Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:16 pm

AndrewJB wrote:If the government had actually consulted with people, and negotiated a simple soft Brexit back in 2017, we’d already be out now. The only reason we are where we are is because the government insisted on doing it all alone, and aimed at quite a hard Brexit, which involved the most complicated negotiations - requiring (as we’ve seen) big concessions to the EU over the NI border. As all of this has unravelled, proved impossible to build a majority consensus for, and strengthened support for not leaving at all, there is no doubt in my mind that the approach was all wrong.

Again - a soft leave in 2017 would have saved us years of wrangling, wasted money and effort, and we’d be out (so further ahead than we are now).
But did we vote for a soft Brexit??

I know I didn’t, a soft Brexit is worse than staying in the EU, IMHO.

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:19 pm

AndrewJB wrote:If the government had actually consulted with people, and negotiated a simple soft Brexit back in 2017, we’d already be out now. The only reason we are where we are is because the government insisted on doing it all alone, and aimed at quite a hard Brexit, which involved the most complicated negotiations - requiring (as we’ve seen) big concessions to the EU over the NI border. As all of this has unravelled, proved impossible to build a majority consensus for, and strengthened support for not leaving at all, there is no doubt in my mind that the approach was all wrong.

Again - a soft leave in 2017 would have saved us years of wrangling, wasted money and effort, and we’d be out (so further ahead than we are now).
Regardless of any complexities surrounding a soft/hard brexit, 12mths to fully achieve this would have been more than reasonable, mountaineers have conquered everest in less time.

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:33 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:But did we vote for a soft Brexit??

I know I didn’t, a soft Brexit is worse than staying in the EU, IMHO.
Some people did. Brexit had multiple contradictory meanings all of which were lumped into one vote, thereby destroying a mandate for any one course of action.

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Darthlaw » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:41 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Great but this is our mess to sort out and the EU want to play no part in it and imposing a deadline for us to adhere to would do that
We set the deadline when we triggered A50. The EU play a part when they allow extensions. Logic suggests they should be looking to end the uncertainty for their members, rather than look after the interests of a leaving member.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex
Been Liked: 1 time
Has Liked: 826 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:45 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Some people did. Brexit had multiple contradictory meanings all of which were lumped into one vote, thereby destroying a mandate for any one course of action.
Soon to be fixed, it'll be Boris' deal subject to a confirmatory referendum with the option of remian, just what the Brexiters have been campaigning for these last few years.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:48 pm

CombatClaret wrote: Some bore from Burnley on the radio again...
:o
Gem of wisdom: A second referendum would upset Labour leave voters.
Fails to explain the benefits Brexit for said any UK citizen.

Got nothing left except 'we voted for it'.
Aah , so you were fortunate to be one of probably 100s of thousands to hear my latest address to the nation!!

To be fair, Majid Nawaz gave me a decent amount of air time.

Air time that will hopefully, possibly just make labour think twice about the 2nd referendum and remain route.

As for "failing to explain the benefits of Brexit." Do you really really think I'd get on the air, regurgitating the same, done to death , circular arguements that have been done for the last 5 and a half years. (2 pre and the 3.5 since the 2016 Peoples Vote)



And having "Got nothing left except 'we voted for it'. is not half as unprincipled as your typical remoaner arguement-

"I'm normalising being a sore loser"

We lost a valuable point at Leicester to a highly questionable "foul" I was as grumpy as a bear with a proverbial sore arse all last night. Ask the mrs , who buggered off up to bed early before MOTD came on cos she knew old grumpy knickers would be venting his spleen at the tele!

But guess what. It's a new day today. I'm over it. We lost I accept it.

You should give it a go.











Listen out for more Ringo inspired conversation across the nation ;)

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:49 pm

Darthlaw wrote:We set the deadline when we triggered A50. The EU play a part when they allow extensions. Logic suggests they should be looking to end the uncertainty for their members, rather than look after the interests of a leaving member.
We set the deadline and then we legislated the Benn Act to seek more time. The EU are leaving it to us and if we need more time they'll ley us have it. If Parliament was happy with the deadline and leaving with No Deal on that date it would not have passed the Benn Bill.

This is all down to us and in within our control and it looks like we are going to finally sort it out and pass a deal without the need for the EU to reject an extension

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:54 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:We set the deadline and then we legislated the Benn Act to seek more time. The EU are leaving it to us and if we need more time they'll ley us have it. If Parliament was happy with the deadline and leaving with No Deal on that date it would not have passed the Benn Bill.

This is all down to us and in within our control and it looks like we are going to finally sort it out and pass a deal without the need for the EU to reject an extension
The alternative would be operation yellowhammer.

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Darthlaw » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:56 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:We set the deadline and then we legislated the Benn Act to seek more time. The EU are leaving it to us and if we need more time they'll ley us have it.
Devils_Advocate wrote:The EU want to play no part in it
Once the EU give more time, past our own set time limit, then they are involved. That’s before you take into account the obvious nature of the various acts which Remainer MP’s have pushed through in order to stifle Brexit.

If the EU wanted no part in our political process, they would simply say ‘your bed, Lie in it’. Unless, of course, there was an agenda to keep us in for their own benefit...

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:57 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:But did we vote for a soft Brexit??

I know I didn’t, a soft Brexit is worse than staying in the EU, IMHO.
People who voted Remain claim they voted for the status quo.


With an EU commiited to "ever closer union " there is no fixed status quo. Membership of the European union is fluid and the drive for a federal union means we, as brexiteers can ask with sincerity, "Did you vote for a Soft Remain or a hard Remain?"

Soft Remain- no increase in contributions in the future.
No membership of the single currency
No joining an EU army
No more laws
Not accepting any planned supra national EU ministers that can override national governments , their sovereignty and budgets

Hard Remain-
Accepting all the above, and anything else that the EU cooks up in the future.
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:57 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Listen out for more Ringo inspired conversation across the nation ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xlXxT8qNkI
This user liked this post: taio

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:59 pm


Its called having the courage of your convictions.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:02 pm

Darthlaw wrote:If the EU wanted no part in our political process, they would simply say ‘your bed, Lie in it’. Unless, of course, there was an agenda to keep us in for their own benefit...
This is what they are doing but the bed we are currently having to lie in is the internal mess in Parliament of trying to make a clear decision on what we want to do.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:03 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Its called having the courage of your convictions.
Its called being a desperate boring blowhard

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:06 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Soon to be fixed, it'll be Boris' deal subject to a confirmatory referendum with the option of remian, just what the Brexiters have been campaigning for these last few years.

In that situation I expect the remain vote to win.

But what does that mean really, we should stay in. Not for me it says the deal was not liked.

Political chaos will result with loads of Brexit party MP’s in Parliament. Addition ones in the EU Parliament too.

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Darthlaw » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:12 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:This is what they are doing but the bed we are currently having to lie in is the internal mess in Parliament of trying to make a clear decision on what we want to do.
So are they staying out of it by removing the deadline or getting involved in our political decisions by offering more time? You cant have it both ways.

I’ll allow that it suited them and their own unpreparedness with the first extension but another extension reeks of them trying to do an Ireland/Denmark and ensure the UK gives the result they want, this time.

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:13 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:People who voted Remain claim they voted for the status quo.


With an EU commiited to "ever closer union " there is no fixed status quo. Membership of the European union is fluid and the drive for a federal union means we, as brexiteers can ask with sincerity, "Did you vote for a Soft Remain or a hard Remain?"

Soft Remain- no increase in contributions in the future.
No membership of the single currency
No joining an EU army
No more laws
Not accepting any planned supra national EU ministers that can override national governments , their sovereignty and budgets

Hard Remain-
Accepting all the above, and anything else that the EU cooks up in the future.
But as we both know.

The EU want more powers over each country.
They want to set taxation.
They want more members to join the Euro.
25 members have agreed to be part of the new EU army, which we were told would never happen before the referendum.
One of the main aims of the current Parliament is to remove all rebates, so we would be paying even more in.
These 2 users liked this post: elwaclaret tiger76

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:21 pm

Darthlaw wrote:So are they staying out of it by removing the deadline or getting involved in our political decisions by offering more time? You cant have it both ways.

I’ll allow that it suited them and their own unpreparedness with the first extension but another extension reeks of them trying to do an Ireland/Denmark and ensure the UK gives the result they want, this time.
The deadline is nothing to do with them and they haven't removed it

Claret-On-A-T-Rex
Been Liked: 1 time
Has Liked: 826 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:30 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Political chaos will result with loads of Brexit party MP’s in Parliament. Addition ones in the EU Parliament too.
I agree, there should be a Brexit now and Johnson's is as good as it gets.

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:37 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:I agree, there should be a Brexit now and Johnson's is as good as it gets.
The problem I have is who to believe.

Boris is saying it allows us to take back control of just about everything.

Nigel says it still locks us in to many of the things I don’t like about the EU.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:42 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:But as we both know.

The EU want more powers over each country.
They want to set taxation.
They want more members to join the Euro.
25 members have agreed to be part of the new EU army, which we were told would never happen before the referendum.
One of the main aims of the current Parliament is to remove all rebates, so we would be paying even more in.

Consequently, "ever closer union" and voting Remain to keep the status quo, are a contradiction in terms.

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by thatdberight » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:45 pm

Spijed wrote:The likes of John Mann spring to mind
If I had to pick one MP to trust with anything important to me personally, he would be my choice; despite his and my political views being very different.
This user liked this post: AndyClaret

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:49 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Its called being a desperate boring blowhard
One man's "desperate boring blowhard" is another man's "having the balls to voice your opinions to 100s of thousands live "

Interestingly, nobody puts a gun to your head to force you to respond to the "desperate boring blowhard" do they!?

Suppose that says more about you than it does about me doesn't it!

:D

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:58 pm

AndrewJB wrote:If the government had actually consulted with people, and negotiated a simple soft Brexit back in 2017, we’d already be out now. The only reason we are where we are is because the government insisted on doing it all alone, and aimed at quite a hard Brexit, which involved the most complicated negotiations - requiring (as we’ve seen) big concessions to the EU over the NI border. As all of this has unravelled, proved impossible to build a majority consensus for, and strengthened support for not leaving at all, there is no doubt in my mind that the approach was all wrong.

Again - a soft leave in 2017 would have saved us years of wrangling, wasted money and effort, and we’d be out (so further ahead than we are now).
I've been saying this for ages.
As soon as May became PM she could have brought forward a bill immediately proposing that (subject to EU approval, which would have been forthcoming), we would leave the EU in 3 months, but temporarily remain in the CU and SM, whilst we negotiated a deal. [She would have had a large majority for this]
Ok, it wouldn't INITIALLY have been the "deal" that the ERG wanted, but if she'd gone for that she most likely wouldn't have called a GE, and she would have had a majority in Parliament to get a deal through over the next 12 months or so.
More importantly she would have done what the people voted for, so that would have been one argument out of the way. It would also have broadly satisfied the vast majority of the 48%.
Focus would then have been on getting a good trade deal outside the CU and to reduce regulatory alignment. The issue of the Irish border which was hardly mentioned prior to the referendum would not even have arisen - until later, but by then we would have been out.
Unfortunately she allowed herself to be hostage to the ERG, and that's why we have such a divided country now.
This user liked this post: AndrewJB

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:05 pm

So this board is full of people who want a "No Deal"

Its the only explanation for the complete inability to understand the very simple premise of the Letwin bill.

He's even been on TV saying he's now going to vote for the deal.

It was an insurance policy to stop us crashing out on a "No Deal".

It really is that simple.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:05 pm

thatdberight wrote:If I had to pick one MP to trust with anything important to me personally, he would be my choice; despite his and my political views being very different.
Leeds Utd supporter ..... umm....
More seriously, prepared to accept the bribe of a peerage by Theresa May which was severely criticised by the independent watchdog.
I would agree that he is generally more principled than most however.

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:09 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Consequently, "ever closer union" and voting Remain to keep the status quo, are a contradiction in terms.
I agree.

Not sure many understand the ultimate aim of the EU.

jontybfc
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:20 pm
Been Liked: 12 times
Has Liked: 32 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:12 pm

:roll:
Jakubclaret wrote:Regardless of any complexities surrounding a soft/hard brexit, 12mths to fully achieve this would have been more than reasonable, mountaineers have conquered everest in less time.
Because climbing a mountain is a good reference point :roll:

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:13 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:I agree.

Not sure many understand the ultimate aim of the EU.
Someone has been resending that "Do You Know What Happens In 2022 With The Treaty Of Lisbon?" stuff that is retweeted or shared on facebook by bots and people who don't want to know its all untrue.

Imploding Turtle
Posts: 19799
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
Been Liked: 5483 times
Has Liked: 2540 times
Location: Burnley, Lancs

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:15 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Someone has been resending that "Do You Know What Happens In 2022 With The Treaty Of Lisbon?" stuff that is retweeted or shared on facebook by bots and people who don't want to know its all untrue.
This stuff? https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list- ... aty-wrong/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why is it that right-wingers are so desperate to believe, or pretend to believe, such obvious and easily debunked bullshit? Do you think they know they're destroying democracy?

Right_winger
Posts: 2105
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:28 pm
Been Liked: 492 times
Has Liked: 411 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Right_winger » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:22 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:So this board is full of people who want a "No Deal"

Its the only explanation for the complete inability to understand the very simple premise of the Letwin bill.

He's even been on TV saying he's now going to vote for the deal.

It was an insurance policy to stop us crashing out on a "No Deal".

It really is that simple.
Sorry but this is nonsense and you know it is. There was already the Benn act there to stop a no deal unless there was a deal. There is a deal. Remainer MPs are just using every trick to frustrate Brexit and attach a second loaded referendum to overturn the first one.

It’s as simple as that and you know it is.
These 3 users liked this post: Jakubclaret jrtod61 tiger76

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:23 pm

Right_winger wrote:Sorry but this is nonsense and you know it is. There was already the Benn act there to stop a no deal unless there was a deal. There is a deal. Remainer MPs are just using every trick to frustrate Brexit and attach a second loaded referendum to overturn the first one.

It’s as simple as that and you know it is.
It isn't.

Who loses if we leave the EU with a deal on, say, Nov 18th 2019?

AndyClaret
Posts: 1349
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
Been Liked: 217 times
Has Liked: 543 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:24 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Leeds Utd supporter ..... umm....
More seriously, prepared to accept the bribe of a peerage by Theresa May which was severely criticised by the independent watchdog.
I would agree that he is generally more principled than most however.

He's made a bid stance against Corbyns anti-semitism, talks a lot of sense.
These 2 users liked this post: nil_desperandum jrtod61

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:29 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Someone has been resending that "Do You Know What Happens In 2022 With The Treaty Of Lisbon?" stuff that is retweeted or shared on facebook by bots and people who don't want to know its all untrue.
I hope you had a good walk, hope the views were good.

I am not talking or interested in the treaty.

Just listen to Verhofstad to understand where it’s going.

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:This stuff? https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list- ... aty-wrong/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why is it that right-wingers are so desperate to believe, or pretend to believe, such obvious and easily debunked bullshit? Do you think they know they're destroying democracy?
The EU is already undemocratic.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:32 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:I hope you had a good walk, hope the views were good.

I am not talking or interested in the treaty.

Just listen to Verhofstad to understand where it’s going.
Great thanks.

Bit wet at the start and the Pennines are not a patch on the Lake District.

But I've never done Penyghent before so that's chalked off

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:32 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:So this board is full of people who want a "No Deal"

Its the only explanation for the complete inability to understand the very simple premise of the Letwin bill.

He's even been on TV saying he's now going to vote for the deal.

It was an insurance policy to stop us crashing out on a "No Deal".

It really is that simple.
That's pretty much what the media are reporting almost word for word, you can't blame people for being suspicious with all the skullduggery going on, delays & extensions, people are well within their rights to be frustrated & confused & would have expected by now to have left.

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:35 pm

Right_winger wrote:Sorry but this is nonsense and you know it is. There was already the Benn act there to stop a no deal unless there was a deal. There is a deal. Remainer MPs are just using every trick to frustrate Brexit and attach a second loaded referendum to overturn the first one.

It’s as simple as that and you know it is.
It's a plausible explanation & very believable, nothing seems to add up regarding the letwin amendment & the timing it could have been done sooner.

Imploding Turtle
Posts: 19799
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
Been Liked: 5483 times
Has Liked: 2540 times
Location: Burnley, Lancs

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:38 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:The EU is already undemocratic.
lol. It's more democratic than this country.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:44 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:But did we vote for a soft Brexit??

I know I didn’t, a soft Brexit is worse than staying in the EU, IMHO.
My point here is that a soft Brexit would already have been accomplished by now. Had the government actually consulted, they could have claimed more legitimacy behind them. A soft and swift brexit would have taken the ground from under the Remain cause, and not given them time to regroup and return to the attack. A soft Brexit would not prevent a government further loosening ties in the future. And a soft Brexit would have meant no issues such as Irish border, free trade deal, status of citizens living abroad, Britain’s role in areas of cooperation - so it would have been very quick and easy to do from both the negotiation with the EU, and getting it through Parliament (in comparison to what we’ve had, which has been painful, divisive, intractable, extremely expensive, and hasn’t yet succeeded, and indeed could yet fail altogether).

I can understand (though not agree with) your desire for a harder split, but surely we can agree that an approach more along the lines of what I’ve described would get you closer to that and without as much rancour than the one the government has taken?

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:44 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Great thanks.

Bit wet at the start and the Pennines are not a patch on the Lake District.

But I've never done Penyghent before so that's chalked off
I used to do a lot of walking.

Being diabetic and older means I cannot do large walks anymore.

So just a bit jealous.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:45 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:It's a plausible explanation & very believable, nothing seems to add up regarding the letwin amendment & the timing it could have been done sooner.
Now come on. Just think about it for one moment, or take longer if you need to.
How could Letwin (or anybody) have put forward an amendment to the bill any sooner than he did?
The new "deal" was only agreed in principle a few days ago, and as soon as the Saturday sitting was agreed Letwin put forward his amendment to the Bill.
It had cross-party support and was therefore selected by the Speaker.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:47 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:I used to do a lot of walking.

Being diabetic and older means I cannot do large walks anymore.

So just a bit jealous.
Sorry to hear that

It was a very rare non-football day for the kids so a family walk it Is!

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:50 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Now come on. Just think about it for one moment, or take longer if you need to.
How could Letwin (or anybody) have put forward an amendment to the bill any sooner than he did?
The new "deal" was only agreed in principle a few days ago, and as soon as the Saturday sitting was agreed Letwin put forward his amendment to the Bill.
It had cross-party support and was therefore selected by the Speaker.
That could be true, but my point remains that the process should be far more advanced than it is currently, it just seems everytime progress is being made, some stalling mechanism kicks in & it's more regression than progression.
This user liked this post: nil_desperandum

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:51 pm

AndrewJB wrote:My point here is that a soft Brexit would already have been accomplished by now. Had the government actually consulted, they could have claimed more legitimacy behind them. A soft and swift brexit would have taken the ground from under the Remain cause, and not given them time to regroup and return to the attack. A soft Brexit would not prevent a government further loosening ties in the future. And a soft Brexit would have meant no issues such as Irish border, free trade deal, status of citizens living abroad, Britain’s role in areas of cooperation - so it would have been very quick and easy to do from both the negotiation with the EU, and getting it through Parliament (in comparison to what we’ve had, which has been painful, divisive, intractable, extremely expensive, and hasn’t yet succeeded, and indeed could yet fail altogether).

I can understand (though not agree with) your desire for a harder split, but surely we can agree that an approach more along the lines of what I’ve described would get you closer to that and without as much rancour than the one the government has taken?

I know people don’t like this but it’s a fact.
We contribute either the second or third most amount of money into the EU.
Not only does it need that money, it’s budget has already spent future contributions.

It’s also not a level playing field or a democracy.

That’s my main issues.

Germany has a regional bank that can and does bail out German companies but we cannot.

The EU stifle the UK actively and that I fundamentally disagree with.

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:55 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Sorry to hear that

It was a very rare non-football day for the kids so a family walk it Is!
It’s ok, I adjusted to 48 hr fishing trips.

Couple of hundred yards exercise and then wonderful views and wildlife to watch.
These 2 users liked this post: Lancasterclaret Spijed

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:59 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Consequently, "ever closer union" and voting Remain to keep the status quo, are a contradiction in terms.
The EU recognised Britain’s desire to avoid ever closer union (as expressed by Cameron in Feb 2016).

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:00 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:lol. It's more democratic than this country.
Yes. The result of the the 2019 European Parliamentary election has already been implemented.

The result of the 2016 Eu referendum is yet to be implemented.

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:02 pm

D53995E0-95DA-41A8-A4F5-76BA7E3039EC.jpeg
D53995E0-95DA-41A8-A4F5-76BA7E3039EC.jpeg (645.07 KiB) Viewed 707 times
A recent sunset on Foulridge.
Lancasterclaret wrote:Great thanks.

Bit wet at the start and the Pennines are not a patch on the Lake District.

But I've never done Penyghent before so that's chalked off
These 2 users liked this post: Lancasterclaret Spijed

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:02 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Sorry to hear that

It was a very rare non-football day for the kids so a family walk it Is!
You appear to have missed the post where I asked you an honest question.

Prior to that, on Friday, I think it was, youd asked a genuine question of me.

I answered it.

Locked