Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:54 pm

That is because I am fairly reasonable!

I really worry about the future of the UK if we don't get this right.

I'd rather **** off every single remainer or leaver I know if its guaranteed that the UK stays together.

Astonishing though it may be, to hear that the DUP are Unionist first, and Brexiteers second gives me a glimmer of hope that we can navigate a path through this.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:55 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Okay, again, Hungary went right at about the same time as Spain went left. Portugal has probably the worlds most successful socialist government, everyone goes on about the AfD in Germany but their rise isn't as big as the rise of the Greens etc etc etc.

Is the rise of the far right an issue that Europe has to face?

Definitely!

But a reason to pretend that a 20 mile stretch of water means its nothing to do with us?

You might want to read up on some history there mate.

EDIT - and everyone is biased one way or another in this. Honesty is required for us to move forward.

Again I just see it differently to you:- I see Spain about to tear itself apart. I have National Socialist Right and you national socialist Left soon playing tig in Europe. I see French troops formerly ordered to shoot certain category threat protesters on the streets of France.

I just see a different Europe to you.... and that water has served us well in the past.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:59 pm

summitclaret wrote:I am serious about it. I have long held the view that the EU and particularly the Commission are bullies. It needs a Thatcher type PM to stand up to them.

Its needs a GE mandate to say we want a deal but we will leave 2 years after re envoking A 50 if we don't get one. This is where a new PM comes in. The tory party will put that leader in place.

Every f.ucker since Heath has tried standing up to the EU, but then the realpolitik hits them like a truck. I don't know if you people have taken your old black & white war films a little too much to heart, but they weren't documentaries. Let's call no-deal what it is: a semi-retreat from the world. No-deal is technically achievable, obviously, but the fundamental point is that is isn't done without consequence - the kind of consequence any and every government will try to avoid as a duty, or at the least, to preserve its own authority. Dominic Raab can snort as much blow as he likes and beat his chest as much as he likes and flap his gums as much as you like, but if he takes such intransigent attitudes into Council meetings he'll be utterly mutilated, and we plebs will be the ones paying the price for it.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:00 am

Again I just see it differently to you:- I see Spain about to tear itself apart. I have National Socialist Right and you national socialist Left soon playing tig in Europe. I see French troops formerly ordered to shoot certain category threat protesters on the streets of France.

I just see a different Europe to you.... and that water has served us well in the past.

You act like its a new thing though.

France has been in a state of emergency for about eight (maybe longer) years, and have always had a very robust reaction to civil disorder.

Italy has been a basket case of governments since I've been born

Spain was a fascist dictatorship when I was born

And all the Eastern European countries were ruled from Moscow.

All that has happened in my 46 year old life. And we are all still here. And so is the European Dream, and so is the longest period of peace in European history.

Look for the positives, rather than the negatives of Europe. There are a hell of a lot more of them than there are negatives.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:10 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:You act like its a new thing though.

France has been in a state of emergency for about eight (maybe longer) years, and have always had a very robust reaction to civil disorder.

Italy has been a basket case of governments since I've been born

Spain was a fascist dictatorship when I was born

And all the Eastern European countries were ruled from Moscow.

All that has happened in my 46 year old life. And we are all still here. And so is the European Dream, and so is the longest period of peace in European history.

Look for the positives, rather than the negatives of Europe. There are a hell of a lot more of them than there are negatives.

Haha. I was reading a Document the other day DD100 from the Austrian Foreign Secretary to the Austrian government, that was more reassuring to be honest... it was full of how Britain was now neutral, France was broke, and all the monarchy's of Europe will rally behind the strike in the protection of Monarchy.... I'd just prefer to keep my distance if possible, just in case.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:12 am

From 1914?

With the greatest respect, that's nothing like now.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:13 am

elwaclaret wrote:MY decision to vote leave had more to do with the rise of extremist nationalism in Europe and not wanting to be still in when it turned into a bear pit.

One of the more interesting reason's I've heard, genuinely.
Do you see the irony though of voting for Brexit, something which has only embolden extreme nationalism in the UK to the point where Tommy Robinson gave a speech to the 'Leave Means Leave' group today in Whitehall.
To use that often misunderstood sentence structure: Brexit is not extreme nationalism but all extreme nationalists voted for Brexit.

Surely If you want to stop something from happening you do it from your powerful seat at the table rather than walking away from it.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:21 am

CombatClaret wrote:One of the more interesting reason's I've heard, genuinely.
Do you see the irony though of voting for Brexit, something which has only embolden extreme nationalism in the UK to the point where Tommy Robinson gave a speech to the 'Leave Means Leave' group today in Whitehall.
To use that often misunderstood sentence structure: Brexit is not extreme nationalism but all extreme nationalists voted for Brexit.

Surely If you want to stop something from happening you do it from your powerful seat at the table rather than walking away from it.

I fully accept your point. But my opinion our far right is minor league to those of Europe: they are badly led and largely identifiable. If South Carolina declares independence its an irritant that needs sorting.... when the Confederacy agrees with them it becomes a major problem to use a metaphor.

I just see a Europe full of Corbyns and Faragesses running things and Lord that frightens me.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:28 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:From 1914?

With the greatest respect, that's nothing like now.

Hahahahahahahah. You're the first person to say that.... I still wouldn't attack Russia in winter

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:29 am

Lancaster reminds me of Neville Chamberlain.

It's good to talk, until it's too late.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:33 am

elwaclaret wrote:I fully accept your point. But my opinion our far right is minor league to those of Europe: they are badly led and largely identifiable. If South Carolina declares independence its an irritant that needs sorting.... when the Confederacy agrees with them it becomes a major problem to use a metaphor.

I just see a Europe full of Corbyns and Faragesses running things and Lord that frightens me.

Disempowering ourselves to be able act on those developments solves nothing, and membership doesn't actually pose any greater threat than being outside the tent. The notion that membership equates to contamination from the basket cases of Europe is an entirely abstract fiction. Show me a tangible way in which morons in Italy or Greece or Hungary have a detrimental impact on the UK that could hypothetically be avoided by not being a member. Bear in mind we aren't a part of the eurozone; the monetary policy and debt crisis arguments don't hold.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:43 am

elwaclaret wrote:Hahahahahahahah. You're the first person to say that.... I still wouldn't attack Russia in winter

Sorry Lancaster, it's just EVERY generation from the written word, have explained how much more civilized and learned they are than their predecessors and that we would be too clever not to see the signs.... just like the Strictly secret communicate less than a week before, those in the very heart of it did for WWI. We always know better and yet we never learn.... things go in cycles, fashion, politics... cycles. Nationalism is on the rise and has been for some time. It seems that it has just got worse since I first decided to leave was "time to go".

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:48 am

Spiral wrote:Disempowering ourselves to be able act on those developments solves nothing, and membership doesn't actually pose any greater threat than being outside the tent. The notion that membership equates to contamination from the basket cases of Europe is an entirely abstract fiction. Show me a tangible way in which morons in Italy or Greece or Hungary have a detrimental impact on the UK that could hypothetically be avoided by not being a member. Bear in mind we aren't a part of the eurozone; the monetary policy and debt crisis arguments don't hold.

Far left and far right Nationalists are not known to a. agree or b. compromise.... a bit like this bloody mess. Why the hell do we want an extreme version of the shambles going on in parliament?

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:49 am

The younger generation trying to brainwash the older generation & being schooled, comedy personified

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:03 am

elwaclaret wrote:Far left and far right Nationalists are not known to a. agree or b. compromise.... a bit like this bloody mess. Why the hell do we want an extreme version of the shambles going on in parliament?

Again, it's rhetoric. Can you demonstrate where far left and far right nationalists have effected material change on our politics as a member of the EU? I'm struggling. In recent memory, Orban caused a bit of a carfuffle during the refugee crisis a few years ago. Syriza thought they could psychotic-girlfriend-suicide-threat the EU into bending. Both got back in their box. Both events will be viewed through the lens of history as minor irritations. Wherever and whenever have the crackpots caused us any sort of peril? What does it look like? How do, say, Italian nationalists affect us materially? I don't care for how it 'feels', I'm interested in how...ahem..."The Rise of *Noun* in Western Democracy" tangibly impacts us, or how secession from the EU in any way protects us from "The rise of *Noun* in Western Democracy". Folk are pathologically obsessed with narrative. Unless you can show me how idiots electing other idiots to government and to the European Parliament somehow makes us less safe, stable, influential or prosperous, your rhetoric is nothing more than reactionary sensationalism.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:04 am

Not yet. And I accept your opinion. I am not the oracle merely explaining my position.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:11 am

That's fair enough, obviously. I'm just trying to understand your position because it sounds completely nutty to me. I don't mean any offence, by the way. But it's still hysterical sounding.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:33 am

Spiral wrote:That's fair enough, obviously. I'm just trying to understand your position because it sounds completely nutty to me. I don't mean any offence, by the way. But it's still hysterical sounding.

Not hysterical in the slightest. I'm looking on in wonder at histories cycles and as I said earlier, every generation thinks its better, clever and more civilized than the last. I see various conversations that are repeated throughout history. It may be nutty but I prefer to revise to learn lessons than repeat the same mistakes, and history tells you what you might expect. Europe has forgotten what it's like to be truly factional... I expect them to start to find out how things can fall apart when you get two definite Nationalist camps, who can't even agree if nationalist means for the people or for the nation state.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:00 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:Just how cheap is this “cheap EU labour”? Maybe you should report all the businesses who are employing them for less than NMW.

How would you suggest I do that? & if I did do you think anybody would listen or act. I interpret that it’s some sort of suggestion that I go around all the restaurants & takeaways & some businesses & get them to admit to me & more importantly provide evidence to me openly that they are paying below NMW & often cash in hand, I’d also need the workers also to corrobate this, yeh that sounds easy, cakewalk, I should have thought about that idea earlier.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:16 am

Grieve loses vote of confidence in his constituency and could now be deselected. There is nothing wrong with principles but after doing everything possible to undermine Brexit he can't complain.

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:23 am

Jakubclaret wrote:How would you suggest I do that? & if I did do you think anybody would listen or act. I interpret that it’s some sort of suggestion that I go around all the restaurants & takeaways & some businesses & get them to admit to me & more importantly provide evidence to me openly that they are paying below NMW & often cash in hand, I’d also need the workers also to corrobate this, yeh that sounds easy, cakewalk, I should have thought about that idea earlier.

If you did have evidence you would report it to ACAS or HMRC. Serious cases are reported to police or HSE under Gangmaster (Licensing)Act 2004.

It’s interesting that you constantly go on about foreign workers undercutting indigenous workers and the youth of Britain not having a chance to work yet you have (and I hesitate to use the word) no evidence. Who are you listening to? You seem to be one of those people who believe in Schrodinger’s immigrant.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:35 am

Burnley Ace wrote:If you did have evidence you would report it to ACAS or HMRC. Serious cases are reported to police or HSE under Gangmaster (Licensing)Act 2004.

It’s interesting that you constantly go on about foreign workers undercutting indigenous workers and the youth of Britain not having a chance to work yet you have (and I hesitate to use the word) no evidence. Who are you listening to? You seem to be one of those people who believe in Schrodinger’s immigrant.

I know it’s happening & plenty of others do as well, obtaining evidence would mean recorded surveillance & reliance on people breaking the law becoming honest. It’s not my job to expose this & the size of the task in hand & with limited resources the prospect of success is slim, but let’s just all pretend this is not happening & let the honest British citizen struggling struggle, it’s the easiest option for everybody.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:37 am

summitclaret wrote:Grieve loses vote of confidence in his constituency and could now be deselected. There is nothing wrong with principles but after doing everything possible to undermine Brexit he can't complain.

That’s good, he can stand as an independent and take a good portion of the Tory vote and probably some remainers from across other parties.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:39 am

Dominic Grieve to be deselected ...and so it begins

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... eld-tories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:08 am

Spiral wrote:No-deal brexit would be a seismic event in UK politics comparable to the shock that economic sanctions have on nation states, for which the people who engineered it - hardcore brexiteers, despite however much the Tories may try to pin it on Labour in the coming elections - will not be soon forgiven. I'm not saying we'll turn into the Gaza strip overnight, that'd be ridiculous, but most folk are accustomed to a degree of relative comfort in this country and that won't be surrendered quite so easily, or, to put it more accurately, won't be forgotten when it's pulled out from under their feet when the job losses begin. I think you're massively overestimating the ferocity that normal, otherwise politically disengaged people have for brexit, and massively underestimating the macroeconomic consequences. To reiterate what I've said earlier, in absence of a trade deal which might well be contingent upon acceptance of the terms of the WA anyway, I think WTO is politically untenable even in the short-term, and the surest way of guaranteeing rejoining the EU in the future on worse terms than we had (another thing for which brexiteers will never be forgiven). To put it bluntly, most folk simply don't care fore the puritanical piety of 'true brexit' and couldn't even adequately describe what that means. The result only ever got over the line on the day because it promised to improve the lot of normal folk. If you get your way and folk inevitably begin to suffer, your political worldview will be discredited for two generations.

I think you underestimate people. I dont agree that the economic hit would be massive, it might well be a step backwards but nothing to worry about.
We've been part of the EU for long enough. The vote to leave was hopefully based on the next 50+ years, nearly all the negativity coming from this board and others are based on the economic hit of the next 6 to 12 months. I dont even see the hit.
There will be winners and losers whatever we do, the long term benefit of being outside the EU is enormous.
Italy, Spain, Ireland, Greece Portugal are all skint most of them with banks on the verge of collapse. France and Germany economies are slowing down, quite possibly heading for recession. The next world recession could hit the EU off the park. They aren't in any sort of position to fight it, and Germany cant do it on it's own.
The British economy is thriving, despite jumping off a cliff 3 years ago, and being run by the biggest bunch of muppets in 400 years.
When the next recession hits, and it inevitably will, the benefit we gain from being outside the EU will dwarf any possible hit we get from leaving.
Trading under WTO isn't dependent on anything other than us saying that's what we want. That's why its there as the fallback for countries who disagree on trade terms. Germany do 15% of their exports with the UK. Their economy is already suffering. Do you honestly believe that they wont want to come to terms over a trade deal. The EU are the fly in the ointment, because they just want to stick a knife in us, but can Germany afford to let the EU cut their nose off. I dont think so. Where Germany lead, the rest will follow.
The European elections are going to be a massive wake up call to the Federalists in Brussels and could well be a complete game changer when it comes to negotiations.
As for the Tories blaming Labour. Labour constituencies overwhelmingly voted leave. Corbyn had argued against being in the EU for 30 years. MPs on both sides of the house stood on Brexit, only now when it appears to be more important to stick it to the Tories than stand by your principles, on a subject that can define this country for the next couple of generations, they decide to play party politics. If that isn't Labours fault, whose is it.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:14 am

elwaclaret wrote:Far left and far right Nationalists are not known to a. agree or b. compromise.... a bit like this bloody mess. Why the hell do we want an extreme version of the shambles going on in parliament?

So your solution is to compromise by letting them win both over there and over here?

It's a long time since I did my degree in history (with a politics spin off) and your argument is certainly not new, but your conclusion certainly is.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:20 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:I think you underestimate people. I dont agree that the economic hit would be massive, it might well be a step backwards but nothing to worry about.
We've been part of the EU for long enough. The vote to leave was hopefully based on the next 50+ years, nearly all the negativity coming from this board and others are based on the economic hit of the next 6 to 12 months. I dont even see the hit.
There will be winners and losers whatever we do, the long term benefit of being outside the EU is enormous.
Italy, Spain, Ireland, Greece Portugal are all skint most of them with banks on the verge of collapse. France and Germany economies are slowing down, quite possibly heading for recession. The next world recession could hit the EU off the park. They aren't in any sort of position to fight it, and Germany cant do it on it's own.
The British economy is thriving, despite jumping off a cliff 3 years ago, and being run by the biggest bunch of muppets in 400 years.
When the next recession hits, and it inevitably will, the benefit we gain from being outside the EU will dwarf any possible hit we get from leaving.
Trading under WTO isn't dependent on anything other than us saying that's what we want. That's why its there as the fallback for countries who disagree on trade terms. Germany do 15% of their exports with the UK. Their economy is already suffering. Do you honestly believe that they wont want to come to terms over a trade deal. The EU are the fly in the ointment, because they just want to stick a knife in us, but can Germany afford to let the EU cut their nose off. I dont think so. Where Germany lead, the rest will follow.
The European elections are going to be a massive wake up call to the Federalists in Brussels and could well be a complete game changer when it comes to negotiations.
As for the Tories blaming Labour. Labour constituencies overwhelmingly voted leave. Corbyn had argued against being in the EU for 30 years. MPs on both sides of the house stood on Brexit, only now when it appears to be more important to stick it to the Tories than stand by your principles, on a subject that can define this country for the next couple of generations, they decide to play party politics. If that isn't Labours fault, whose is it.

Quick summary for those who can’t be bothered to read.

- it’ll all just turn out ok
- they need us more than we need them
- it’s all Labour’s fault

Nothing new to see here.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:23 am

I think wr should change the political declaration to a few words along the lines of

The UK will get back to you asap on how it wants to trade in the future.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:26 am

martin_p wrote:That’s good, he can stand as an independent and take a good portion of the Tory vote and probably some remainers from across other parties.

Yes he can stand as an independent but won't have any chance of a win its a Tory safe seat..

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:32 am

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Yes he can stand as an independent but won't have any chance of a win its a Tory safe seat..

So your hope that Labour MPs in Leave constituencies get deselected doesn’t mean much then.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:43 am

Jakubclaret wrote:How would you suggest I do that? & if I did do you think anybody would listen or act. I interpret that it’s some sort of suggestion that I go around all the restaurants & takeaways & some businesses & get them to admit to me & more importantly provide evidence to me openly that they are paying below NMW & often cash in hand, I’d also need the workers also to corrobate this, yeh that sounds easy, cakewalk, I should have thought about that idea earlier.

I see you dodged the actual question there. Well worth the wait.

We have a NMW in the UK. You have complained about cheap labour from the EU. They can’t legally (I know that not everyone operates within the law) work for less so how are they cheaper?

You seemed so sure that they were al working illegally for below NMW that I assumed it would be easy for you to provide evidence which I would then expect you to present up the relevant authorities.

If you want a bit of time to provide a considered response again, please feel free to do so.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:47 am

The bit that I don’t get in all this is why we are not using our trade deficit in public speeches aimed at the EU?

Supposing we get “trapped” in the backstop or “punished” after no deal?

In those circumstances relations would deteriorate quickly and a pro-Brexit PM would be talking about protecting our own economy, using a “buy British” policy, hunkering down.

The not so hidden message is that we would be wrecking the economies of Germany, Ireland and others. We’ll be doing it now to an extent. I am going to the USA in the summer instead of Europe because I expect border chaos. I am buying a new Jaguar instead of a Mercedes because dieselgate annoyed me and these negotiations are annoying me.

May’s tactic has been to be all nicey nicey with the EU but in truth, where has it got her? Some home truths, or finding a “bad cop” on the Brexiteer side, may have helped.

P.s. the above is why, if I were the ERG, I would vote for the deal - because the risks are lower than they seem.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:57 am

The deal that won't go through, because the Unionists in NI have stated specifically that the Union is more important than Brexit.

That has to be pointed out to the Conservative and Unionist Party speaks absolutely volumes.

And that hard core of ERG members will never vote for this deal. Johnson, Raab and JRM have woken up this morning to every complete fruitcake amongst the "Brexit means Brexit" bunch (which of course, is not all of them!) thinking they are traitors.

Hopefully it will make them reign back on the rhetoric but I somehow doubt it.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:01 am

I hope someone lets this bloke lie in this morning before showing him the morning papers

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status ... 7458587648" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:07 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:I see you dodged the actual question there. Well worth the wait.

We have a NMW in the UK. You have complained about cheap labour from the EU. They can’t legally (I know that not everyone operates within the law) work for less so how are they cheaper?

You seemed so sure that they were al working illegally for below NMW that I assumed it would be easy for you to provide evidence which I would then expect you to present up the relevant authorities.

If you want a bit of time to provide a considered response again, please feel free to do so.

Not everybody is operating or working illegally within the UK some are, the idea that I'm capable of gathering such evidence that people are just going to freely turn themselves into me & i can just report my findings to the relevant authorities is quite frankly insane, the answer to your question as already been answered plenty of times, regarding depressed wages, different living arrangements, it's all interconnected, the lack of appetite to increase the minimum wage to a sustainable level, i understand people not agreeing with them answers but i can't keep answering the same questions, it should have a reached a stage of remembering or acknowledging the questions have been answered whether in agreement or not, in fairness you're not alone in the pursuit of repeating questions & not remembering or refusing to accept the questions have been answered.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:21 am

I’ve just looked at the voting numbers in The Times.

28 Brexiteer Tories voted against, 10 DUP and there were 2 hardline Labour abstentions for similar reasons.

30 of those 40 people voting for the deal would see it pass. So there is a way to do it without the DUP, or, with the DUP but without up to 10 hardline Tories.

P.s. there were 6 Tory rebels too - given what this means, deselection is something I would strongly support, even though I prefer a broad church. All 6 have been ministers, which shows you the kind of government we have.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:29 am

I think most of the remaining erg are hanging on because they still think no deal is legally possible. Take that away and enough might might just go for the deal to keep a chance of the real goal a free trade deal alive.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:36 am

martin_p wrote:Wouldn’t have thought so, the people of Burnley are used to being “downtrodden northerners” who feel obliged to vote labour because we are working class and labour is the party of the working man/woman. Not forgetting it’s the party that spunks away the most money on benefits for the masses.

So, I suggest that because of high levels of unemployment, poor wages, high levels of teenage pregnancy, large dependency on benefits the locals vote labour because it’s better for them (more money come signing on day) ..... and you suggest they will vote labour again because they are too stupid to remember how their labour MP did all she could to scupper brexit? Do I have that right?

My point was simply this. Because of the reasons I listed, Burnley will (almost) always return a labour MP. I’d like the people who voted overwhelmingly for brexit see that they have been betrayed by their MP, and I’d hope they remember this when it matters.

Up until the last election, I’d been a lifetime labour supporter myself. The current lot are not worthy of the title “opposition” and that’s why the cluster continues.

Brexit is gonna die, and with it what little faith I have left in our current form of government and democracy.

4:20 · Post by **4:20** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:39 am

I'm at the point where I don't know what's going on at all, I saw this infographic and it helped me out a bit. This is my first brexit post and my last but it did tickle me.

: D25VtTYX4AAxRDO.jpeg (39.96 KiB) Viewed 1251 times

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:41 am

Could be your last post for a while...

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:44 am

Https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... ontinue-he" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dominic Grieve, My nomination for good egg of the year award

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:19 am

I don't know if any posters on here have been following Chris Grey's Brexit blog over the last couple of years, but this week's edition is a decent write-up:

https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co ... s.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:35 am

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Yes he can stand as an independent but won't have any chance of a win its a Tory safe seat..

Grieve would absolutely walk home in that seat if he stood as an independent.
There were 182 votes against him in his constituency party, and something like 130 still back him. It's a tiny sample of the 36,000 who elected him.
Beaconsfield was just about 50 / 50 split at the referendum. That means the Tory vote would be massively split.
Labour who only got 12,000 can't win it, so you can expect a lot of those + Lib Dems etc to back him.
He'll also have a massive personal vote in that constituency.
Just checked: there were only 20,000 voted leave in his constituency, (and just about the same number for remain), so if every single one of those 20,000 leave votes were Tory votes and / or voted Tory at the next election (which they won't) he would only need to pick up 4,000 remain votes in addition to the other 16,000 to win.
But with tactical voting and FPTP system he'd be in no danger of losing.
Conclusion: they won't deselect him.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:54 am

Labour's Brexit Policy

Inside the EU customs union
Close alignment to the single market (but not in it)
Same worker's rights as the EU
Same environmental standards as the EU
Independent immigration policy
Independent agricultural policy
Independent fisheries policy
Independent legal system (outside the jurisdiction of the ECJ apart from customs union laws/rules)

I have tried to clarify the policy as the Labour Party seem unable to do it themselves.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:00 am

[quote="nil_desperandum"]Grieve would absolutely walk home in that seat if he stood as an independent.
There were 182 votes against him in his constituency party, and something like 130 still back him. It's a tiny sample of the 36,000 who elected him.
Beaconsfield was just about 50 / 50 split at the referendum. That means the Tory vote would be massively split.
Labour who only got 12,000 can't win it, so you can expect a lot of those + Lib Dems etc to back him.
He'll also have a massive personal vote in that constituency.
Just checked: there were only 20,000 voted leave in his constituency, (and just about the same number for remain), so if every single one of those 20,000 leave votes were Tory votes and / or voted Tory at the next election (which they won't) he would only need to pick up 4,000 remain votes in addition to the other 16,000 to win.
But with tactical voting and FPTP system he'd be in no danger of losing.
Conclusion: they won't deselect

Nice try. He's had it.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:19 am

summitclaret wrote: Nice try. He's had it.

So go on then.
Let's assume every single one of those Leavers votes for a "Brexiteer Tory". Where does the "brexiteer" get the rest of his votes from?
Added to that, a significant number of the 20,000 leavers will have voted for a "Grieve type" soft brexit, and as I said he will have quite a substantial personal vote. Also bear in mind that a percentage of the 12,000 Labour votes in 2017 will have also voted leave, so that actually reduces the number of Tory "leavers" and probably puts Tory remainers in the majority in that seat, (even before you factor in things such as hard v soft brexit, and changing demographics.)
I've shown and demonstrated the Maths. Now you show how a brexiteer Tory could beat Grieve. There simply aren't the numbers.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:27 am

Jakubclaret wrote: Not everybody is operating or working illegally within the UK some are, the idea that I'm capable of gathering such evidence that people are just going to freely turn themselves into me & i can just report my findings to the relevant authorities is quite frankly insane, the answer to your question as already been answered plenty of times, regarding depressed wages, different living arrangements, it's all interconnected, the lack of appetite to increase the minimum wage to a sustainable level, i understand people not agreeing with them answers but i can't keep answering the same questions, it should have a reached a stage of remembering or acknowledging the questions have been answered whether in agreement or not, in fairness you're not alone in the pursuit of repeating questions & not remembering or refusing to accept the questions have been answered.

Even by mouth-frothing brexiteer standards, that’s quite a rant. However, I think you are massively overestimating how big an issue illegal employment is. Can I just remind you of the first post I quoted which reads as if you are accusing all EU labour of being available for below NMW:

Jakubclaret wrote:Good post, I honestly think some don’t give a s**t about our own British citizens whilst cheap EU labour is readily available, it certainly appears that way.

So, if only a very small minority of the migrant workforce are working illegally, and to use your terminology “cheaply”, why are you claiming that cheap labour is so widely available?

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:31 am

Mala591 wrote:Labour's Brexit Policy

Inside the EU customs union
Close alignment to the single market (but not in it)
Same worker's rights as the EU
Same environmental standards as the EU
Independent immigration policy
Independent agricultural policy
Independent fisheries policy
Independent legal system (outside the jurisdiction of the ECJ apart from customs union laws/rules)

I have tried to clarify the policy as the Labour Party seem unable to do it themselves.

Inside CU - unable to strike our own trade deals, have to accept EU deals and allow EU to give access to our markets without a veto or seat at table

Single Market - what is close alignment? How much will we have to pay? We will have to accept Free Movement therefore no independent immigration policy

Legal system won’t be outside ECJ as they will have jurisdiction over CU, SM, workers right and Environmental standards. We are still in Euro Court of Human Rights.

So we may have a bit more say over fishing but that will be a negotiating area that we will undoubtedly trade away.

So, why are we leaving again?

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:36 am

Mala591 wrote:Labour's Brexit Policy

Inside the EU customs union
Close alignment to the single market (but not in it)
Same worker's rights as the EU
Same environmental standards as the EU
Independent immigration policy
Independent agricultural policy
Independent fisheries policy
Independent legal system (outside the jurisdiction of the ECJ apart from customs union laws/rules)

I have tried to clarify the policy as the Labour Party seem unable to do it themselves.

That's the unicorn of all unicorns.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:39 am

nil_desperandum wrote:So go on then.
Let's assume every single one of those Leavers votes for a "Brexiteer Tory". Where does the "brexiteer" get the rest of his votes from?
Added to that, a significant number of the 20,000 leavers will have voted for a "Grieve type" soft brexit, and as I said he will have quite a substantial personal vote. Also bear in mind that a percentage of the 12,000 Labour votes in 2017 will have also voted leave, so that actually reduces the number of Tory "leavers" and probably puts Tory remainers in the majority in that seat, (even before you factor in things such as hard v soft brexit, and changing demographics.)
I've shown and demonstrated the Maths. Now you show how a brexiteer Tory could beat Grieve. There simply aren't the numbers.

I prefer trust the party in South Bucks to make those judgements.