Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[JohnMcGreal]

Only way out of this mess is a general election.

A general election is a cowardly way of trying to sort this mess out. Johnson and his allies know very well that in a general election, where people vote on multiple issues and on party lines, in a fairly unrepresentative system such as our FPTP system, he has a chance of winning a majority.

So the election will really be all about Brexit, but with enough vagueness and ambiguity to squeeze it over the line.

The proper thing to do would be to present his ‘deal’ to the public in a direct question. "This is the deal I’ve negotiated to leave the EU. Will you support it, or not? Leave with the deal, or remain as a full member. You decide."

No pussyfooting around the big issue, no hiding behind millions of wasted votes in safe seats. A fair and direct question to the population where every vote counts, and where party loyalty doesn’t come into it.

That would take genuine courage, which our PM entirely lacks.

[Lancasterclaret]

His original 2border plan had checks away from the border, the DUP signed up to this.

And what was the problem with that again Andy?

This is like pulling teeth here.

[Quickenthetempo]

If you'd like to tell me which bits of that tweet are a lie Quick I'll happily agree with you.

Sorry, I refuse to read anything from that toe rag.

[Lancasterclaret]

No mention of either the bill or an election in next weeks order bill.

[martin_p]

No mention of either the bill or an election in next weeks order bill.

He doesn’t want to make a decision he wants to be ‘forced into’ the next steps by the EU.

[Lancasterclaret]

Sorry, I refuse to read anything from that toe rag.

The London Evening Standard?

How often do you read that in Burnley?

[dsr]

So what is it if it’s not a check then? What’s it for?

What's any tax return for? It's semantics, like you said. You are perfectly entitled to describe a self-assessment tax return, for example, as a check by the government on your income. I wouldn't call it that; you might. If I say it isn't a check and you say it is, then it doesn't mean one of us is lying.

But if filling in paperwork constitutes a check, then it means that even under no-deal Brexit every single item crossing the Irish border is checked just as it is now, so one of the arguments against no-deal Brexit suddenly seems to disappear. Good news there that we can all agree on.

[Lancasterclaret]

What's any tax return for? It's semantics, like you said. You are perfectly entitled to describe a self-assessment tax return, for example, as a check by the government on your income. I wouldn't call it that; you might. If I say it isn't a check and you say it is, then it doesn't mean one of us is lying.

But if filling in paperwork constitutes a check, then it means that even under no-deal Brexit every single item crossing the Irish border is checked just as it is now, so one of the arguments against no-deal Brexit suddenly seems to disappear. Good news there that we can all agree on.

i don't know if you believe in the term "safe space", but you need one.

[martin_p]

What's any tax return for? It's semantics, like you said. You are perfectly entitled to describe a self-assessment tax return, for example, as a check by the government on your income. I wouldn't call it that; you might. If I say it isn't a check and you say it is, then it doesn't mean one of us is lying.

But if filling in paperwork constitutes a check, then it means that even under no-deal Brexit every single item crossing the Irish border is checked just as it is now, so one of the arguments against no-deal Brexit suddenly seems to disappear. Good news there that we can all agree on.

You seem not to know the difference between physical and paper checks.

And you haven’t managed to answer my question about what the form is for (answering with another question not being an actual answer).

Edit - oh, and this is nothing like a self-assessment tax return. Your analogy doesn’t work on any level, except there’s a form to fill in.

[Burnley Ace]

The proper thing to do would be to present his ‘deal’ to the public in a direct question. "This is the deal I’ve negotiated to leave the EU. Will you support it, or not? Leave with the deal, or remain as a full member

That would take genuine courage, which our PM entirely lacks.

Whilst I fully agree with your point, which is why I’m surprised Labour aren’t pushing for a referendum, would the losing side accept it?

[Lancasterclaret]

Whilst I fully agree with your point, which is why I’m surprised Labour aren’t pushing for a referendum, would the losing side accept it?

Surely you make it legally binding then?

Look, I'm not going to lie here, I want us to leave with a deal because its better than a "No Deal" but am I ever going to believe that flag waving "just believe in Britain" ******** and mythical trade deals with countries we already have very good ones with is better than being in the EU?

Not a chance.

But if its legally binding, then we put this one to bed for the immediate future.

(same argument works for those who believe in completely the opposite)

[Spijed]

Sounds like the Conservatives are having a massive row of a pre WAB election or post.

From Twitter they think the Brexit party could do them serious damage

[Lancasterclaret]

Worth mentioning again that the Conservatives and the Brexit Party are disagreeing that this is the Brexit that was voted for.

Which does mean that this deal isn't what every Brexiteer voted for, so thats a fairly huge hole in the Brexiteer argument.

[Quickenthetempo]

The London Evening Standard?

How often do you read that in Burnley?

Osborne is the toe rag, with a face you could punch for hours.

[Jakubclaret]

Worth mentioning again that the Conservatives and the Brexit Party are disagreeing that this is the Brexit that was voted for.

Which does mean that this deal isn't what every Brexiteer voted for, so thats a fairly huge hole in the Brexiteer argument.

I wouldn’t necessarily be drawing them conclusions, people within the brexit party are more hard brexit whilst predominantly the tories will be moderate, to spin this you could simply ask people within the Liberal Democrat’s & labour how fully they’d like to remain within the EU & the LDs & the labour differences will be likely, point being you are not going to get everybody agreeing, it’s no big issue like you are trying to portray. It’s workable.

[KateR]

You seem not to know the difference between physical and paper checks.

And you haven’t managed to answer my question about what the form is for (answering with another question not being an actual answer).

Edit - oh, and this is nothing like a self-assessment tax return. Your analogy doesn’t work on any level, except there’s a form to fill in.

I was asking about the very same thing with LC yesterday, a form in definitely not a check, not unless someone who gives you the form checks it, stops you on your journey and slows you down meaning more time is taken in getting from A to B, I believe you know this but are using every little bit of argument you can because of attitude to the Leaving/Tories/BJ rather than any rational thought.

I travel a lot, many times on an airplane I have to complete a form regarding customs and hand it to someone as I pass, I may have to queue with others doing the same but at no point does the form slow my passage. I may have to apply for a via for certain countries before I can fly but it never actual slows my journey down.

Additionally the name of the form is a "Summary" form, so I will deduce from this that it is not a lengthy form and it is sent electronically, this is not IMO a check, it is merely part of the business of transport, I am positive that a manifest is required before transport leaves, these must be done by every company and no one has been complaining about these being a check to the best of my knowledge. Of course a reduction in any paperwork is what any company wants but I think you're the one playing semantics and making a mountain out of a molehill here.

[martin_p]

I wouldn’t necessarily be drawing them conclusions, people within the brexit party are more hard brexit whilst predominantly the tories will be moderate, to spin this you could simply ask people within the Liberal Democrat’s & labour how fully they’d like to remain within the EU & the LDs & the labour differences will be likely, point being you are not going to get everybody agreeing, it’s no big issue like you are trying to portray. It’s workable.

Point me to these different views on how fully they’d like to remain.

[Lancasterclaret]

I was asking about the very same thing with LC yesterday, a form in definitely not a check, not unless someone who gives you the form checks it, stops you on your journey and slows you down meaning more time is taken in getting from A to B, I believe you know this but are using every little bit of argument you can because of attitude to the Leaving/Tories/BJ rather than any rational thought.

I travel a lot, many times on an airplane I have to complete a form regarding customs and hand it to someone as I pass, I may have to queue with others doing the same but at no point does the form slow my passage. I may have to apply for a via for certain countries before I can fly but it never actual slows my journey down.

Additionally the name of the form is a "Summary" form, so I will deduce from this that it is not a lengthy form and it is sent electronically, this is not IMO a check, it is merely part of the business of transport, I am positive that a manifest is required before transport leaves, these must be done by every company and no one has been complaining about these being a check to the best of my knowledge. Of course a reduction in any paperwork is what any company wants but I think you're the one playing semantics and making a mountain out of a molehill here.

Hang on a sec

Its a check, because it has to be filled in and will (potentially) be checked.

If you want to believe thats not a check, then feel free but it is.

And its not something that NI/GB industry has to do now.

[Lancasterclaret]

I wouldn’t necessarily be drawing them conclusions, people within the brexit party are more hard brexit whilst predominantly the tories will be moderate, to spin this you could simply ask people within the Liberal Democrat’s & labour how fully they’d like to remain within the EU & the LDs & the labour differences will be likely, point being you are not going to get everybody agreeing, it’s no big issue like you are trying to portray. It’s workable.

Its doesn't matter if its workable or not.

Its essentially even more evidence (already on this thread) that the extreme Brexiteers want a different Brexit to the moderate ones.

You can't tell that from a simple "Yes" or "No" answer to a question about leaving the EU.

[martin_p]

I was asking about the very same thing with LC yesterday, a form in definitely not a check, not unless someone who gives you the form checks it, stops you on your journey and slows you down meaning more time is taken in getting from A to B, I believe you know this but are using every little bit of argument you can because of attitude to the Leaving/Tories/BJ rather than any rational thought.

I travel a lot, many times on an airplane I have to complete a form regarding customs and hand it to someone as I pass, I may have to queue with others doing the same but at no point does the form slow my passage. I may have to apply for a via for certain countries before I can fly but it never actual slows my journey down.

Additionally the name of the form is a "Summary" form, so I will deduce from this that it is not a lengthy form and it is sent electronically, this is not IMO a check, it is merely part of the business of transport, I am positive that a manifest is required before transport leaves, these must be done by every company and no one has been complaining about these being a check to the best of my knowledge. Of course a reduction in any paperwork is what any company wants but I think you're the one playing semantics and making a mountain out of a molehill here.

All those other things you mention you do because you’re crossing a border.

A visa is usually to ascertain, authorise and restrict the purpose of you visit to a country. The visa will be used as a check when a foreign national tries to do something like work to make sure you have the authority to do so.

A customs declaration is to check what you’re bringing into a country.

I’ll ask you what I asked dsr, what are these forms for moving goods between NI and the rest of the UK for?

[Jakubclaret]

Point me to these different views on how fully they’d like to remain.

You only have to Google liberal Democrats website & the first thing you see is we believe we are better off within the EU, that's a very broad direct message what the party believes in, whilst Labour are more split. You look at the manifestos, party policies/pledges ect, I'm not doing homework for you, you are capable of going onto the websites & comparing the differences, you'll spot the divisions soon enough.

[dsr]

Hang on a sec

Its a check, because it has to be filled in and will (potentially) be checked.

If you want to believe thats not a check, then feel free but it is.

And its not something that NI/GB industry has to do now.

Then why were so so uptight about needing a physical border to check exports from RoI to UK and vice versa, when you now say that every single export in either direction is already being checked?

[dsr]

All those other things you mention you do because you’re crossing a border.

A visa is usually to ascertain, authorise and restrict the purpose of you visit to a country. The visa will be used as a check when a foreign national tries to do something like work to make sure you have the authority to do so.

A customs declaration is to check what you’re bringing into a country.

I’ll ask you what I asked dsr, what are these forms for moving goods between NI and the rest of the UK for?

Don't know. Any more than I know what Intrastat forms are for, or forms recording exports from the UK to the EU are for. The Government has its own inscrutable ways. But the EU and the UK have decided that they are forms to be filled in for this particular transaction.

I don't see why you are so determined to call this a valid check on movement of goods when you were so determined that my ideas of electronic monitoring of goods movement from UK to RoI was no check at all. If having (electronic) paperwork is a check on trade from UK to NI, then it was equally a check from UK to RoI. If it wasn't, it wasn't. You can't have it both ways.

[martin_p]

You only have to Google liberal Democrats website & the first thing you see is we believe we are better off within the EU, that's a very broad direct message what the party believes in, whilst Labour are more split. You look at the manifestos, party policies/pledges ect, I'm not doing homework for you, you are capable of going onto the websites & comparing the differences, you'll spot the divisions soon enough.

But Lancaster pointed out that very clearly not everyone wanted the same Brexit (further exposing the lie that ‘everyone knew what leave meant’). You implied there was similar ambiguity on the remain side. Where is it?

[willsclarets]

Its doesn't matter if its workable or not.

Its essentially even more evidence (already on this thread) that the extreme Brexiteers want a different Brexit to the moderate ones.

You can't tell that from a simple "Yes" or "No" answer to a question about leaving the EU.

Especially since the flags on what kind of brexit is being sold by any one person, have moved immeasurably since the vote in 2016. What's apparently unacceptable one minute is acceptable the next.

[KateR]

Hang on a sec

Its a check, because it has to be filled in and will (potentially) be checked.

If you want to believe thats not a check, then feel free but it is.

And its not something that NI/GB industry has to do now.

LC, I value your opinion but please think about this and then come back with your answer:

1 person in Gov has said there will be an electronic summary form to be filled in, no question from me it is needed unless someone officially says it is not.

1 person in Gov has said there will be no checks, therefore I am believing that until someone says different.

You and others need to come back with some substantial evidence regarding that this summary form will actually be used to stop some form of transportation and physically check it against a summary declaration, then it is a check. Therefore no I strongly disagree with your interpretation of check, that therefore is semantics, I agree 100% with you if it is part of a process that requires said check/stop/delay to transportation and also stated no one wants extra paperwork.

I totally agree it is not something that has to be done today, I think there will be many things that change when we leave, this seems minor to me today with what I know, it still does not make it a check that is physical, it may lead to a stop/check if someone forgets to fill it in as part of a new process but that in and of itself does not make it a check sorry.

It is not that I want to believe this, I am talking about facts today that I know of, if these changed recently then clearly I am wrong. Additionally in our discussion yesterday I also asked about Trusted Trader status in application to this but as I understand it no one knows how this applies to them. I am sure as the days unfold and as we are sure that all the experts within the MP's who are scrutinizing this will tell us via twitter etc and then we will have the usual replies explaining the interpretations.

[martin_p]

Don't know. Any more than I know what Intrastat forms are for, or forms recording exports from the UK to the EU are for. The Government has its own inscrutable ways. But the EU and the UK have decided that they are forms to be filled in for this particular transaction.

I don't see why you are so determined to call this a valid check on movement of goods when you were so determined that my ideas of electronic monitoring of goods movement from UK to RoI was no check at all. If having (electronic) paperwork is a check on trade from UK to NI, then it was equally a check from UK to RoI. If it wasn't, it wasn't. You can't have it both ways.

You’re rewriting history here. I’ve never claimed electronic checks weren’t checks. But the technology isn’t ready for full electronic checks across the Irish border. But checks are checks, and these are new ones on the internal UK market. Can you imagine the uproar if this additional form filling was required for deliveries from every part of the UK to another part of the uk?

[KateR]

Especially since the flags on what kind of brexit is being sold by any one person, have moved immeasurably since the vote in 2016. What's apparently unacceptable one minute is acceptable the next.

Very poor bait you are using these days, not sure you will even get one bite with this one, hopefully not but..........

[willsclarets]

Very poor bait you are using these days, not sure you will even get one bite with this one, hopefully not but..........

I think my point there is unarguable to be fair.

[martin_p]

LC, I value your opinion but please think about this and then come back with your answer:

1 person in Gov has said there will be an electronic summary form to be filled in, no question from me it is needed unless someone officially says it is not.

1 person in Gov has said there will be no checks, therefore I am believing that until someone says different.

You and others need to come back with some substantial evidence regarding that this summary form will actually be used to stop some form of transportation and physically check it against a summary declaration, then it is a check. Therefore no I strongly disagree with your interpretation of check, that therefore is semantics, I agree 100% with you if it is part of a process that requires said check/stop/delay to transportation and also stated no one wants extra paperwork.

I totally agree it is not something that has to be done today, I think there will be many things that change when we leave, this seems minor to me today with what I know, it still does not make it a check that is physical, it may lead to a stop/check if someone forgets to fill it in as part of a new process but that in and of itself does not make it a check sorry.

It is not that I want to believe this, I am talking about facts today that I know of, if these changed recently then clearly I am wrong. Additionally in our discussion yesterday I also asked about Trusted Trader status in application to this but as I understand it no one knows how this applies to them. I am sure as the days unfold and as we are sure that all the experts within the MP's who are scrutinizing this will tell us via twitter etc and then we will have the usual replies explaining the interpretations.

But you only make a list of anything so that it can be checked (and I’m in no way implying that everyone will be) whether it be a shopping list or a customs declaration. What’s the point of a list otherwise?

[Jakubclaret]

But Lancaster pointed out that very clearly not everyone wanted the same Brexit (further exposing the lie that ‘everyone knew what leave meant’). You implied there was similar ambiguity on the remain side. Where is it?

Yes regarding the CU & SM, some want both, some want 1, & level of detail at odds, you'd struggle to find everybody agreeing, might as well merge into 1 party if they did agree on everything regarding all policies, Jo swinson & Jeremy corbyn are transmitting mixed messages within the respective parties.

[dsr]

But Lancaster pointed out that very clearly not everyone wanted the same Brexit (further exposing the lie that ‘everyone knew what leave meant’). You implied there was similar ambiguity on the remain side. Where is it?

The 48% includes people who think the EU is a wonderful organisation and a better system of government that our own; people who think that free trade within the EU is the primary thing that brings wealth to the country and they can't bear to lose it; people who don't really like the EU but were convinced by the (ultimately false) figures about instant and long term recession; people who want the EU to expand, people who don't; people who want to be in the Euro, people who don't; people who want an EU army, people who don't; people who believe our veto goes on for ever, people who don't.

What they have in common, of course, is that whatever they want in detail is irrelevant. When it comes down to it, what they get is whatever is agreed between the 28 EU countries. They don't all get a bespoke deal. The question was whether they wanted to be in the EU with all its uncertainties, or whether they wanted out. They couldn't pick and choose what the future relationship would be.

[martin_p]

Yes regarding the CU & SM, some want both, some want 1, & level of detail at odds, you'd struggle to find everybody agreeing, might as well merge into 1 party if they did agree on everything regarding all policies, Jo swinson & Jeremy corbyn are transmitting mixed messages within the respective parties.

Well the ones that don’t want to remain in any one of the EU markets/customs union etc don’t want to remain they want to leave. We’re either members with what we have now or we’re not members with access or not to bits of the EU. There is no ambiguity about what remaining in the EU means.

[KateR]

I think my point there is unarguable to be fair.

LOL, really, knock yourself out with that one then

[Jakubclaret]

Well the ones that don’t want to remain in any one of the EU markets/customs union etc don’t want to remain they want to leave. We’re either members with what we have now or we’re not members with access or not to bits of the EU. There is no ambiguity about what remaining in the EU means.

That's your interpretation & individual stance.

[Lancasterclaret]

Then why were so so uptight about needing a physical border to check exports from RoI to UK and vice versa, when you now say that every single export in either direction is already being checked?

So you still think a physical border between the North and the South would be fine?

I do wish you'd start to listen, but then again English voters who want Brexit seemingly are prepared to throw anything under a bus to make sure they get what they want*

*which of course varies from person to person

[martin_p]

The 48% includes people who think the EU is a wonderful organisation and a better system of government that our own; people who think that free trade within the EU is the primary thing that brings wealth to the country and they can't bear to lose it; people who don't really like the EU but were convinced by the (ultimately false) figures about instant and long term recession; people who want the EU to expand, people who don't; people who want to be in the Euro, people who don't; people who want an EU army, people who don't; people who believe our veto goes on for ever, people who don't.

What they have in common, of course, is that whatever they want in detail is irrelevant. When it comes down to it, what they get is whatever is agreed between the 28 EU countries. They don't all get a bespoke deal. The question was whether they wanted to be in the EU with all its uncertainties, or whether they wanted out. They couldn't pick and choose what the future relationship would be.

You mean we don’t get the bespoke deal we have around monetary union and the Schengen area for example? The UK would continue to have a veto and negotiate opt-outs like it does now. Remainers all want to stay in the EU on the current terms and address the future as and when it arrives by being part of the decision making process like we are now.

[willsclarets]

LOL, really, knock yourself out with that one then

Are you really trying to claim that there's been consistency from the leave campaign and the brexiteers therein since 2016, on what kind of brexit they wanted and/or would accept?


“Under no circumstances... will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea."

[martin_p]

That's your interpretation & individual stance.

No, that’s just a fact.

[Lancasterclaret]

LC, I value your opinion but please think about this and then come back with your answer:

1 person in Gov has said there will be an electronic summary form to be filled in, no question from me it is needed unless someone officially says it is not.

1 person in Gov has said there will be no checks, therefore I am believing that until someone says different.

You and others need to come back with some substantial evidence regarding that this summary form will actually be used to stop some form of transportation and physically check it against a summary declaration, then it is a check. Therefore no I strongly disagree with your interpretation of check, that therefore is semantics, I agree 100% with you if it is part of a process that requires said check/stop/delay to transportation and also stated no one wants extra paperwork.

I totally agree it is not something that has to be done today, I think there will be many things that change when we leave, this seems minor to me today with what I know, it still does not make it a check that is physical, it may lead to a stop/check if someone forgets to fill it in as part of a new process but that in and of itself does not make it a check sorry.

It is not that I want to believe this, I am talking about facts today that I know of, if these changed recently then clearly I am wrong. Additionally in our discussion yesterday I also asked about Trusted Trader status in application to this but as I understand it no one knows how this applies to them. I am sure as the days unfold and as we are sure that all the experts within the MP's who are scrutinizing this will tell us via twitter etc and then we will have the usual replies explaining the interpretations.

Similar answer I'm afraid

- this is a check that we currently don't do now UK-NI
- there will be actual checks on agricultural products/foodstuffs

I'm not sure, but its possible that there could be more checks NI-GB than there could be NI-EU.

[willsclarets]

Very poor bait you are using these days, not sure you will even get one bite with this one, hopefully not but..........

Also, please don't characterise me as someone who has trolled this thread. I've made a number of lengthy contributions and none of them were "fishing" of any kind.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yes regarding the CU & SM, some want both, some want 1, & level of detail at odds, you'd struggle to find everybody agreeing, might as well merge into 1 party if they did agree on everything regarding all policies, Jo swinson & Jeremy corbyn are transmitting mixed messages within the respective parties.

No, you are missing the point spectacularly.

All those people are people who want to remain, but want to compromise on our deal so we leave with the best possible deal for the UK

All of them want to remain first and foremost.

[Devils_Advocate]

The 48% includes people who think the EU is a wonderful organisation and a better system of government that our own; people who think that free trade within the EU is the primary thing that brings wealth to the country and they can't bear to lose it; people who don't really like the EU but were convinced by the (ultimately false) figures about instant and long term recession; people who want the EU to expand, people who don't; people who want to be in the Euro, people who don't; people who want an EU army, people who don't; people who believe our veto goes on for ever, people who don't.

What they have in common, of course, is that whatever they want in detail is irrelevant. When it comes down to it, what they get is whatever is agreed between the 28 EU countries. They don't all get a bespoke deal. The question was whether they wanted to be in the EU with all its uncertainties, or whether they wanted out. They couldn't pick and choose what the future relationship would be.

What a load of nonsense. The 48% who voted remain may all have different views on the EU and our relationship with it however they vote was just to remain a member and that is what all of them agree should happen as a result of their vote (there aren't multiple ways of enacting this result).

The 52% voted simply to end our membership of the EU however their is a multitude of ways to doing this and the problem is due to the simplicity of the question no persons view is any more valid than another persons view. We could end our membership and leave the EU whist remaining in the CU but you would not accept that and would reject it has fulfilled the vote even though it has done what it said on the proverbial tin

I think this point is resurfacing because Brexiteers have been quite adamant and arrogant that you all knew what you voted for and you were all aligned but suddenly you are arguing amongst yourselves about what it is.

The thing is DSR, you know all this because you are about the most disingenuous and untruthful person on here but you like to pedal your lies to try and confuse the truth and get people who don't fully understand whats going on to support your position

[KateR]

But you only make a list of anything so that it can be checked (and I’m in no way implying that everyone will be) whether it be a shopping list or a customs declaration. What’s the point of a list otherwise?

The point is "It can be used as a check if so desired". It doesn't make it a physical check, which you and others are alluding to, if it was a physical stop, and check against an electronic summary form the I would 100% agree that is ridiculous. They may well start with random stops as the system is introduced, these would be stops/checks/delay, but it would I believe quickly be reduced from say 1 in 100 to 1 in 1,000, to 1 in 10,000, again these are just my thoughts. Surely you can actually think of things from different angles rather than just going with the negative every time as an example of why it is bad to leave.

As I said before, I fill in 100's of customs declarations forms when traveling, USA a good example, it is a form that is required for entry, you have to declare what you are bringing in, it was always a hard piece of paper, check box's, complete name and passport details. I have been stopped once and had baggage physically checked because I stated something on the form they thought might be illegal, they physically wanted to see it, they realized it was ok, off you go. In that one instance only in many many years I was stopped, checked and delayed.

That said paper form today is electronic and when I enter the USA it automatically adds my name, passport details etc leaving me to quickly tick boxes as it also checks my passport, my picture and fingerprints, I see no delays and the electronic system allows me to move through faster. In addition, at the end of the line of the same systems, these allow people who have completed the steps to become trusted to move through even faster, this could maybe be applicable to Trusted Traders.

[martin_p]

Democracy denying remoaner John Bercow has failed to select the Lib Dem’s referendum amendment to the Queen’s Speech for debate. But he’s still clearly a biased remoaner who will do everything in his power to stop Brexit.

[Spijed]

No, you are missing the point spectacularly.

All those people are people who want to remain, but want to compromise on our deal so we leave with the best possible deal for the UK

All of them want to remain first and foremost.

With regards to the debate in the Conservative party as to when to hold an election, perhaps they've looked at internal polling data which suggests an outright majority isnt clear cut whichever way they go. Otherwise I'd think they would go full steam ahead in one direction.

[KateR]

Also, please don't characterise me as someone who has trolled this thread. I've made a number of lengthy contributions and none of them were "fishing" of any kind.

If you say so, I'm sure you believe it, that's what counts.

[martin_p]

The point is "It can be used as a check if so desired". It doesn't make it a physical check, which you and others are alluding to, if it was a physical stop, and check against an electronic summary form the I would 100% agree that is ridiculous.

Nope, I haven’t mentioned physical checks (except to say a check is a check whether it’s physical or paper based).

[Lancasterclaret]

The point is "It can be used as a check if so desired". It doesn't make it a physical check, which you and others are alluding to, if it was a physical stop, and check against an electronic summary form the I would 100% agree that is ridiculous. They may well start with random stops as the system is introduced, these would be stops/checks/delay, but it would I believe quickly be reduced from say 1 in 100 to 1 in 1,000, to 1 in 10,000, again these are just my thoughts. Surely you can actually think of things from different angles rather than just going with the negative every time as an example of why it is bad to leave.

As I said before, I fill in 100's of customs declarations forms when traveling, USA a good example, it is a form that is required for entry, you have to declare what you are bringing in, it was always a hard piece of paper, check box's, complete name and passport details. I have been stopped once and had baggage physically checked because I stated something on the form they thought might be illegal, they physically wanted to see it, they realized it was ok, off you go. In that one instance only in many many years I was stopped, checked and delayed.

That said paper form today is electronic and when I enter the USA it automatically adds my name, passport details etc leaving me to quickly tick boxes as it also checks my passport, my picture and fingerprints, I see no delays and the electronic system allows me to move through faster. In addition, at the end of the line of the same systems, these allow people who have completed the steps to become trusted to move through even faster, this could maybe be applicable to Trusted Traders.

You are comparing your trip to the US with a trailer load of groupage destined for both GB and the EU?

No offence Kate, but that is not even remotely similar.

[KateR]

Similar answer I'm afraid

- this is a check that we currently don't do now UK-NI
- there will be actual checks on agricultural products/foodstuffs

I'm not sure, but its possible that there could be more checks NI-GB than there could be NI-EU.

I think it is right to be afraid, I think it is right to question, I think it is right to want definitive answers, but just for the sake of agreement perhaps we could term things checks = electronic forms, physical checks = stopping/delaying any form of transport.

I certainly don't know what will happen and how this will be put into "thou shall do". However I believe some people are taking things, twisting them for there own ends and saying statements like facts that are fake, when I see it I will ask, try to understand more and call it out if I believe it's fake.

For the sake of mere laymen, I would think the majority of people when asked about "you are going to be checked" - "what does that mean to you" They would reply "being stopped" Just my opinion, I have no proof of this.