Do we still attribute ‘Europe’ to our poor start to the season?

[houseboy]

Ah, so we're back to PL survival at all costs argument. Another £120m to be prioritised.

No wonder the directors were saying at the airport the sooner we're out of this the better.

True - so many think that we are the Bank of Burnley FC and success is measured by how much money you make. That's not football, it's just running a business.

[houseboy]

The club’s current success is NOT dependent on Premier League survival.

We were after all relegated twice. On both occasions we bounced back during the parachute payment period.

For those clubs who did survive for a bit whilst making no serious attempt to win a trophy or progress in Europe - where are they now?

Success in 50 years will be judged by what is on the honours board, and notable scalps especially European ones (so the capital punishment league cup run, for example, will be judged as one of our successes). When I say goodbye to this Earth in what I very much hope will be 50 years, that’s what I want to look back on, not a sequence of lower half finishes.

Beautifully put and absolutely spot on.

[Quickenthetempo]

It probably made more of an impact on the fans to be fair. The atmosphere at all the European games was electric and the premier league has become a bit boring in comparison.

Even 2-0 up at Old Trafford which is as big as it gets for our support at the moment, wasn't a patch on Athens.

[houseboy]

I see this thread has given the "Dyche Out" brigade something to whine about at last....

It is "so last year" people......
Forget it ... we are on a good run enjoy it now and forget our little European Tour (however brief it was)...

Bring on the "Spuds" a week on Saturday and lets raise the roof at t'Turf

Come on you Clarets

Hey Boss you know I'm not a Dyche out man, we've been talking for years, but he was WRONG in doing what he did. I don't want him to go anywhere and he has turned things around but he f***ed our Euro campaign good and proper.

[Lancasterclaret]

Our priority has to be survival in the premier league.

Not because i don't want to win everything, or that I'm happy to settle for mediocrity or anything that has been mentioned above.

The PL money enables my football team with its fanbase to survive and compete at this the top level.

If we win a cup, or finish 7th again, then that is a bonus.

There is no possible scenario where we can ever not start the season as a team whose priority is 40 points, and we'll always be one of those teams (along with 13 others, every season)

Thats the reality

Have to mention as well that I think a lot of posters seemed to expect us to reach the group stages so they could fulfill a dream of following us all around Europe. A lot of those have never accepted that we were robbed in Olympiakos and absolutely destroyed them in the 2nd leg but didn't take our chances.

So yes, I think Europe and the early start damaged us, but not as much as the injuries and loss of form of so many players.

Whatever happens, I'll always remember being in the away end at Aberdeen for our first foray into Europe for decades.

UTC!

[brigante]

Burxiteers

[Tricky Trevor]

Nonsense. Is the limit of your ambition for the club to mess around the foot of the PL?

Not at all. I said at the time and still feel that for a club like ours it has to be baby steps. From a newcomer in the PL to Europe was to big a bound. We didn’t have the quality or squad depth for Europe. We need to cement our place at the top table and gradually improve the quality. In a year or two we will be capable of a cup run and a tilt at a European campaign but not yet.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Some absolute nonsense written about who played and didn't play in Europe for us this season.

6 games in total

Heaton Pope & Hart 5 appearances between them
Lowton 2 Bardsley 4
Taylor 5 Ward 4
Mee 4 Tarkowski 5 Gibson 2 Long 3
Cork 6 Westwood 5 Hendrick 6 JBG 5 Lennon 6
Vokes 6 Barnes 5 Wood 5

Some of the guff put on here makes it sound like we put an under 23 side out and left the first team squad out.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yup.

It not like this board to ignore reality and facts about anything is it...........oh

[Longside4evr]

We were drawn against arguably the strongest teams we could have been with a all host of European resent experience
Us on the other hand were green as
We had a go but if you look at the back end of last season and beyond the warning signs were apparent
The signings were not what we needed a keeper was forced one
Gibson was carrying an injury and Vydra was not cultured to what we needed or the level
Then we were also carrying injuries to our key players
So a lot of the rumours to why we didn't make more of a fist of it were the intrepid chance to strengthen when we should have
Nowt to do with all the guessing games and looking into something that wasn't their
It wasn't a conspiracy it was a simple fact we was not strong enough for the challenge and lacked experience UTC

[houseboy]

Not at all. I said at the time and still feel that for a club like ours it has to be baby steps. From a newcomer in the PL to Europe was to big a bound. We didn’t have the quality or squad depth for Europe. We need to cement our place at the top table and gradually improve the quality. In a year or two we will be capable of a cup run and a tilt at a European campaign but not yet.

I take your point, I really do, but do you not think that EVERY game should be approached as the most important (excepting friendlies of course)? It is here where Dyche amazingly contradicts himself. He always used to say that he never looked beyond the next game - the main focus was always 'the next game', and yet with Europe (and with cups in general) he just doesn't do that, his focus is on the next PL game. To be honest I haven't heard him come out with that little gem in a while so maybe he realises he can't say that and do what he does.
Dyche is a great manager and has done great things with us but I do find his hypocrisy on this matter is somewhat annoying. Let's play every game as if it were the most important and maybe we will have a sniff at a trophy (not this season now of course).

[Tricky Trevor]

but do you not think that EVERY game should be approached as the most important (excepting friendlies of course)? It is here where Dyche amazingly contradicts himself.

Absolutely agree about the contradiction. His selections and performances in cups don't stand up to scrutiny against the “one game at a time” mantra.
I would still ignore the cups for a couple of years and embed ourselves into the PL, improving the squad as we go. The future is bright.

[houseboy]

Absolutely agree about the contradiction. His selections and performances in cups don't stand up to scrutiny against the “one game at a time” mantra.
I would still ignore the cups for a couple of years and embed ourselves into the PL, improving the squad as we go. The future is bright.

The future's Claret.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Our priority has to be survival in the premier league.

That’s a bit like your other favourite Lancs-ism, that the U.K. cannot trade around the world because we have to prioritise trade with the EU. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. No Burnley-teer has ever suggested we should sack off the Premier League, nor play all 11 first choice players for 90 minutes, but there are some crucial positions in each game.

Have to mention as well that I think a lot of posters seemed to expect us to reach the group stages so they could fulfill a dream of following us all around Europe. A lot of those have never accepted that we were robbed in Olympiakos and absolutely destroyed them in the 2nd leg but didn't take our chances.

This is the other common fallacy, that we were robbed. We weren’t robbed. Yes, the ref put a wall 13 yards back (obvious even to those of us sat in the corner), and harshly gave a penalty and sending off, but he also gave us a penalty and how often do we see it levelled up in football?

We lost because we played Long and Gibson (no offence to those two, they were in at the deep end). Long made a crucial error in each game, handing them both a lead and an away goal. Gibson panicked and gave away a free kick, then contrived with Long to leave Jack Cork marking a centre back who scored from the free kick. There weren’t enough leaders playing.

Blame the ref all you want but if Mee and Tarky were in the side rather than (Mee) being spat at behind the bench, it may have been different. Whether or not Dyche or the Board were culpable is debatable, the reason for the defeat isn’t (and in terms of this thread, if many of us still fume about it now, the players must have been fuming for months too, hopefully now out of their system).

[claretonthecoast1882]

Bol*ocks

[Longside4evr]

Sometimes us as fans are far to quick to play the blame game
What you have to do is put yourself in Sean Dyche shoe's and think like you have just put out that team and then analyse things through his eyes
Questions have to be asked when we had such a fantastic season then wilted this into relegation fodder.
Going out of cups isnt good for us fans as it can be a diffrent forcus to the league and a run can be exciting.
But with a club of our size you also have to be forced in many ways to deal your hand and like a game of cards its a gamble
For fans thinking we have no interests in cups is naive
Sean is working miracles with what we've got its not bullshite its the reality UTC

[Lancasterclaret]

Right, where to start with this.

First - you are one of the posters who wanted the manager out, and it did look suspiciously like a fit of pique because you couldn't follow the clarets around Europe. Your post suggests you still do. All I can say to that is that you do like to stick to believing stuff that is totally wrong.

Second - We are never going to be an established Premier League team - those teams are Arsenal, Spurs, Man U, City, Chelsea, Liverpool and possibly Everton. All the others are fighting to stay up every year. That is reality. I never thought Villa would go down, but they did. If we go down, then we have no guarantee that we come back up.

Third - Everyone rotates their squad in cup competitions

Fourth - We should and could have won the second leg four or five nil. Strikers miss chances. It happens.

Fifth - Its not false to claim we were robbed in the first leg. The ref had no justification for sending off Gibson.

I get you are annoyed. I'd love to follow us around Europe, watching us do well, but that is cup football. You can get knocked out.

[bobinho]

Oh good, so we throw away a Euro adventure to be PL also rans?

You're ****** off you didn’t get to see a Euro fixture, I get it. But the club didn’t see it like you see it.

I certainly wouldn’t jeopardise our PL future for a jolly boys outing. As good as it was to qualify, as wonderful as my time in Aberdeen was, and as sad as I am that it’s over, PL survival over a couple of games in a cup we’d never win EVERY time.

We lost Pope in the Aberdeen match, if we lost a couple of first choice outfield players with long term injuries, you’d be chopsing on here like mad now.

Like I say, I’m a little sad it was short lived, but having a good run in that, then going down? Nah. Foolish.

[Longside4evr]

Another thing we have to put into perspective is if we went on a rollercoaster ride in Europe would you remortgage your house or take a stupid loan out so you could see us in Europe and jeopardize your future
What I am getting at is we could have brought in qauity at an high price and still been one hit wonders and then what
I went over to Athens and that memory of that forget the result it was the biggest experience i have had in over 40 odd years of following my team i have had and it will stay with me
Until we happen to have another attempt we will after be better prepared and the finance to support it, you cant win a race with a banger but you can build that banger to win a race.

[JTClaret]

I absolutely believe that rotating the squad was the thing that made a huge difference.

Dyche is renowned for sticking to the same squad - but he didn't. And as such tried to play a different way.
It has taken a long time to find our way again.

I'm not a fan of this Burnley team being rotated. Change players where necessary by all means but not the whole squad.
It's the same for all the cup games, and very rarely works. However if an international break comes it is either a good time or a bad time because of the run we are on.

Until I see us sticking with the same team for cup games, I won't think anything has changed, and as such, aren't ready for Europe - nor will I expect us to do well in a cup.

[FactualFrank]

"Do we still attribute ‘Europe’ to our poor start to the season?"

I do, yes.

[houseboy]

You're ****** off you didn’t get to see a Euro fixture, I get it. But the club didn’t see it like you see it.

I certainly wouldn’t jeopardise our PL future for a jolly boys outing. As good as it was to qualify, as wonderful as my time in Aberdeen was, and as sad as I am that it’s over, PL survival over a couple of games in a cup we’d never win EVERY time.

We lost Pope in the Aberdeen match, if we lost a couple of first choice outfield players with long term injuries, you’d be chopsing on here like mad now.

Like I say, I’m a little sad it was short lived, but having a good run in that, then going down? Nah. Foolish.

First paragraph: yes I did, so why would you make stupid and uninformed statements?
Second paragraph: that's where you and I differ - I am a football fan whilst you are more interested in the money we bring in. What proof have you that we would have jeapordised our PL status had we gone further? None at all. Why would you say PL survival at all costs unless you were interested in the money. Personally I would rather win a cup and be relegated because it would be a trophy as opposed to playing a bit part in something we will never win.
3rd paragraph: why do you think for one second that I would be complaining in any way if we got an injury? Injuries happen and it is a risk worth taking. Fielding a weakened side is to belittle a competition, belittle the fans (of both clubs) and make a mockery of Dyches own mantra of one game at a time. At least he seems to have stopped coming out with that rubbish now.
Finally: why is something 'foolish' because you don't agree with it? I personally think it is wrong for us to chase money whilst letting cup competitions go by like they don't matter, but I wouldn't call someone foolish if they think differently.
We were totally wrong to treat the Euro cup as we did and it has very nearly cost us dear in demotivating the players in my belief, far more than any injuries would.

[Quickenthetempo]

"Do we still attribute ‘Europe’ to our poor start to the season?"

I do, yes.

You sound like a Tory still blaming Labour for the nations problems 9 years on.

[Corky]

I think the reason why we started the season so badly was because being in the European competition, surprisingly, messed with the Managers head. And this had a trickle down effect on the players. The reason I say this is that SD has always, always, always adopted a mantra of one game at a time. However when he was being interviewed about the next european match which was then to be followed by our home game against Man Utd he actually said something along the lines of "well yes obviously we have half an eye on the Utd match" That sort of reinforced my view that europe, quite rightly, had to play second fiddle to the domestic competition but it nonetheless had a detrimental impact on it.

[claretonthecoast1882]

It is easy to claim you would rather win a cup and be relegated when you have already admitted you hardly go on games.

[Reckoner]

Its such a relief that now there is nothing current for people to moan about, we can go back 6 months and start rehashing some old moans. Everyone will then be ready to moan at peak capacity if we lose to Spurs.

[jedi_master]

I don't think Europe had any bearing on the first half of the season (maybe the first 2-3 games, whilst we were in Europe).

I still maintain the biggest thing was the goalkeeping position - not that it was 'Joe Hart Ex England Keeper', but that Heaton was dropped and who knows, maybe there was a bit of talking going on in the dressing room etc, I don't know.

I just don't see it as a coincidence the form since Heaton has come in, not in the slightest. You would have to be mental to not see the difference in our performances since we dropped Hart. There have been a lot of mentions of Hart being a sound bloke etc so this is not a character assassination of him in the slightest, just that the physical act of not playing Heaton once Pope got injured I think shook things up negatively - whether it was Hart or whoever we signed, they should have started the season second fiddle to Heaton.

That was the mistake we made - and have now rectified.

[AndyClaret]

The thing is away in Europe we were making changes but most of the squad travelled, and it's this that knackers them, not so much the playing. We'd have been better off playing a more settled side in all the games or leaving rested players at home, of course our poor summer recruitment meant we didn't have the numbers to do this, coupled with Defour and Brady breaking down.

[bfcmik]

People moaning about playing our squad players - how else do you make sure your squad players are ready to step into the first team when needed unless you give them competitive game time? Do you give them competitive game time in cup competitions where you may win a bit of glory or in the £100+ MILLION prize money competition? As supporters we really want it to be the glory competitions whether it be Europa League, League Cup or FA Cup. For the Manager though, his job depends on keeping the business priorities, and thus the board, sorted. BFC is a business SD, his staff and the players are employees. Sky, BT and other TV streams are the main customers with us fans in a distant last place as far as the business model goes.

[boatshed bill]

No, I attribute our poor start to Europe.

[Longside4evr]

Did the European adventure effect our season start
Read into this what you will.I had a sports car and it was finely tuned and well balanced it had to be as their were better cars on the road
One day a part went and It was replaced for the time being with a cheaper part but i needed the car so for the time being opted for a leaser grade part, it did the job till i eventually got the part for that finely tuned engine.
i then waited to have it tuned up again the difference was amazing.

[jrgbfc]

I think we'd have had a better first half of the season if we'd have made it to the group stage. The buzz of 6 more European games would have created a real feel good atmosphere around the club as opposed to the disappointment and apathy that set in after the Olympiakos home game.

[Stalbansclaret]

Sorry..I still don't get what posters like Houseboy, Crosspool etc actually wanted Dyche to do. Are you saying you wanted him to select our best possible team for the Thursday night games and then weaken the team for the Sunday Premier League games ? ...surely that's completely bonkers. Or do you think, contrary to every other club that's played in this competition, that we have players who could play Thurs and Sun for 6+ weeks with no rotation ?

[summitclaret]

Can't understand why the players would prefer relegation and big wage reductions to a few games in the poxy EL.

[jrgbfc]

Sorry..I still don't get what posters like Houseboy, Crosspool etc actually wanted Dyche to do. Are you saying you wanted him to select our best possible team for the Thursday night games and then weaken the team for the Sunday Premier League games ? ...surely that's completely bonkers. Or do you think, contrary to every other club that's played in this competition, that we have players who could play Thurs and Sun for 6+ weeks with no rotation ?

Well we rested Mee and Tarkowski in Athens and then went and got spanked at Fulham the following Sunday. We picked up so few points following our European games we may as well have rested players in the league. Plus there's a 2 week international break at the beginning of September, so yes with hindsight I think Dyche got it wrong.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Sorry..I still don't get what posters like Houseboy, Crosspool etc actually wanted Dyche to do. Are you saying you wanted him to select our best possible team for the Thursday night games and then weaken the team for the Sunday Premier League games ? ...surely that's completely bonkers. Or do you think, contrary to every other club that's played in this competition, that we have players who could play Thurs and Sun for 6+ weeks with no rotation ?

This thread was all about the degree to which this affected our poor start. It seems to have been hijacked by Dyche defenders trying to find something that isn’t there. I said on an earlier post that I accept that there are two opinions regarding whether the club were wrong, but that it shouldn’t be doubted it was playing a second string defence that cost us rather than that we were robbed. That is all I was saying. In fairness it isn’t you making things up, but one or two others are (I’ve never wanted Dyche sacked, but I did say I wouldn’t shed any tears given that it is clear he cannot take us further without taking the cups seriously).

Having watched that game in Athens it wasn’t that we were robbed (we didn’t concede again after the sending off because Tarky came on and tightened it up). It was that our defence was nowhere near good enough. It was an accident waiting to happen and it did happen 4 times. That atmosphere was frenetic. It needed battle hardened defenders.

So....to finally answer your question. What I wanted him to do was to try to win. They have subsequently knocked out Milan. They have good players. Common sense says play at least one of Mee or Tarky in each game. Play Lennon (who was on the bench) instead of Taylor on the wing. In short, rotation to a degree to protect the Premier League is fine, taking the **** isn’t.

[boatshed bill]

I put it down to injuries and fitness issues, nothing more.