So labour are apparently now saying that there should not be an election for months and that there should be a new referemdum before a GE. So its not just about stopping no deal then is it?

How can Labour square that with its existing manifesto and with its new conference policy?

And the most important thing from Johnson this morning?

You remember all of us pointing out that there would have to be border checks in Ireland in the event of a "No Deal"?

Confirmed by Johnson.

Well done everybody.

Well done indeed

summitclaret wrote:So labour are apparently now saying that there should not be an election for months and that there should be a new referemdum before a GE. So its not just about stopping no deal then is it?

How can Labour square that with its existing manifesto and with its new conference policy?

I'll field this one.

Labour will call a GE when Johnson owns up to his legal responsibilities.

Not complex, not difficult.

That's not what they are saying today.

Do you really believe Labour aren't calling a GE because they're scared of losing then? Because they'll probably lose whatever the way things are looking.

JohnMcGreal wrote:If that's true, that's a huge development, and a very positive one.

A general election at this stage is utterly pointless. It won't resolve anything if it leads to a hung parliament (which isn't that unlikely). MPs would do well to gain an extension from the EU and then pass the legislation for a referendum.

Agree any imminent GE will almost certainly lead to yet another hung parliament,if MPs passed legislation for a referendum,and given their previous reluctance that's not guaranteed,how long would the extension be and when would any referendum take place,according to the 'people's vote' campaigners it would take around 6 months to arrange another referendum,which means March/April 2020 at the earliest,so any proposed extension would have to last 6 months minimum.

If this is the path parliament chooses Farage could make a lot of political capital,so could Boris but you'd hope the Conservative party will regain it's senses and ditch him,i'm assuming he won't do the honourable thing and resign.

The issues with any referendum are firstly what would the question be,it can't simply be Leave/Remain,it's needs to be more nuanced as this question has to be resolved sooner or later with a definitive outcome,also the referendum has to be legally binding if it's to serve any meaningful purpose,otherwise we'll continue to go round in circles.

Bin Ont Turf wrote:Except when it's a General Election, then it's okay and folk don't ask for a second election.

Well in a general election the party who gets 52% of the constituencies gets 52% of the seats. If whichever party got a majority got 100% of the seats then I'm pretty sure people wouldn't agree.

This wont happen and not sure it even could but Id like to see a time limit for setting the question whereby other parties could be free to try and negotiate their own deal with the EU to put on the ballot paper.

I think if we have a 2nd referendum any leave deal needs to be already accepted in principle by both party's so if the public vote for it there is no issue with implementing it. This means its likely to be No Deal, Remain or May's deal which probably misses completely what a lot of people would prefer to go for

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:Do you really believe Labour aren't calling a GE because they're scared of losing then? Because they'll probably lose whatever the way things are looking.

All along most labour mps have wanted a second referendum as part of the 2/3rds or so of the whole of the HOC. That is the problem and why we need a GE. The extreme tory remainers won't be able to stand and the ex ones like Sourby and Wollastan.

summitclaret wrote:All along most labour mps have wanted a second referendum as part of the 2/3rds or so of the whole of the HOC. That is the problem and why we need a GE. The extreme tory remainers won't be able to stand and the ex ones like Sourby and Wollastan.

What if everyone doesn't vote like you think they are going to summit?

What then?

Devils_Advocate wrote:This wont happen and not sure it even could but Id like to see a time limit for setting the question whereby other parties could be free to try and negotiate their own deal with the EU to put on the ballot paper.

I think if we have a 2nd referendum any leave deal needs to be already accepted in principle by both party's so if the public vote for it there is no issue with implementing it. This means its likely to be No Deal, Remain or May's deal which probably misses completely what a lot of people would prefer to go for

A complete stitch up for remain then and why this HOC could never agree a fair question. It has to be a GE. I will take my chances on the tories/BP getting a majority and hopefull end up with a canada style free trade deal.

summitclaret wrote:A complete stitch up for remain then and why this HOC could never agree a fair question. It has to be a GE. I will take my chances on the tories/BP getting a majority and hopefull end up with a canada style free trade deal.

Everytime I ask you this, you just ignore it.

You know what happens on Nov 1st when the UK government ask the EU for a Canada style FTA don't you?

The ROI seem to be in complete denial that there MUST be an Irish customs border between the EU and the UK. The solution is to MINIMISE checks near the Irish border by checking at the origin and destination of the goods. Random checks will obviously still need to be made and these will practically need to be near the border (border buffer zone).

Imo the ROI are hoping for the Brexit decision to be reversed and the only way that they will negotiate seriously is at the last minute when they are convinced that a no-deal exit will definitely occur.

Mala591 wrote:The ROI seem to be in complete denial that there MUST be an Irish customs border between the EU and the UK. The solution is to MINIMISE checks near the Irish border by checking at the origin and destination of the goods. Random checks will obviously still need to be made and these will practically need to be near the border (border buffer zone).

Imo the ROI are hoping for the Brexit decision to be reversed and the only way that they will negotiate seriously is at the last minute when they are convinced that a no-deal exit will definitely occur.

Thats not true.

its what Brexit backers want you to believe though!

summitclaret wrote:A complete stitch up for remain then and why this HOC could never agree a fair question. It has to be a GE. I will take my chances on the tories/BP getting a majority and hopefull end up with a canada style free trade deal.

Why? No Deal will be on there so for those who want a "clean" break or want an FTA deal that the EU wont agree to then their is a clear option. If a different kind of leave or remain wins then im afraid you'll just have to accept the reality that you are not in this majority way of thinking that you think you are.

Just to add, Ive no problem with going down the election route but ultimately I just want to find the solution/compromise that satisfy's the majority of people even if its not the result I want (Remain). You on the other hand just want your own way and stuff everyone else who dont agree

We get a csft deal in a revised PD now as I have said before. The EU have offerred one before but May wanted a half in half out pointless brecit. Also BJ wants a deal, but he knows that this HOC won't pass one unless it has to choose between that and no deal.

Lancasterclaret wrote:Thats not true.

its what Brexit backers want you to believe though!

Please explain in factual detail why my theory in incorrect. Thank you.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brit ... Iz9gyE3hng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; This article is good for looking at the wider problem.

tiger76 wrote:Agree any imminent GE will almost certainly lead to yet another hung parliament,if MPs passed legislation for a referendum,and given their previous reluctance that's not guaranteed,how long would the extension be and when would any referendum take place,according to the 'people's vote' campaigners it would take around 6 months to arrange another referendum,which means March/April 2020 at the earliest,so any proposed extension would have to last 6 months minimum.

If this is the path parliament chooses Farage could make a lot of political capital,so could Boris but you'd hope the Conservative party will regain it's senses and ditch him,i'm assuming he won't do the honourable thing and resign.

The issues with any referendum are firstly what would the question be,it can't simply be Leave/Remain,it's needs to be more nuanced as this question has to be resolved sooner or later with a definitive outcome,also the referendum has to be legally binding if it's to serve any meaningful purpose,otherwise we'll continue to go round in circles.

I tend to agree. Although the Benn bill (or whatever it's called) is very important in that it prevents us from crashing out with no deal, I'm a bit sceptical about the extension only being 3 months long. That doesn't really give anyone enough time to do anything, meaning that we could just be in the same position at the end of January. So I wouldn't be that surprised if the EU accept our extension request, but only on the basis that it is a longer one, perhaps 9-12 months long. This would then go back to our Parliament to be voted on, and I think they'd accept it. We would then have ample time to hold a referendum.

As for the question, I think it should be between two options. Do we leave the EU with the Withdrawel Agreement, or do we remain in the EU as a full member?

People on the extreme Brexit side will scream blue murder, but the Withdrawal Agreement is the only credible leave option. No deal is a nonsense and isn't even worthy of consideration.

Whatever happens, it will be horrible. I can't see any way that this country won't be divided on this issue for a long, long time.

Devils_Advocate wrote:Why? No Deal will be on there so for those who want a "clean" break or want an FTA deal that the EU wont agree to then their is a clear option. If a different kind of leave or remain wins then im afraid you'll just have to accept the reality that you are not in this majority way of thinking that you think you are.

Just to add, Ive no problem with going down the election route but ultimately I just want to find the solution/compromise that satisfy's the majority of people even if its not the result I want (Remain). You on the other hand just want your own way and stuff everyone else who dont agree

What bit of i will take my chances don't you get? There can never be a fair question with 3 options. Particularly when 1 is May's failed deal. If you can't see that your approach is biased to remain in another ref then there is no point in even reading your posts anymore.

summitclaret wrote:All along most labour mps have wanted a second referendum as part of the 2/3rds or so of the whole of the HOC. That is the problem and why we need a GE. The extreme tory remainers won't be able to stand and the ex ones like Sourby and Wollastan.

I want change mate. Sick to **** of this country and the way it's being run. Do you think Brexit will sort it? Mogg and Johnson? Men of the people?

I've said before on here I am happy to leave the EU, but this is a con job by people exploiting an opportunity.

Tell me how it's otherwise, anyone - seriously.

summitclaret wrote:What bit of i will take my chances don't you get? There can never be a fair question with 3 options. Particularly when 1 is May's failed deal. If you can't see that your approach is biased to remain in another ref then there is no point in even reading your posts anymore.

With regards to a General Election, what should we do if we end up with another hung parliament?

summitclaret wrote:What bit of i will take my chances don't you get? There can never be a fair question with 3 options. Particularly when 1 is May's failed deal. If you can't see that your approach is biased to remain in another ref then there is no point in even reading your posts anymore.

Whats the issue with 3 options?

Mala591 wrote:The ROI seem to be in complete denial that there MUST be an Irish customs border between the EU and the UK.

Under WTO terms, there has to be customs checks.

Because of the GFA, the Irish govt and the EU are planning to do these away from the border (dundalk is mentioned I think on the motorway between belfast-dublin)

That is a solution forced on the ROI and the EU by us. Not by them, they are trying to minimise the disruption

The solution is to MINIMISE checks near the Irish border by checking at the origin and destination of the goods. Random checks will obviously still need to be made and these will practically need to be near the border (border buffer zone).

The obvious solution is a NI only CU, but that is unacceptable to the DUP. The DUP currently have no influence in the policy of the government because the majority is -43.

Its just a matter of time before Johnson throws them under a bus if he's serious about a deal (he isn't, which is what today is all about, transfering blame to the EU)

Imo the ROI are hoping for the Brexit decision to be reversed and the only way that they will negotiate seriously is at the last minute when they are convinced that a no-deal exit will definitely occur.

The ROI are not getting involved in UK internal politics, they prefer a deal or remain over No Deal obviously though!

This is Boris "I tell lies for fun" Johnson 40 days ago.

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/stat ... 9376726016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

40 days ago.

He lied about the border.

40 days ago.

And you trust him?

Your choice

Lancasterclaret wrote:Under WTO terms, there has to be customs checks.

Because of the GFA, the Irish govt and the EU are planning to do these away from the border (dundalk is mentioned I think on the motorway between belfast-dublin)

That is a solution forced on the ROI and the EU by us. Not by them, they are trying to minimise the disruption



The obvious solution is a NI only CU, but that is unacceptable to the DUP. The DUP currently have no influence in the policy of the government because the majority is -43.

Its just a matter of time before Johnson throws them under a bus if he's serious about a deal (he isn't, which is what today is all about, transfering blame to the EU)

The ROI are not getting involved in UK internal politics, they prefer a deal or remain over No Deal obviously though!

If the ROI refuse to accept any solution that the UK government suggest then they must be asked what long term solution they are prepared to accept. Why keep playing games by rejecting everything that the government suggests.

It's no good saying no, no, no and then not being able to indicate what COMPROMISE solution they are prepared to accept.

The time has come to get tough...

Mala591 wrote:If the ROI refuse to accept any solution that the UK government suggest then they must be asked what long term solution they are prepared to accept. Why keep playing games by rejecting everything that the government suggests.

It's no good saying no, no, no and then not being able to indicate what COMPROMISE solution they are prepared to accept.

The time has come to get tough...

Right

You get tough mate, its working an absolute treat so far.

Lancasterclaret wrote:This is Boris "I tell lies for fun" Johnson 40 days ago.

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/stat ... 9376726016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

40 days ago.

He lied about the border.

40 days ago.

And you trust him?

Your choice

His argument will be that the checks won’t be at the border, but anyone with half a brain knows these are ‘border checks’ I.e. checks that must take place before crossing the border.

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:I want change mate. Sick to **** of this country and the way it's being run. Do you think Brexit will sort it? Mogg and Johnson? Men of the people?

I've said before on here I am happy to leave the EU, but this is a con job by people exploiting an opportunity.

Tell me how it's otherwise, anyone - seriously.

I have said before BJ is a chancer and normally would not be in with a chance of being PM. However he is currently the only chance of this country upholding a massive democratic vote. We have to leave. The con job is from the people demanding we revoke and hold another referendum and have the nerve to say that they are part of a gov of national unity.

summitclaret wrote:I have said before BJ is a chancer and normally would not be in with a chance of being PM. However he is currently the only chance of this country upholding a massive democratic vote. We have to leave. The con job is from the people demanding we revoke and hold another referendum and have the nerve to say that they are part of a gov of national unity.

Thats not what he asked.

You haven't looked at anything after Oct 31st.

Depends on how much of a stitch up there is between remain and the EU. If the EU insist on anything more than 3 months then its all out political war. There is no way there should be another referendum unless parties putting that in their manifestos can form a government. If they do then fair enough, but good luck with getting a fair question. The Supreme Court is going to be very busy.

summitclaret wrote:I have said before BJ is a chancer and normally would not be in with a chance of being PM. However he is currently the only chance of this country upholding a massive democratic vote. We have to leave. The con job is from the people demanding we revoke and hold another referendum and have the nerve to say that they are part of a gov of national unity.

"...the only chance..." - I don't like this argument of "there is no alternative" / "has to be this way and no other" because it's a sales / con trick. Of course there are other ways of doing brexit, and other people who can do it. Perhaps not to your liking exactly, but we all have to compromise. And the only reason we're in this position of nothing having been done is that the government, in which Johnson played a key role, has farted about for three years. It's remarkable how accepting people are of his failings, and how much hope they're willing to continue to invest in him.

AndrewJB wrote:https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brit ... Iz9gyE3hng This article is good for looking at the wider problem.

A "no" news story... it has always been the case and probably growing trend as more of the aristocratic land/mill owners are replaced by their spawn. The ordinary person has never had the time, nor wealth, to get involved in politics.

Why they reporting it now?

Do the Irish Times think the voters in the UK are unaware of this status quo?

Be interesting to do similar article on The Oireachtas - would be surprised if there was not similar elitism.

So the rumours doing rounds now is BJ. Has done a deal with the EU which he will reveal in the next couple of days.
As part of his deal the EU have agreed to a clause which prevents them agreeing to an extension of parliament rejects his deal.

Check mate!!!!

Spijed wrote:With regards to a General Election, what should we do if we end up with another hung parliament?

Hang them

Lowbankclaret wrote:So the rumours doing rounds now is BJ. Has done a deal with the EU which he will reveal in the next couple of days.
As part of his deal the EU have agreed to a clause which prevents them agreeing to an extension of parliament rejects his deal.

Check mate!!!!

Source?

Lowbankclaret wrote:So the rumours doing rounds now is BJ. Has done a deal with the EU which he will reveal in the next couple of days.
As part of his deal the EU have agreed to a clause which prevents them agreeing to an extension of parliament rejects his deal.

Check mate!!!!

He hasn’t even given them a proper proposal yet so I don’t know how a deal has been done. Plus the EU would never agree to being the cause of no deal.

Opposition parties aiming to get some more government reports published: "The other three reports sought will be Snow Bunting, about the police response to Brexit; Kingfisher, about the impact on businesses; and Black Swan, which covers the worst-case scenario planning."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... government" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suspect these might reduce the appetite for going out without a deal.

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:Do you really believe Labour aren't calling a GE because they're scared of losing then? Because they'll probably lose whatever the way things are looking.

Which idiot suggested "Labour aren't calling a GE because they're scared of losing!"










Labour aren't calling a GE because they're scared of winning!.......

martin_p wrote:Yes, both my son and my wife wanted to eat out at a particular cafe at lunchtime but we didn’t go.

An insight into the deranged mind of a evangelical europhile zealot.

I ask the simple question of, when was the last time a uk wide expression of democracy was not actually implemented?

And I get a snippet of his diary entry for that day!


Anybody else remember the booklet coming through their letterbox that outlined the pros and cons of whether Mr and Mrs Marty Remoaner should eat out or not!?

I'm struggling!

Lancasterclaret wrote:Ringo

You know what I say to you now is surely?

You don't read my posts.

If you did, you'd know that I want a deal.

But if we can't get one, and there isn't a democratic mandate for a "No Deal", then we need a way out.

What deal do you want Ringo?

You seem very keen on repeating the latest Brexit buzzwords but never seem to mention what deal u want?

As predicted!

1 Remoaners have not accepted the result of the 2016 Peoples Vote. Why should brexiteers believe them when they claim theyd accept another Leave vote?

2 Why should I as a brexiteer have to win TWO referenda for my views to be actually implemented, where as you as a remoaner would only need to have ONE.

3 we constantly here, "the referendum has caused division and uncertainty "

Please explain to me how you believe having another will actually bring to an end "division and uncertainty"?


I predict I'm going to see Lancasterclarets favourite trick.

The old "I've already answered you Ringo" method of answer avoiding!

5...4....3....2....1....

RingoMcCartney wrote:As predicted!

1 Remoaners have not accepted the result of the 2016 Peoples Vote. Why should brexiteers believe them when they claim theyd accept another Leave vote?

2 Why should I as a brexiteer have to win TWO referenda for my views to be actually implemented, where as you as a remoaner would only need to have ONE.

3 we constantly here, "the referendum has caused division and uncertainty "

Please explain to me how you believe having another will actually bring to an end "division and uncertainty"?


I predict I'm going to see Lancasterclarets favourite trick.

The old "I've already answered you Ringo" method of answer avoiding!

5...4....3....2....1....

Your prefered Brexit deal mate. Its not exactly hard.

Lancasterclaret wrote:Your prefered Brexit deal mate. Its not exactly hard.

The master swerver, at his question avoiding best!



Last time.


1 Remoaners have not accepted the result of the 2016 Peoples Vote. Why should brexiteers believe them when they claim theyd accept another Leave vote?

2 Why should I as a brexiteer have to win TWO referenda for my views to be actually implemented, where as you as a remoaner would only need to have ONE.

3 we constantly here, "the referendum has caused division and uncertainty "

Please explain to me how you believe having another will actually bring to an end "division and uncertainty"?


I predict I'm going to see Lancasterclarets favourite trick.

The old "I've already answered you Ringo" method of answer avoiding!

5...4....3....2....1....

RingoMcCartney wrote:The master swerver, at his question avoiding best!



Last time.


1 Remoaners have not accepted the result of the 2016 Peoples Vote. Why should brexiteers believe them when they claim theyd accept another Leave vote?

2 Why should I as a brexiteer have to win TWO referenda for my views to be actually implemented, where as you as a remoaner would only need to have ONE.

3 we constantly here, "the referendum has caused division and uncertainty "

Please explain to me how you believe having another will actually bring to an end "division and uncertainty"?


I predict I'm going to see Lancasterclarets favourite trick.

The old "I've already answered you Ringo" method of answer avoiding!

5...4....3....2....1....

Please make it the last time!

Lowbankclaret wrote:So the rumours doing rounds now is BJ. Has done a deal with the EU which he will reveal in the next couple of days.
As part of his deal the EU have agreed to a clause which prevents them agreeing to an extension of parliament rejects his deal.

Check mate!!!!

I thought, as a member of the Brexit party, any deal is seen as a complete disaster, whatever that may be?

Nigel Farage has said it has to be 'No-deal' come what may.

Spijed wrote:I thought, as a member of the Brexit party, any deal is seen as a complete disaster, whatever that may be?

Nigel Farage has said it has to be 'No-deal' come what may.

Because Nigel is a realist.

There is no deal that's beneficial to us.

The EU simply won't entertain one.

Farage looks even more useless and weak when called just Nigel

Lancasterclaret wrote:Source?

I was shown an article on the times online at about 9:30.

It appears to now have been taken down, could be many reasons for that.

Will have to see what comes out in the coming days

aggi wrote:Personally I'm not that keen on a second referendum, I think it will prove toxic for the country and I'd prefer us to leave the EU but keep close ties.

However, if we end up with another hung parliament or super slim Tory majority then realistically a second referendum is the only solution I can see to make progress unless the Tories face down the ERG and agree a realistic deal.

I think the same, 2nd Referendum is the last resort for me but "appears" to be the only way out if we end up back where we are in a hung parliament.

KateR wrote:I think the same, 2nd Referendum is the last resort for me but "appears" to be the only way out if we end up back where we are in a hung parliament.

I think we all do really, but that time is fast approaching.