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http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36513
Definitely the one about not engaging with idiots that he uses whenever he’s got no way of addressing someone’s point, as well.Imploding Turtle wrote:I'd love to see a graph of Ringobot's most often used outputs.
"largest single expression of democracy this country has ever witnessed" and "Democracy- it means sometimes you lose" must be among its top 5.
That meths wont drink itself, will it?RingoMcCartney wrote:Talking about not engaging with idiots, Green Turtle, I'm off out. Busy busy busy.
Have a belting weekend Ladies!
As opposed to logging out as Turtles Head having being slapped down and being bereft of a response and logging back in as Greenmile , pretending to support another poster, who, in fact, is actually you!Greenmile wrote:Definitely the one about not engaging with idiots that he uses whenever he’s got no way of addressing someone’s point, as well.
martin_p wrote:And here’s a view from abroad on how likely we are to strike good trade deals outside of the EU. It’s a view from the US but I suspect every other country is having the same thoughts.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other
If Parliament was that bothered, they wouldn't be on holiday till September, by which time (as Cummings has forcefully and possibly accurately pointed out) will probably be too late.AndrewJB wrote:Spending billions on preparations for a hard Brexit that parliament won’t allow to happen. Reminds me of the water cannons.
Perfect post.dsr wrote:If Parliament was that bothered, they wouldn't be on holiday till September, by which time (as Cummings has forcefully and possibly accurately pointed out) will probably be too late.
What is Parliament going to do? They can't just vote against no deal; they might as well vote to abolish 31st October this year for all the good it would do. They need to vote for something.
With the greatest of respect how on earth can you hold any balance or credibility when you just post links to Uber remainer sympathetic/Guardian pieces ? It’s right up there with posting bilge from the Daily Express , and simply shows the quite staggering smugness of hardcore remainers almost willing the country to fail .martin_p wrote:So much for no deal being a ‘million to one’ possibility.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other
AlargeClaret wrote:With the greatest of respect how on earth can you hold any balance or credibility when you just post links to Uber remainer sympathetic/Guardian pieces ? It’s right up there with posting bilge from the Daily Express , and simply shows the quite staggering smugness of hardcore remainers almost willing the country to fail .
Been reported all over the place. Was headlining on BBC radio this morning.AlargeClaret wrote:With the greatest of respect how on earth can you hold any balance or credibility when you just post links to Uber remainer sympathetic/Guardian pieces ? It’s right up there with posting bilge from the Daily Express , and simply shows the quite staggering smugness of hardcore remainers almost willing the country to fail .
To be fair, most people will probably be able to judge that the two sentences are connected and that Parliament will struggle to do anything because they have been on holiday until it is too late.Imploding Turtle wrote:Perfect post.
You manage to complain that Parliament is on holiday and therefore not that bothered. And then you manage to suggest that Parliament would be powerless anyway.
I'm surprised it's big news, except of course that Boris did make hyperbolic claims about his million to one chance. But the EU says that they want May's deal or nothing, and every political party in the House of Commons says that May's deal is no good, so obviously May's deal is out. And there aren't any other deals.martin_p wrote:Been reported all over the place. Was headlining on BBC radio this morning.
Here’s the same news from the Mail if it makes it more palatable for you. It’s written with a different emphasis, but the message is the same, I.e. despite Johnson’s ‘million to one comments’ we’re heading for no deal.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... hnson.html
It’s the withdrawal agreement that’s locked down as far as the EU is concerned, the political declaration is still up for grabs. And let’s not pretend that the deal was rejected numerous times in parliament because of the Irish backstop, Labour’s major problem was that the political declaration didn’t mention a customs union which was the Brexit they’d backed in their manifesto. If you look at the cross party talks that May held when it was all a bit too late it was a customs union that was the big hope for getting the WA through parliament, Labour didn’t insist the backstop should be dropped. So clearly there is a version of the WA + political declaration that would receive cross party support, but it’s not one that the Uber Brexiteers now in charge are prepared to countenance.dsr wrote:I'm surprised it's big news, except of course that Boris did make hyperbolic claims about his million to one chance. But the EU says that they want May's deal or nothing, and every political party in the House of Commons says that May's deal is no good, so obviously May's deal is out. And there aren't any other deals.
(Apart of course from the dozens of little deals that will keep the airlines etc. running smoothly. But no big trade deal.)
That can't be true, multiple posters have explained how hamstringing our economy will put us in a strong negotiating position.CombatClaret wrote:"Britain has no leverage, Britain is desperate … it needs an agreement very soon. When you have a desperate partner, that’s when you strike the hardest bargain.”
Exactly what everyone said from the beginning.
Except that the EU will not renegotiate the deal, so whatever was wrong with it that Labour couldn't stomach will still be there on October 31st. (Unless the thing they couldn't stomach was that it was Conservative policy. But I doubt they could make such an obviously party-expedient u-turn without, like the Tories did, getting a new leader.)martin_p wrote:It’s the withdrawal agreement that’s locked down as far as the EU is concerned, the political declaration is still up for grabs. And let’s not pretend that the deal was rejected numerous times in parliament because of the Irish backstop, Labour’s major problem was that the political declaration didn’t mention a customs union which was the Brexit they’d backed in their manifesto. If you look at the cross party talks that May held when it was all a bit too late it was a customs union that was the big hope for getting the WA through parliament, Labour didn’t insist the backstop should be dropped. So clearly there is a version of the WA + political declaration that would receive cross party support, but it’s not one that the Uber Brexiteers now in charge are prepared to countenance.
It’s the Withdrawal Agreement they won’t renegotiate, they’ve always been more than happy to discuss the political declaration which is the bit that talks about the basis for the future relationship between the uk and the EU. But the government won’t discuss that without the EU dropping the Irish backstop knowing full well that the EU have said they won’t do that. So Boris and co get to frame the deadlock as the EU’s fault even though it us that’s putting a pre-condition on talks restarting, a pre-condition that we know full well that the EU will never accept.dsr wrote:Except that the EU will not renegotiate the deal, so whatever was wrong with it that Labour couldn't stomach will still be there on October 31st. (Unless the thing they couldn't stomach was that it was Conservative policy. But I doubt they could make such an obviously party-expedient u-turn without, like the Tories did, getting a new leader.)
They could at least negotiate whether it is more appropriate to have the EU controlling part of the UK's economy or the UK controlling part of Ireland's economy. Except of course they won't, because the UK controlling part of Ireland's economy would be a nonsense idea. As is the EU controlling part of the UK's economy.martin_p wrote:It’s the Withdrawal Agreement they won’t renegotiate, they’ve always been more than happy to discuss the political declaration which is the bit that talks about the basis for the future relationship between the uk and the EU. But the government won’t discuss that without the EU dropping the Irish backstop knowing full well that the EU have said they won’t do that. So Boris and co get to frame the deadlock as the EU’s fault even though it us that’s putting a pre-condition on talks restarting, a pre-condition that we know full well that the EU will never accept.
Our current Prime Minister, who Leavers seem to be quite fond of, voted for it. Was he derelict in his duty and also an idiot?dsr wrote:The Irish backstop can't happen. It would be a dereliction of duty by the Government to allow it. May was an idiot even to discuss it, and it must be thrown out altogether.
Yes he was derelict in his duty, and yes he was wrong (though I wouldn't go so far as to call him an idiot).JohnMcGreal wrote:Our current Prime Minister, who Leavers seem to be quite fond of, voted for it. Was he derelict in his duty and also an idiot?
It's not the backstop that needs to be thrown out altogether, it's the entire failed project of Brexit.
I have forwarded your question to all the Labour MPs who rejected the EU/UK withdrawal agreement and asked them to copy you in with their reasons for rejection.HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:If we have no deal, what should be done about the Irish border? I don't see how we can respect the Good Friday agreement without it.
Didn't parliament three times have the opportunity to allow a soft Brexit, and three times rejected it? What does parliament what, that fulfils the result of and sentiment behind the referendum ?AndrewJB wrote:Spending billions on preparations for a hard Brexit that parliament won’t allow to happen. Reminds me of the water cannons.
Why just the Labour MPs? Is it because you don’t expect an honest answer from the ERG?Mala591 wrote:I have forwarded your question to all the Labour MPs who rejected the EU/UK withdrawal agreement and asked them to copy you in with their reasons for rejection.
Labour rejected the Withdrawal Agreement because they want a customs union.Mala591 wrote:I have forwarded your question to all the Labour MPs who rejected the EU/UK withdrawal agreement and asked them to copy you in with their reasons for rejection.
There is zero problem setting the rules for the border. The problem is with how to enforce them, and that will be done with a light touch (ie. less efficiently) while the details of the system are being established.HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:If we have no deal, what should be done about the Irish border? I don't see how we can respect the Good Friday agreement without it.
Up to 1973 there were export and import tariffs between North and South Ireland and they didn't have border posts on all the roads. And yes, smuggling happened. Why are people so obsessed with the importance of all smuggling that they think the Irish border will be put at risk because of it?aggi wrote:I can't believe that all the other countries in the world bother with border posts and stuff when all you need to do is check the paperwork.
That analysis may be meaningful if each car plant was an entirely discrete unit with the whole supply chain in the same country as the plant.dsr wrote:There are so many ridiculous doomsday scenarios that any element of truth will be ignored. Why should the car industry go down the pan? Will we not drive cars in this country any more?
We are currently net importers of cars. Brexit, so the doomsayers tell us, will interrupt supply lines on both sides of the Channel. Brexit will also introduce tariffs, making it more expensive to export cars from either side of the Channel to the other. Brexit will also crash Sterling, making UK exports to the EU much cheaper for Europeans, and EU exports to the UK much more expensive for us.
So the position is that UK built cars will get marginally more expensive in the UK while EU built cars will get vastly more expensive. And in the EU, UK built cars will get a little cheaper while EU built cars will get a little more expensive.
And the conclusion is that the UK car industry will tank because - why? Because the EU won't want to buy our cars when they get a bit cheaper, while we will be desperate to by EU cars when they get a lot more expensive?
We buy more cars than we make. If importing gets expensive, then we will make more in the UK.
Yet the people who actually know the intricacies of these things say there will be a problem. The irony of your post is that you were berating people on the transfer thread for thinking they knew better than Sean Dyche, yet here you are, knowing more than the experts about imports/exports, the Irish border and the car industry.dsr wrote:There are so many ridiculous doomsday scenarios that any element of truth will be ignored. Why should the car industry go down the pan? Will we not drive cars in this country any more?
We are currently net importers of cars. Brexit, so the doomsayers tell us, will interrupt supply lines on both sides of the Channel. Brexit will also introduce tariffs, making it more expensive to export cars from either side of the Channel to the other. Brexit will also crash Sterling, making UK exports to the EU much cheaper for Europeans, and EU exports to the UK much more expensive for us.
So the position is that UK built cars will get marginally more expensive in the UK while EU built cars will get vastly more expensive. And in the EU, UK built cars will get a little cheaper while EU built cars will get a little more expensive.
And the conclusion is that the UK car industry will tank because - why? Because the EU won't want to buy our cars when they get a bit cheaper, while we will be desperate to by EU cars when they get a lot more expensive?
We buy more cars than we make. If importing gets expensive, then we will make more in the UK.
It is suggested that the UK car industry will be decimated. But at present, we buy about 2 million new cars per year; if it becomes ruinously expensive to import cars, then more cars will be made in this country.martin_p wrote:Yet the people who actually know the intricacies of these things say there will be a problem. The irony of your post is that you were berating people on the transfer thread for thinking they knew better than Sean Dyche, yet here you are, knowing more than the experts about imports/exports, the Irish border and the car industry.
What a simplistic reply. You are using the sort of logic that all leavers use. You probably need to bury your head in the sand for around 10 years.dsr wrote:It is suggested that the UK car industry will be decimated. But at present, we buy about 2 million new cars per year; if it becomes ruinously expensive to import cars, then more cars will be made in this country.
There may be adjustments to what is made and by who, but cars will be made here.
That's a strange second paragraph, considering that your first paragraph was criticising my logic! Not a single Leave voter voted for Brexit with a deal, either. What we voted for was to leave. Full stop.Siddo wrote:What a simplistic reply. You are using the sort of logic that all leavers use. You probably need to bury your head in the sand for around 10 years.
Leavers stand shoulder to shoulder with each other saying go for no deal, when not one single leave voter voted for a no deal brexit, not one.
A no deal brexit wasn't even countenanced back in 2016,we where told this would be the easiest trade deal in history,and we held all the cards,somewhere along the way we've either been terrible poker players,or we've had some poor hands,whatever the cause parliament won't allow no deal to pass,so it's up to Boris to come up with the answers,if he can't it's eminently feasible brexit won't happen in any form.Siddo wrote:What a simplistic reply. You are using the sort of logic that all leavers use. You probably need to bury your head in the sand for around 10 years.
Leavers stand shoulder to shoulder with each other saying go for no deal, when not one single leave voter voted for a no deal brexit, not one.
I don't think anyone has suggested a "Berlin Wall" along the Irish border. However, no-one (not just in the UK/Ireland but in any country anywhere in the world) has come up with a way to have a border without any checking at the border. If it was as easy as you keep suggesting do you not think that other countries would already be doing it rather than the huge cost of border infrastructure?dsr wrote:Up to 1973 there were export and import tariffs between North and South Ireland and they didn't have border posts on all the roads. And yes, smuggling happened. Why are people so obsessed with the importance of all smuggling that they think the Irish border will be put at risk because of it?
This much I can tell you. There will be no "Berlin Wall" along the Irish border on 1st November 2019. (Or afterwards.)
Where did I say it was easy? I said it was possible. And on 1st November 2019, when the UK is not in the EU and there is no border infrastructure, we will see it happen.aggi wrote:I don't think anyone has suggested a "Berlin Wall" along the Irish border. However, no-one (not just in the UK/Ireland but in any country anywhere in the world) has come up with a way to have a border without any checking at the border. If it was as easy as you keep suggesting do you not think that other countries would already be doing it rather than the huge cost of border infrastructure?
That's not particularly similar to Ireland though is it. An island with 80,000 people 4,000 miles away from the rest of the EU and outside of the Schengen Area and the EU VAT Area isn't going to lead to large scale smuggling into the EU.dsr wrote:Where did I say it was easy? I said it was possible. And on 1st November 2019, when the UK is not in the EU and there is no border infrastructure, we will see it happen.
St Maarten and St Martin, in the Caribbean, don't have any border controls, in spite of St Martin being in the EU and St Maarten not.
No, not particularly similar. But it shows that there is no absolute principle against it.aggi wrote:That's not particularly similar to Ireland though is it. An island with 80,000 people 4,000 miles away from the rest of the EU and outside of the Schengen Area and the EU VAT Area isn't going to lead to large scale smuggling into the EU.
I think you’re clutching at straws. None of this is going well at all. A campaign that said almost anything to get the “no” vote over the line, and now we can see their promises of easy trade deals and sunlit uplands were worthless. The last three years have shown us this. Do you remember how the EU is a huge drain on our economy? Well now we’re spending billions on preparing the country for a disorderly exit, we were told it would never come to. We were told the EU is drowning us in red tape, and yet we’re about to embark on creating masses of it ourselves. They called us a proud free trading nation, but were about to take a huge retrograde step in terms of free trade. You might say this is for freedom, but we are all losing our rights as EU citizens to live and work within the EU (I think I mentioned my neighbour who is a Brexiter who wants to retire in Spain?). It is all turning into a complete train wreck.dsr wrote:No, not particularly similar. But it shows that there is no absolute principle against it.