Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:04 am

Asking Corbyn to get involved with Brexit, at this point, is like asking Gerry Adams to organise Remembrance Day commemorations.

SmudgetheClaret
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:39 pm
Been Liked: 180 times
Has Liked: 97 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by SmudgetheClaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:12 am

The remainers had their heads in the sand when leave won the vote I’d challenge any Lab Con candidate to sell their manifesto to the 17.4 million at the next election it’s gonna be a landslide away from the mainstream it’s great for the UK ...

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:17 am

SmudgetheClaret wrote:The remainers had their heads in the sand when leave won the vote I’d challenge any Lab Con candidate to sell their manifesto to the 17.4 million at the next election it’s gonna be a landslide away from the mainstream it’s great for the UK ...
Reality smudge, reality

Embrace it, you've got a Brexit out of it.

If you keep banging on about one that you can't have, then you might not get one at all*

*I've been saying that for the past year btw.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:52 am

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/b ... o-14228308" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:57 am

May used to say 'No deal is better than a bad deal"

Now it's "any deal that the Marxist, IRA supporting, Islington bubble dwelling, Corbyn will agree to"........

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:03 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:May used to say 'No deal is better than a bad deal"

Now it's "any deal that the Marxist, IRA supporting, Islington bubble dwelling, Corbyn will agree to"........

Reality Ringo, reality.

You might not like it, but people who are paid to make the decisions cannot rely on "belief" and "we'll be fine" in making absolutely major decisions that will affect the UK for generations.

TheFamilyCat
Posts: 10843
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
Been Liked: 5521 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:27 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:May used to say 'No deal is better than a bad deal"

Now it's "any deal that the Marxist, IRA supporting, Islington bubble dwelling, Corbyn will agree to"........
This turn of events has certainly fired Ringo up. Today could be an entertaining day.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:30 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Reality Ringo, reality.

You might not like it, but people who are paid to make the decisions cannot rely on "belief" and "we'll be fine" in making absolutely major decisions that will affect the UK for generations.
Call me old fashioned, but I thought we paid MPs to implament referendum results and the manifesto pledges on which they were elected into public office.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:31 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:This turn of events has certainly fired Ringo up. Today could be an entertaining day.
Yes, but he still hasn't grasped the idea / principle of referencing quotes, so that we know the source.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:33 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Call me old fashioned, but I thought we paid MPs to implament referendum results and the manifesto pledges on which they were elected into public office.
I think its fair to say that circumstances have changed.

Labour don't have to anyway, because their manifesto lost

Conservatives are honour bound to, but they don't have a majority so they have to compromise to get Brexit.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:34 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Call me old fashioned, but I thought we paid MPs to implament referendum results and the manifesto pledges on which they were elected into public office.
No not necessarily old-fashioned just wrong.
They aren't paid to implement referendum results, (Parliament is sovereign), and the Tories lost their snap election, so they can't carry out manifesto pledges without compromise.

dsr
Posts: 15139
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4549 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:37 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Labour don't have to anyway, because their manifesto lost.
Bit of an eccentric viewpoint, I would have thought. Julie Cooper stood in Burnley on the promise that she would vote to implement Brexit. Are you saying that because a lot of her colleagues failed to win seats, then her promises to her electorate somehow cease to be promises?

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:39 am

dsr wrote:Bit of an eccentric viewpoint, I would have thought. Julie Cooper stood in Burnley on the promise that she would vote to implement Brexit. Are you saying that because a lot of her colleagues failed to win seats, then her promises to her electorate somehow cease to be promises?
Nope, its fairly standard.

Otherwise there would be a **** load of manifestos that still had relevance.

If your party loses, your manifesto isn't right, and it gets changed.

summitclaret
Posts: 3891
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 827 times
Has Liked: 1307 times
Location: burnley

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:39 am

Rebecca long bailey on sky earlier and now on 5 live. Have to say she is talking a lot of sense about putting the uk first. She seems determined to get a brexit deal done and not have a referendum. Very shrewd imo.

I don't like a soft Brexit but as long as it is only a CU I can accept it if gets us out quick and we can start to focus on all the other challenges the country faces.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:43 am

nil_desperandum wrote:No not necessarily old-fashioned just wrong.
They aren't paid to implement referendum results, (Parliament is sovereign), and the Tories lost their snap election, so they can't carry out manifesto pledges without compromise.
Parliament, by a ratio of 6 to 1 voted to give the "final say" to the People.

You're "they're not paid to implament referendum results" is a novel idea.

It leads to the " We're going to have a referendum and may or may not implement the result." Style of democracy! It'd be a first and unique in a UK wide referenda and general election history!

It contradicts entirely the words (approved by the electoral commission) of the pre referendum booklet that was sent to every household, that stated "it's your decision, the government will enact that decision "

Your don't live in North Korea by any chance do you?
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

dsr
Posts: 15139
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4549 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:44 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Nope, its fairly standard.

Otherwise there would be a **** load of manifestos that still had relevance.

If your party loses, your manifesto isn't right, and it gets changed.
Handy if you represent the Greens or the Liberals. Or even UKIP, the SNP, or any other party with no chance of government. You can promise literally anything in your election campaign, knowing that the day after the election you can tear it up because your party isn't in government.

Just for clarity - you are genuinely saying that Julie Cooper can tell the electorate "vote for me and I will support Brexit", and the day after the election say "Thank you for voting for me, I will oppose Brexit" without you thinking any the worse of her? Or that she is in any way letting down the electorate?

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:45 am

summitclaret wrote:Rebecca long bailey on sky earlier and now on 5 live. Have to say she is talking a lot of sense about putting the uk first. She seems determined to get a brexit deal done and not have a referendum. Very shrewd imo.

I don't like a soft Brexit but as long as it is only a CU I can accept it if gets us out quick and we can start to focus on all the other challenges the country faces.
Give it another week and we'll have summit supporting remain :lol:

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:46 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I think its fair to say that circumstances have changed.

Labour don't have to anyway, because their manifesto lost

Conservatives are honour bound to, but they don't have a majority so they have to compromise to get Brexit.
Have a word with aggi.

He claimed the losing sides manifesto can be enacted in law.!

summitclaret
Posts: 3891
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 827 times
Has Liked: 1307 times
Location: burnley

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:47 am

martin_p wrote:Give it another week and we'll have summit supporting remain :lol:
As if.

Will others support my compromise?

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:48 am

dsr wrote:Handy if you represent the Greens or the Liberals. Or even UKIP, the SNP, or any other party with no chance of government. You can promise literally anything in your election campaign, knowing that the day after the election you can tear it up because your party isn't in government.

Just for clarity - you are genuinely saying that Julie Cooper can tell the electorate "vote for me and I will support Brexit", and the day after the election say "Thank you for voting for me, I will oppose Brexit" without you thinking any the worse of her? Or that she is in any way letting down the electorate?
So we have to stick to all manifestos, even if we lose.

Great, sure I can find a Labour manifesto that promised entry into the EU.

TheFamilyCat
Posts: 10843
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
Been Liked: 5521 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:51 am

dsr wrote:Handy if you represent the Greens or the Liberals. Or even UKIP, the SNP, or any other party with no chance of government. You can promise literally anything in your election campaign, knowing that the day after the election you can tear it up because your party isn't in government.

Just for clarity - you are genuinely saying that Julie Cooper can tell the electorate "vote for me and I will support Brexit", and the day after the election say "Thank you for voting for me, I will oppose Brexit" without you thinking any the worse of her? Or that she is in any way letting down the electorate?
Two separate issues: you are comparing a losing manifesto to the personal position of one person.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:53 am

RingoMcCartney wrote: It contradicts entirely the words (approved by the electoral commission) of the pre referendum booklet that was sent to every household, that stated "it's your decision, the government will enact that decision "
Different government, no longer applies. Besides it gave that government a moral responsibility rather than a legal one. But as I said, different government, can't be held to previous government's promises.

JohnMcGreal
Posts: 2207
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:37 am
Been Liked: 1344 times
Has Liked: 438 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:56 am

dsr wrote:Bit of an eccentric viewpoint, I would have thought. Julie Cooper stood in Burnley on the promise that she would vote to implement Brexit. Are you saying that because a lot of her colleagues failed to win seats, then her promises to her electorate somehow cease to be promises?
If you think that's bad, wait until you hear about the promises made by the Leave campaigns.

Mala591
Posts: 1887
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:02 pm
Been Liked: 681 times
Has Liked: 428 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:01 am

Julie Cooper and a significant number of Labour MPs (in Brexit majority constituencies) will vote for a customs union and do not want a second referendum.

I think both May and Corbyn can compromise on this 'solution' too, so there might be a genuine way forward out of this mess.

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:01 am

Wayhey, Ringo's back trying to shoehorn reality into his limited understanding.

On the next GE and whether it would result in a shift to a Brexit party/parties losing loads of votes due to Brexit it's an interesting question.

Leave voters have historically been less politically engaged than Remain voters. Whether that will translate to fewer leave voters voting in a general election or whether there will still be an impetus from Brexit remains to be seen.

The other question is obviously whether, if there is a shift, the main shift will be from Tories to a Brexit Party leaving the path open for Labour who have far fewer Brexit voters to lose.

Cryssys
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:47 pm
Been Liked: 141 times
Has Liked: 28 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Cryssys » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:05 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Call me old fashioned, but I thought we paid MPs to implament referendum results and the manifesto pledges on which they were elected into public office.
Sorry Ringo but If you believe that, not only are you old fashioned, you're remarkably naive as well.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:12 am

martin_p wrote:Different government, no longer applies. Besides it gave that government a moral responsibility rather than a legal one. But as I said, different government, can't be held to previous government's promises.
So the government holds a referendum.

The single biggest expression of democracy the nation has ever witnessed takes place.

A new government is formed with 84% of MPs being elected on manifesto pledges that promise to honour the result of said referendum.

And you believe it no longer needs to be implemented.

We've had the view from North Korea.

Now we've got the "I only approve of democracy when it gives me the result is approve of. "

Are you posting from Zimbabwe Marty?

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:13 am

Cryssys wrote:Sorry Ringo but If you believe that, not only are you old fashioned, you're remarkably naive as well.
Try democrat.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:17 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:So the government holds a referendum.

The single biggest expression of democracy the nation has ever witnessed takes place.

A new government is formed with 84% of MPs being elected on manifesto pledges that promise to honour the result of said referendum.

And you believe it no longer needs to be implemented.

We've had the view from North Korea.

Now we've got the "I only approve of democracy when it gives me the result is approve of. "

Are you posting from Zimbabwe Marty?
You haven’t read a single word I wrote have you? You’re back into your bad Fast Show catchphrase character.

‘This week I are be mostly talking..... absolute pony’

randomclaret2
Posts: 6880
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:04 pm
Been Liked: 2742 times
Has Liked: 4314 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by randomclaret2 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:19 am

"Leave voters have historically been less politically engaged than Remain voters."
When was this decided ?

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:23 am

randomclaret2 wrote:"Leave voters have historically been less politically engaged than Remain voters."
When was this decided ?
Obviously not all, but there is some serious polling out there that confirms this.

Surprising amount of people have only voted once in their lifes, and that was for this in 2016.

I'll try to find it, but they were talking about it on a podcast I was listening to on Monday.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:25 am

dsr wrote: Just for clarity - you are genuinely saying that Julie Cooper can tell the electorate "vote for me and I will support Brexit", and the day after the election say "Thank you for voting for me, I will oppose Brexit" without you thinking any the worse of her? Or that she is in any way letting down the electorate?
Firstly - to clarify. Julie Cooper isn't my MP. Ringo suggested some time ago that I reside in "sunnier climes", (not true), and today a little further afield (North Korea). I'm rather close to Burnley but not quite in the constituency.
Anyway. I'm not sure how Julie Cooper is going back on the manifesto on which she was elected.
These are the key points of the 2017 Labour manifesto:
"Labour accepts the referendum
result and a Labour government
will put the national interest first.
We will prioritise jobs and living
standards, build a close new
relationship with the EU, protect
workers’ rights and environmental
standards, provide certainty
to EU nationals and give
a meaningful role to Parliament
throughout negotiations.

We will end Theresa May’s reckless
approach to Brexit, and seek to unite
the country around a Brexit deal
that
works for every community in Britain.
We will scrap the Conservatives’
Brexit White Paper and replace it
with fresh negotiating priorities that
have a strong emphasis on retaining
the benefits of the Single Market
and the Customs Union – which
are essential for maintaining
industries, jobs and businesses in
Britain.
Labour will always put jobs
and the economy first.
A Labour government will
immediately guarantee existing
rights for all EU nationals living in
Britain and secure reciprocal rights
for UK citizens who have chosen
to make their lives in EU countries.
EU nationals do not just contribute
to our society: they are part of our
society. And they should not be used
as bargaining chips.
.......
Labour recognises that leaving the
EU with ‘no deal’ is the worst possible
deal
for Britain and that it would do
damage to our economy and trade.
We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable
option and if needs be negotiate
transitional arrangements to avoid

a "cliff-edge"
........
Where Theresa May wants to shut
down scrutiny and challenge, Labour
will welcome it. We will work with
Parliament, not against it.
On an issue of this importance
the Government can’t hide from
the public or Parliament.
A Labour approach to Brexit also
means legislating to guarantee that
Parliament has a truly meaningful
vote on the final Brexit deal.


There's more of course but nothing that contradicts those points / principles. Cooper voted for both the CU and SM options in last week's indicative votes and didn't support revoke or even Confirmatory vote. So which part of the Labour manifesto is she in violation of?

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:28 am

randomclaret2 wrote:"Leave voters have historically been less politically engaged than Remain voters."
When was this decided ?
It wasn't decided, it was what surveys revealed post-referendum. A large percentage of leave voters admitted that they hadn't voted in previous elections, and some never, but had been energised by the Leave campaign.

randomclaret2
Posts: 6880
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:04 pm
Been Liked: 2742 times
Has Liked: 4314 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by randomclaret2 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:29 am

Presumably the inference here is that the votes of the less "politically engaged " are worth less than the more politically engaged. ? I would imagine many of those who hadnt voted before but did so in the referendum will not vote again, as their suspicion that their vote was worthless , which may have prevented them being politically engaged in the first place, will have been proven to be correct.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:30 am

randomclaret2 wrote:Presumably the inference here is that the votes of the less "politically engaged " are worth less than the more politically engaged. ?.
No that's just your interpretation.

dsr
Posts: 15139
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4549 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:31 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:So we have to stick to all manifestos, even if we lose.

Great, sure I can find a Labour manifesto that promised entry into the EU.
You're getting a bit confused, I think. I said that Julie Cooper ought to stick by the promises she made when the won the seat at the last general election. I didn't say that she ought to stick by the promises Dan Jones made in 1970.

dsr
Posts: 15139
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4549 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:32 am

nil_desperandum wrote:It wasn't decided, it was what surveys revealed post-referendum. A large percentage of leave voters admitted that they hadn't voted in previous elections, and some never, but had been energised by the Leave campaign.
Remain are doing their best to solve that "problem", then.
Last edited by dsr on Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:32 am

Presumably the inference here is that the votes of the less "politically engaged " are worth less than the more politically engaged. ? I would imagine many of those who hadnt voted before but did so in the referendum will not vote again, as their suspicion that their vote was worthless , which may have prevented them being politically engaged in the first place, will have been proven to be correct.
Edit: the obvious answer to resolve much of this of course is compulsory voting, (even if you cast your vote for "none of the above"), and a PR system that means that every vote counts.
Some of us have been advocating this for decades.
Last edited by nil_desperandum on Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

randomclaret2
Posts: 6880
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:04 pm
Been Liked: 2742 times
Has Liked: 4314 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by randomclaret2 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:33 am

Nissan said the jobs reduction had nothing to do with Brexit. Care to detail how many hundreds of thousands of car maufacturing jobs have been lost since we joined the Common Market/EC/EU ?

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:35 am

dsr wrote:You're getting a bit confused, I think. I said that Julie Cooper ought to stick by the promises she made when the won the seat at the last general election. I didn't say that she ought to stick by the promises Dan Jones made in 1970.
Not getting confused at all.

Just continuing the natural implication you made that a losing manifesto still has to be stuck to.

If Julie Cooper sent a letter to all her constituents, swearing blind that she's leave the EU at any cost because that is what all of you voted for, then that is a different matter entirely.

Did she do that? (She's not my MP btw)

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:35 am

dsr wrote:You're getting a bit confused, I think. I said that Julie Cooper ought to stick by the promises she made when the won the seat at the last general election. I didn't say that she ought to stick by the promises Dan Jones made in 1970.
See post 6982 above.
She appears to be doing so.

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:45 am

randomclaret2 wrote:"Leave voters have historically been less politically engaged than Remain voters."
When was this decided ?
As others have said, plenty of surveys have shown this. This one for example
Image

Anecdotally a fair few people on here have said it.

I don't really know where your inference came from, obviously everyone's vote is worth the same. The question was whether being less politically engaged would result in a lower turnout in a general election for Brexit voters.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:10 pm

martin_p wrote:You haven’t read a single word I wrote have you? You’re back into your bad Fast Show catchphrase character.

‘This week I are be mostly talking..... absolute pony’
Marty "I only approve of democracy, if it gives me the result I approve of" _p

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:21 pm

Parliament has lost the faith of the people.  After yesterday’s Commons votes, it is no wonder new polling shows the public are increasingly frustrated with MPs. New Leave Means Leave polling undertaken by ComRes shows that 55 per cent of the public agree that Parliament is trying to stop Brexit, with just 19 per cent disagreeing.

Pro-Remain MPs claim what they are doing is in the national interest – suggesting that they are somehow superior to the electorate who put them where they are. This is having devastating consequences.  One in five voters say they will never vote again if Parliament attempts to stop Brexit, including a massive 38 per cent of leave voters.

The way in which these MPs have behaved is a disgrace, and the public know it. Over half (53 per cent) of those polled agree that if MPs revoke Article 50 it could damage the democratic process beyond repair.  Pro-Remain Ministers, backbenchers and opposition politicians have failed to uphold the basic democratic principle of accepting a free and fair election result.

Their excuses are pitiful.  “They didn’t know what they were voting for… no one voted to be poorer.” This is the stuff of autocratic dictators who hold show elections, but continue to pursue their preconceived notion no matter what the result.  The worst of it is that these MPs would probably quite like around four in ten former Leave voters never to vote again. They view these voters as stupid, not worth attempting to bring over to their side, and simply a formality to overcome.

Democracy in Britain has become a farce.  That so many people are now willing to give up on our political institutions shows that never in the history of British politics has the Establishment gone so far to overturn what the people demanded. Never have those in power gone to the extent of ignoring the will of the people.  They can use as many excuses as they like – pretences about bringing the country back together and compromising in the national interest. They have one goal: to stop Brexit.

But the public have had enough of the squabbling in Parliament – they just want to leave with No Deal this Friday. The ComRes poll shows that 41 per agree with the statement that ‘instead of delaying Brexit, Britain should just leave to trade on WTO rules on March 29’, compared to just 28 per cent who disagree.

Now is the time for the Prime Minister to listen to British public, and deliver on her solemn promise to bring Britain out of the EU on 29th March. Trust in her premiership is collapsing too, with just 14 per cent of Brits believing her deal honours what Leave voters wanted in 2016.  If she breaks the two major promises she was elected on – that No Deal was better than a bad deal and that we would Brexit on 29th March – public faith in democracy will continue to collapse even further.

This could lead to huge apathy among voters, or people turning to extreme alternatives. If your vote is ignored, why should you ever vote again? Three-in-ten (30 per cent) support a new party who are tougher on Brexit taking over the negotiations with the EU if Theresa May’s deal is voted down again, including 44 per cent of leave voters.

There is appetite out there for a new kind of politics, one in which the people decide how their country should be run, not elites in Westminster. The traditional parties could be on the brink of collapse if they fail to deliver what they promised the electorate in 2017.  Both main parties were elected on manifestos saying they would take us out of the Single Market and Customs Union. Now some MPs are using petitions and marches to justify their anti-democratic ideas. Again, the public are at odds with remainer MPs, with 52 per cent agreeing that petitions calling for Brexit to be scrapped are irrelevant compared to the 2016 result. That includes 28 per cent of former Remain voters!

The way in which Parliament has tackled this Brexit process will represent a permanent mark of shame on this period of British democracy.  History tells us that when those in power actively and willingly ignore the people, tensions build up. It is now up to all MPs to remember their democratic duty to the electorate to deliver Brexit. We must leave on 29th March with No Deal: it is the only way public trust will begin to heal in our political system.  May has one last chance to deliver on her promise. If not, the consequences could be fatal for her Government and party.

South West Claret.
Posts: 5642
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:55 pm
Been Liked: 766 times
Has Liked: 499 times
Location: Devon

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by South West Claret. » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:33 pm

Its good to see that May has found the reverse gear.

All she has to do know is find a driving instructor like Jezzer to guide her in the right direction.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:33 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Parliament has lost the faith of the people.  After yesterday’s Commons votes, it is no wonder new polling shows the public are increasingly frustrated with MPs. New Leave Means Leave polling undertaken by ComRes shows that 55 per cent of the public agree that Parliament is trying to stop Brexit, with just 19 per cent disagreeing.

Pro-Remain MPs claim what they are doing is in the national interest – suggesting that they are somehow superior to the electorate who put them where they are. This is having devastating consequences.  One in five voters say they will never vote again if Parliament attempts to stop Brexit, including a massive 38 per cent of leave voters.

The way in which these MPs have behaved is a disgrace, and the public know it. Over half (53 per cent) of those polled agree that if MPs revoke Article 50 it could damage the democratic process beyond repair.  Pro-Remain Ministers, backbenchers and opposition politicians have failed to uphold the basic democratic principle of accepting a free and fair election result.

Their excuses are pitiful.  “They didn’t know what they were voting for… no one voted to be poorer.” This is the stuff of autocratic dictators who hold show elections, but continue to pursue their preconceived notion no matter what the result.  The worst of it is that these MPs would probably quite like around four in ten former Leave voters never to vote again. They view these voters as stupid, not worth attempting to bring over to their side, and simply a formality to overcome.

Democracy in Britain has become a farce.  That so many people are now willing to give up on our political institutions shows that never in the history of British politics has the Establishment gone so far to overturn what the people demanded. Never have those in power gone to the extent of ignoring the will of the people.  They can use as many excuses as they like – pretences about bringing the country back together and compromising in the national interest. They have one goal: to stop Brexit.

But the public have had enough of the squabbling in Parliament – they just want to leave with No Deal this Friday. The ComRes poll shows that 41 per agree with the statement that ‘instead of delaying Brexit, Britain should just leave to trade on WTO rules on March 29’, compared to just 28 per cent who disagree.

Now is the time for the Prime Minister to listen to British public, and deliver on her solemn promise to bring Britain out of the EU on 29th March. Trust in her premiership is collapsing too, with just 14 per cent of Brits believing her deal honours what Leave voters wanted in 2016.  If she breaks the two major promises she was elected on – that No Deal was better than a bad deal and that we would Brexit on 29th March – public faith in democracy will continue to collapse even further.

This could lead to huge apathy among voters, or people turning to extreme alternatives. If your vote is ignored, why should you ever vote again? Three-in-ten (30 per cent) support a new party who are tougher on Brexit taking over the negotiations with the EU if Theresa May’s deal is voted down again, including 44 per cent of leave voters.

There is appetite out there for a new kind of politics, one in which the people decide how their country should be run, not elites in Westminster. The traditional parties could be on the brink of collapse if they fail to deliver what they promised the electorate in 2017.  Both main parties were elected on manifestos saying they would take us out of the Single Market and Customs Union. Now some MPs are using petitions and marches to justify their anti-democratic ideas. Again, the public are at odds with remainer MPs, with 52 per cent agreeing that petitions calling for Brexit to be scrapped are irrelevant compared to the 2016 result. That includes 28 per cent of former Remain voters!

The way in which Parliament has tackled this Brexit process will represent a permanent mark of shame on this period of British democracy.  History tells us that when those in power actively and willingly ignore the people, tensions build up. It is now up to all MPs to remember their democratic duty to the electorate to deliver Brexit. We must leave on 29th March with No Deal: it is the only way public trust will begin to heal in our political system.  May has one last chance to deliver on her promise. If not, the consequences could be fatal for her Government and party.
Steven Edginton is the Chief Digital Strategist at Leave Means Leave.
This user liked this post: longsidepies

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:40 pm

martin_p wrote:Steven Edginton is the Chief Digital Strategist at Leave Means Leave.
Don't let opinion polls concern you.

You've already shown you have no interest in democracy.

Unless, that is, it delivers the results you approve of.

Goverments enacting the results of referenda!? For mugs eh Marty?!

Move on nothing here for Anti Democrats like you Marty.

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:42 pm

martin_p wrote:Steven Edginton is the Chief Digital Strategist at Leave Means Leave.
He describes himself as " middle class, young, metropolitan". Doesn't sound like Ringo's type of person.

TheFamilyCat
Posts: 10843
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
Been Liked: 5521 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:07 pm

“One in five voters say they will never vote again if Parliament attempts to stop Brexit, including a massive 38 per cent of leave voters.”

Good! If they don’t vote they can’t **** anything else up again.
These 2 users liked this post: Lord Beamish longsidepies

AndyClaret
Posts: 1349
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
Been Liked: 217 times
Has Liked: 543 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:44 pm

No deal v's remain by region.
Attachments
4.PNG
4.PNG (18.83 KiB) Viewed 1168 times

Locked