Brexit: The Naked Truth

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:30 pm

Newsthump do this kind of thing rather well

https://newsthump.com/2019/06/10/brexit ... ialnetwork

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Cryssys » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:45 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Maybe you should chop some down then.

Everyone needs disposable income to spend, it's how the economy works.

Get that

Middle earners spend to maintain their lifestyle and are squeezed like lower earners.

Aww, bless someone on £45k pa is feeling squeezed. Try being squeezed on £20K pa.

Higher earners are probably better off most of the time anyway, but the train of thought is likely to be more disposable income = more spending within the UK etc.

And what do you think a lower earner would do with more disposable income?

I can see the reasoning for it, but I'm not politically loyal to one party unlike you and a majority of others on here.


No, you sound like a mercenary with no morals or principles other than greed and self interest.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:51 pm

Cryssys wrote:No, you sound like a mercenary with no morals or principles other than greed and self interest.


I've got plenty of morals and principles, maybe I'm just not blinded by the bullshit that political parties trot out all the time.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Cryssys » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:00 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I've got plenty of morals and principles, maybe I'm just not blinded by the bullshit that political parties trot out all the time.


This is not about party politics. It's a simple question, do you think that reducing taxes for someone earning £50K+ a year rather than someone earning £20K pa is fair and reasonable?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:07 pm

Cryssys wrote:This is not about party politics. It's a simple question, do you think that reducing taxes for someone earning £50K+ a year rather than someone earning £20K pa is fair and reasonable?


It isn't a simple question is it from you because you've left stuff out.

Why have you started at £50k when the threshold for 40% tax can start at £37500k a year for some?
£37500 - 50k is a grey area in regards to how much tax is levied from what I can see, but you've just chopped it out completely.

Plus they've ready raised the amount you can earn before being taxed for those earning less than £37500 pa in the UK, so what you don't want is fairness across the board.

You'd rather they squeezed everyone above a certain threshold because you don't want them to have disposable income that they could put back into the economy.

So in answer to your poorly phrased question, I think it's fair and reasonable to reduce the amount of tax some people pay, both low and middle earners and SOME higher earners.
You won't like my answer and quite frankly I couldn't give a toss because your question was put in a way to narrow the options to suit your political agenda/beliefs.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:29 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I started off thinking along these lines, then I began to see it as wonderful news.

The rate is £50,000 if one includes personal allowances.

So, by and large, everybody earning £30,000 or more has a big career limitation - do they take a promotion in years to come, with all the hassle and pressure that entails, for little extra money? For many, this affects the issue of whether their wife stays at home or works part time to look after the kids (I firmly believe kids suffer if they don't). They may have company cars and other benefits in kind that push them over that threshold. The tax rate is a key issue for those under £50k, not just over it.

A worker earning £50,000 brings home £3,128 monthly after tax .

A worker earning £70,000 brings home £4,094. It's a decent increase, not life changing.

I would though increase the national insurance threshold to 12% to make sure the total % paid is the same throughout the lower band (in fact I would abolish NI and merge it into income tax). The overall tax percentage by income level should always slope up, not down.

So back to Boris, I feel he is promising to give a massive rump of the country something to strive for, to graft for. With Corbynomics, where is the incentive to progress a career, bosses will get increasingly sneered at and then hammered with tax. It will ruin the country.

And yes, we do have to tackle left behind areas, food banks, homelessness and genuine poverty. But the personal allowance and the minimum wage are probably fair currently and the higher rate threshold does serve as a barrier to many.


I can kind of see the point here but I don't agree with it.

I don't think many people earning £30k are turning down future promotions due to concerns about an increasing tax rate. When I was at that point I certainly wasn't worried about what might happen to my tax rate in the future after I'm earning £20k more.

If you're earning around £50k though it is a consideration. If you're a teacher for instance then more responsible roles such as head or deputy will flip you into that higher rate band and the pay rise may then not be worth it.

The impact isn't really that high though.

£30k salary has a take home of £1,995

£50k salary has a take home of £3,128 - an extra £1,133

£70k salary has a take home of £4,094 - an extra £966

That comes out at the current tax regime costing an individual £2k a year (whilst they are earning an additional £11.5k)

I guess there are two questions that need considering. What happens if these people don't take the jobs? Are there a lot of greater than £50k roles with vacancies at the moment or do salaries get adjusted to take into account the higher tax rate. Do many people turn down pay rises because there may be an increase in tax at some point down the line.

Is this the best use of the money? Is it really a problem that people don't aspire to higher earnings or a promotion because they may have to pay more tax (whilst earning more money) in the future. Is this a bigger issue than millions of children growing up in poverty for instance? Why not push up the PA so that those earning under £12,500 have an incentive?

(Also I was quite amused by your, I assume unintentional, implication that this impacts mainly on men whilst wifey stays at home.)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:31 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Why have you started at £50k when the threshold for 40% tax can start at £37500k a year for some?
£37500 - 50k is a grey area in regards to how much tax is levied from what I can see, but you've just chopped it out completely.


It's a grey area for a tiny amount of people. It's £50k for the vast majority.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Quickenthetempo » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:56 pm

With the Brexit divorce bill in dispute whether we should pay or not. It got me thinking.

Seeing as we have paid in for longer than we were supposed too. The divorce bill should could down in price by quite a chunk shouldn't it? And continue to do so?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Cryssys » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:03 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:It isn't a simple question is it from you because you've left stuff out.

Why have you started at £50k when the threshold for 40% tax can start at £37500k a year for some?
£37500 - 50k is a grey area in regards to how much tax is levied from what I can see, but you've just chopped it out completely.

Plus they've ready raised the amount you can earn before being taxed for those earning less than £37500 pa in the UK, so what you don't want is fairness across the board.

You'd rather they squeezed everyone above a certain threshold because you don't want them to have disposable income that they could put back into the economy.

So in answer to your poorly phrased question, I think it's fair and reasonable to reduce the amount of tax some people pay, both low and middle earners and SOME higher earners.
You won't like my answer and quite frankly I couldn't give a toss because your question was put in a way to narrow the options to suit your political agenda/beliefs.


It may be £50K now but what he's proposing is to raise the threshold to £80K which will benefit those currently earning £50 - 80K. Raising the threshold at which people start paying tax would benefit all taxpayers.

Don't get your fixation with the disposable income bit. Are you suggesting that a lower earner is less likely to spend any extra income they receive?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:07 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Maybe you should chop some down then.

Everyone needs disposable income to spend, it's how the economy works.

Middle earners spend to maintain their lifestyle and are squeezed like lower earners.

Higher earners are probably better off most of the time anyway, but the train of thought is likely to be more disposable income = more spending within the UK etc.

I can see the reasoning for it, but I'm not politically loyal to one party unlike you and a majority of others on here.


Also, I'm not convinced by this argument.

I think that what you're saying is that if someone earning under £20k say paid less tax and had more disposable income they'd be more likely to save it as opposed to someone who earns £50k-£80k who would be more likely to spend it.

EDIT: which seems to be a similar point to above.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:03 pm

Cryssys wrote:It may be £50K now but what he's proposing is to raise the threshold to £80K which will benefit those currently earning £50 - 80K. Raising the threshold at which people start paying tax would benefit all taxpayers.

Don't get your fixation with the disposable income bit. Are you suggesting that a lower earner is less likely to spend any extra income they receive?


Nope, everyone likes to do things with their disposable income, that's their right but you don't seem to want those who earn more to have a higher percentage of their earnings becoming disposable income that can be put back into the economy one way or another.
It isn't a fixation, it's how the world works because without the income that can be spent what's the point of it all?

They've already raised the threshold at which people start paying tax, but I'm guessing you're either ignorant of that or hoping others are.
How high would you like them to raise that threshold out of interest?
It's £12500 as it is, what do you want it raising up to, £15-20k??
That would put a massive dent in the governments finances.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:06 pm

aggi wrote:Also, I'm not convinced by this argument.

I think that what you're saying is that if someone earning under £20k say paid less tax and had more disposable income they'd be more likely to save it as opposed to someone who earns £50k-£80k who would be more likely to spend it.

EDIT: which seems to be a similar point to above.


I've not mentioned anyone saving any money at all, how people spend their spare money is up to them.

Taxing higher earners double the % than lower earners is basically punishing people who've progressed their careers etc.
Now if you were one of those higher earners you'd feel a little aggrieved at that, unless you're going to start acting holier than thou and state you're happy to hand over 40% of your earnings in taxes...

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:33 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I've not mentioned anyone saving any money at all, how people spend their spare money is up to them.

Taxing higher earners double the % than lower earners is basically punishing people who've progressed their careers etc.
Now if you were one of those higher earners you'd feel a little aggrieved at that, unless you're going to start acting holier than thou and state you're happy to hand over 40% of your earnings in taxes...


But you keep talking about disposable income.

It's also not taxing higher earners double, I don't think you fully appreciate how taxes work.

And yes, I don't have an issue with the higher tax rate and the extra that it means I pay. I'd prefer the PA to be increased rather than the higher rate band.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:48 pm

Personal allowance increases a Lib Dem policy, and if you really want to help the lower end of society, that is where you do it.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby martin_p » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:58 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I've not mentioned anyone saving any money at all, how people spend their spare money is up to them.

Taxing higher earners double the % than lower earners is basically punishing people who've progressed their careers etc.
Now if you were one of those higher earners you'd feel a little aggrieved at that, unless you're going to start acting holier than thou and state you're happy to hand over 40% of your earnings in taxes...


They don’t hand over 40% of their earnings in tax.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Cryssys » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:04 pm

aggi wrote:.

I think that what you're saying is that if someone earning under £20k say paid less tax and had more disposable income they'd be more likely to save it as opposed to someone who earns £50k-£80k who would be more likely to spend it.

EDIT: which seems to be a similar point to above.


My point is exactly the opposite. A lower earner is more likely to spend the money. A higher earner is more likely to save it because they can afford to.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Paul Waine » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:29 pm

A few details on tax and NI rates - from HMRC website.

Personal Allowance £12,500, Basic Rates limit £37,500 - Add the 2 together and Higher Rate starts at £50,000.

And, alongside these changes National Insurance Upper Earnings Limit (and Profit Limit) are "aligned to higher rate threshold" - so, EES NI of 12% is paid on earnings above the Lower Earnings Limit, £6,136 up to £50,000. NI above £50,000 is paid at 2% (unless you are above state pension age) - on not charged on any pensions you receive if you receive pension before state pension age.

If you have a student loan, under current arrangements, on the post Sept-2012 loans, you pay 9% on earnings over £25,000.

So, on marginal income up to £50,000 you pay 20% basic rate income tax, plus 12% national insurance plus 9% student loan = 41%.
On marginal income above £50,000 (up to £100,000) at present you will pay 40%, plus 2%, plus 9% = 51%.

And, if you earn over £100,000 you lose your personal allowance at the rate of £1 per every £2 - until income is over £125,000.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:50 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I've not mentioned anyone saving any money at all, how people spend their spare money is up to them.

Taxing higher earners double the % than lower earners is basically punishing people who've progressed their careers etc.
Now if you were one of those higher earners you'd feel a little aggrieved at that, unless you're going to start acting holier than thou and state you're happy to hand over 40% of your earnings in taxes...


At the risk of being accused of virtue-signalling by Damo, you clearly don't understand how marginal tax rates work.

No one who earns £50,000 a year is handing over £20,000 in income tax.

The first £12,500 is tax free. The next $37,500 is taxed at 20%
So people earning £50,000 a year will pay £7,500 in tax. Anything they earn above £50,000 is taxed at 40%.

Therefore if they earn £60,000 instead then they pay £4,000 income tax on £10,000 of earnings, £7,500 income tax on $37,500 earnings and £0 on £12,500 earnings.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby If it be your will » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:58 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Personal allowance increases a Lib Dem policy, and if you really want to help the lower end of society, that is where you do it.

Does that help someone with an income of 12,500 or less?

Personal allowance increases help everyone except the lowest earners.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:06 pm

Cryssys wrote:My point is exactly the opposite. A lower earner is more likely to spend the money. A higher earner is more likely to save it because they can afford to.


Yes. I was agreeing that his point seemed unlikely to reflect what is actually happening.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby TVC15 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:22 pm

If it be your will wrote:Does that help someone with an income of 12,500 or less?

Personal allowance increases help everyone except the lowest earners.


No - it helps everyone INCLUDING the lowest earners.
Minimum wage in a full time job takes most people over the personal allowance rate.
To me it’s unfair that anybody who is working 35 hours a week at just over £8 an hour should be taxed at all (in addition to also paying national insurance). Increasing the personal allowance to align to a full time salary on minimum wage would give around £40 a month back to these low earners - not a massive amount but significant enough to make a difference.
My policy would be to pay for this extra cost would be to reduce the £100k figure where you start to lose your personal allowance.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby If it be your will » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:28 pm

TVC15 wrote:No - it helps everyone INCLUDING the lowest earners.
Minimum wage in a full time job takes most people over the personal allowance rate.
To me it’s unfair that anybody who is working 35 hours a week at just over £8 an hour should be taxed at all (in addition to also paying national insurance). Increasing the personal allowance to align to a full time salary on minimum wage would give around £40 a month back to these low earners - not a massive amount but significant enough to make a difference.
My policy would be to pay for this extra cost would be to reduce the £100k figure where you start to lose your personal allowance.

No - increasing personal allowance helps everyone except the lowest earners. There's no 'INCLUDING' about it.

We're talking around 30% here, that would gain absolutely nothing from an increase in personal allowance https://www.statista.com/statistics/416 ... d-kingdom/

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby dsr » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:35 pm

If it be your will wrote:No - increasing personal allowance helps everyone except the lowest earners. There's no 'INCLUDING' about it.

We're talking around 30% here, that would gain absolutely nothing from an increase in personal allowance https://www.statista.com/statistics/416 ... d-kingdom/

Anyone working 30 hours a week on the National Living Wage will earn over £12,500 per year. Your stats must include a lot of part-time workers, many of whom don't want full-time work anyway.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby If it be your will » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:38 pm

dsr wrote:Anyone working 30 hours a week on the National Living Wage will earn over £12,500 per year. Your stats must include a lot of part-time workers, many of whom don't want full-time work anyway.

But you do agree with this statement, do you not: increasing personal allowance helps everyone except the lowest earners.

(I expect my stats include an awful lot of people in part-time work that are desperate for full-time work, yes)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby TVC15 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:41 pm

If it be your will wrote:No - increasing personal allowance helps everyone except the lowest earners. There's no 'INCLUDING' about it.

We're talking around 30% here, that would gain absolutely nothing from an increase in personal allowance https://www.statista.com/statistics/416 ... d-kingdom/


Ok - didn’t realise you meant the “lowest” earners - that’s presumably a cohort of part time workers.
It would still help what most of us regard as low earners - if you are on minimum wage and working 35 hours a week you are still a low earner

It’s not about one single policy to help the low / lowest earners. The benefits system also needs to ensure that part time workers or those on zero hour contracts are supported better than they are now especially as the reason they have part time or zero hour contracts is usually through no fault of their own.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:58 pm

Others have bought it up, but for a full time worker, its a good thing.

Its certainly better than the tax cut on the rich!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby If it be your will » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:01 pm

TVC15 wrote:Ok - didn’t realise you meant the “lowest” earners - that’s presumably a cohort of part time workers.
It would still help what most of us regard as low earners - if you are on minimum wage and working 35 hours a week you are still a low earner

It’s not about one single policy to help the low / lowest earners. The benefits system also needs to ensure that part time workers or those on zero hour contracts are supported better than they are now especially as the reason they have part time or zero hour contracts is usually through no fault of their own.

Yes, I'll go with that. People often forget where the worst poverty in the UK is, though, and it's not with those in stable full-time work, it's with those that desperately want stable full-time work. Increases in personal allowance isn't a useful tool in these circumstances.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:07 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:.I would though increase the national insurance threshold to 12% to make sure the total % paid is the same throughout the lower band (in fact I would abolish NI and merge it into income tax). The overall tax percentage by income level should always slope up, not down.

So back to Boris, I feel he is promising to give a massive rump of the country something to strive for, to graft for. With Corbynomics, where is the incentive to progress a career, bosses will get increasingly sneered at and then hammered with tax. It will ruin the country.


Not that I am advising him or anything, but in tomorrow’s paper Boris’s team are confirming that he will indeed raise the threshold for NI, as indeed he should, which offsets the income tax gain.

His team also confirm the tax change is aspirational, for those not yet in that tax group, as I said earlier too.

It helps families, with the husband keeping more of his wage and thus funding the wife to work fewer hours to help the kids actually see a parent once in a while.

That’s why it is excellent news. Not sure how he will fix house prices but it is a good start.
Last edited by CrosspoolClarets on Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:12 pm

martin_p wrote:It’s not a well thought out answer. People are not being held back in their careers by the 40% tax band, it’s rubbish.


Not held back Martin, they choose not to proceed in them. I can name dozens of people I have known who have settled for their lot because the reward does not match the extra stress. That depresses the economy and stops the top talent rising, a double whammy.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:14 pm

Cryssys wrote:Of course it's spin. Crosspools is trying to justify giving tax cuts to those who are already better off. You couldn't wish for a better Tory.


I’m not a Tory, I’m a social democrat by heart.

This is about giving people hope.

And yes, it does have to be matched with other policies to address the poorer end, like addressing universal credit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:14 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Not held back Martin, they choose not to proceed in them. I can name dozens of people I have known who have settled for their lot because the reward does not match the extra stress. That depresses the economy and stops the top talent rising, a double whammy.


So can I

D Reaminig

Don texist

Mad eupname

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby If it be your will » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:15 pm

Paul Waine wrote:A few details on tax and NI rates - from HMRC website.

Personal Allowance £12,500, Basic Rates limit £37,500 - Add the 2 together and Higher Rate starts at £50,000.

And, alongside these changes National Insurance Upper Earnings Limit (and Profit Limit) are "aligned to higher rate threshold" - so, EES NI of 12% is paid on earnings above the Lower Earnings Limit, £6,136 up to £50,000. NI above £50,000 is paid at 2% (unless you are above state pension age) - on not charged on any pensions you receive if you receive pension before state pension age.

If you have a student loan, under current arrangements, on the post Sept-2012 loans, you pay 9% on earnings over £25,000.

So, on marginal income up to £50,000 you pay 20% basic rate income tax, plus 12% national insurance plus 9% student loan = 41%.
On marginal income above £50,000 (up to £100,000) at present you will pay 40%, plus 2%, plus 9% = 51%.

And, if you earn over £100,000 you lose your personal allowance at the rate of £1 per every £2 - until income is over £125,000.

Hi, Paul Waine,

By the way, regarding Boris's tax cuts, why is absolutely everyone, in every paper, indeed everywhere, saying it will 'Cost approximately 9.6 billion'. I thought you said tax cuts increased the total amount taken in tax?

Has absolutely everyone else got this wrong? Would this tax cut not make extra money for the government instead, like you've always said it would?

( ;) )
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If it be your will
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby If it be your will » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:29 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I’m not a Tory, I’m a social democrat by heart.

This is about giving people hope.

And yes, it does have to be matched with other policies to address the poorer end, like addressing universal credit.

I do sincerely like your contributions, because they are considered, even though I nearly always disagree. So this isn't a hostile broadside or anything. I'm actually laughing - in a dark sort of way:

But do you really look out of the window and conclude the section of society most devoid of hope, and really in need of tonic, a piece of good economic fortune, perhaps, are those threatening to breach the higher tax threshold??

It must be great to feel that way. I wish I did.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:47 am

If it be your will wrote:I do sincerely like your contributions, because they are considered, even though I nearly always disagree. So this isn't a hostile broadside or anything. I'm actually laughing - in a dark sort of way:

But do you really look out of the window and conclude the section of society most devoid of hope, and really in need of tonic, a piece of good economic fortune, perhaps, are those threatening to breach the higher tax threshold??

It must be great to feel that way. I wish I did.


The trouble is with those on the economic left (from my perspective, they are entitled to their view) is that they tend to view anyone with more wealth than them as unworthy of any government assistance.

That’s the problem with socialism - it isn’t so much raising the poorer people, it tends to be more about hammering the wealthier people until things level out (though human nature ensures it never does). A socialist state can thus never be a happy one.

I am at heart a communitarian family man who believe in a social market economy - that is the heart of conservatism, but not the type of conservatism claimed by the Tory party today. That’s why I support the SDP.

Taxes should be fair, but they have to incentivise the economic growth that will allow the free social market to thrive. A market with a crucial role for the state but with a new type of economy (e.g. carbon neutral, alternative energy) triggered by enterprise.

So......entrepreneurs have to spring from hope. I never said the people aspiring to be £50k+ were the most devoid of hope. But they are pivotal to the future of those who are the most devoid. Otherwise we’ll spend our lives weeping at people and not having any ability to do anything about it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby timshorts » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:10 am

I doubt that the effect that this policy would have on the country as a whole is remotely in Boris johnsons mind right now. This is a policy designed to get the tory party members to vote for him if/when he makes it to the final two.
What percentage of the tory party membership is in the higher income tax bracket, do we think?

After getting elected, no doubt he will think seriously about the next General election and staying in power, so will probably change his mind (again) to butter up a different demographic.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Cryssys » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:31 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
I’m not a Tory, I’m a social democrat by heart.

This is about giving people hope.

And yes, it does have to be matched with other policies to address the poorer end, like addressing universal credit.


You may like think you're Social Democrat but everything you write comes across a Tory through and through. If you want to give people hope you don't do it by giving tax cuts to those earning between £50 - 80K pa.


timshorts wrote: After getting elected, no doubt he will think seriously about the next General election and staying in power, so will probably change his mind (again) to butter up a different demographic.


I hope you're not suggesting that Boris would deliberately mislead people. He should be taken to court if he is.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Cryssys » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:36 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I am at heart a communitarian family man who believe in a social market economy - that is the heart of conservatism, but not the type of conservatism claimed by the Tory party today. That’s why I support the SDP.

Who are the SDP?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:25 am

Social Democrat Party

Currently polling at less than 1%

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:30 am

timshorts wrote:I doubt that the effect that this policy would have on the country as a whole is remotely in Boris johnsons mind right now. This is a policy designed to get the tory party members to vote for him if/when he makes it to the final two.
What percentage of the tory party membership is in the higher income tax bracket, do we think?

After getting elected, no doubt he will think seriously about the next General election and staying in power, so will probably change his mind (again) to butter up a different demographic.


About 30% to 40% at the most. Whereas 1 in 6 of workers now pay the higher rate, it was 1 in 20 a couple of decades ago.

For those people in that tax bracket there is an argument that they are having up to 70% of their money take off them in income tax, national insurance, VAT, stamp duty, fuel levies, alcohol levies and all the other direct and indirect taxes. With what is left they have to fund their pension, food, and pay for their rent / mortgage and other housing costs.

They then see this money spent on HS2 and other white elephants without seeing significant reinvestment in facilities close to their home.

Not saying they are more or less worthy than anyone else, but it is a fact that more and more people are being sucked into the higher rate and some of us would view that as unfair.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:32 am

Cryssys wrote:Who are the SDP?


https://sdp.org.uk/new-declaration/

There is a bit in there about why Tax has to be carefully set so as not to disincentive those who will end up making life better for everyone.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby TVC15 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:40 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:About 30% to 40% at the most. Whereas 1 in 6 of workers now pay the higher rate, it was 1 in 20 a couple of decades ago.

For those people in that tax bracket there is an argument that they are having up to 70% of their money take off them in income tax, national insurance, VAT, stamp duty, fuel levies, alcohol levies and all the other direct and indirect taxes. With what is left they have to fund their pension, food, and pay for their rent / mortgage and other housing costs.

They then see this money spent on HS2 and other white elephants without seeing significant reinvestment in facilities close to their home.

Not saying they are more or less worthy than anyone else, but it is a fact that more and more people are being sucked into the higher rate and some of us would view that as unfair.


70% ? Where on earth do you get that from ?
Are you seriously bumping that up with VAT, fuel duty and even stamp duty ? Are the lower earners exempt from these taxes or is it not the case that they cannot actually afford to buy a house or a car - and if they do manage to then a much higher proportion of their wage is taken up with costs such as fuel ?

Why do you think it’s unfair that people on a higher wage should pay more tax ? Or put it another way what do you think would be a fair tax rate and how would this be funded ?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:43 am

So this tax break helps 1 in 6?

17% of the population.

I'm not saying you are out of touch Crosspool (and like ITBYW I really like reading your posts for the same reasons) but you are kinda making the point that the others are making against it.

Got to admit as well that I like the bit about carbon neutral, alternative industries, but the only way that will be funded nation wide is by pretty wide ranging tax increases, not by tax cuts that benefit the well off.

And thats before you factor in the drop off in the economy due to Brexit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby AndrewJB » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:17 am

I think it's astounding that some politicians can talk about handing out tax breaks (and to higher earners as well), when so much of the country is underfunded. People point to Trump's "success" - but it's been paid for by borrowing against the wealth of future generations. Look at their deficit now. It shows that this often stated pillar of conservative politics - balancing the books - is a huge myth. If a left leaning government massively increased Universal Credit payments, this would boost the economy more than tax breaks to the comfortably off (all of that money would go into the local economy, rather than some of it saved), but critics would describe it as an unacceptable increase in the deficit, and unaffordable - regardless of what good it would do.

As always this debate around taxation completely misses those at the top of the pile. We can look at the nuances of taxation for wages of up to £150k, but what about beyond that? Can we honestly say that someone can't afford to pay 60% on their income over £500k? 70% on income over £900k? If not, why not? Someone talked about "hammering the rich" - but how exactly would they be "hammered" if just asked to pay higher rates of tax on income beyond all but a fractional proportion of the population? Let's recalibrate what "hammered" really means. It is losing a portion of your income because your child died, and you're unable to find somewhere smaller to live (let alone the fact most people find it helps them grieve to keep a dead child's bedroom). It means having your disability allowance cut, or being told you're "fit for work" when you've been diagnosed with a terminal illness. It's having youth services in your area cut. It's having to choose between heating your home and feeding your children. It's having to live with your parents after you've finished university because housing in London is too expensive. Paying a lot in tax because you make a lot of money isn't being hammered. It is doing your service to the society around you.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:22 am

If you're earning lots of money then your lifestyle reflects that.
Or are some of you saying that they should live like they earn below £37500k, like most of us do, and pay higher taxes because it's not fair that they earn more money?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:29 am

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11386 ... est-update

Surprised no one has mentioned this today.

EU are potentially going to use technology to avoid a hard border.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:29 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:If you're earning lots of money then your lifestyle reflects that.
Or are some of you saying that they should live like they earn below £37500k, like most of us do, and pay higher taxes because it's not fair that they earn more money?


£50k. It's pretty clear you don't understand what you're talking about.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:31 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:If you're earning lots of money then your lifestyle reflects that.
Or are some of you saying that they should live like they earn below £37500k, like most of us do, and pay higher taxes because it's not fair that they earn more money?

I think that some of us are saying is that those at the bottom, or near the bottom of the pyramid aren't fortunate enough to have those lifestyle choices you refer to, and that's why so many children go to school hungry and why large numbers of working people - some of them. In respected important jobs have to rely on foodbanks.
Johnson would be better addressing this, along with scandal of homelessness.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:40 am

aggi wrote:£50k. It's pretty clear you don't understand what you're talking about.


Either way, you're seeking to take more money from people who've earned it and live their lives according to what they earn.

As someone else has already stated, if you're going to lose more then what's the point in earning more and all the stress that goes with it?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:47 am

nil_desperandum wrote:I think that some of us are saying is that those at the bottom, or near the bottom of the pyramid aren't fortunate enough to have those lifestyle choices you refer to, and that's why so many children go to school hungry and why large numbers of working people - some of them. In respected important jobs have to rely on foodbanks.
Johnson would be better addressing this, along with scandal of homelessness.


So it's the wages at the lower end that's the issue isn't it?
If someone is earning X amount and is using food banks then taxing someone earning over the threshold more money isn't going to magically get rid of food banks or improve how someone else lives drastically.

Corporation taxes being collected properly etc would help far more.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:06 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Either way, you're seeking to take more money from people who've earned it and live their lives according to what they earn.

As someone else has already stated, if you're going to lose more then what's the point in earning more and all the stress that goes with it?


Yes, and I have no issue with that. I'm willing to sacrifice some of my take home for those who don't earn as much. The basic requirements for living don't scale linearly so I accept that taxes won't either.

It's a judgement call on whether you want to earn more but work more. I don't think a couple of thousand extra tax per annum is the deciding factor for that many.

You realise that the difference in tax between earning £50k and £80k is only a 6% increase in tax/NI. They're not taking everything.


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