Is the EU totalitarian?

No - I think they like a drink

Catches the other bus I heard.

No more totalitarian than Westminster. Once this Brexit business is finished and we're out of the EU people will soon realise the real problems lie a lot closer to home...

I honestly don't believe Jeremy would do any better and he's a Brexiteer

CnBtruntru wrote:I honestly don't believe Jeremy would do any better and he's a Brexiteer

What on earth has belief or non belief got to do with anything, how can anyone seriously judge that another Government won't be better than the present one on "believe"? Belief is nothing more than and uneducated guess usually based on nothing more than predudice.

South West Claret. wrote:What on earth has belief or non belief got to do with anything, how can anyone seriously judge that another Government won't be better than the present one on "believe"? Belief is nothing more than and uneducated guess usually based on nothing more than predudice.

I never said I was educated, but i do know prejudice is spelt with a j

relating to a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state.

So no, not even close. North Korea yes. Now close thread and go back to one of the other 100 Brexit threads.

It doesn't matter if its true or not (it clearly isn't)

A lot of old people believe it and won't change their minds in face of all the evidence. Its why we are where we are.

CnBtruntru wrote:I honestly don't believe Jeremy would do any better and he's a Brexiteer

He does own a money tree though, so all our problems will be solved.

box_of_frogs wrote:He does own a money tree though, so all our problems will be solved.

Doesn't own one, but if he immediately cancels all preparations / spending for a no deal brexit, and keeps foreign investors in the UK then he'll inherit a massive windfall.

Lancasterclaret wrote:It doesn't matter if its true or not (it clearly isn't)

A lot of old people believe it and won't change their minds in face of all the evidence. Its why we are where we are.

This seems to be your catch phrase and the mantra you are clinging to at the moment lancaster.

a) Some "old" folk will and some wont.
b) Are you devaluing their opinion as unworthy?

Lancasterclaret wrote:It doesn't matter if its true or not (it clearly isn't)

A lot of old people believe it and won't change their minds in face of all the evidence. Its why we are where we are.

A lot are older and wiser than you or I so forgive me if I don't take that stance aside from it being complete b0ll0cks.

Guller Bull wrote:This seems to be your catch phrase and the mantra you are clinging to at the moment lancaster.

a) Some "old" folk will and some wont.
b) Are you devaluing their opinion as unworthy?

It is a huge flaw in the argument Guller. As with much political/social debate, the temptation to make sweeping generalisations and divide groups risks turning millions away from your point of view.

I know old people who voted leave and those who voted remain (and young who voted leave and remain). if the most vociferous keep banging on about age then not one old leave voter will change their mind, but some remain voters might be offended enough to.

People vote either way for a myriad of reasons and not enough evangelical campaigners can grasp that.

For instance, I voted remain because I felt, at a difficult time for the EU, for the UK to leave would be a major blow, and I have quite a few links on the continent. In essence I voted for status quo and to ensure neither Germany nor France was just stuck with each other. From the UK's point of view I could see the case for both sides.

But to think that people lose experience and become more stupid, and less knowledgeable, as they get older is about as dim as you can get.

Good post Guich!

I hate this generalisation as if it proves points.

We know there are absolute nutters on both sides of the debate. I voted leave because I felt that we are too limited by falling under the Brussels decision making umbrella. I wanted us to be wider world citizens and step away from single mindedness of Europe being all. I am non political and think that what we have in terms of political system is failing us badly and has only a short shelf life left. We need to adopt new ways of interacting with the rest of the world and becoming a nation that is inclusive and has its own identity I didn't want us to become a grey westerly outpost of a European superstate.

But do you know what I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time.

One thing for sure is the way that the whole thing has been handled is going to leave scars for decades as no matter what the eventual outcome be it leave/change our minds to stay/ renter etc etc it is going to have a terrible impact on how we view democracy for the foreseeable future.

Guich, its sadly true. I wish it wasn't as the wisdom and experience of the older generation has many uses. But changing their minds on this? Nah

Gandhi, in your case, that is complete ********. I'm certainly wiser than you and definitely more tolerant than you!

You think the EU is totalitarian, in spite of the evidence then?

Guller Bull - correct, the damage to society and the country will last for decades, and all to try to heal a rift in the Conservative Party

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Gandhi, in your case, that is complete ********. I'm certainly wiser than you and definitely more tolerant than you!

You think the EU is totalitarian, in spite of the evidence then?

I wasn't talking about the OP I was responding to your claim about old people voting leave and young voting remain. I also wasn't comparing myself to you, but perhaps if you didn't come across as such a condescending belmtard, I would respect your opinions a bit more. Also tolerance wasn't brought into it but as it's a buzzword for people like you, you have no idea of my 'tolerance levels'.

I think I have based on your posts! I think everybody does. And I'm only being condescending to people like you because you are er "special".

Better clarify though, its not aimed at old people, its more at people who voted leave in general, of which the majority are old people. Doesn't mean they are bad people, or anything else you'd like to spin to try to deflect from that fact, but a majority of old people voted leave, and a majority of young people did not.

But what exactly does age have to do with it?

If you would like to quote any posts I have made that would suggest I am intolerant, I would be happy to 'clarify'.

Also, you were being condescending before I even posted.

Only that older people voted in bigger numbers for Brexit than younger people.

Have to check but its roughly 75% over 60 voting for, and roughly 75% under 30 for against (from memory, so it might not be accurate, but its not far off)

Its a generational divide that is the most damaging (as you have pointed out)

Also, you were being condescending before I even posted.

Nope, only to you.

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Its a generational divide that is the most damaging (as you have pointed out)

No I didn't point that out. I pointed out that there would be a damaging effect on how we view democracy for many years.

Apologies, I pointed it out. Sorry.

I think the democratic damage is more when the politicians can't seem to get their act together to enact the result of the referendum. Of course, if you voted out and meant "out of everything", then you are going to be annoyed and also if you voted out on what was promised (ie the stuff we can't have)then you'd be annoyed as well, and if you wanted to stay, then you are annoyed already.

No problem Lancaster.

" I think the democratic damage is more when the politicians can't seem to get their act together to enact the result of the referendum."

Agreed - that is the destructive element. As I said I have no political ties and haven't voted for any party for years as I do not believe that the political system represents us fairly. The colours that MP's choose to follow generally stop them from thinking freely as they have to temper their thoughts into what the party needs. Voters tend to do a little of the same. We need bring governance back to more local levels which is why I struggle with Westminster and even more so Brussels as they are way to remote. However that's a whole different debate but what I find distressing is the way that modern day referendums try to get shoe-horned into party politics.

What did Donald Tusk say today , ohhh yer " A special place in hell " good luck Brexiteers

Tribesmen wrote:What did Donald Tusk say today , ohhh yer " A special place in hell " good luck Brexiteers

will there be a hard border with hell?

Any government that doesn't listen to the people and it's wishes is totalitarian.
Both Westminster and Brussels are.
Brussels is too inwardly focused on creating a new federal super power, to take into account the wishes of any of its citizens.

Westminster is far too focused on Party Politics, and cheap point scoring off each other, than to look at the issues the people want them to address.
The positive is I think all voters are more dissatisfied with the present incumbents in the HOC than ever before. Tory and Labour. A sea change is coming and long overdue, where people have to make their representatives accountable. The gravy train has to be derailed, and only we can do it.

Agreed - that is the destructive element. As I said I have no political ties and haven't voted for any party for years as I do not believe that the political system represents us fairly. The colours that MP's choose to follow generally stop them from thinking freely as they have to temper their thoughts into what the party needs. Voters tend to do a little of the same. We need bring governance back to more local levels which is why I struggle with Westminster and even more so Brussels as they are way to remote. However that's a whole different debate but what I find distressing is the way that modern day referendums try to get shoe-horned into party politics.

Very accurately summed today by PMQs

"British politics today: Emily Thornberry arguing for a form of Brexit (when she personally opposes Brexit) and David Lidington opposing a customs union (which he personally supports) "

Colburn_Claret wrote:Any government that doesn't listen to the people and it's wishes is totalitarian.
Both Westminster and Brussels are.

No they are not. Political scientist define a modern totalitarian system as having the following six, mutually supportive, defining characteristics:

1) Elaborate guiding ideology.
2) Single mass party, typically led by a dictator.
3) System of terror, using such instruments as violence and secret police.
4) Monopoly on weapons.
5) Monopoly on the means of communication.
6) Central direction and control of the economy through state planning.

What we have right now is a bit of a cr8p parliament in a parliamentary democracy. The fact we have free and fair elections or referendum at all shows we are not under a totalitarian regime.

CombatClaret wrote:No they are not. Political scientist define a modern totalitarian system as having the following six, mutually supportive, defining characteristics:

1) Elaborate guiding ideology.
2) Single mass party, typically led by a dictator.
3) System of terror, using such instruments as violence and secret police.
4) Monopoly on weapons.
5) Monopoly on the means of communication.
6) Central direction and control of the economy through state planning.

What we have right now is a bit of a cr8p parliament in a parliamentary democracy. The fact we have free and fair elections or referendum at all shows we are not under a totalitarian regime.

I'll bow to that combat.
At least we agree they are crap.