Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:37 pm

Right_winger wrote:Absolutely nothing to do with the ERG. Themselves and the DUP ...........

So if the ERG and DUP, (most likely numbering about 80 in total) had voted for May's deal last night she would still have lost???
I think you may be wrong. May needed 75 more votes to get her deal over the line.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:42 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:So if the ERG and DUP, (most likely numbering about 80 in total) had voted for May's deal last night she would still have lost???
I think you may be wrong. May needed 75 more votes to get her deal over the line.

Completely missed the point. The deal was a fudge which no one wants. The reason we are at this fudge is because of those MPs subverting the Brexit process from day 1.

The ERG and DUP were absolutely correct to reject Mays fudge.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:46 pm

Wonder which way our MP will vote tonite... like we don’t know. She has completely disregarded the people who put her where she is every time she’s had a vote. Utter contempt for her constituents and her constituency.

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:47 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Nice

JUlie Burchill is batshit mental, and articles like this could be written by Tommy Robinson.

Complete horseshit.

You've embarrassed yourself with that pathetic comparison.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:56 pm

Right_winger wrote:Completely missed the point. The deal was a fudge which no one wants. The reason we are at this fudge is because of those MPs subverting the Brexit process from day 1.

The ERG and DUP were absolutely correct to reject Mays fudge.

The way Brexit stinks as much of undermining the process as trying to bull the deal over the line, anyone would think May wanted it to fail.... this will end up being the largest waste of taxpayers money of all time.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:22 pm

Right_winger wrote:Absolutely nothing to do with the ERG. Themselves and the DUP are the only ones actually standing up for the democratic voice in the UK.

The blame has to go with the hardcore remainer MPs who have since day 1 never accepted the result and put every effort into subverting the result.

It’s still looking unlikely there will be a majority agreement on anything perhaps the looming collapse of the government is the only way forward.

By hardcore remainers I'm guessing you mean people like Ken Clark, Dominic Grieve, and Anna Soubry (among others). But how have they sabotaged things?

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:23 pm

So no deal is off the table.

What now?

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:26 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:So no deal is off the table.

What now?

No it's not, it was a none binding motion.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:26 pm

Have we left yet?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:27 pm

You'd just got to laugh at it all. Easiest deal in the world, they said. We hold all the card, they said.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:28 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:So no deal is off the table.
What now?

Not legal binding, only morally.

Will likely seek to extend article 50 but the EU has to approve. They agreed a deal, parliament didn't like it. Right now the UK looks utter clown shoes.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:29 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Not legal binding, only morally.

Will likely seek to extend article 50 but the EU has to approve. They agreed a deal, parliament didn't like it. Right now the UK looks utter clown shoes.

So it's as equally as binding as the referendum result.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:32 pm

We don't deserve an extension. We've just wasted 2 years. The EU have said repeatedly that there won't be an extension. We've made a long list of deal-breaking conditions that make a deal impossible because we've refused to compromise.

We deserve what's happening.

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:33 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:So no deal is off the table.

What now?

No deal is the default unless the UKG goes to the EU and agrees an extension to Article 50.

And the only way the EU is going to unanimously agree to that is if the UKG says "we're doing it so we can set up a second referendum".

The EU will not agree to it if we say "we're doing it to get another deal".

The EU's response will be "you're not getting a different deal ... take it or leave it. Oh, you left it. Goodbye, then"

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:34 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:So it's as equally as binding as the referendum result.

I nearly included that, however article 50 is law which is legal binding.
But laws can be amended or fully revoked...

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:35 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You'd just got to laugh at it all. Easiest deal in the world, they said. We hold all the card, they said.

Yup and in the end the good old British political system did what Europe thought we would and spent two years arguing about the details instead of doing what the Country voted to do.

An absolute shambles. We voted to leave and yet now the elected representatives of the people have spectacularly cocked the job up by squabbling and engaging in internal political pointscoring and willl now fail in the job they were tasked with.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:38 pm

Braindead wrote:Yup and in the end the good old British political system did what Europe thought we would and spent two years arguing about the details instead of doing what the Country voted to do.

An absolute shambles. We voted to leave and yet now the elected representatives of the people have spectacularly cocked the job up by squabbling and engaging in internal political pointscoring and willl now fail in the job they were tasked with.

Yep. The government were not competent enough to deliver on a decision the public weren't competent enough to make.

Just sit back and enjoy the chaos.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:41 pm

Anyone who has a proper grasp at what is going on now in Parliament is way brighter than me.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:43 pm

Government effectively whipping its MPs to back a No deal brexit on 29th March.

Eh? What?

But thats what they are doing, which seems a tad risky to me!

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:44 pm

No-deal defeated.

Matlhouse Compromise defeated.

Next:

Extension to article 50 passed tomorrow.

Next Week:

Indicative votes on various proposals to see which will command a majority...

Revoke Article 50

Second Referendum

Customs Union

But wait, the government is now trying to whip its own MP's to vote against its own motion!!!

Brilliant

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:44 pm

Greenmile wrote:No you haven't. You've posted one link that says (amongst other things) :-

"The High Court agreed with the Electoral Commission finding in July that Vote Leave had broken the law..."

I'm looking for something that says the same about the Remain campaign. Perhaps I've just missed it and you can point it out to me.

On the other hand, Claret-on-a-T-Rex did find a link which says :-

"The Electoral Commission has rejected allegations that the Remain campaign broke electoral law..."

So you really need to find me a credible source (ie not a random YouTuber) which says the Remain campaign "broke the law".

Or you can just keep repeating the same lie again and again, but don't expect me to engage further with you if you do (other than to point out the fact that you're lying so nobody else is taken in by you) - my time would be better spent trying to explain what evidence is to Ringo, or who sets the minimum wage to Jakub (that's an exaggeration, obviously).

I tend to base my opinion on known facts, rather than things I would like to be true, like you do.

Read the links again
The electoral commission dont decide who has broken laws.
They are an "independant" body who put forward an opinion.
The high court said leave broke the law, and given that remain broke the same rules, we can only assume that remain would face the same verdict if the (incompetent according to a leading remainer) think tank investigated remain the same way they investigated leave.
To use your silly analogy.
If Cardiff played Burnley. Both teams committed the same offence during a game. The Welsh FA report Burnley to UEFA for the offence but not Cardiff. UEFA confirm Burnley acted against the law of the game (but didnt do anything about it as it was quite trivial and 6 of one and half a dozen of the other) and would of concluded the same thing about Cardiff had they reported them too.
You can argue semantics Imploding Turtle style all you like, but to make out Remain as being some bastion of truth and virtue just makes you look a bit silly. (That and quoting the idiot, children's poem writer)

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:45 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Government effectively whipping its MPs to back a No deal brexit on 29th March.

Eh? What?

But thats what they are doing, which seems a tad risky to me!

*Seriously*?

Holy crap. Theresa May just spent two years saying (rightfully) that "no deal" would be a catastrophe!

You couldn't make it up.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:48 pm

Looks like it

But its genuinely impossible to tell but because of the Spelman compromise, the Govt changed it advice last minute.

Have no clue, along with everybody else.

Real chance we could vote for something here that no one actually wants because no one knows what "Yes" or "No" means.

Not fit for purpose is putting it nicely

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:48 pm

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:50 pm

Defo 4 government ministers abstaining on it, which means they have to resign.

Gauke, Rudd and two others who I can't remember!

Honestly, you wouldn't trust this lot to run a bath

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:51 pm

We effectively don’t have a Government worthy of the name at he moment. What a shocking pass we have come to.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:51 pm

Ayes 321 No 278 - Govt loses on its own motion, Parliament says we can never leave the EU unless there is a deal

I have no idea what that means legally, but that is the result of that vote.

Back to trying to find out what is going on!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:53 pm

Right update

"Th now-amended government motion has passed. Theoretically it takes no deal off the table forever but it isn't legally binding. Huge political significance though."

So not legally binding, but means there is the majority to make it legally binding. How that happens is probably what happens next.

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:56 pm

At this point, while I greatly dislike the democratic implications, there has to be a second referendum.

"No deal" Brexit or Remain in the EU.

The government simply isn't capable enough to agree a workable deal.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:57 pm

Basically, the only deal is Mays deal.

No point pretending that the ERG can pass something. They have to back the 3rd attempt at Mays deal (if that even happens)

But other than that, no clue!

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:57 pm

Surely the cabinet members who voted against the Government whip have to resign?

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:58 pm

Damo wrote:Read the links again
The electoral commission dont decide who has broken laws.
They are an "independant" body who put forward an opinion.
The high court said leave broke the law, and given that remain broke the same rules, we can only assume that remain would face the same verdict if the (incompetent according to a leading remainer) think tank investigated remain the same way they investigated leave.
To use your silly analogy.
If Cardiff played Burnley. Both teams committed the same offence during a game. The Welsh FA report Burnley to UEFA for the offence but not Cardiff. UEFA confirm Burnley acted against the law of the game (but didnt do anything about it as it was quite trivial and 6 of one and half a dozen of the other) and would of concluded the same thing about Cardiff had they reported them too.
You can argue semantics Imploding Turtle style all you like, but to make out Remain as being some bastion of truth and virtue just makes you look a bit silly. (That and quoting the idiot, children's poem writer)

So it's all a big conspiracy because the independent (no need for scare-quotes) Electoral Commission are corrupt partisans? You should just have said that in the first place. Could have saved us both a lot of time.

Were the Illuminati involved too?

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:05 pm

claret_in_exile wrote:At this point, while I greatly dislike the democratic implications, there has to be a second referendum.

"No deal" Brexit or Remain in the EU.

The government simply isn't capable enough to agree a workable deal.

No deal vs Remain referendum I'll take that all day ....massive win for No deal..

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:06 pm

Wtf was May doing giving a free vote on something so crucial ? Surely this was the only bargaining tool left (no deal) for the final last minute showdown with Drunker and co . This is an absolute staggerining betrayal of leave voters by the political classes .

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:07 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:No deal vs Remain referendum I'll take that all day ....massive win for No deal..

I hope you're wrong. Either way, those are the only two options, surely?

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:08 pm

She's running the clock down and this has been her policy all along. May's deal or no deal, unless the HoC comes up with a consensus deal of some kind or another, but the chances of that happening are slim to none.

fanzone · Post by **fanzone** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:09 pm

The loudest cheer from them in parliament tonight was for the option of staying in Europe - Disgraceful

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:09 pm

"But if MPs do not vote for a deal, and do not want a no-deal Brexit, there will have to be a longer extension. And that would require the UK to take part in the European elections."

Imagine the chaos.

There is absolutely no way the EU will agree to that.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:09 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:Wtf was May doing giving a free vote on something so crucial ? Surely this was the only bargaining tool left (no deal) for the final last minute showdown with Drunker and co . This is an absolute staggerining betrayal of leave voters by the political classes .

It isn't legally binding. The only thing that is, is the default position on March 29th is leave with no deal. (Thanks to Gina Millar)
They government will now have to get their fingers out and start bending some rules if there is to be any other option

Tricky Trevor · Post by **Tricky Trevor** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:10 pm

So now expressing an opinion is disgraceful. Thank you for that, Adolf.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:11 pm

Greenmile wrote:So it's all a big conspiracy because the independent (no need for scare-quotes) Electoral Commission are corrupt partisans? You should just have said that in the first place. Could have saved us both a lot of time.

Were the Illuminati involved too?

That, or they are just incompetent. Like Lord Addonis says

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:12 pm

Labour party is slowly dieing any way.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:13 pm

fanzone wrote:The loudest cheer from them in parliament tonight was for the option of staying in Europe - Disgraceful

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:14 pm

claret_in_exile wrote:"But if MPs do not vote for a deal, and do not want a no-deal Brexit, there will have to be a longer extension. And that would require the UK to take part in the European elections."
Imagine the chaos.
There is absolutely no way the EU will agree to that.

Suggestion the EU might not allow a short term extension but would allow a long one. Knowing that would likely involve a General Election or 2nd Referendum within that time.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:15 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:We don't deserve an extension. We've just wasted 2 years. The EU have said repeatedly that there won't be an extension. We've made a long list of deal-breaking conditions that make a deal impossible because we've refused to compromise.

We deserve what's happening.

How the hell do you compromise on a deal that was utterly shite to begin with...
The referendum was IN or OUT, there were no addendum.
May has painted herself, and Britain into a corner by trying to appease everybody Remainers, Leavers and the EU. That was never going to be possible, never. If she had comprehended from the beginning that some people were going to spit their dummies whatever, she should have been prepared to go ahead anyway and let them spit.
There isn't any position in Parliament that would achieve 51% support, so giving Parliament a vote should only have been made with the understanding that failure to get a majority support for a deal, that is also acceptable to the EU, means leaving without a deal.
MPs are supposed to be Public Servants, and act on our behalf, if they can't make their mind up they should go with the public, and the public voted leave. Anything less is undemocratic and would be a step too far by self interested party politicians.

It is a mess, and we do deserve whats happening, but it could have been avoided if negotiations were carried out by people who actually believed in it. No deal may well have been the same outcome, but we wouldn't have had the bullshit we've had to put up with for the last 2 years.

The way forward, hopefully will be taken out of our hands. The EU said there would be no extension, I hope they keep their word for a change. The only way the people will get what they voted for, is if the undemocratic EU kick us out. Who'd have bloody believed that 2 years ago.

Parliaments are like everything else, some good, some bad. Successful Governments, failing Governments, but the present incumbents are the biggest shower of **** in the history of this country, since the rule of Oliver Cromwell. Sadly they are so insulated that they don't even realise the utter contempt that the country holds them in.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:15 pm

You know the lunatics have truly taken over the asylum when a govt whips against its own motion. I mean, how crazy is that?

This govt is finished and what we are now witnessing are its death throes.

fanzone · Post by **fanzone** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:17 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:So now expressing an opinion is disgraceful. Thank you for that, Adolf.

It is considering labour speak for majority of leave voters - disgraceful

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:19 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:You know the lunatics have truly taken over the asylum when a govt whips against its own motion. I mean, how crazy is that?

This govt is finished and what we are now witnessing are its death throes.

Hopefully not just this govt but the Tories as a party.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:19 pm

fanzone wrote:It is considering labour speak for majority of leave voters - disgraceful

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:19 pm

Complete horseshit.

You've embarrassed yourself with that pathetic comparison.

Not at all (apologies for the late reply, been trying to work out what is going on), she can't say that in the political situation we are now in, its deeply unhelpful and borderline incitement.