So far from what's been said & whats been reported, all this is the silly girls making.Lancasterclaret wrote:Because she's in a refugee camp in a country in which we have no diplomatic presence.
No one wants to rescue her, but its not easy travelling in a war torn country when heavily pregnant.
O/T I want to come home
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Re: O/T I want to come home
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Wait. Refugee camps don't have airports?Lancasterclaret wrote:Because she's in a refugee camp in a country in which we have no diplomatic presence.
No one wants to rescue her, but its not easy travelling in a war torn country when heavily pregnant.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
So what? Kids climb trees and get stuck, should we abandon them because it was their own fault? Or should we call an emergency service to help them?Jakubclaret wrote:So far from what's been said & whats been reported, all this is the silly girls making.
Oh, wait, the emergency service costs money. I guess they'll just have to fall.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
btw Jakub, if you don't think i'm taking you seriously any more; you're right.
Last edited by Imploding Turtle on Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: O/T I want to come home
So it's Mr. ISIS leader man stopping her coming home not us.Imploding Turtle wrote:"Hiya Mr. ISIS leader man. Can i have my passport back for a minute? I need it for a thing."
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Kids playing mischief climbing trees & kids joining gangs with guns are 2 different things, but don't let me stop you with near identical comparisons.Imploding Turtle wrote:So what? Kids climb trees and get stuck, should we abandon them because it was their own fault?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
I wasn't arguing against that. I'm arguing against the extremist opinion that she shouldn't be allowed to come home.Firthy wrote:So it's Mr. ISIS leader man stopping her coming home not us.
But nice try in moving the goal posts. That almost worked. (it didn't, i'm lying.)
Re: O/T I want to come home
If she has no passport now then she cannot return home and will need to find a UK consulate somewhere to get the papers to get back here, as I recollect when we have been a passport short overseas.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
That takes 2 matey.Imploding Turtle wrote:btw Jakub, if you don't think i'm taking you seriously any more; you're right.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
The comparison was that they made silly decisions. Not that the consequences of their decisions are the exact same.Jakubclaret wrote:Kids playing mischief climbing trees & kids joining gangs with guns are 2 different things, but don't let me stop you with near identical comparisons.
You seem to believe that because she got herself into this mess that we shouldn't help her. Yet that's not an opinion that holds up when applied to other examples of people getting themselves into a mess. So why do you continue to hold that belief?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
What would you do then go on tell me? I've already said just forget about her thats what I'd do, instead of firing questions, answer 1.Imploding Turtle wrote:The comparison was that they made silly decisions. Not that the consequences of their decisions are the exact same.
You seem to believe that because she got herself into this mess that we shouldn't help her. Yet that's not an opinion that holds up when applied to other examples of people getting themselves into a mess. So why do you continue to hold that belief?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
She's given birth apparently.
Not sure if that means the kid is a British citizen or not to be honest.
Not sure if that means the kid is a British citizen or not to be honest.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Was she radicalised? Did someone else radicalise her? Did she watch the stuff on the internet and think “I want some of that?” and make the choice of her own free will? No leniency allowed there cos there’s no one to inform on. Not every lunatic terrorist is radicalised by someone else. Sometimes, they just think that way without anyone else’s influence.lakedistrictclaret wrote:She is a British citizen. The government can't renounce her citizenship, as this would render her stateless.
If she wants to come back to the UK, fine. But she has to understand that she will be interrogated thoroughly and may well be prosecuted under the Terrorism Act, and spend many years in prison.
She would be interviewed about how she became radicalised, and if she if she is prepared to give details about this, including naming names, then she can expect a certain amount of leniency.
She is delusional, however, about the future of her unborn child. If she is allowed back before it is born, the Social Services will be at her bedside at the birth with a Care Order, ready to whisk the baby away. To think that she might keep the child, or even have her family look after it, is unrealistic.
She is of Asian origin. To assume the welfare state and care agencies will whisk her child away is a presumptuous imho. The child will go to her extended family. They will get some liberal human rights scrotum and a slimy top lawyer to ensure that happens, if she ends up banged up.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Lancasterclaret wrote:She's given birth apparently.
Not sure if that means the kid is a British citizen or not to be honest.
I don't see why it wouldn't be.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Good news, the kid has been born in Syria
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Dual nationality, once an application is completed.Imploding Turtle wrote:I don't see why it wouldn't be.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
It becomes interesting if it's true that she's given birth. We refuse to rescue one British citizen based on crimes we think she's committed. But what about this other British citizen who's committed no crimes? Do we rescue that citizen?
I can't wait to hear the reactionaries try to defend what i'm fairly sure their opinion will be.
I can't wait to hear the reactionaries try to defend what i'm fairly sure their opinion will be.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
You're automatically assuming that the kid is a British citizen...Imploding Turtle wrote:It becomes interesting if it's true that she's given birth. We refuse to rescue one British citizen based on crimes we think she's committed. But what about this other British citizen who's committed no crimes? Do we rescue that citizen?
I can't wait to hear the reactionaries try to defend what i'm fairly sure their opinion will be.
Is that the case or is it a Syrian kid with a British and Dutch parents?
Holland also have a duty of care to the child in that case.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
That doesn't appear to be the case.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Dual nationality, once an application is completed.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... t_2015.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's relevant because the woman was born here, i believe.A “British citizen otherwise than by descent” is someone who can pass their
citizenship onto a child born overseas. Generally speaking a British citizen
otherwise than by descent is a British citizen who was born, adopted,
naturalised or, in most cases, registered in the United Kingdom or a qualifying
territory.
later
So the kid is a Brit. Good luck defending not rescuing it.3. CHILDREN BORN OUTSIDE THE UNITED KINGDOM TO BRITISH
CITIZENS OTHERWISE THAN BY DESCENT
A child born outside the United Kingdom will be a British citizen by descent if
either parent is a British citizen otherwise than by descent at the time of the birth.
However, in certain cases, a child who is born to a British citizen otherwise than
by descent may also be a British citizen otherwise than by descent (see section 5
below).
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Re: O/T I want to come home
I'm not defending not rescuing the kid so wind that neck of yours in.Imploding Turtle wrote:That doesn't appear to be the case.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... t_2015.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's relevant because the woman was born here, i believe.
later
So the kid is a Brit. Good luck defending not rescuing it.
I've just read the same sort of information.
They have to be allowed back in, but she's proven that she's part of Isis and has no remorse so it's now down to the authorities to decide what to do with the kid.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
It wasn't directed at you, it was a general statement.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I'm not defending not rescuing the kid so wind that neck of yours in.
I've just read the same sort of information.
They have to be allowed back in, but she's proven that she's part of Isis and has no remorse so it's now down to the authorities to decide what to do with the kid.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
If you were ever up in court are you saying you shouldn't be allowed legal representation, the best you could afford?bobinho wrote: They will get some liberal human rights scrotum and a slimy top lawyer to ensure that happens, if she ends up banged up.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Out of interest, where do we draw the line at who deserves legal representation?
Is it everyone who commits regular crime? Is a white male murderer entitled to it?
Is there a set of criteria that right wingers will allow in regards to people being allowed legal defence? Everyone up to terrorists?
Where's the line?
Is it everyone who commits regular crime? Is a white male murderer entitled to it?
Is there a set of criteria that right wingers will allow in regards to people being allowed legal defence? Everyone up to terrorists?
Where's the line?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
ClaretAndJew wrote:Out of interest, where do we draw the line at who deserves legal representation?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Getting back to your question. This country is not preventing her from coming home and receiving a fair trial, In fact they have said that if she returns home she will be arrested and put on trial if necessary.Imploding Turtle wrote:I wasn't arguing against that. I'm arguing against the extremist opinion that she shouldn't be allowed to come home.
But nice try in moving the goal posts. That almost worked. (it didn't, i'm lying.)
She has no passport, no money and stuck in a refugee camp in Syria so it is ISIS and Syria that are preventing her from returning home not us. Despite having lost two children she gets pregnant for a third time and now she wants this country to rescue her and her baby. This country has no duty to rescue her and bring her home apart from humanitarian reasons and she doesn't qualify on those grounds because there are far more deserving humanitarian causes out there.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
I'll say this one more time. I wasn't arguing against that. Some fools were saying that she shouldn't' be allowed to come back. THAT'S what i was arguing against.Firthy wrote:Getting back to your question. This country is not preventing her from coming home and receiving a fair trial, ...
Do you understand?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
It's cute of you to think that ISIS members are progressive enough as to give her a choice when it comes to getting pregnant or not.Firthy wrote:Getting back to your question. This country is not preventing her from coming home and receiving a fair trial, In fact they have said that if she returns home she will be arrested and put on trial if necessary.
She has no passport, no money and stuck in a refugee camp in Syria so it is ISIS and Syria that are preventing her from returning home not us. Despite having lost two children she gets pregnant for a third time and now she wants this country to rescue her and her baby. This country has no duty to rescue her and bring her home apart from humanitarian reasons and she doesn't qualify on those grounds because there are far more deserving humanitarian causes out there.
Re: O/T I want to come home
I don't think she should be allowed to come back but as the law stands we can't stop her. I do think that the law should be changed to prevent these people being allowed back and that we shouldn't help in in anyway as there is no legal obligation. She got herself in this mess, let her get herself out of it.Imploding Turtle wrote:I'll say this one more time. I wasn't arguing against that. Some fools were saying that she shouldn't' be allowed to come back. THAT'S what i was arguing against.
Do you understand?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Why should she be allowed to come back? What sort of message would that be sending out to other people having doubts, lots of people don't want her back, surely that has to be a consideration, she'd probably have to create a new identity for safety measures at another expensive to the taxpayer. More reasons to forget than to remember.Imploding Turtle wrote:I'll say this one more time. I wasn't arguing against that. Some fools were saying that she shouldn't' be allowed to come back. THAT'S what i was arguing against.
Do you understand?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
No.Spijed wrote:If you were ever up in court are you saying you shouldn't be allowed legal representation, the best you could afford?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
If a Syrian woman travelled to this country and committed terrorism offences presumably you’d be of the opinion that she shouldn’t be allowed to go back to Syria?Firthy wrote:I don't think she should be allowed to come back but as the law stands we can't stop her. I do think that the law should be changed to prevent these people being allowed back and that we shouldn't help in in anyway as there is no legal obligation. She got herself in this mess, let her get herself out of it.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
We are a soft touch and an easy target because we are far too preoccupied with worrying about what other people (nations) think of us.
If you are a homicidal maniac, come to Britain. We will spend fortunes on housing you, protecting you, rehabilitating you, and if that fails, don’t worry, there are literally millions of people here for you to kill and maim, and plenty of liberals to tell us all YOU are the victim, and insist we give you yet another chance.
If you are a homicidal maniac, come to Britain. We will spend fortunes on housing you, protecting you, rehabilitating you, and if that fails, don’t worry, there are literally millions of people here for you to kill and maim, and plenty of liberals to tell us all YOU are the victim, and insist we give you yet another chance.
Re: O/T I want to come home
She wouldn't be able to, she'd be in piecesRileybobs wrote:If a Syrian woman travelled to this country and committed terrorism offences presumably you’d be of the opinion that she shouldn’t be allowed to go back to Syria?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Nice swerve.Firthy wrote:She wouldn't be able to, she'd be in pieces
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Re: O/T I want to come home
I get the sentiments guys, but if you remove the rule of law from certain people, then the precedent is set.
And if you trust a government not to abuse that precedent then you probably need to look a bit closer at history.
And if you trust a government not to abuse that precedent then you probably need to look a bit closer at history.
Re: O/T I want to come home
Well, according to Turtle I'm good at moving the goal postsRileybobs wrote:Nice swerve.
Re: O/T I want to come home
You do realise that's not how the law works ?Jakubclaret wrote:Why should she be allowed to come back? What sort of message would that be sending out to other people having doubts, lots of people don't want her back, surely that has to be a consideration, she'd probably have to create a new identity for safety measures at another expensive to the taxpayer. More reasons to forget than to remember.
Typical over the top extreme views on this thread when it all seems pretty simple to me.
Respect the rule of law which allows her back into this country as a British citizen.
Arrest her on entry and if she is found guilty (should be pretty easy / straightforward given the evidence) she serves the appropriate prison sentence. The baby unfortunately (or fortunately) goes into care / up for adoption and will hopefully live a normal life.
All this stuff about wasting taxpayers money falls into the same category as bringing back hanging or introducing the death sentence...i.e. taxpayers money spent on our prisons is a waste etc
Is that all too logical ? Is it a lefty snowflake view ?
There is also the point that if she knew this is what is facing her on coming back then she would probably change her mind.
Last edited by TVC15 on Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Jakubclaret wrote:Why should she be allowed to come back? What sort of message would that be sending out to other people having doubts, lots of people don't want her back, surely that has to be a consideration, she'd probably have to create a new identity for safety measures at another expensive to the taxpayer. More reasons to forget than to remember.
She should be allowed back because by refusing her entry to her own country we would be violating our own laws.
I don't give a **** what "lots of people" want. No, it doesn't deserve any consideration. If she has to have a new identity that's not her fault, that's the fault of the people who would be threatening her life here under her existing identity.
I don't give a **** how many reasons there are to forget her. This isn't about her. It's about us. Maybe you would like to live in a country where laws can be enforced selectively based on the amount of negative publicity someone gets, but I sure as **** don't'.
Maybe you want to live in a country where the government is allowed to punish its citizens without due process, but I don't.
Maybe you need to be falsely accused of something before you'll appreciate how important due process is, but I don't. I just need to read a history book or two to know how important it is that the accused receive a fair trial before we punish them.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
As funny as that is, there are more terrorist offences than just blowing yourself up.Firthy wrote:She wouldn't be able to, she'd be in pieces
Re: O/T I want to come home
Obviously. Guess you've never heard of humourImploding Turtle wrote:As funny as that is, there are more terrorist offences than just blowing yourself up.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Firthy wrote:Obviously. Guess you've never heard of humour
Did i just say "as funny as that is"?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
You should work for the tourist industry with catchy slogans like that !!bobinho wrote:We are a soft touch and an easy target because we are far too preoccupied with worrying about what other people (nations) think of us.
If you are a homicidal maniac, come to Britain. We will spend fortunes on housing you, protecting you, rehabilitating you, and if that fails, don’t worry, there are literally millions of people here for you to kill and maim, and plenty of liberals to tell us all YOU are the victim, and insist we give you yet another chance.
I don't know the precise details of how our immigration processes work but (and this is a complete guess) I reckon if you put "homicidal maniac" on your application form as your job status you would at the very least be asked if you promise not to do it again before they of course let you in and give you a nice 4 bedroomed detached house in Notting Hill.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
History is history, treason was punishable until the 19th century by some grisly methods, you are obviously ignoring the wider picture of other people potentially travelling to foreign countries & doing the same things, it's a can of worms believe me, if its about "us" it's better to forget & move on, it's the only way to promote a peaceful society, people who wish to do me & my family harm i want them as far away as possible not on my own doorstep.Imploding Turtle wrote:She should be allowed back because by refusing her entry to her own country we would be violating our own laws.
I don't give a **** what "lots of people" want. No, it doesn't deserve any consideration. If she has to have a new identity that's not her fault, that's the fault of the people who would be threatening her life here under her existing identity.
I don't give a **** how many reasons there are to forget her. This isn't about her. It's about us. Maybe you would like to live in a country where laws can be enforced selectively based on the amount of negative publicity someone gets, but I sure as **** don't'.
Maybe you want to live in a country where the government is allowed to punish its citizens without due process, but I don't.
Maybe you need to be falsely accused of something before you'll appreciate how important due process is, but I don't. I just need to read a history book or two to know how important it is that the accused receive a fair trial before we punish them.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Jakubclaret wrote:History is history, treason was punishable until the 19th century by some grisly methods, you are obviously ignoring the wider picture of other people potentially travelling to foreign countries & doing the same things, it's a can of worms believe me, if its about "us" it's better to forget & move on, it's the only way to promote a peaceful society, people who wish to do me & my family harm i want them as far away as possible not on my own doorstep.
It's ******* hilarious that you're accusing me of ignoring the wider picture, when you're the one who wants to do away with the most fundamental tenet of our justice system.
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm fully aware that some people will benefit from knowing that they will still be able to come home if they make the same decision as this girl. That's a small price to pay for not completely undermining our entire system of justice.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Agree to disagree, i understand from a legal viewpoint its the law, it's not appropriate to have her back even if the law accepts this, i can't personally change that. How this could become beneficial to other people with the same intent to our best interests is a headscratcher.Imploding Turtle wrote:It's ******* hilarious that you're accusing me of ignoring the wider picture, when you're the one who wants to do away with the most fundamental tenet of our justice system.
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm fully aware that some people will benefit from knowing that they will still be able to come home if they make the same decision as this girl. That's a small price to pay for not completely undermining our entire system of justice.
Re: O/T I want to come home
"Appropriate" ?.....not appropriate to uphold the law ?Jakubclaret wrote:Agree to disagree, i understand from a legal viewpoint its the law, it's not appropriate to have her back even if the law accepts this, i can't personally change that. How this could become beneficial to other people with the same intent to our best interests is a headscratcher.
Do you suggest picking and choosing when to enforce the law dependent on public opinion ? How exactly would this work ?....an internet vote ?
What is wrong with arresting her on entry and giving her a fair trial ?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
A headscratcher?Jakubclaret wrote:Agree to disagree, i understand from a legal viewpoint its the law, it's not appropriate to have her back even if the law accepts this, i can't personally change that. How this could become beneficial to other people with the same intent to our best interests is a headscratcher.
Have you ever heard the term "the cure is worse than the disease"? For example, to cure a headache by chopping off the head. It's beneficial to endure the headache rather than to chop off your head. Agree?
It is beneficial to endure the headache of a few possible terrorists benefiting from knowing that they can come back home because the only way to cure that problem would be to chop off the head of our justice system.
Re: O/T I want to come home
Probably not the best analogy in this caseImploding Turtle wrote:A headscratcher?
Have you ever heard the term "the cure is worse than the disease"? For example, to cure a headache by chopping off the head. It's beneficial to endure the headache rather than to chop off your head. Agree?
It is beneficial to endure the headache of a few possible terrorists benefiting from knowing that they can come back home because the only way to cure that problem would be to chop off the head of our justice system.
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Re: O/T I want to come home
How about some responsibility you seem to like this word when it suits your argument. Should this girl have been responsible yes that word again before deciding to join ISIS. I've pretty much said what I've had to say on this thread & don't wish to circular repeat, disagree & move on.TVC15 wrote:"Appropriate" ?.....not appropriate to uphold the law ?
Do you suggest picking and choosing when to enforce the law dependent on public opinion ? How exactly would this work ?....an internet vote ?
What is wrong with arresting her on entry and giving her a fair trial ?
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Re: O/T I want to come home
Except what you want to do is illegal.Jakubclaret wrote:How about some responsibility you seem to like this word when it suits your argument. Should this girl have been responsible yes that word again before deciding to join ISIS. I've pretty much said what I've had to say on this thread & don't wish to circular repeat, disagree & move on.