EU

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
# 1
basil6345789
Posts: 1188
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:22 pm
Been Liked: 198 times
Has Liked: 578 times

EU

Postby basil6345789 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:11 pm

Is the EU totalitarian?

# 2
TVC15
Posts: 4512
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 1737 times
Has Liked: 254 times

Re: EU

Postby TVC15 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:12 pm

No - I think they like a drink
These 13 users liked this post: martin_p Damo fatboy47 longsidepies dougcollins pauliopaulio Lancasterclaret Lord Beamish nil_desperandum basil6345789 The Enclosure BertiesBeehole Murger

# 3
gawthorpe_view
Posts: 2441
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:19 am
Been Liked: 637 times
Has Liked: 1243 times
Location: 'Turf

Re: EU

Postby gawthorpe_view » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:30 am

Catches the other bus I heard.

# 4
Falcon
Posts: 2357
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:40 pm
Been Liked: 605 times
Has Liked: 570 times
Location: Proudsville

Re: EU

Postby Falcon » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:03 am

No more totalitarian than Westminster. Once this Brexit business is finished and we're out of the EU people will soon realise the real problems lie a lot closer to home...
These 2 users liked this post: SammyBoy Guller Bull

# 5
CnBtruntru
Posts: 2738
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:39 pm
Been Liked: 502 times
Has Liked: 341 times
Location: Wexford, Ireland. via Nelson.

Re: EU

Postby CnBtruntru » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:33 am

I honestly don't believe Jeremy would do any better and he's a Brexiteer

# 6
South West Claret.
Posts: 4323
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:55 pm
Been Liked: 585 times
Has Liked: 386 times
Location: Devon

Re: EU

Postby South West Claret. » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:40 am

CnBtruntru wrote:I honestly don't believe Jeremy would do any better and he's a Brexiteer


What on earth has belief or non belief got to do with anything, how can anyone seriously judge that another Government won't be better than the present one on "believe"? Belief is nothing more than and uneducated guess usually based on nothing more than predudice.

# 7
CnBtruntru
Posts: 2738
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:39 pm
Been Liked: 502 times
Has Liked: 341 times
Location: Wexford, Ireland. via Nelson.

Re: EU

Postby CnBtruntru » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:43 am

South West Claret. wrote:What on earth has belief or non belief got to do with anything, how can anyone seriously judge that another Government won't be better than the present one on "believe"? Belief is nothing more than and uneducated guess usually based on nothing more than predudice.


I never said I was educated, but i do know prejudice is spelt with a j :o

# 8
CombatClaret
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 876 times
Has Liked: 399 times

Re: EU

Postby CombatClaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:44 am

relating to a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state.

So no, not even close. North Korea yes. Now close thread and go back to one of the other 100 Brexit threads.

# 9
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 12638
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 4292 times
Has Liked: 2276 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: EU

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:46 am

It doesn't matter if its true or not (it clearly isn't)

A lot of old people believe it and won't change their minds in face of all the evidence. Its why we are where we are.

# 10
box_of_frogs
Posts: 2397
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:47 am
Been Liked: 510 times
Has Liked: 552 times

Re: EU

Postby box_of_frogs » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:52 am

CnBtruntru wrote:I honestly don't believe Jeremy would do any better and he's a Brexiteer

He does own a money tree though, so all our problems will be solved.

# 11
nil_desperandum
Posts: 4303
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1052 times
Has Liked: 1766 times

Re: EU

Postby nil_desperandum » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:15 am

box_of_frogs wrote:He does own a money tree though, so all our problems will be solved.

Doesn't own one, but if he immediately cancels all preparations / spending for a no deal brexit, and keeps foreign investors in the UK then he'll inherit a massive windfall.

# 12
Guller Bull
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:01 pm
Been Liked: 146 times
Has Liked: 140 times

Re: EU

Postby Guller Bull » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:17 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:It doesn't matter if its true or not (it clearly isn't)

A lot of old people believe it and won't change their minds in face of all the evidence. Its why we are where we are.



This seems to be your catch phrase and the mantra you are clinging to at the moment lancaster.

a) Some "old" folk will and some wont.
b) Are you devaluing their opinion as unworthy?

# 13
gandhisflipflop
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:05 pm
Been Liked: 572 times
Has Liked: 450 times
Location: Costa del Padihamos beach.

Re: EU

Postby gandhisflipflop » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:25 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:It doesn't matter if its true or not (it clearly isn't)

A lot of old people believe it and won't change their minds in face of all the evidence. Its why we are where we are.


A lot are older and wiser than you or I so forgive me if I don't take that stance aside from it being complete b0ll0cks.

# 14
Guich
Posts: 1147
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:35 pm
Been Liked: 435 times
Has Liked: 563 times

Re: EU

Postby Guich » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:45 am

Guller Bull wrote:This seems to be your catch phrase and the mantra you are clinging to at the moment lancaster.

a) Some "old" folk will and some wont.
b) Are you devaluing their opinion as unworthy?


It is a huge flaw in the argument Guller. As with much political/social debate, the temptation to make sweeping generalisations and divide groups risks turning millions away from your point of view.

I know old people who voted leave and those who voted remain (and young who voted leave and remain). if the most vociferous keep banging on about age then not one old leave voter will change their mind, but some remain voters might be offended enough to.

People vote either way for a myriad of reasons and not enough evangelical campaigners can grasp that.

For instance, I voted remain because I felt, at a difficult time for the EU, for the UK to leave would be a major blow, and I have quite a few links on the continent. In essence I voted for status quo and to ensure neither Germany nor France was just stuck with each other. From the UK's point of view I could see the case for both sides.

But to think that people lose experience and become more stupid, and less knowledgeable, as they get older is about as dim as you can get.
These 4 users liked this post: Guller Bull gandhisflipflop summitclaret DocFoster

# 15
Guller Bull
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:01 pm
Been Liked: 146 times
Has Liked: 140 times

Re: EU

Postby Guller Bull » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:59 am

Good post Guich!

I hate this generalisation as if it proves points.

We know there are absolute nutters on both sides of the debate. I voted leave because I felt that we are too limited by falling under the Brussels decision making umbrella. I wanted us to be wider world citizens and step away from single mindedness of Europe being all. I am non political and think that what we have in terms of political system is failing us badly and has only a short shelf life left. We need to adopt new ways of interacting with the rest of the world and becoming a nation that is inclusive and has its own identity I didn't want us to become a grey westerly outpost of a European superstate.

But do you know what I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time.

One thing for sure is the way that the whole thing has been handled is going to leave scars for decades as no matter what the eventual outcome be it leave/change our minds to stay/ renter etc etc it is going to have a terrible impact on how we view democracy for the foreseeable future.

# 16
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 12638
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 4292 times
Has Liked: 2276 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: EU

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:59 am

Guich, its sadly true. I wish it wasn't as the wisdom and experience of the older generation has many uses. But changing their minds on this? Nah

Gandhi, in your case, that is complete ********. I'm certainly wiser than you and definitely more tolerant than you!

You think the EU is totalitarian, in spite of the evidence then?

Guller Bull - correct, the damage to society and the country will last for decades, and all to try to heal a rift in the Conservative Party

# 17
gandhisflipflop
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:05 pm
Been Liked: 572 times
Has Liked: 450 times
Location: Costa del Padihamos beach.

Re: EU

Postby gandhisflipflop » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Gandhi, in your case, that is complete ********. I'm certainly wiser than you and definitely more tolerant than you!

You think the EU is totalitarian, in spite of the evidence then?



I wasn't talking about the OP I was responding to your claim about old people voting leave and young voting remain. I also wasn't comparing myself to you, but perhaps if you didn't come across as such a condescending belmtard, I would respect your opinions a bit more. Also tolerance wasn't brought into it but as it's a buzzword for people like you, you have no idea of my 'tolerance levels'.

# 18
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 12638
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 4292 times
Has Liked: 2276 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: EU

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:17 pm

I think I have based on your posts! I think everybody does. And I'm only being condescending to people like you because you are er "special".

Better clarify though, its not aimed at old people, its more at people who voted leave in general, of which the majority are old people. Doesn't mean they are bad people, or anything else you'd like to spin to try to deflect from that fact, but a majority of old people voted leave, and a majority of young people did not.

# 19
Guller Bull
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:01 pm
Been Liked: 146 times
Has Liked: 140 times

Re: EU

Postby Guller Bull » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:22 pm

But what exactly does age have to do with it?

# 20
gandhisflipflop
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:05 pm
Been Liked: 572 times
Has Liked: 450 times
Location: Costa del Padihamos beach.

Re: EU

Postby gandhisflipflop » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:23 pm

If you would like to quote any posts I have made that would suggest I am intolerant, I would be happy to 'clarify'.

Also, you were being condescending before I even posted.

# 21
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 12638
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 4292 times
Has Liked: 2276 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: EU

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:24 pm

Only that older people voted in bigger numbers for Brexit than younger people.

Have to check but its roughly 75% over 60 voting for, and roughly 75% under 30 for against (from memory, so it might not be accurate, but its not far off)

Its a generational divide that is the most damaging (as you have pointed out)

# 22
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 12638
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 4292 times
Has Liked: 2276 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: EU

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:24 pm

Also, you were being condescending before I even posted.


Nope, only to you.

# 23
Guller Bull
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:01 pm
Been Liked: 146 times
Has Liked: 140 times

Re: EU

Postby Guller Bull » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:27 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Its a generational divide that is the most damaging (as you have pointed out)


No I didn't point that out. I pointed out that there would be a damaging effect on how we view democracy for many years.

# 24
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 12638
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 4292 times
Has Liked: 2276 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: EU

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:29 pm

Apologies, I pointed it out. Sorry.

I think the democratic damage is more when the politicians can't seem to get their act together to enact the result of the referendum. Of course, if you voted out and meant "out of everything", then you are going to be annoyed and also if you voted out on what was promised (ie the stuff we can't have)then you'd be annoyed as well, and if you wanted to stay, then you are annoyed already.

# 25
Guller Bull
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:01 pm
Been Liked: 146 times
Has Liked: 140 times

Re: EU

Postby Guller Bull » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:38 pm

No problem Lancaster.

" I think the democratic damage is more when the politicians can't seem to get their act together to enact the result of the referendum."

Agreed - that is the destructive element. As I said I have no political ties and haven't voted for any party for years as I do not believe that the political system represents us fairly. The colours that MP's choose to follow generally stop them from thinking freely as they have to temper their thoughts into what the party needs. Voters tend to do a little of the same. We need bring governance back to more local levels which is why I struggle with Westminster and even more so Brussels as they are way to remote. However that's a whole different debate but what I find distressing is the way that modern day referendums try to get shoe-horned into party politics.
Last edited by Guller Bull on Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
These 2 users liked this post: Lancasterclaret Guich

# 26
Tribesmen
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:15 am
Been Liked: 469 times
Has Liked: 378 times
Location: Tibet

Re: EU

Postby Tribesmen » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:45 pm

What did Donald Tusk say today , ohhh yer " A special place in hell " good luck Brexiteers

# 27
CombatClaret
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 876 times
Has Liked: 399 times

Re: EU

Postby CombatClaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:48 pm

Tribesmen wrote:What did Donald Tusk say today , ohhh yer " A special place in hell " good luck Brexiteers


will there be a hard border with hell?

# 28
Colburn_Claret
Posts: 3031
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 1226 times
Has Liked: 1646 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: EU

Postby Colburn_Claret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:49 pm

Any government that doesn't listen to the people and it's wishes is totalitarian.
Both Westminster and Brussels are.
Brussels is too inwardly focused on creating a new federal super power, to take into account the wishes of any of its citizens.

Westminster is far too focused on Party Politics, and cheap point scoring off each other, than to look at the issues the people want them to address.
The positive is I think all voters are more dissatisfied with the present incumbents in the HOC than ever before. Tory and Labour. A sea change is coming and long overdue, where people have to make their representatives accountable. The gravy train has to be derailed, and only we can do it.
Last edited by Colburn_Claret on Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This user liked this post: Guller Bull

# 29
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 12638
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 4292 times
Has Liked: 2276 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: EU

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:50 pm

Agreed - that is the destructive element. As I said I have no political ties and haven't voted for any party for years as I do not believe that the political system represents us fairly. The colours that MP's choose to follow generally stop them from thinking freely as they have to temper their thoughts into what the party needs. Voters tend to do a little of the same. We need bring governance back to more local levels which is why I struggle with Westminster and even more so Brussels as they are way to remote. However that's a whole different debate but what I find distressing is the way that modern day referendums try to get shoe-horned into party politics.


Very accurately summed today by PMQs

"British politics today: Emily Thornberry arguing for a form of Brexit (when she personally opposes Brexit) and David Lidington opposing a customs union (which he personally supports) "

# 30
CombatClaret
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 876 times
Has Liked: 399 times

Re: EU

Postby CombatClaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:01 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Any government that doesn't listen to the people and it's wishes is totalitarian.
Both Westminster and Brussels are.


No they are not. Political scientist define a modern totalitarian system as having the following six, mutually supportive, defining characteristics:

1) Elaborate guiding ideology.
2) Single mass party, typically led by a dictator.
3) System of terror, using such instruments as violence and secret police.
4) Monopoly on weapons.
5) Monopoly on the means of communication.
6) Central direction and control of the economy through state planning.

What we have right now is a bit of a cr8p parliament in a parliamentary democracy. The fact we have free and fair elections or referendum at all shows we are not under a totalitarian regime.
These 2 users liked this post: Lord Beamish Greenmile

# 31
Colburn_Claret
Posts: 3031
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 1226 times
Has Liked: 1646 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: EU

Postby Colburn_Claret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:42 pm

CombatClaret wrote:No they are not. Political scientist define a modern totalitarian system as having the following six, mutually supportive, defining characteristics:

1) Elaborate guiding ideology.
2) Single mass party, typically led by a dictator.
3) System of terror, using such instruments as violence and secret police.
4) Monopoly on weapons.
5) Monopoly on the means of communication.
6) Central direction and control of the economy through state planning.

What we have right now is a bit of a cr8p parliament in a parliamentary democracy. The fact we have free and fair elections or referendum at all shows we are not under a totalitarian regime.

I'll bow to that combat.
At least we agree they are crap.


Return to “The Bee Hole End”