Polls I saw had it fairly much even. Are you counting the SNP and Plaid Cymru? Obviously there is an argument that they are more national parties but they have been very pro-remain in their views so I can't see many who want to leave voting for them.Guich wrote:I think the latest polls have the strong leave at 34 and strong remain at 28 - which would mean remain would need to pick up around 60 per cent of the rest to win a referendum.
That's a big ask and I'd guess you're probably right, nothing has changed in three years, apart from opinions hardening.
Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
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Last edited by If it be your will on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Nothing wrong with your analysis but based on current "polls" it doesn't contradict my simplistic point.Guich wrote:I'm not sure it's that simple Nildesp.
My perception is that No Deal Brexiteers will mainly vote UKIP or Brexit, and some will vote Conservative and some Labour.
Brexit will also attract voters disgusted by the conduct of the two main parties.
Most Conservative votes will come from TM deal supporters.
Labour votes will come from 'dyed in the wool' Labour supporters, some leave voters, some remain.
The big remainers will vote Green and Libdem with a few for Change UK.
Ireland, Wales and Scotland have their nationalistic considerations to complicate matters further.
So I think the interesting measure will be Brexit/UKIP versus LibDem/Green/Change as the clearest measure of the strength of feeling on either side.
Effectively we have a 3 way split divided into roughly equal measures
Brexit / UKip approx 33%
Remain (Coalition) Lib Dems, Greens, Change Uk, SNP, Plaid Cymru approx 33%
and traditional Labour / Conservatives 33%
This leaves us more divided than ever, but it does suggest that approx two thirds don't support a "no deal" brexit, since the brexit party option is the only one that offers this, and it also tell us that is now considerable support for a Confirmatory Vote, given that this is now Labour Policy. (Support for a Confirmatory vote was in single figure percentages this time last year.)
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
RingoMcCartney wrote:Dr Ruth Bender, Associate Professor of Corporate Financial Strategy, was interviewed on Radio 5 Live Breakfast show on 31st March,
She said when asked
Do EU rules prevent state aid to save British Steel?
"Unfortunately, yes. The fact that all the economic factors go against the UK steel industry is not relevant, nor is the potentially devastating impact on the wider local economy were it to close. The EU has already ruled on this: in January 2016 the competition commissioner ruled that the Belgian government had illegally provided €211m to steel companies in one of its depressed regions, and ordered that the money be repaid. She also announced an investigation into €2bn of similar aid given by the Italian government to support its steel industry."
"The EU takes the view that State aid cannot be used if it distorts competition, and that EU regional funding is available to help with the social consequences of closing down industries that are uncompetitive."
I wasn't aware that Ruth Bender was a "right-winger". Nevertheless, she as an Associate Professor of Corporate Financial Strategy, confirms that state aid rules set by the EU has prevented the UK government from saving British Steel.
https://youtu.be/LKu43pLaItM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Greg Clark turned down the company's funding request on advice it would have broken state aid legislation
https://news.sky.com/video/clark-no-the" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... l-11726187
Sky news confirming The EU does not allow state support of a business if it would distort competition in the single market.
What if the company and the government were discussing a government loan, and they couldn't come to an agreement? Would it still be all the EU's fault?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
That tends to be what English right wing political groups do, though in Guich's case I think it was simply an oversight.martin_p wrote:Only if you discount Scotland, Wales and NI.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
If it's a "no" to - Does current EU regulation mean that giving state aid to British Steel would distort the market. Consequently, the government is unable to give State aid to save British Steel due to EU law?If it be your will wrote:Very briefly:
Subsidising British Steel: Not allowed
Renationalising British Steel: Allowed
Renationalising then subsidising (or offering any other market advantage): Not allowed
You could play around with the exemptions to state aid rules, but you'd run the risk of every steel company in the EU taking you to court.
Could you please explain the above quote?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Also , if the EU isn't stopping the UK government from saving British Steel due to its state aid rules.If it be your will wrote:All else being equal - no (probably)
I'm really not trying to use this as an argument against the EU. But the only realistic way of maintaining an active domestic steel industry would be protectionism - either import duties or state aid. Currently the EU decide the former, and the latter is forbidden in EU law.
A bigger question is should we be propping up an unprofitable company anyway? Believers in globalised free markets would argue 'absolutely not'. But if we lost all expertise in steel making, and in 20 years we suddenly needed to make our own steel again, we'd be in trouble. But then you could say that about every sector.
Why did you say the above please?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
No. That'd be a lack of the 2 sides coming to a satisfactory agreement.Juxtaposition wrote:What if the company and the government were discussing a government loan, and they couldn't come to an agreement? Would it still be all the EU's fault?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
So you ask IIBYW a specific question (probably thinking he is going to give you the answer you want) and he answers it in simple terms as you asked him to. You then dig out an old post of his from 2 pages ago and start questioning about that insteadRingoMcCartney wrote:If it's a "no" to - Does current EU regulation mean that giving state aid to British Steel would distort the market. Consequently, the government is unable to give State aid to save British Steel due to EU law?
Could you please explain the above quote?
Why don't you carry on the conversation about the question you asked rather than going off at a tangent now you haven't got the response you were hoping for?
Remind me again who is the one who's been discredited on here time and time again?
#rattled
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
RingoMcCartney wrote:No. That'd be a lack of the 2 sides coming to a satisfactory agreement.
Ok. Because that's literally what happened.
So you agree this isn't the EU's fault.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
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Last edited by If it be your will on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
aggi wrote:Neither of these things are what you originally said. Maybe you think they are because your viewpoint is very simplistic (why else would you keep changing your point) but in reality whilst you've been trying to prove your original point (which has already been answered) you've asked multiple, quite different questions.
There's no point in discussing it any further as any answer will result in the inevitable
When somebody has been given multiple chances to provide a simple yes or no answer, and they're reduced to saying "it's too simplistic" . Then, despite claiming they have answered refuse to simply repost the answer, because they can't, cos they haven't! Then further reduced to posting juvenile memes. You know it's game over for them.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
If it be your will wrote:Oh, go on then:
The confusion is your second question was actually two questions, so my answer is:
1)No
2)Part A: yes; Part B: no
(Jesus. What am I doing taking part in this nonsense???)
So if , Does current EU regulation mean that giving state aid to British Steel would distort the market? - yes
And the government is unable to give State aid to save British Steel due to EU law? No?
Why did you say "I'm really not trying to use this as an argument against the EU. But the only realistic way of maintaining an active domestic steel industry would be protectionism - either import duties or state aid. Currently the EU decide the former, and the latter is forbidden in EU law." and would you not "run the risk of every steel company in the EU taking you to court." As you previously said this would be possible.?
You appear to be contradicting yourself IWBYW.
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu May 23, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
You got a simplistic ‘no’ from IIBYW and proceeded to ask him a load more questions. It’s almost as if the simplistic ‘no’ he gave you was too simplistic!RingoMcCartney wrote:When somebody has been given multiple chances to provide a simple yes or no answer, and they're reduced to saying "it's too simplistic" . Then, despite claiming they have answered refuse to simply repost the answer, because they can't, cos they haven't! Then further reduced to posting juvenile memes. You know it's game over for them.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It's not the EU'S fault they cannot come to an agreement.Juxtaposition wrote:Ok. Because that's literally what happened.
So you agree this isn't the EU's fault.
That's right. As I agree.
But, given the stalemate in which we find ourselves, the government is unable to give State aid to save British Steel due to EU law.
2 entirely different things.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
martin_p wrote:I gave a straight answer to the question you asked but you’ve changed the question again! No, the EU did not block it because the bail out was structured to meet EU law.
I’m genuinely confused over what point you’re actually trying to make.
Finally we're getting somewhere!
. So you agree with the first part of my post-
"2008 - Labour bailed out the banks and saves London based bankers jobs. Costing the nation billions.
The EU did not block it"
Part 2
Do current EU laws block the UK government from giving state aid to save British Steel?
I'm not asking if those rules can be broken, and you'd be prepared to break them.
I'm simply asking, do current EU laws block the UK government from giving state aid to save British Steel?
Yes
Or
No?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
RingoMcCartney wrote:Perhaps you would answer IWBYW.
In 2008 did the EU block the UK government from bailing out the banks.
And I'm not being facetious. In plain English, no caveats just a "simplistic" Yes or no. Did they?
Secondly,
Does current EU regulation mean that giving state aid to British Steel would distort the market. Consequently, the government is unable to give State aid to save British Steel due to EU law?
Again no attempt at belittling, just a concise yes or no?
If it be your will wrote:No;No.
The government is able to give state aid to British Steel just like it did with the banks. It would be challenged successfully by the EU just like it was with the banks. Does this finally end it?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Devils_Advocate wrote:
If it be your will wrote:All else being equal - no (probably)
I'm really not trying to use this as an argument against the EU. But the only realistic way of maintaining an active domestic steel industry would be protectionism - either import duties or state aid. Currently the EU decide the former, and the latter is forbidden in EU law.
If it be your will wrote:
:Very briefly:
Subsidising British Steel: Not allowed
Renationalising British Steel: Allowed
Renationalising then subsidising (or offering any other market advantage): Not allowed
You could play around with the exemptions to state aid rules, but you'd run the risk of every steel company in the EU taking you to court.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
You can’t help yourself- he sucks you in with his childlike simplicity (or stupidity) and you think you are helping him understand!!If it be your will wrote:
(Jesus. What am I doing taking part in this nonsense???)
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Dr Ruth Bender, Associate Professor of Corporate Financial Strategy, was interviewed on Radio 5 Live Breakfast show on 31st March,
She said when asked
Do EU rules prevent state aid to save British Steel?
"Unfortunately, yes. The fact that all the economic factors go against the UK steel industry is not relevant, nor is the potentially devastating impact on the wider local economy were it to close. The EU has already ruled on this: in January 2016 the competition commissioner ruled that the Belgian government had illegally provided €211m to steel companies in one of its depressed regions, and ordered that the money be repaid. She also announced an investigation into €2bn of similar aid given by the Italian government to support its steel industry."
"The EU takes the view that State aid cannot be used if it distorts competition, and that EU regional funding is available to help with the social consequences of closing down industries that are uncompetitive."
https://youtu.be/LKu43pLaItM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Greg Clark turned down the company's funding request on advice it would have broken state aid legislation
https://news.sky.com/video/clark-no-the" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... l-11726187
Sky news confirming The EU does not allow state support of a business if it would distort competition in the single market.
She said when asked
Do EU rules prevent state aid to save British Steel?
"Unfortunately, yes. The fact that all the economic factors go against the UK steel industry is not relevant, nor is the potentially devastating impact on the wider local economy were it to close. The EU has already ruled on this: in January 2016 the competition commissioner ruled that the Belgian government had illegally provided €211m to steel companies in one of its depressed regions, and ordered that the money be repaid. She also announced an investigation into €2bn of similar aid given by the Italian government to support its steel industry."
"The EU takes the view that State aid cannot be used if it distorts competition, and that EU regional funding is available to help with the social consequences of closing down industries that are uncompetitive."
https://youtu.be/LKu43pLaItM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Greg Clark turned down the company's funding request on advice it would have broken state aid legislation
https://news.sky.com/video/clark-no-the" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... l-11726187
Sky news confirming The EU does not allow state support of a business if it would distort competition in the single market.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
My mistake I thought you just wanted an answer in plain English, no caveats and a simplistic yes or no so was trying to help.
As you were!!
As you were!!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Burnley Ace wrote:You can’t help yourself- he sucks you in with his childlike simplicity (or stupidity) and you think you are helping him understand!!
This is a new approach.
The lofty, "it's too simplistic to answer " technique.
AKA - "we know he's right, but simply cannot bring ourselves to admitting it"
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
If you're unable to see the contradiction in terms in IWBYW's separate explanations I'm totally relaxed about that.Devils_Advocate wrote:My mistake I thought you just wanted an answer in plain English, no caveats and a simplistic yes or no so was trying to help.
As you were!!
Maybe he'll come back on and clarify.......
He also seems to have a differing opinion about EU law preventing the UK government from bailing British Steel, out to, Dr Ruth Bender, Associate Professor of Corporate Financial Strategy, whi was interviewed on Radio 5 Live Breakfast show on 31st March.
I'm sure the BBC would choose quality guests when it comes to these matters.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Thank you NilDnil_desperandum wrote:That tends to be what English right wing political groups do, though in Guich's case I think it was simply an oversight.
I admit I didn't consider any of Wales, Scotland and NI being firmly in either camp - more as Labour.
If I was to take a stab at it - I'd say that while Plaid Cymru is remain - most of their voters aren't, majority of SNP voters are remain and NI voters slightly remain.
I agree that we are pretty much split 33/33/33 - whereas Parliament doesn't reflect that very well. Which, I guess, has made it a nye on impossible job for TM to get anything through.
I often wonder if we had left the EU a couple of years ago without being told, how long it would take any of us to notice...
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Well even by my own high standards I've put a good half dozen Remoaners to the sword today. At times today I've felt like the man keeping the plates spinning!
Im signing off now. I've spent way too much time on here than I should've done. So much so that I wanted an early finish tomorrow but today's shenanigans have put paid to that. So I'll bid you all adieu.
Just as an aside. If the poster Elizabeth arrives on here I can assure you of 2 things.
I must admit I myself find it a little weird. And it's genuinely genuinely not me. Ask yourself this. Having got the better of half a dozen Remoaners, why in the world , would I log in under a different name and do a poor parody of myself. Makes zero sense.
Have a great bank holiday weekend ladies
Im signing off now. I've spent way too much time on here than I should've done. So much so that I wanted an early finish tomorrow but today's shenanigans have put paid to that. So I'll bid you all adieu.
Just as an aside. If the poster Elizabeth arrives on here I can assure you of 2 things.
I must admit I myself find it a little weird. And it's genuinely genuinely not me. Ask yourself this. Having got the better of half a dozen Remoaners, why in the world , would I log in under a different name and do a poor parody of myself. Makes zero sense.
Have a great bank holiday weekend ladies
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
2008- Labour bail out the banks and saves London based bankers jobs. Costing the nation billions.
The EU says , " that's fine."
2019- The tories want to save thousands of steel workers jobs in the industrial north. Costing the nation millions.
The EU says, "No can do , UK"
Like the old Real Labour MPs always said, "the EU is a bankers club.
The EU says , " that's fine."
2019- The tories want to save thousands of steel workers jobs in the industrial north. Costing the nation millions.
The EU says, "No can do , UK"
Like the old Real Labour MPs always said, "the EU is a bankers club.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
RingoMcCartney wrote:2008- Labour bail out the banks and saves London based bankers jobs. Costing the nation billions.
The EU says , " that's fine."
2019- The tories want to save thousands of steel workers jobs in the industrial north. Costing the nation millions.
The EU says, "No can do , UK"
Like the old Real Labour MPs always said, "the EU is a bankers club.
This is not true. The government and the company couldn't come to an agreement on a loan which, as you already said, means the EU isn't to blame.
I don't know why you continue to post something you know to be untrue. Ah. Never mind. I know exactly why.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
They could nationalise it, and if they were interested in saving it, they would. The government is simply hiding their inaction behind the bogeyman of the EU and not for the first time. Let's not forget, it wasn't government austerity that led to our services being in crisis. It was the EU.RingoMcCartney wrote:Dr Ruth Bender, Associate Professor of Corporate Financial Strategy, was interviewed on Radio 5 Live Breakfast show on 31st March,
She said when asked
Do EU rules prevent state aid to save British Steel?
"Unfortunately, yes. The fact that all the economic factors go against the UK steel industry is not relevant, nor is the potentially devastating impact on the wider local economy were it to close. The EU has already ruled on this: in January 2016 the competition commissioner ruled that the Belgian government had illegally provided €211m to steel companies in one of its depressed regions, and ordered that the money be repaid. She also announced an investigation into €2bn of similar aid given by the Italian government to support its steel industry."
"The EU takes the view that State aid cannot be used if it distorts competition, and that EU regional funding is available to help with the social consequences of closing down industries that are uncompetitive."
https://youtu.be/LKu43pLaItM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Greg Clark turned down the company's funding request on advice it would have broken state aid legislation
https://news.sky.com/video/clark-no-the" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... l-11726187
Sky news confirming The EU does not allow state support of a business if it would distort competition in the single market.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Cheers Guich. your post has prompted me to look at the NI referendum results in a little more detail.Guich wrote:Thank you NilD
I admit I didn't consider any of Wales, Scotland and NI being firmly in either camp - more as Labour.
If I was to take a stab at it - I'd say that while Plaid Cymru is remain - most of their voters aren't, majority of SNP voters are remain and NI voters slightly remain.
.
Leave in fact only polled just under 350,000 which equated to 44% of the vote. (350,000 incidentally isn't far away from the 370,000 who voted either DUP or UUP in 2017 GE.)
The turnout at 62% was much lower than the UK average of 72%, this despite the fact that Ireland is seen as being pivotal to all discussions.
My feeling is that if the election was rerun there now there would be a higher turnout because people are now far more aware of the border issue, and this would increase the remain share since you can't really see where the additional "leave" (DUP / UUP) votes would come from.
Incidentally it's revealing that all the areas that adjoin the "border" had large remain majorities. (They were obviously more aware of potential issues than anyone else.)
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Not new at allRingoMcCartney wrote:This is a new approach.
The lofty, "it's too simplistic to answer " technique.
AKA - "we know he's right, but simply cannot bring ourselves to admitting it"
Its that dreaded word that makes you foam at the mouth.
Reality
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Each of those multiple chances involved you asking a different question though. You didn't like the first answer so you asked something different in the hope I wouldn't notice the terms of reference had changed. It's one of your transparent "Ringo is never wrong" tactics that everyone is aware of. I just wonder whether you do it unconsciously and really do believe that you're right or this is all a facade.RingoMcCartney wrote:When somebody has been given multiple chances to provide a simple yes or no answer, and they're reduced to saying "it's too simplistic" . Then, despite claiming they have answered refuse to simply repost the answer, because they can't, cos they haven't! Then further reduced to posting juvenile memes. You know it's game over for them.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
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Last edited by If it be your will on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
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Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
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Last edited by If it be your will on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Think you might have to wait till tomorrow as he's running with his mad 'remain voting' Liz act tonightIf it be your will wrote:I am able to put an axe through my neighbour's head.
I am forbidden from putting an axe through my neighbour's head
I've come back to discover that this went on for ages after I'd left. Surely, after reprinting several of my posts it must have dawned that I'm both a leaver and agree that bailing out British Steel is problematic under EU law. What on earth has all this been about? Why have you spent the best part of a day arguing a point we actually agree on? What went wrong, Ringo?
(Let's see if he wastes another hour of his time...)
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
A lot of EU citizens here told they couldn’t vote today.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
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Last edited by If it be your will on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Another thing I can’t talk about with authority, but I suspect - considering the government’s we’ve had over the last forty years - that the U.K. has been a major driving force in getting these EU rules set up.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
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Last edited by If it be your will on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
In 2012 Hollande threatened to nationalise the French steel site in Florange. ArcelorMittal were in dispute with the French government at the time. The threat was real. Have rules changed since then. In 2014 the Italian government stepped in and nationalised the steel Ilva plant in Taranto until a buyer could be found . It employed 14000 people. Network rail is government owned as is LNER. If we saved the banks, surely we vmcan save steel production in Scunthorpe.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Peter Oborne, life long Brexiteer making a very good case for taking a step back to clear everyones heads
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... ink-again/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
He speaks a lot of sense. But unfortunately Brexit has become some sort of cult for a lot of people so someone talking sense won’t make a blind bit of difference. They only have ears for their cult leaders now and the chances of any of them talking sense anytime soon are remote to say the least.Lancasterclaret wrote:Peter Oborne, life long Brexiteer making a very good case for taking a step back to clear everyones heads
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
May to resign on 7th June.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Doesn't matter who they replace her with, the same problems will still be there.
Painful listen this to be fair.
Painful listen this to be fair.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Thought that the speech was well crafted and delivered to be fair up until the emotional choreographed exit.Lancasterclaret wrote:Doesn't matter who they replace her with, the same problems will still be there.
Painful listen this to be fair.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
The last ten seconds of her speech was the first time she's looked remotely human.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I doubt that end was choreographed. If so she deserves an Oscar for faking fighting tears so expertly.nil_desperandum wrote:Thought that the speech was well crafted and delivered to be fair up until the emotional choreographed exit.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Not sure that bit was choreographed.
She's been dead emotionally for her entire political career
She's been dead emotionally for her entire political career
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Maybe choreographed was the wrong choice of word, but you really don't expect a world leader to break down and walk off.Juxtaposition wrote:I doubt that end was choreographed. If so she deserves an Oscar for faking fighting tears so expertly.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Good job she's not a world leader then!
Going down as the worst PM for decades isn't going to anyone emotional state any good
Going down as the worst PM for decades isn't going to anyone emotional state any good