Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:45 am

I just assume that anyone who uses the term "European Gravy Train" unironically is a blithering idiot who can't think for themselves and so are just repeating bullshit talking points and soundbites they hear from their favourite propagandists.

So far it's yet to fail me.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:59 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I just assume that anyone who uses the term "European Gravy Train" unironically is a blithering idiot who can't think for themselves and so are just repeating bullshit talking points and soundbites they hear from their favourite propagandists.

So far it's yet to fail me.

Which translates to anyone who disagrees with Charlie is a blithering idiot. At least you are consistent

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:27 am

Your daily reminder that May's deal has got more votes than any other, (apart from Brady), and you need 322 for a majority. According to the Telegraph a majority in the cabinet now favour no deal.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:51 am

Your daily reminder that we cope so well with shortages that someone rang the police when KFC ran out of chicken.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:21 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I just assume that anyone who uses the term "European Gravy Train" unironically is a blithering idiot who can't think for themselves and so are just repeating bullshit talking points and soundbites they hear from their favourite propagandists.

So far it's yet to fail me.

Clearly aimed at me. Despite having a very high standard of education, degrees and professional qualifications in addition to holding successful posts and running businesses I’m a blithering idiot because I used the term ‘European Gravy Train’ and Turtle doesn’t like it. Ok then.

Imagine disagreeing with just about everything that everyone posts and trying to create arguments all the time. Imagine becoming a football message boards resident troll. It can’t be settling for the mind. Do you even comment on football. People ignore entire threads that you post on because they are sick of you. Imagine continuously resorting to name calling when people don’t agree with you. Feeble.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:26 am

I think to be fair, that all democratic institutions have an element of a "gravy train" to them.

its just that the media have highlighted the EUs more, and boy, is it working!

No mention on here of the Tory MP who pleaded guilty to expenses fraud last week for example.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:46 am

Julie Cooper needs to find some principles. Abstaining (presumably) to try to protect her seat rather than making a decision for the good of the country.

Won't be getting my vote next time round.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:09 am

There's no gravy train quite like the nepotism one. Is it really the case that most of the Murdoch children are better for their jobs within the Murdoch media empire than anyone else in the world? David Cameron's first job out of university earned him ninety thousand a year and came as a result of lobbying by his mother-in-law. Not bad for what we probably all agree now is a mediocre and not very far thinking mind. Set in context with this the EU gravy train is minimally lucrative.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:13 am

AndrewJB wrote:There's no gravy train quite like the nepotism one. Is it really the case that most of the Murdoch children are better for their jobs within the Murdoch media empire than anyone else in the world? David Cameron's first job out of university earned him ninety thousand a year and came as a result of lobbying by his mother-in-law. Not bad for what we probably all agree now is a mediocre and not very far thinking mind. Set in context with this the EU gravy train is minimally lucrative.

The Kinnock family would probably disagree.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:16 am

dsr wrote:Would the EU grant an extension for a second referendum between an as-yet-unagreed alternative deal, or no deal? Wouldn't they just say "sling your hook now"?

But that's exactly the opposite of what Grieve was saying last night, and I repeated.
If Parliament votes for Kyle + Clarke, or Kyle + Boles, then the alternative deal will be on the table, and that would give the EU exactly the reason it needs for a long extension.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:19 am

nil_desperandum wrote:But that's exactly the opposite of what Grieve was saying last night, and I repeated.
If Parliament votes for Kyle + Clarke, or Kyle + Boles, then the alternative deal will be on the table, and that would give the EU exactly the reason it needs for a long extension.

But would the EU risk the second referendum coming up with "No" again?

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:25 am

nil_desperandum wrote:But that's exactly the opposite of what Grieve was saying last night, and I repeated.
If Parliament votes for Kyle + Clarke, or Kyle + Boles, then the alternative deal will be on the table, and that would give the EU exactly the reason it needs for a long extension.

And exactly what they want the softest of brexits.

Hopefully there are enough anti referendum votes to stop these pointless soft brexits if they are combined with a referendum. We can see with the large number of Labour mps not supporting a referendum and the small number of tories that do, that quite rightly a referendum with remain on tbe ballot is not going to happen

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:59 am

dsr wrote:But would the EU risk the second referendum coming up with "No" again?

Yes.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:06 am

AndyClaret wrote:Your daily reminder that May's deal has got more votes than any other, (apart from Brady), and you need 322 for a majority. .

Not an entirely fair comparison since the Cabinet didn't vote in the indicative votes, so it was a smaller "sample".
It actually got 4 votes more than the Kyle "Confirmatory Vote" option, (and that was at the third attempt).
Will yesterday's options be narrowed down again for a 3rd vote? or will it be 4th time lucky for May?
Those appear to be the 2 options now.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:24 am

I joined the Brexit Party and received an email asking to be considered in their candidate selection process.

I thought I would have a quick look at the pay for an MEP, should we contest the EU elections, not that I would think I would be selected anyway but just for interest.

Basic salary is €8,757 a month, about £6,500 after taxes etc.

Also you get a flat rate of expenses of €4,200 a month for travel

Nice job if you can get it.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:16 am

Just a reminder of vote in 2016 by area.

What the hell do mps think they are doing

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_ ... um/results" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:17 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:I joined the Brexit Party and received an email asking to be considered in their candidate selection process.

I thought I would have a quick look at the pay for an MEP, should we contest the EU elections, not that I would think I would be selected anyway but just for interest.

Basic salary is €8,757 a month, about £6,500 after taxes etc.

Also you get a flat rate of expenses of €4,200 a month for travel

Nice job if you can get it.

It’s only about £10k a year more than a U.K. MP. Obviously it’s a lot more than the average person in the street earns, but for the job it is it’s not a massive amount of money.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:38 am

martin_p wrote:It’s only about £10k a year more than a U.K. MP. Obviously it’s a lot more than the average person in the street earns, but for the job it is it’s not a massive amount of money.

£120k p.a. after tax, plus huge pension? You and i have different definitions of "a massive amount of money"!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:38 am

summitclaret wrote:Just a reminder of vote in 2016 by area.

What the hell do mps think they are doing

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_ ... um/results" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its 2019.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:48 am

People talk about having a confirmatory vote to check if the deal was what people voted for in 2016. It’s a shame that there is no way that just those 17.4m people could vote in that confirmatory referendum. In that scenario it would be absolutely right for remain to be on the ballot paper. If people have genuinely changed their minds then that would be reflected in the vote, it could be a choice of remain, Mays deal (which I think isn’t perfect but is the best option) or no deal.

I know that remainers will have an issue with not being able to vote but the country did vote out in 2016.

Anyway, it’s wishful thinking as it’s impossible to do....

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:50 am

You can't ignore the 48% if you are genuinely interested in a compromise.

Just like I can't ignore the 52% which is why I back a compromise.

But there are too many people (on here, and in the country) who absolutely refuse to compromise. That is the problem at the moment.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:54 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:You can't ignore the 48% if you are genuinely interested in a compromise.

Just like I can't ignore the 52% which is why I back a compromise.

But there are too many people (on here, and in the country) who absolutely refuse to compromise. That is the problem at the moment.

If it had been 52-48% the other way around, there would be no talk of compromise.

Just a simple we voted to stay in.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:00 pm

You realise how silly that argument sounds right?

"In a hypothetical situation I reckon your lot wouldn't compromise, so I'm gonna get entrenched and delay matters even longer."

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:06 pm

Now more people like her getting real reform within the EU and I would change my vote.
EU needs to reform itself, some interesting facts in her speech.

People will say she is from an extremist party, but listen to the words, lots of it makes sense.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=63IcW4eo4uM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:11 pm

Just a reminder to all the 'No Dealers' on here, that the backstop for Northern Ireland, the divorce settlement fee and citizens rights (the key issues in May's withdrawal agreement) are still going to have to be settled before any other talks begin, even in the event of us leaving without a deal. The only difference in the no deal scenario is we'll be absolutely desperate.

Michel Barnier's comments earlier today:

[After no deal] there won’t be many months passing before the UK will start asking for negotiations on a free trade agreement or other issues, like transport.

The topics of Brexit will still be there – Ireland, the financial resolution, the legal obligations of the UK, the issues of citizens and citizens’ rights. These are questions we will put again and again.

If there is no deal and the UK wants to discuss trade or other subjects, we will put the same subjects back on the table.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:13 pm

martin_p wrote:It’s only about £10k a year more than a U.K. MP. Obviously it’s a lot more than the average person in the street earns, but for the job it is it’s not a massive amount of money.

Really I also have a different view.

Travel to Brussels all expenses paid.

Sit on your arse all day listening speeches.

Occasionally decide to press a Yes or No button.

If your feeling really brave stand up and speak for 5 minutes.

One very cosy number.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:14 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Now more people like her getting real reform within the EU and I would change my vote.
EU needs to reform itself, some interesting facts in her speech.

People will say she is from an extremist party, but listen to the words, lots of it makes sense.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=63IcW4eo4uM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I’d be all for the EU if the racist homophobes were in charge.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:18 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You can't ignore the 48% if you are genuinely interested in a compromise.

Just like I can't ignore the 52% which is why I back a compromise.

But there are too many people (on here, and in the country) who absolutely refuse to compromise. That is the problem at the moment.

People keep saying that PEOPLE WHO VOTED TO LEAVE didn’t know what they were voting for, this would give them the chance to say “shiit, that’s not what I voted for” and change their mind!

I know that it’s hypothetical but that would be the only way to ask if they knew what they were voting for.

I just wish mps would pass Mays deal now, this has dragged on long enough.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:23 pm

dsr wrote:£120k p.a. after tax, plus huge pension? You and i have different definitions of "a massive amount of money"!

Well you’ve added about £50k onto the real figure there, so no wonder it looks big!

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:23 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Just a reminder to all the 'No Dealers' on here, that the backstop for Northern Ireland, the divorce settlement fee and citizens rights (the key issues in May's withdrawal agreement) are still going to have to be settled before any other talks begin, even in the event of us leaving without a deal. The only difference in the no deal scenario is we'll be absolutely desperate.

Michel Barnier's comments earlier today:

[After no deal] there won’t be many months passing before the UK will start asking for negotiations on a free trade agreement or other issues, like transport.

The topics of Brexit will still be there – Ireland, the financial resolution, the legal obligations of the UK, the issues of citizens and citizens’ rights. These are questions we will put again and again.

If there is no deal and the UK wants to discuss trade or other subjects, we will put the same subjects back on the table.

There are very few no dealers on here and on the ERG. Even steve baker isn't he want a free trade deal and so do I. The difference is that I believe that we have to pass the current WA warts and all.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:26 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Really I also have a different view.

Travel to Brussels all expenses paid.

Sit on your arse all day listening speeches.

Occasionally decide to press a Yes or No button.

If your feeling really brave stand up and speak for 5 minutes.

One very cosy number.

No pesky surgeries minimal contact with the people. Compared to mps and councillors it a piece of ****. The only reason to have such a none job is to be on a gravy train.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:33 pm

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:People talk about having a confirmatory vote to check if the deal was what people voted for in 2016. It’s a shame that there is no way that just those 17.4m people could vote in that confirmatory referendum. In that scenario it would be absolutely right for remain to be on the ballot paper. If people have genuinely changed their minds then that would be reflected in the vote, it could be a choice of remain, Mays deal (which I think isn’t perfect but is the best option) or no deal.

I know that remainers will have an issue with not being able to vote but the country did vote out in 2016.

Anyway, it’s wishful thinking as it’s impossible to do....

And if 650k+ voted Remain then we'd remain I assume.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:34 pm

martin_p wrote:Well you’ve added about £50k onto the real figure there, so no wonder it looks big!

How much of the €4,200 monthly expenses do you think ends up in their pockets?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:38 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:How much of the €4,200 monthly expenses do you think ends up in their pockets?

Well they have to provide receipts, etc, so not much. If you’re saying they’re making dodgy claims then again, not much different to an MP.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:44 pm

More good news

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/e ... 0A.twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:46 pm

Can't see why the EC needs to be bigger than about 10% of the size it is.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:00 pm

martin_p wrote:I’d be all for the EU if the racist homophobes were in charge.

Like I said listen to the words, but no, you play the racist and homophobic card immediately.

In or out if the EU does not reform it is going to collapse anyway.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:00 pm

martin_p wrote:Well they have to provide receipts, etc, so not much. If you’re saying they’re making dodgy claims then again, not much different to an MP.

MEPs are paid a monthly allowance of €4,416 to spend on constituency office costs, but are not obliged to produce receipts or to explain what they have spent it on, and it makes no difference if they don't have a constituency office - they still get the cash.

Travel expenses are extra (first class, of course) and that's what they have to produce receipts for. But not for the daily subsistence allowance of €313, another tax-free extra, which again is given whether they spend it or not and without question or receipt.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... urt-ruling" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:01 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:More good news

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/e ... 0A.twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So thats the EU (or Barnier at least) telling Ireland they need a hard border for the EU's benefit?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:04 pm

They need a hard border, because of a "No Deal".

Like has been said since Day 1.

Reality really is a bitch isn't it?

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:09 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Really I also have a different view.

Travel to Brussels all expenses paid.

Sit on your arse all day listening speeches.

Occasionally decide to press a Yes or No button.

If your feeling really brave stand up and speak for 5 minutes.

One very cosy number.

I trust you replied to the email and your application is underway then?

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:12 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Reality really is a bitch isn't it?

It would seem so for Barnier:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKCN1LN1DF

Barnier wrote:“We are ready to simplify these checks, to have them carried out at a number of different places and have checks, thanks to technical means, which could take different forms,”

“They could be dispersed. They could take place in different places, on board vessels, in ports outside Ireland, they could be done using technological means, they could be dispersed, as I said, or simplified in technological terms.”

I'm sure the Irish are delighted.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:20 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Like I said listen to the words, but no, you play the racist and homophobic card immediately.

In or out if the EU does not reform it is going to collapse anyway.

I’m sorry, they’re a far right party with a nasty agenda. Starting to normalise anything they say is the first step to normalising everything they say.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:24 pm

Darth

You are not thick

You have to have hard checks somewhere with a WTO border.

That has been known and talked about on here countless times.

The EU has no choice, or its in breach of WTO rules.

Thats why both sides want a deal, because there are actual, real consequences of not having one.

Its called reality.

Its way past the time that the UK should be acknowledging it.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:26 pm

The amount of lazy bullshit on this thread increases by the day. Today it seems that lots of people think that being an MEP is an easy job with a huge salary and yet, remarkably, none of these people have actually set about getting themselves elected as MEPs to take advantage of all that easy money. They'll criticise MEPs for being on the 'gravy train' while rallying behind it's most prolific passenger in Farage. We're even adding travel expenses on to people's salaries to make it look like they earn far more than they do. I assume the people making these claims fund any work related expenditure out of their own back pockets, otherwise they'd be terrible hypocrites, right?

Another myth I'm sick of hearing about is the one where other countries make our laws, instead of the reality where Europe wide laws are decided by a European Parliament at which the UK has one of the loudest voices. Allowing reality to be continually misrepresented like this to the point where things are fundamentally misunderstood by so many people is one of the main reasons we're in this mess.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:31 pm

Bacchus wrote:The amount of lazy bullshit on this thread increases by the day. Today it seems that lots of people think that being an MEP is an easy job with a huge salary and yet, remarkably, none of these people have actually set about getting themselves elected as MEPs to take advantage of all that easy money. They'll criticise MEPs for being on the 'gravy train' while rallying behind it's most prolific passenger in Farage. We're even adding travel expenses on to people's salaries to make it look like they earn far more than they do. I assume the people making these claims fund any work related expenditure out of their own back pockets, otherwise they'd be terrible hypocrites, right?

Another myth I'm sick of hearing about is the one where other countries make our laws, instead of the reality where Europe wide laws are decided by a European Parliament at which the UK has one of the loudest voices. Allowing reality to be continually misrepresented like this to the point where things are fundamentally misunderstood by so many people is one of the main reasons we're in this mess.

If you'd read in more detail, you would know that travel expenses are paid according to what is spent and are not included in the above figures. You're mixing it up with the general tax free allowance paid to MEPs to be used for any purpose whatsoever, which people do add to salaries because it is unaudited and has no restrictions.

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:32 pm

Lancs, you're correct I'm not.

What I'm pointing out here is that the EU initially told Ireland that checks could be 'simplified in technological terms'. Now, it's elaborate checks.

I'm not disputing checks are required. You mentioned reality is hitting, I'm merely pointing out it is hitting for the EU and Ireland within the more closer concern. Will the Irish be overly chuffed that Mr Barnier's simple checks, able to be held on vessel or away from Irish ports, have not turned into reality?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:36 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Darth

You are not thick

You have to have hard checks somewhere with a WTO border.

That has been known and talked about on here countless times.

The EU has no choice, or its in breach of WTO rules.

Thats why both sides want a deal, because there are actual, real consequences of not having one.

Its called reality.

Its way past the time that the UK should be acknowledging it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland ... -1.3710136" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You want to have a word with the WTO spokesman, Lancaster. He reckons that the WTO doesn't insist on a hard border. Send him an email and put him straight.

It may be that the EU insists on a hard border because the EU wants to protect its own internal market. I hope they don't. But if they do, it's an EU decision, not a WTO decision. You can (but presumably won't) blame the EU, you can (and presumably will) blame the UK, but you can't (or at least shouldn't) blame the WTO.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:39 pm

I know, and it always was going to. Ireland gets absolutely shafted under a "No Deal".

The EU can only mitigate it so far, they cannot have a situation where they ignore the rules at the border though.

Will the Irish be overly chuffed that Mr Barnier's simple checks, able to be held on vessel or away from Irish ports, have not turned into reality?

Thats the withdrawal agreement checks isn't it?

If we can't get it through, then they can't have them.

To be honest, I don't think anyone thought it would get to this stage without a deal.

It all depends on just how mad we are now though, and I'm reading posts on here, listening to the radio and watching tv, and there are far too many people who assume it will be fine.

Even if we'd finished all our "No Deal" preparations, then it wouldn't be good, but we haven't even done that.

Its an epic UK government failure, and because of the hold the ERG and the DUP have on the PM, its could well be a absolute clusterfuck.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:40 pm

dsr wrote:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland ... -1.3710136

You want to have a word with the WTO spokesman, Lancaster. He reckons that the WTO doesn't insist on a hard border. Send him an email and put him straight.

It may be that the EU insists on a hard border because the EU wants to protect its own internal market. I hope they don't. But if they do, it's an EU decision, not a WTO decision. You can (but presumably won't) blame the EU, you can (and presumably will) blame the UK, but you can't (or at least shouldn't) blame the WTO.

Saw that when it came out, its the only time its been mentioned, so I'm going to go with the current information.

The problem is that the issue is the Withdrawal agreement, that still needs to be passed even if we leave with a "No Deal".

leaving on a "No Deal" doesn't solve anything, which makes it even dafter that we are considering it.