gives you zero excuse for your behavior I'm afraid to say.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Badum Tish

[tiger76]

If there needs to be an extension,and given the lack of progress thus far there does,i'd wager it's almost certain there will be an extension,pragmatism will emerge as it usually does in the Conservative Party,Jackson Carlaw is hinting at that outcome.

Scottish Conservative leader Jackson Carlaw has said he is "a pragmatist" when it comes to extending the Brexit transition period due to the coronavirus outbreak.

Speaking to the PA news agency, Mr Carlaw said that, should the outbreak last longer than expected, conversations should be had to extend the 31 December deadline for the end of the transition period.

Mr Carlaw said there could be a point in the future where negotiations between the UK government and the EU would be able to go ahead, but added that it was up to Prime Minister Boris Johnson to assess when, or if, an extension should be requested.

The bigger question is who has the upper hand,once the CV fallout develops,the EU'S handling of that crisis has hardly been a roaring success,and several countries look likely to experience recessions in the coming months,if they aren't already.Equally you could argue collectivism within the 27 might benefit them,if they act as a united body,there is already a split developing between the likes of France and Germany,and the Mediterranean powers Italy and Spain,which suggests unity is shaky to say the least,and that's not including the ex Eastern Bloc members namely Hungary and Poland.

Against that thesis is the obvious fact the UK is acting as 1 lone state,and there's hardly unity in the United Kingdom,as witnessed in the stark nature of the general election in England and Scotland,just for one example.

But the reality is no meaningful trade talks can commence,until this virus is suppressed or ultimately defeated,So that being the case we might as well defer negotiations until a suitable window allows for constructive dialogue,if that takes a year or more so be it.

[bfcjg]

It has to be delayed. I want Brexit but how in heavens name can you negotiate with all that is happening and we don't have a clue what industries will survive. 2 year delay at least.

[tiger76]

It has to be delayed. I want Brexit but how in heavens name can you negotiate with all that is happening and we don't have a clue what industries will survive. 2 year delay at least.

As a fellow brexiteer I've got no problem with that,all our energies have to be devoted to fighting covid-19,once that battles won then we can contemplate any major political and social changes,but first and foremost we need to defeat this virus,nothing else matters just now.

[dsr]

Yes it is there choice, but your post gave the impression that they would want to start charging EU students - which as the link demonstrates they don't.
(It's obvious why they wouldn't do the same for English students. By and large Scottish Uni's are good so they would be swamped by English students desperate to avoid the v high tuition fees in England. Until I retired I helped students with their Uni applications, and the "Scottish issue" arose quite a lot, especially with Scottish students, (or children of Scottish parents) living locally but hoping to take advantage of free tuition north of the border.)

It wasn't meant to give that impression, particularly. I'm surprised they don't want to charge EU students, because the English taxpayer pot is only so deep and they can't let everyone in free. But the reason EU students were allowed for free in the first place was because EU law said they had to be, if Scottish students were free. It wasn't because of some high-minded idea that EU students are somehow more worthy of education that students from the rest of the world and therefore Greeks are desirable and Turks are not. It was because they had to.

[aggi]

It's not very exciting but data protection and the role of the ECJ is going to be a recurring theme in these Brexit negotiations (and also a big issue for a lot of UK businesses).
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... n-eu-talks

Also a possibly worrying line in there that the UK are refusing to extend the exit deadline. It was already a short deadline, trying to agree things whilst attention is elsewhere and risking another economic shock to an already damaged economy seems very risky. I wonder if the UK is hoping the EU will request an extension so we can spin it as us helping rather than conceding?

[tiger76]

Talks are going well then,and yet still no prospect of an extension,this bunch are

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-seal-brexi ... 7644.html

[martin_p]

The country is likely to be facing a double digit recession by the end of the year, to pile a no deal Brexit on top of that would be a real dereliction of duty. Of course the government view is probably that a pandemic created recession is the ideal opportunity to hide the damage a no deal Brexit will do so it’s unlikely there’ll be an extension despite the fact a deal looks a million miles away.

[tiger76]

SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford asks about the UK's insistence that post-Brexit trade talks with the EU will not be extended beyond December.

Speaking by video link, he accuses ministers of "gambling our economic future" in the middle of a health crisis.

Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab repeats that the UK has "no intention" of prolonging talks beyond the end of the year.

Mr Blackford says the talks should come to an end and the post-transition period should be extended to end uncertainty, saying not to do so is a "reckless and foolish gamble".

But Mr Raab says the best way to end uncertainty is to "get a deal by the end of this year".

I'd dearly love to know how the UK is going to "get a deal by the end of this year",given how the current negotiations are stalling,just ask for a bloody extension FFS.

[martin_p]

Our government also needs to realise that we’ll have gone down the EU’s list of priorities.

[tiger76]

Our government also needs to realise that we’ll have gone down the EU’s list of priorities.

You could well be correct,one thing that's clear is the talks are not going well.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-wont-let-l ... 7166.html

I can't see how a good deal can be agreed by June,and yet the UK government is adamant they won't ask for an extension,so the prospect of a no deal brexit looms large once again,that's really going to kickstart the economy post-covid isn't it.

[aggi]

You could well be correct,one thing that's clear is the talks are not going well.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-wont-let-l ... 7166.html

I can't see how a good deal can be agreed by June,and yet the UK government is adamant they won't ask for an extension,so the prospect of a no deal brexit looms large once again,that's really going to kickstart the economy post-covid isn't it.

On the "upside" it's an ideal opportunity for Brexit to happen with an economic impact that will be very difficult to quantify. I suspect this will have assauged the concern of hard Brexit ruining the economy and costing the next election for the Tory party.

[martin_p]

On the "upside" it's an ideal opportunity for Brexit to happen with an economic impact that will be very difficult to quantify. I suspect this will have assauged the concern of hard Brexit ruining the economy and costing the next election for the Tory party.

Exactly the conclusion the EU have come to today and I mentioned on this thread over a week ago. A great time to hide economic disaster.

[jrgbfc]

Yeah it's worked out perfectly for the Tories. When their no deal Brexit is a disaster they can shrug their shoulders and blame it on the recession caused by Coronavirus. Leaving us poor saps to pick up the pieces for years to come.

[KateR]

next thing I'll be hearing is, it's a Tory engineered virus released to engineer the No Deal Trade Negotiation with the EU, which was known all along that they would do.

The recession is definitely coming and a bad one, so I would believe it's a great place to lump in the issue of an EU trade deal along with other trade deals outside of the EU but can clearly see why the EU don't want that. It's world recovery from the recession they need to concentrate on and as such the whole issue and not do it piecemeal by deferring the EU Trade Deal issue by a year or two. That way the UK faces 4 - 5 years of trying to come to terms with the whole Trade issue and it will also be an unproven delivery platform just as when entering GE period as required.

In one way, doing the whole enchilada now allows people to look at how it actually worked and have the pros and cons well known entering the GE such that we avoid the people don't know/understand argument at the next GE.

[aggi]

Just a reminder that other stuff is still going on amidst the pandemic. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52638628

Although the Agriculture bill isn't directly related to Brexit, the standards it sets could have a wide ranging impact on the trade deals we make post-Brexit.

Interesting to note that agricultural policies are devolved. I'm not sure what the chances of getting a US trade deal with lower standards past Wales or Scotland would be.

[dsr]

Just a reminder that other stuff is still going on amidst the pandemic. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52638628

Although the Agriculture bill isn't directly related to Brexit, the standards it sets could have a wide ranging impact on the trade deals we make post-Brexit.

Interesting to note that agricultural policies are devolved. I'm not sure what the chances of getting a US trade deal with lower standards past Wales or Scotland would be.

Or indeed the EU. The EU's animal welfare standards are significantly lower than ours, and within the EU it is impossible to stop cruelly made products (pate de foie gras, for example) from entering the country. Both with the EU and the USA, it's an important issue with trade deals.

I wonder why the BBC and anti-Brexiters are concentrating purely on the possibility that we might have to accept US standards while completely ignoring the possibility that we will have to continue accepting EU standards? (Let alone ignoring the fact that we have had to accept EU standards for years. Even New York bans pate de foie gras.)

See article about EU pig farming. Seems strange to bang on about US chicken when EU pigs have been widely accepted for years. Some more articles about the tremendous opportunity Brexit provides for us to imprve standards might be good in the name of balance.

http://www.pig-world.co.uk/news/highlig ... itors.html

[tiger76]

Just a reminder that other stuff is still going on amidst the pandemic. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52638628

Although the Agriculture bill isn't directly related to Brexit, the standards it sets could have a wide ranging impact on the trade deals we make post-Brexit.

Interesting to note that agricultural policies are devolved. I'm not sure what the chances of getting a US trade deal with lower standards past Wales or Scotland would be.

Slim to none i'd wager,and if it was tried it'd add further fuel to the independence question.But i think Johnson isn't that fussed about the UK breaking apart,as long as he "gets brexit done".

[tiger76]

MP calls for scrapping of 'corrupt' Electoral Commission

Conservative Peter Bone attacks the Electoral Commission for investigating those involved in the Vote Leave campaign and notes that the police have now said they were "totally innocent".

"For the sake of democracy will you ensure that that politically corrupt, totally biased and morally bankrupt quango is abolished," he asks.

The PM replies that he hopes "all those who spent so much time and energy drawing attention to their supposed guilt... will spend as much ink and drawing attention to their genuine innocence".

I don't know if i'd agree that the EC is corrupt,but it is fair to point out that all those involved in the Vote Leave campaign,have been found "totally innocent".

[evensteadiereddie]

Any supposed wrong-doing is worth investigating, however embarrassing for the "victims".
If you've nowt to hide, you'll be alright - as this lot found out.

[Devils_Advocate]

rupt,but it is fair to point out that all those involved in the Vote Leave campaign,have been found "totally innocent".

This isn't entirely correct and is misleading. There are lots of different areas of Electoral law and Vote Leave broke some bits - the EC fined them and this was upheld.

There was not enough evidence to prove guilt in the recent trial to criminal standard on a different bit of law but this is very different from the Vote Leave campaign being found 'totally innocent'

[tiger76]

This isn't entirely correct and is misleading. There are lots of different areas of Electoral law and Vote Leave broke some bits - the EC fined them and this was upheld.

There was not enough evidence to prove guilt in the recent trial to criminal standard on a different bit of law but this is very different from the Vote Leave campaign being found 'totally innocent'

So Sir Peter Bone was being disingenuous in his remarks,well i never an MP telling half truths i'm

I'm certainly no legal expert,but generally it's much harder to prove criminal cases,than it is to prove civil cases.So that makes sense.

[Devils_Advocate]

So Sir Peter Bone was being disingenuous in his remarks,well i never an MP telling half truths i'm

I'm certainly no legal expert,but generally it's much harder to prove criminal cases,than it is to prove civil cases.So that makes sense.

Not thats its accurate or moral I can see why those on team Vote Leave have misrepresented this specific result outside its wider context and made such a victory celebration as the behaviour over the last 4 years of some of the loony remainers in this investigation has had a lot to be desired

We might drop on different sides of the coin but I know we share an equal disdain for the extremes on all sides and what they have reduced politics too

Thought it was important just to add a bit more contextual balance to the discussion which from your response I can see was taken positively as intended

[aggi]

Or indeed the EU. The EU's animal welfare standards are significantly lower than ours, and within the EU it is impossible to stop cruelly made products (pate de foie gras, for example) from entering the country. Both with the EU and the USA, it's an important issue with trade deals.

I wonder why the BBC and anti-Brexiters are concentrating purely on the possibility that we might have to accept US standards while completely ignoring the possibility that we will have to continue accepting EU standards? (Let alone ignoring the fact that we have had to accept EU standards for years. Even New York bans pate de foie gras.)

See article about EU pig farming. Seems strange to bang on about US chicken when EU pigs have been widely accepted for years. Some more articles about the tremendous opportunity Brexit provides for us to imprve standards might be good in the name of balance.

http://www.pig-world.co.uk/news/highlig ... itors.html

The main difference seems to be pigs being kept indoors rather than on straw. I'm no expert but my feeling is that this is less serious in terms of a possible detriment to human health than animals being given growth hormones or antibiotics (although the pigs may disagree).

Plus, realistically, pigs on straw isn't as catchy as cows on growth hormones or chlorinated chicken and new standards are going to be more newsworthy than existing ones.

AS you say though, it's not just the US trade deal, it could impact on any number of them.

[dsr]

The main difference seems to be pigs being kept indoors rather than on straw. I'm no expert but my feeling is that this is less serious in terms of a possible detriment to human health than animals being given growth hormones or antibiotics (although the pigs may disagree).

Plus, realistically, pigs on straw isn't as catchy as cows on growth hormones or chlorinated chicken and new standards are going to be more newsworthy than existing ones.

AS you say though, it's not just the US trade deal, it could impact on any number of them.

I agree that the Spanish habit of feeding antibiotics to their farm animals is appalling and should be stamped out. We can surely agree one good thing about Brexit, that we now have the ability to treat animal mistreatment within the EU the same way as animal mistreatment outside.

That's why the animal activists are surely more likely not to want to extend the EU deal - because it would hardly be logical to be opposed to a potential US deal which might have negative effects while supporting an EU deal which would certainly have negative effects.

[aggi]

I agree that the Spanish habit of feeding antibiotics to their farm animals is appalling and should be stamped out. We can surely agree one good thing about Brexit, that we now have the ability to treat animal mistreatment within the EU the same way as animal mistreatment outside.

That's why the animal activists are surely more likely not to want to extend the EU deal - because it would hardly be logical to be opposed to a potential US deal which might have negative effects while supporting an EU deal which would certainly have negative effects.

Well I guess the EU has voted to stop it (as of 2022) whereas the US still believes it's OK so you can see why opposition to a US deal would be higher.

Regardless of the the country though, it's an interesting area which highlights how a trade deal interacts with domestic policy.

[Volvoclaret]

Any supposed wrong-doing is worth investigating, however embarrassing for the "victims".
If you've nowt to hide, you'll be alright - as this lot found out.

Are you Tom Watson in disguise?

[martin_p]

I agree that the Spanish habit of feeding antibiotics to their farm animals is appalling and should be stamped out. We can surely agree one good thing about Brexit, that we now have the ability to treat animal mistreatment within the EU the same way as animal mistreatment outside.

Now we’re outside the EU we’ll have no power to try and improve the standards of animal welfare across the continent, now we don’t. How is that good for animal mistreatment?

[dsr]

Now we’re outside the EU we’ll have no power to try and improve the standards of animal welfare across the continent, now we don’t. How is that good for animal mistreatment?

Because by the same token, we will be able to insist that the USA changes its welfare standards with the same success as we had with the EU.

We couldn't even get the French to stop keeping geese in tiny cages and force-feeding them till they burst. Our power was equivalent to the power to improve the weather by waving handkershiefs at clouds to make them go away. It was no power at all.

[KateR]

but it's all good news with the EU opening up and planning for all those summer holidays now, people will be able to get online soon if not now and get the great deals for the package holidays sorted and a couple of weeks in the sun.