Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Colburn_Claret]

EU-Japan have just signed a free trade deal.

Why would you commit to making these models in an non-EU country in a highly competitive market?

You can dress this up as much as you like, but if a Japanese firm has two European plants, and one of them is in the UK and the other is in the EU, then the investment will only to be going to one place.

There's not a lot of difference between making cars in Britain and paying tarrifs to trade in the EU, than there is in making cars in the EU and paying tarrifs to trade with the Britain.
The bottom line is they'll probably go with whoever can offer the biggest sweetener, just like the 80 million we offered Nissan to build in Sunderland. At least we can still afford a sweetener, most of the EU is skint, and when we pull out of will be even more skint.

[Taffy on the wing]

Full length mirror still required!

The old Self confirmation technique!

"What I'm saying is right. And I know it's right. Because I'm the one saying it"

One man's evidence , is another man's conjecture.

What you're "saying" is simply your opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less......

What about the FACT that this woman is a highly esteemed economist, With 20 plus years studying these issues?
Does that count for nothing? She even gives a few analogies to help explain the why's of this being a huge mistake.
It reminds me of the whole Global warming issue. The Worlds leading scientists all agree, we're heading for trouble.
They back it up with overwhelming scientific evidence....and some idiot like Donald Trump says 'well i don't believe it', because it will inconvenience me and my friends.This denial gives cover for other people to deny it too, even though they know nothing about it.

[RingoMcCartney]

What about the FACT that this woman is a highly esteemed economist, With 20 plus years studying these issues?
Does that count for nothing? She even gives a few analogies to help explain the why's of this being a huge mistake.
It reminds me of the whole Global warming issue. The Worlds leading scientists all agree, we're heading for trouble.
They back it up with overwhelming scientific evidence....and some idiot like Donald Trump says 'well i don't believe it', because it will inconvenience me and my friends.This denial gives cover for other people to deny it too, even though they know nothing about it.

For many Brexiteers it's simply not just about economics.

It's down to the appeal of wanting to be a free and independent nation.

Something that remainers didn't get or didn't want to get.

[Mala591]

Newspaper headlines on March 30th 2019

'Failure of Labour MP's to support the EU/UK Withdrawal Agreement results in No Deal Brexit'

The irony of the current situation is that it is Labour Party policy to remain in the customs union and being stuck in a backstop situation will achieve that.

In fact it would be rational for Labour MP's to ACTIVELY SUPPORT the Government's current WA without any further changes to the backstop!

[AndrewJB]

Odd?.. Take a look in the mirror!.....Intimidated by nudity?
That class of people?........is it the fact that she's highly educated? That you assume she's from a certain class?
The people pushing Brexit are the ones from the upper classes.......they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. Think Reece-Mogg etc.
They want to go back to the 'good old days' when the Plebs knew their place & were grateful for a few scraps from their abundant table!
Brexit will be a disaster for the average Joe!

Wealthy brexiter people are creaming themselves over the idea of a 'no deal' brexit, because they have the money to take advantage of the ensuing economic chaos. They can play the long game of taking the hit when it comes to their own assets here, while scooping up assets of those forced to sell. Non-wealthy brexiter people are looking to the positive aspects of us reducing immigration, and taking back control of things that really we already have control over, when reduced immigration will hit us by having fewer fruit pickers and nurses; while taking back control will be us begging the world for favourable trade agreements.

Second referendum here we come!

[SGr]

For many Brexiteers it's simply not just about economics.

It's down to the appeal of wanting to be a free and independent nation.

Something that remainers didn't get or didn't want to get.

Should be about economics and practicality though. If the entire EU were to break up then yeah nothing wrong with being “independent”, but I haven’t seen a substantial argument about how our lives will actually be improved by this.

[Lancasterclaret]

I just love the idea that we are not a free and independent nation.

its as bonkers as "believe in Britain" as a reason for leaving.

[SGr]

I just love the idea that we are not a free and independent nation.

its as bonkers as "believe in Britain" as a reason for leaving.

Posted that article about the 72 laws the EU have imposed on us against our “will” in another thread.

Every single one of them shows it’s our own government(s) the anger should be directed at. Not the EU.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think the biggest problem with all this is the way its split the country

- Wales/England v N Ire/Scots
- Old v young (which is going to cause real issues)

It will only get worse, but it will be catastrophic if we leave with "No Deal"

[SGr]

As I say, for various reasons I simply cannot see Brexit lasting long.

[Lancasterclaret]

It all depends on whether you believe that people change a lot when they get older or not.

I think the oldies we have at the moment are the last generation that worry about stuff we don't even notice and glorify our past, so I suspect you are right.

Can't think of any scenario where I'll be against being part of the EU.

[biggles]

can anyone on here prove that being in the eu has benefited the uk more so than if we hadn't been a part of this most corrupt of organisations. the eu governors make sepp blatter seem the epitome of honesty. can't actually believe that so many stupid people still want to be associated with the eu. the uk has the chance, at last, to shake of the shackles of the eu and yet many idiots still want to remain a part of it.

[Jakubclaret]

For many Brexiteers it's simply not just about economics.

It's down to the appeal of wanting to be a free and independent nation.

Something that remainers didn't get or didn't want to get.

As pure fact for many brexiteers the driving force was a incalculable number of reasons for wanting out, trying to think of a concise analogy something akin to what a donkey experiences on the Blackpool seafront sick of getting taken for a ride & that’s what exactly what the EU were doing still are to a large degree.

[basil6345789]

In Portugal and just sent missus to supermarket - shockingly high prices. Going to Greece in May - the people are on their knees. So much for the marvellous EU! We'll be much better off on WTO terms once all the disruption and fiddling has subsided.

[SGr]

In Portugal and just sent missus to supermarket - shockingly high prices. Going to Greece in May - the people are on their knees. So much for the marvellous EU! We'll be much better off on WTO terms once all the disruption and fiddling has subsided.

Nothing to do with their own governments then

You know, given the EU doesn’t dictate economic policy such as borrowing and spending. Greece actually falsified their own statistics just to get into the EU in the first place, part of the reason they ended up in such a mess.

It’s not the EU. It’s them.

[Jakubclaret]

Nothing to do with their own governments then

You know, given the EU doesn’t dictate economic policy such as borrowing and spending. Greece actually falsified their own statistics just to get into the EU in the first place, part of the reason they ended up in such a mess.

It’s not the EU. It’s them.

It’s intrinsically linked to the respective governments for allowing it, the EU is a doomed project & we are leaving at the right time.

[martin_p]

Nothing to do with their own governments then

You know, given the EU doesn’t dictate economic policy such as borrowing and spending. Greece actually falsified their own statistics just to get into the EU in the first place, part of the reason they ended up in such a mess.

It’s not the EU. It’s them.

It’s almost like they’re independent countries making their own decisions!

[aggi]

I just love the idea that we are not a free and independent nation.

its as bonkers as "believe in Britain" as a reason for leaving.

If you bear in mind though that people like Ringo didn't realise there were EU elections (at least I can only assume that's why he kept saying everyone was unelected) then you can see why people might think that.

[levraiclaret]

In Portugal and just sent missus to supermarket - shockingly high prices. Going to Greece in May - the people are on their knees. So much for the marvellous EU! We'll be much better off on WTO terms once all the disruption and fiddling has subsided.

I expect the prices in supermarkets outside the tourist areas are much lower. The conditions in Greece are due to their joining the Euro and over borrowing at the lower Euro area interest rates to fund public spending.

WTO terms will cripple the car manufacturing and farming sectors but that wasn't on the bus.

What are the benefits of leaving the EU single market?

[IanMcL]

Voting our has destroyed our economy. It won't be the immigrants that allegedly take the Brexiteers jobs...there won't be any jobs!

[JohnMcGreal]

There's not a lot of difference between making cars in Britain and paying tarrifs to trade in the EU, than there is in making cars in the EU and paying tarrifs to trade with the Britain.
The bottom line is they'll probably go with whoever can offer the biggest sweetener, just like the 80 million we offered Nissan to build in Sunderland. At least we can still afford a sweetener, most of the EU is skint, and when we pull out of will be even more skint.

But it's not just about tariffs on the finished product. It's about being able to move thousands of parts and components freely across the border (sometimes several times) without checks or delays so they arrive at the factory just in time for assembly.

Without just in time delivery, every car production plant in the UK will cease to be viable.

[tiger76]

Eurotunnel not impressed with the UK government https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47124058

Is there any businesses they haven't annoyed yet.

[Pimlico_Claret]

Eurotunnel not impressed with the UK government https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47124058

Is there any businesses they haven't annoyed yet.

Always good to see the magic money tree available to those in greatest need - lawyers!

[Colburn_Claret]

But it's not just about tariffs on the finished product. It's about being able to move thousands of parts and components freely across the border (sometimes several times) without checks or delays so they arrive at the factory just in time for assembly.

Without just in time delivery, every car production plant in the UK will cease to be viable.

But Calais have already said they are prepared, and there won't be any delays....
There will be more paperwork, and it will probably take longer, but in reality that's like it to be hours, at most. Remainers paint a picture of goods being parked up for weeks. It is just scare mongering. Goods weren't held up at Dover for long pre the EU, there is no reason why they need to be held up post either.
Every problem is surmountable, all it takes is common sense and cooperation.

[South West Claret.]

And another reason to stay in Europe https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47120759" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Taffy on the wing]

Wealthy brexiter people are creaming themselves over the idea of a 'no deal' brexit, because they have the money to take advantage of the ensuing economic chaos. They can play the long game of taking the hit when it comes to their own assets here, while scooping up assets of those forced to sell. Non-wealthy brexiter people are looking to the positive aspects of us reducing immigration, and taking back control of things that really we already have control over, when reduced immigration will hit us by having fewer fruit pickers and nurses; while taking back control will be us begging the world for favourable trade agreements.

Second referendum here we come!

I hope so!............Otherwise the poor are screwed.

[Taffy on the wing]

can anyone on here prove that being in the eu has benefited the uk more so than if we hadn't been a part of this most corrupt of organisations. the eu governors make sepp blatter seem the epitome of honesty. can't actually believe that so many stupid people still want to be associated with the eu. the uk has the chance, at last, to shake of the shackles of the eu and yet many idiots still want to remain a part of it.

Try watching the OP's video...........that is, as long as nudity doesn't offend!

[Jakubclaret]

I hope so!............Otherwise the poor are screwed.

The poor are already screwed hence the emergence of brexit, lots unemployed due to cheap influx of labour voiced, change can only bring prosperity.

[cblantfanclub]

Cousin and father in law both live in Portugal.One in the Algarve and one inland between Porto and Lisbon. Both tell me prices are better than UK my cousin about 10 mins. ago. Fake news.

[martin_p]

But Calais have already said they are prepared, and there won't be any delays....
There will be more paperwork, and it will probably take longer, but in reality that's like it to be hours, at most. Remainers paint a picture of goods being parked up for weeks. It is just scare mongering. Goods weren't held up at Dover for long pre the EU, there is no reason why they need to be held up post either.
Every problem is surmountable, all it takes is common sense and cooperation.

Another one who knows better than the importers, the exporters and the ports.

[dsr]

Without just in time delivery, every car production plant in the UK will cease to be viable.

I'd like to see an article showing why that would be.

But looking at Nissan UK's accounts for the year ended March 2018: they had stock of raw materials of £226m, which represents about two weeks' supply of raw materials. That seems slightly over the top for "just in time" stockholding, but there you go. So let's suppose they need to hold double the amount of stock - an extra £226m, which needs financing - and although they don't currently have a bank loan, they have just paid one off on which they were paying 0.983% interest. So to double their stock holding costs would be £2.26m, plus a bit of warehousing. Call it £3m.

They made 470,000 cars, so that's about £6 per car added to the cost. (£7.20 including VAT.) At an average of £16,000 per car including VAT, that's an increased cost of 0.045%. Bearing in mind that tariffs on imports are set to be about 10%, is it possible they even with this 0.045% increase they might be able to fight off the threat of imports, and still keep trading?

(Incidentally, their pre-tax profit was £132m. Again, enough to absorb a bit of extra stockholding cost without being unviable.

Do you want to produce some figures of your own? Start by telling us how much extra delay will be caused by Brexit.

[Colburn_Claret]

Another one who knows better than the importers, the exporters and the ports.

I wasn't passing an opinion, just restating what Calais have said.

[martin_p]

I wasn't passing an opinion, just restating what Calais have said.

Everything apart from your first sentence is opinion.

[dsr]

You know you're getting to the end of a debate when someone on the other side argues against their own original principles, and instead attempts to attribute them to you.

Brexit is a zombie, and the country (or is it just me?) is waiting until the corpse is pushed into the coffin, and the lid nailed shut. Your argument above - while I appreciate it's supposed to be about how a 'no deal' brexit is better than May's deal - works very well for remaining in the EU. We will never get a better deal than the one we already have, and although we can debate until the end of time how bad things will get if we leave without a deal, there is no denying that things will be worse than they are now. As for your assertion that the EU is nasty and unpleasant - what facts do you have to back this up? When we consider the seventy-three EU laws that the UK voted against, and which were passed anyway, I only see us as being nasty and unpleasant. Or cheap and mean.

As a remainer, I find it odd that you'd also characterize me as a 'capitalist' - when I've pointed out many times on here that the EU is a buttress against unbridled capitalism, in a world of big multinationals playing country off against country to lower taxes, regulations, and workers rights. More and more we're seeing that "taking back control" actually means begging other countries to do free trade deals with us.

I thought that a fair and reasonable free trade deal could be agreed with the EU. It can't, because they place political principles first, last, and everywhere, and free trade is very much on the side. (And their principle is EU first, and the devil take the hindmost.) Whereas for you and other Remainers, political principles are scarcely an issue - it's very rare to see any argument about why the EU system is better than the UK system - but free trade is your sine qua non.

But as for why I think the EU is nasty and unpleasant - have you been following the negotiations? I have seen no evidence whatsoever that the EU wants to reach a fair and friendly agreement. The EU believes it has us over a barrel - and it's helped by the fact that many of our own politicians, including cabinet members, think the same - and it is determined to screw us for every penny it can.

[Colburn_Claret]

Everything apart from your first sentence is opinion.

So how long were the queues at Calais pre the EU? Seeing as my opinion is wrong.......

[martin_p]

I thought that a fair and reasonable free trade deal could be agreed with the EU. It can't, because they place political principles first, last, and everywhere, and free trade is very much on the side. (And their principle is EU first, and the devil take the hindmost.) Whereas for you and other Remainers, political principles are scarcely an issue - it's very rare to see any argument about why the EU system is better than the UK system - but free trade is your sine qua non.

But as for why I think the EU is nasty and unpleasant - have you been following the negotiations? I have seen no evidence whatsoever that the EU wants to reach a fair and friendly agreement. The EU believes it has us over a barrel - and it's helped by the fact that many of our own politicians, including cabinet members, think the same - and it is determined to screw us for every penny it can.

The EU are putting the EU first!! How dare they! They’re sticking to their core principles!!! The evil bar stewards! Glad the U.K. doesn’t involve itself in such chicanery. After all we voted leave entirely for the EUs benefit, they just don’t appreciate it.

[martin_p]

So how long were the queues at Calais pre the EU? Seeing as my opinion is wrong.......

They had significantly more staff working at borders to deal with the paperwork. Maybe the French are better prepared than us (it wouldn’t surprise me) but we’re well short of the number of customs officials we need on this side of the channel.

[dsr]

The EU are putting the EU first!! How dare they! They’re sticking to their core principles!!! The evil bar stewards! Glad the U.K. doesn’t involve itself in such chicanery. After all we voted leave entirely for the EUs benefit, they just don’t appreciate it.

Of course they can. And it's the heavy capitalist in you coming out again - I would have thought that you would be in favour of the larger corporation playing fair by the smaller corporation and making a deal that's fair to both sides. But once again, you're coming out in favour of the EU getting everything it can and to blazes with the other side.

Here's an article you might like. It's about how the EU is starving Africa - once again, putting the EU first. How very very capitalist.

http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/how-the-eu-starves-africa/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martin_p]

Of course they can. And it's the heavy capitalist in you coming out again - I would have thought that you would be in favour of the larger corporation playing fair by the smaller corporation and making a deal that's fair to both sides. But once again, you're coming out in favour of the EU getting everything it can and to blazes with the other side.

Here's an article you might like. It's about how the EU is starving Africa - once again, putting the EU first. How very very capitalist.

http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/how-the-eu-starves-africa/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AndrewJB has already explained far better than I could why the EU is our best chance against unbridled capitalism.

Why should the EU play fair by us? Why should they put our interests over those of their members? This was all explained before the referendum when the Brexiteers were claiming this would be the easiest deal in history but now seems to be coming as a surprise.

[nil_desperandum]

Cousin and father in law both live in Portugal.One in the Algarve and one inland between Porto and Lisbon. Both tell me prices are better than UK my cousin about 10 mins. ago. Fake news.

Yes but prices throughout the EU are now quite a bit higher for UK travellers / expats than they were immediately before the referendum. I wonder why that is?
Also expats pensions are worth less.
Good news for those who earn in euros though, or own foreign properties.

[dsr]

AndrewJB has already explained far better than I could why the EU is our best chance against unbridled capitalism.

Why should the EU play fair by us? Why should they put our interests over those of their members? This was all explained before the referendum when the Brexiteers were claiming this would be the easiest deal in history but now seems to be coming as a surprise.

Because playing fair is a good thing?

Why should Sainsbury's play fair with small suppliers? Is there any reason why they shouldn't send invoices out to their small suppliers, saying that they have built 14 new supermarkets and the supplier's share of the cost is £14,000 - pay up or we'll stop buying from you? Is there any reason why they shouldn't suddenly tear up their contract and cut the price by 20% and tell the supplier to take it or leave it - knowing the supplier is dependent on the trade and won't survive if they don't take the cut? (I don't know if they still do this, but they certainly did 20 years ago.)

An unbridled capitalist would approve of Sainsbury's behaviour. You might, or might not - I would have thought not, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. But you approve of the EU doing it - why?

[SGr]

^Least we’re admitting now that the EU holds the cards, not Britain

[dsr]

^Least we’re admitting now that the EU holds the cards, not Britain

Are you? I'm not admitting that. All I'm saying is that if the EU doesn't want a free trade deal, or at least doesn't want one on terms that the UK can accept, then there is nothing we can do about it. And the converse is of course true - the UK could scupper a deal with unreasonable demands, just like the EU has.

Remainers have been saying all along that the EU can afford to do without free trade with the UK because its economy is four times larger and so the hit will be four times less, in proportion. It's still a hit to their economy, but the negotiators think it's a price worth paying to keep other countries in line. And what I am saying, not being a worshipper of the great god Trade as some people are, is that it's worth the hit to be rid of them. I would prefer to leave on good terms, but if they are determined not to be friends, so be it. Hopefully they will get over their sulks in due course.

[AndrewJB]

Are you? I'm not admitting that. All I'm saying is that if the EU doesn't want a free trade deal, or at least doesn't want one on terms that the UK can accept, then there is nothing we can do about it. And the converse is of course true - the UK could scupper a deal with unreasonable demands, just like the EU has.

Remainers have been saying all along that the EU can afford to do without free trade with the UK because its economy is four times larger and so the hit will be four times less, in proportion. It's still a hit to their economy, but the negotiators think it's a price worth paying to keep other countries in line. And what I am saying, not being a worshipper of the great god Trade as some people are, is that it's worth the hit to be rid of them. I would prefer to leave on good terms, but if they are determined not to be friends, so be it. Hopefully they will get over their sulks in due course.

It has been shown on here time and again that the EU is a democratic organisation (28 individual democracies do not make a dictatorship), and the areas in which the EU has overgrown being merely a trading bloc (joined up policing - which many leavers insist we could still have, for example), and while we are the ones leaving you are still banging on about them being unfair because they stick to their core principles?

Brexiters are thrashing around in their own death throes, and brexit is a zombie to be consigned to the grave by a second referendum. Yes we're close to a no deal, but our MPs won't allow that to happen. The only MPs who want a no deal are those who would benefit from the chaos it would bring. The majority of MPs won't have it. Even if Labour were elected, they would only negotiate a deal in which Britain remains within the customs union, and then put it to another referendum (which they'd probably campaign against - because it would never be as good as what we have already).

So shout out as much as you like, but your side has lost, and it just comes down to detail now.

[Greenmile]

That's the cleverness of Remainer arguments. (Not saying that Brexiters can't do it too, mind.)

It is certainly fact that Nissan have decided not to produce a type of Diesel car, which wasn't selling well and which didn't meet new regulations, in this country. And it is certainly true that they have blamed Brexit for it. So what you said is literally true.

But the implication is that Nissan have cancelled their new production line because of Brexit. Is that true? Well, I suppose if you feel that big businessmen are inherently trustworthy and they will always tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth - then maybe. I don't have your touching faith. Nissan aren't the first company to produce fewer diesels and to lose sales because of the global (especially Chinese) downturn in car sales, and blame Brexit. Would it be possible that a company board of directors prefers to blame someone else for their own financial losses?

I’m as left wing / anti-capitalist as you’ll find, but I still think businessmen are more inherently trustworthy than anyone still coming out with this sort of nonsense after all this time....

Brexit may damaging everybody - the EU as well as us. Free trade is a good thing and would benefit both the EU and the UK, but if the EU doesn't want it, there isn't much we can do. And I realise the EU is nasty and unpleasant and will do anything they can to harm the UK, but that in my book is not a valid reason to rejoin.

To Remainers, the great god Free Trade is everything. They would want access to the EU market, worth a combined €560 billion in both directions, and will pay literally any price. They think a fair deal is that they give us tariff-free access to the €560 million market in both directions, and we give then tariff-free access to the €560 billion market in both directions; but to "even up" the deal, we also have to pay €39 billion cash down, €10 billion+ per year, and allow them to set all the rules including our own domestic ones, and to decide when we can stop paying - only when they have found something they like better. Which is a nonsense deal, and how anyone can think that is better than just leaving is a bit beyond me. I thought capitalism was the aim of the Tory party with the right wing being more strongly in favour, but it's the Remainers who are the out-and-out capitalists here- because apart from a bit of mistrust of thew UK governemt's fairness in sharing out the funds the way the EU does it, the only arguments for the EU are that Big Business likes it better.

Don't be so slavish about Big Business. They aren't gods.

It’s funny how this thread, which was started as a way to snigger at some more extreme remainer antics, has brought out the most dishonest (dsr) and thickest (pretty much everyone else on this thread) of the brexiters

[taio]

I’m as left wing / anti-capitalist as you’ll find, but I still think businessmen are more inherently trustworthy than anyone still coming out with this sort of nonsense after all this time....



It’s funny how this thread, which was started as a way to snigger at some more extreme remainer antics, has brought out the most dishonest (dsr) and thickest (pretty much everyone else on this thread) of the brexiters

Just because you don't agree it doesn't make them thick.

[Greenmile]

Just because you don't agree it doesn't make them thick.

Correct. It’s their inability to understand the concept of evidence despite it having been explained in terms a 5 year old would understand (to pick just one example from many) that makes them thick.

[taio]

pretty much everyone else on this thread is thick. who the **** do you think you are?

[Burnley Ace]

I'd like to see an article showing why that would

Do you want to produce some figures of your own? Start by telling us how much extra delay will be caused by Brexit.

Just google “Brexit delays at Calais and the motor industry” - obviously the press are all pro Brexit but “a 2 min delay at the border = 27,000 vehicles quing on both sides of channel” or “it would add 10 miles to the queues at peak times for every additional minutes worth of checks”

You could then google “Brexit costs to motor industry “. There are pages of articles

[AlargeClaret]

God almighty she could have shaved her fanny ffs,it's not 1973