Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Mala591]

Labour MPs seem to be genuinely appalled at the prospect of a no-deal Brexit and yet they are responsible (along with the ERG tories) for rejecting the (relatively soft) withdrawal agreement.

Probably too late for them to persuade Boris to give them one last chance to support a negotiated exit but I have a feeling that this option isn't quite as dead as some might think.

[Colburn_Claret]

Why does it have to be one or the other? Do you not understand even slightly how these things work?
An agreement has been made to cover the first 12 months. One assumes that it will either be rolled over or a new agreement will be made beyond this. Flights can't take place without it. It would be too dangerous. That should be obvious.
Presumably you do understand from a safety point of view why we have to have joint protocols with the EU and the rest of the world in order to regulate air travel and minimise the risk of incidents?

Of course I do, but you presume that those protocols will be ripped up otherwise why even mention it.
All of the problems you raise could have been answered by now if it wasnt for May and the rest of the Remainers in cabinet, trying to undermine the vote to leave.
Boris, love him or hate him, has done more in 4 weeks to prepare this country for Brexit, than May did in 3 years.
All the points of joint interest could have been addressed and either agreed to maintain, tweaked or scrapped accordingly.
People, or Remainers ask, well what have they done to us that's so bad, and the answer is not a lot, so it should be easy to agree and maintain the vast majority of your 54 links. Where the EU is bad, is taking more and more of Westminsters power away and putting it in the hands of people in Brussels who we didn't select.
The Red Lines are still there. That doesn't mean we dont want to cooperate with the EU, it does mean that we have a voice to sit at the table with the 26's representatives and have our say, instead of being one of the 27 and having little to no say.

[nil_desperandum]

Of course I do, but you presume that those protocols will be ripped up otherwise why even mention it.
.

It's not an assumption. It's a fact.
If you cancel, (or walk out of) or whatever you want to call it a treaty (which effectively our membership of the EU is), then it no longer exists. This is what happens on Nov 1st if we fail to agree on anything.
In a "no deal" scenario we cancel everything, and as I pointed out, the only thing that we currently have in place in binding terms is an interim agreement to keep planes flying that satisfies those who fly the planes that everything will continue safely as before.
I haven't said that this can't be rolled over or renegotiated after 12 months, but we have to do this in all the other 54 areas to a greater or lesser degree.
Obviously if we just roll them all over, then we've no brexit, so each of them has to be looked at negotiated and agreed.
It's really such a simple thing to understand that I can't believe that you have come back on the thread challenging me on this again.

[dsr]

What are the 55 areas? Presumably they're listed somewhere on t'net, but I can't find them.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You’re not criticising Brexit there - you’re criticising the handling of Brexit, which is something even the most one-eyed brexiter would do.

Ok

You want me to criticise something that I don't have much of an issue happening, nor do I have much of an issue if it doesn't happen.

Problem there is it isn't really very central to my life because, as I've said before, little has changed and long term little will change.
There may be some short term changes but things never stay the same.

[Colburn_Claret]

It's not an assumption. It's a fact.
If you cancel, (or walk out of) or whatever you want to call it a treaty (which effectively our membership of the EU is), then it no longer exists. This is what happens on Nov 1st if we fail to agree on anything.
In a "no deal" scenario we cancel everything, and as I pointed out, the only thing that we currently have in place in binding terms is an interim agreement to keep planes flying that satisfies those who fly the planes that everything will continue safely as before.
I haven't said that this can't be rolled over or renegotiated after 12 months, but we have to do this in all the other 54 areas to a greater or lesser degree.
Obviously if we just roll them all over, then we've no brexit, so each of them has to be looked at negotiated and agreed.
It's really such a simple thing to understand that I can't believe that you have come back on the thread challenging me on this again.

I'm challenging you because you painted a picture whereby we would no longer be able to fly into Europe. I would eat donkey **** on the moon if that happened. Now you say it can be rolled over or renegotiated, which it patently, obviously will be.
You're just another remainer wanting to believe the worst, when common sense says you're wrong. Not wrong with your idea that it needs sorting, but definitely wrong in suggesting it wont be.

Accentuate the negative, eliminate the positive.
It's a theme that's been running through the remain campaign from day one.

[Greenmile]

Ok

You want me to criticise something that I don't have much of an issue happening, nor do I have much of an issue if it doesn't happen.

I don’t want you to do anything. I’m just pointing out that the post you implied was criticising Brexit was doing nothing of the sort.

[martin_p]

I'm challenging you because you painted a picture whereby we would no longer be able to fly into Europe.

No he didn’t, he specifically said that that probably wouldn’t happen!

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I don’t want you to do anything. I’m just pointing out that the post you implied was criticising Brexit was doing nothing of the sort.

Ok, well I'll wait until it happens so I can find something about it to complain about, that's what you're wanting me to do.

[Greenmile]

Ok, well I'll wait until it happens so I can find something about it to complain about, that's what you're wanting me to do.

The post you’ve quoted literally says I don’t want you to do anything. What are you trying to achieve by misrepresenting what I say like this?

[Greenmile]

No he didn’t, he specifically said that that probably wouldn’t happen!

I’m beginning to think brexiters actually see different words from everyone else when they read some of the posts on here. I’m struggling to think of a better explanation.

[Bordeauxclaret]

STOP BULLYING THEM

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The post you’ve quoted literally says I don’t want you to do anything. What are you trying to achieve by misrepresenting what I say like this?

I can't be arsed, you're clearly on a wind up.

We can reconvene when Brexit happens and the dust has settled.
That's the time to decide what there is to criticise, not beforehand.

Have fun stressing about it

[nil_desperandum]

I'm challenging you because you painted a picture whereby we would no longer be able to fly into Europe. I would eat donkey **** on the moon if that happened. Now you say it can be rolled over or renegotiated, which it patently, obviously will be.
You're just another remainer wanting to believe the worst, when common sense says you're wrong. Not wrong with your idea that it needs sorting, but definitely wrong in suggesting it wont be.

Accentuate the negative, eliminate the positive.
It's a theme that's been running through the remain campaign from day one.

Others have already pulled you up on this, but - out of interest, why do you persist in the false claim that I said planes wouldn't fly post Oct 31st in the event of "No deal", when this - in fact - is exactly the opposite of what I actually did write (presumably in post 11018)?
I specifically said that this was the ONLY area in which we actually have a binding agreement, albeit an interim one. (Interim I assume until we actually finally leave the EU and make a more permanent treaty).
It's currently just about the only thing that we can be certain about. So why do you keep coming back with the same nonsense?

"Not wrong with your idea that it needs sorting, but definitely wrong in suggesting it wont be."

I never made any such suggestion, in fact I said the opposite, and if there was any doubt I clarified it in later posts -11024, 11025 and 11027.

[Devils_Advocate]

There's a certain irony about todays wonderful Brexit news

[Colburn_Claret]

Others have already pulled you up on this, but - out of interest, why do you persist in the false claim that I said planes wouldn't fly post Oct 31st in the event of "No deal", when this - in fact - is exactly the opposite of what I actually did write (presumably in post 11018)?
I specifically said that this was the ONLY area in which we actually have a binding agreement, albeit an interim one. (Interim I assume until we actually finally leave the EU and make a more permanent treaty).
It's currently just about the only thing that we can be certain about. So why do you keep coming back with the same nonsense?

I never made any such suggestion, in fact I said the opposite, and if there was any doubt I clarified it in later posts -11024, 11025 and 11027.

It wasnt the way I read it nils, but I accept it was my mistake, so apologies.
I still believe you look for the downside of everything Brexit, without looking for any positives, but I dont hold that against anyone, it's just a difference of opinion.

[Elizabeth]

On the ballot paper brexiteers saw the word 'LEAVE', you saw the word 'REMAIN'
The word' LEAVE' was seen by most. Surely there is a message for you there.

[martin_p]

On the ballot paper brexiteers saw the word 'LEAVE', you saw the word 'REMAIN'
The word' LEAVE' was seen by most. Surely there is a message for you there.

That there was a batch of dodgy ballot papers?

[Elizabeth]

You post like one of those fed up supporters you hear going off after a close defeat, complaining about the ref and bad luck.
Of course all the complaining in the world won't change the fact that you were supporting the losing team. The opponents got the 3 points and nothing will change that. Nothing.

[martin_p]

You post like one of those fed up supporters you hear going off after a close defeat, complaining about the ref and bad luck.
Of course all the complaining in the world won't change the fact that you were supporting the losing team. The opponents got the 3 points and nothing will change that. Nothing.

You post like someone with no sense of humour Wrongo.

[Elizabeth]

You are never far away when I post so I can quite categorically recall you are never trying to be humorous

[RingoMcCartney]

You did this on the Owen Jones thread - attributed an incorrect meaning and motive to what I wrote, and proceeded to call me names over it.

So let's take this back to where I said; conmen look for the weakness in your character, and exploit it. What I meant by this is everybody has a vulnerability, and I'll go further to say that even people with the very highest of characters will have one virtue that stands out as only rating an eight, while all the rest are nines and tens. Nowhere have I said anyone has "a weak character"

If you want to understand my analogy about us being conned, think of it as the country as a whole. All the promises made by leave that have turned out to be bullshit, and now we've voted for leave they're insisting that just leaving the EU isn't good enough. Now we have to have the hardest possible exit. First they get you to make that initial investment (voting to leave - because we'll get a great deal, and if we don't we'll border Syria and Iraq, etc), and now if we don't want to lose that initial investment, we have to invest even more (a no deal exit). Do you follow? I'll accept "maybe" or "kinda".

Dancing on a pinhead - "weak in character" as to the entirely different " weakness in your character"! Come of it Andrew, that's embarrassing!

So first you want to attempt to back track from implying leave voters were stupid, by saying they only were "weak in character" ! Now you want to backtrack from saying they were only "weak in character " if they were labour Leave voters , only when they voted Leave not when they voted Labour.!!

And this is your new attempt at explaining your contradiction-

Well ,conveniently for you, quite clearly, when they voted Leave vote they were conned. By "conmen who were looking for weakness in their character". (Its really cos they disagree with you!)

Whereas, when they voted Labour, presumably, they simply believed what, high minded, honorable and trustworthy people were telling them!!! ( thats because they agree with you!)



The leader of the labour party has been a brexiteer all his political life.

By your logic, that means Corbyn must be a high minded, honorable and trustworthy conman!!!

[martin_p]

You need to make it less obvious Wrongo, just 8 minutes behind your alter ego!

[Devils_Advocate]

Dancing on a pinhead - "weak in character" as to the entirely different " weakness in your character"! Come of it Andrew, that's embarrassing!

So first you want to attempt to back track from implying leave voters were stupid, by saying they only were "weak in character" ! Now you want to backtrack from saying they were only "weak in character " if they were labour Leave voters , only when they voted Leave not when they voted Labour.!!

And this is your new attempt at explaining your contradiction-

Well ,conveniently for you, quite clearly, when they voted Leave vote they were conned. By "conmen who were looking for weakness in their character". (Its really cos they disagree with you!)

Whereas, when they voted Labour, presumably, they simply believed what, high minded, honorable and trustworthy people were telling them!!! ( thats because they agree with you!)



The leader of the labour party has been a brexiteer all his political life.

By your logic, that means Corbyn must be a high minded, honorable and trustworthy conman!!!

I took my glasses off to read this post and its the most sense Ringo has made in years

[martin_p]

Dancing on a pinhead - "weak in character" as to the entirely different " weakness in your character"! Come of it Andrew, that's embarrassing!

So first you want to attempt to back track from implying leave voters were stupid, by saying they only were "weak in character" ! Now you want to backtrack from saying they were only "weak in character " if they were labour Leave voters , only when they voted Leave not when they voted Labour.!!

And this is your new attempt at explaining your contradiction-

Well ,conveniently for you, quite clearly, when they voted Leave vote they were conned. By "conmen who were looking for weakness in their character". (Its really cos they disagree with you!)

Whereas, when they voted Labour, presumably, they simply believed what, high minded, honorable and trustworthy people were telling them!!! ( thats because they agree with you!)



The leader of the labour party has been a brexiteer all his political life.

By your logic, that means Corbyn must be a high minded, honorable and trustworthy conman!!!

Why do you think people voting Labour at the last election were conned?

[RingoMcCartney]

You post like one of those fed up supporters you hear going off after a close defeat, complaining about the ref and bad luck.
Of course all the complaining in the world won't change the fact that you were supporting the losing team. The opponents got the 3 points and nothing will change that. Nothing.

You predict that you'll never accept the result of the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed.

You, and people like you , are just like the guy in the pub after the game where a ref awarded a penalty that you didn't agree with. Whining on relentlessly, boring the life our of everybody else who has simply accepted the result and want to move on.

DEMOCRACY- IT MEANS SOMETIMES, YOU LOSE

Which ever of you weirdos has the time or inclination to create a tribute act , it really is about time your retired them/you.

Just sad.

[RingoMcCartney]

You need to make it less obvious Wrongo, just 8 minutes behind your alter ego!

Sad......

[RingoMcCartney]

Why do you think people voting Labour at the last election were conned?

Where did I say that Marty?

[martin_p]

Which ever of you weirdos has the time or inclination to create a tribute act , it really is about time your retired them/you.

Just sad.

My favourite bit is how your ‘tribute act’ consistently predicts when you’re about to post and gets in a few minutes before you.

[RingoMcCartney]

I took my glasses off to read this post and its the most sense Ringo has made in years

Then you need to take your glasses off more often.

Shouldn't have gone to specsavers......

[RingoMcCartney]

My favourite bit is how your ‘tribute act’ consistently predicts when you’re about to post and gets in a few minutes before you.

Its almost as if somebody has noticed I'm around at this time of the evening and spotted I'd logged on , and they got into "character" quick style! Weren't quick enough the rest of the time I've been on earlier this week eh!

Monday's and Tuesday's must not be a good day for "consistently predicting" eh Marty!?

[Elizabeth]

I bid all goodnight.

As Oscar Wilde once is reported to have despaired 'There is no sin except stupidity`

[RingoMcCartney]

Toodle pip Marty.

[Elizabeth]

You couldn't make it up.
Martin with a little 'm' thinks I'm Ringo.
Ringo thinks I'm Martin with a little 'm'

While these 2 posters have the anonymity of the Internet on Uptheclarets to protect them, they must actually be people you might come across in the street. That is scary

[bfcjg]

The latest meetings just show that the EU is basically Germany and France who will dictate what happens . I note the PM hasn't visited any other leaders.

[nil_desperandum]

The latest meetings just show that the EU is basically Germany and France who will dictate what happens . I note the PM hasn't visited any other leaders.

Maybe it's because France and Germany, (along with ourselves) are by far the biggest net contributors to the EU budget, and are the countries who would be most adversely affected by a "no deal" brexit. They're currently at the "top table" along with us. He needs to get some agreement with them.
Germany in fact contributes more than 19 of the smaller economies put together.
Additionally most of these other countries export less to us than we do to them, so they will be relatively unscathed if there's no free trade deal.
Maybe it's also because France and Germany will be at the G7 this week, (admittedly along with Italy).
You may not have noticed, but Johnson has only a few weeks to deliver on some wild promises, so why would he waste his days jetting off to Estonia and Slovakia?

[AndrewJB]

The con goes on. Hilarious to read what rightwing newspapers claim Merkel and Macron have said, and what they actually said.

[Elizabeth]

There are many words to describe this Brexit farce but I don't think 'hilarious' is one that the vast majority of the public would support.
It is generally accepted by those who may matter in Parliament that Johnson may be worth supporting for longer that some predicted, following his visit to Merkel and Macron.
Will be interesting how the MPs who want to thwart Brexit react to Johnson not being rejected in Germany and France.

[Imploding Turtle]

The con goes on. Hilarious to read what rightwing newspapers claim Merkel and Macron have said, and what they actually said.

They know their audience. Thick *****.

[AndrewJB]

There are many words to describe this Brexit farce but I don't think 'hilarious' is one that the vast majority of the public would support.
It is generally accepted by those who may matter in Parliament that Johnson may be worth supporting for longer that some predicted, following his visit to Merkel and Macron.
Will be interesting how the MPs who want to thwart Brexit react to Johnson not being rejected in Germany and France.

A correction: “hilarious to read” (what I wrote) newspapers lying, isn’t the same as finding the whole Brexit farce, and all the related pain hilarious.

[nil_desperandum]

Will be interesting how the MPs who want to thwart Brexit react to Johnson not being rejected in Germany and France.

Why would they reject him?
They're serious, intelligent, pragmatic politicians who have their eye on the ball. They've essentially given him a month to come up with a solution to the Irish border issue and therefore remove the need for the backstop.
Johnson's problem is that in 3 years we haven't come up with anything credible or workable, and there's nothing new on the horizon. Nothing's changed from the EU perspective, and now they've firmly put the ball into Johnson's court. Let's not forget that his solution to this a couple of years ago was something akin to the London Oyster Card system, and even his own party mocked him for that.

[Elizabeth]

History reveals that many successful people were mocked and rejected beforehand.

Let me ask you a question.

If Johnson gets the withdrawal deal changed and passed by Parliament will you consider him successful?

[Elizabeth]

These same serious, intelligent, pragmatic politicians who have their eye on the ball didn't give May the same respect as Johnson has received this week, at any time over the period you refer to.

I believe that was because they never believed May was serious about leaving without a deal. They know Johnson is serious.

[martin_p]

History reveals that many successful people were mocked and rejected beforehand.

Like who?

[martin_p]

These same serious, intelligent, pragmatic politicians who have their eye on the ball didn't give May the same respect as Johnson has received this week, at any time over the period you refer to.

I believe that was because they never believed May was serious about leaving without a deal. They know Johnson is serious.

What have they given Johnson they didn’t give May? May was given lots of time to come up with a backstop alternative.

[Elizabeth]

You don't have much knowledge of how many successful people in life have had to overcome people like you and those much better than you to have to ask that question do you?

[Elizabeth]

As you don't see any significance in Johnson's dealings with Merkel and Macron this week ,the same question I asked last night is put to you.
If Johnson gets changes to the Withdrawal Agreement which are accepted by Parliament, will you regard him as successful?

[bfcjg]

11096....Elizabeth the first
11097....Elizabeth the second.

[martin_p]

You don't have much knowledge of how many successful people in life have had to overcome people like you and those much better than you to have to ask that question do you?

And you don’t have an answer to my question. Name one, in the political sphere. You said there were many.

[martin_p]

As you don't see any significance in Johnson's dealings with Merkel and Macron this week ,the same question I asked last night is put to you.
If Johnson gets changes to the Withdrawal Agreement which are accepted by Parliament, will you regard him as successful?

If it isn’t just a re-skinned May deal and it gets through Parliament then yes.