Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

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Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Clarets4me » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:14 pm

I appreciate this post is one for the statto's or historians ....

I thought I read somewhere years ago that Burnley had not paid a fee to another English League Club from 1951 until we signed Frank Casper from Rotherham in June 1967 for £30,000. I'm fully aware that players were signed from Irish, Scottish and non-league Clubs, famously spotted by our scouting network, and then developed, but largely for nominal fees or a promise of a pre-season friendly etc ..

Any thoughts ?

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by tim_noone » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:28 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I appreciate this post is one for the statto's or historians ....

I thought I read somewhere years ago that Burnley had not paid a fee to another English League Club from 1951 until we signed Frank Casper from Rotherham in June 1967 for £30,000. I'm fully aware that players were signed from Irish, Scottish and non-league Clubs, famously spotted by our scouting network, and then developed, but largely for nominal fees or a promise of a pre-season friendly etc ..

Any thoughts ?
I remember Casper coming t' turf was quite a buzz about him signing like it was a big deal.. Only remember us selling players.. Like Lochead a crowd favourite to Villa but I've know idea why... Someone will know.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Royboyclaret » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:29 pm

That's basically how it was back then, with literally most of the players coming through the junior ranks.

We had an incredible youth policy at the time and were able to attract the cream of the youngsters pretty much because of our reputation for their pathway through to the first team.

When Casper arrived it caused quite a shock in that we never spent money on a player but I think Harry Potts remembered the special goal he scored against us in an FA Cup tie three seasons earlier. To be honest Frank quickly repaid the transfer fee scoring in his first three games.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Longside4evr » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:42 pm

And one of the reasons was all clubs were English owned and a working class game
it was a hell of a lot more of a level play ground then
now to compete you have to be like sheep and if your stock is below the grade you get fleeced
its late time to go
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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:07 am

Clarets4me wrote:I appreciate this post is one for the statto's or historians ....

I thought I read somewhere years ago that Burnley had not paid a fee to another English League Club from 1951 until we signed Frank Casper from Rotherham in June 1967 for £30,000. I'm fully aware that players were signed from Irish, Scottish and non-league Clubs, famously spotted by our scouting network, and then developed, but largely for nominal fees or a promise of a pre-season friendly etc ..

Any thoughts ?
We signed Casper, as you say, in the summer of 1967. The previous money signing was Alex Elder in 1959 but he was from Glentoran. I'm not sure when the previous transfer was made from another English club but we did sign Billy Elliott from Bradford PA in August 1951.
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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:08 am

Update: Just looking through the list of players and we signed Billy Gray from Chelsea in August 1953. That's the most recent I can find.
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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Clarets4me » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:28 am

ClaretTony wrote:Update: Just looking through the list of players and we signed Billy Gray from Chelsea in August 1953. That's the most recent I can find.
Imagine what this Board would have looked like back then, if such a thing existed .....

" How big is Mr Lord's Dry Powder Store ? " , posts FulledgeWalter, " No wonder they're having to build that there fancy " Training Centre ", it's to store all our shillings Mr Lord isn't spending " adds RosehillRay ..... " Spending money on a fancy roof for the Longside " moans SinatraSid, " I've seen a lad playing for Bradford Park Ave who's far better than Tommy Cummings " ...... etc. etc. :D :D
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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Royboyclaret » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:03 am

Clarets4me wrote:Imagine what this Board would have looked like back then, if such a thing existed .....

" How big is Mr Lord's Dry Powder Store ? " , posts FulledgeWalter, " No wonder they're having to build that there fancy " Training Centre ", it's to store all our shillings Mr Lord isn't spending " adds RosehillRay ..... " Spending money on a fancy roof for the Longside " moans SinatraSid, " I've seen a lad playing for Bradford Park Ave who's far better than Tommy Cummings " ...... etc. etc. :D :D
Not really, the subtle difference being that with the policy we adopted we were actually at the forefront of the game during that period.

Remarkable to think that the side that won the Championship in '59/'60 and reached the FA Cup Final in 1962 contained only two players, Alex Elder and Jimmy Mac who cost the Club a transfer fee, a combined £13,000 for the two of them.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Longside4evr » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:58 am

And what a relief it must have been back then know wonder the transfer fees were moderate No bloody greedy agents to spank you.

Signing on fee would have being the price of a packet of woodbine.

A win bonus was another, and if you scored an hatrick it would have being like your coupon had come up.
And I bet the money was handed over in a briefcase with a nice golden handshake

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:06 am

Longside4evr wrote:And what a relief it must have been back then know wonder the transfer fees were moderate No bloody greedy agents to spank you.

Signing on fee would have being the price of a packet of woodbine.

A win bonus was another, and if you scored an hatrick it would have being like your coupon had come up.
And I bet the money was handed over in a briefcase with a nice golden handshake
Signing on fees: In 1976, Joe Brown was signing Brian Chambers from Luton around the same time as we signed Terry Cochrane and brought in Malcolm Smith on loan. Chambers then asked for a signing on fee so Brown pulled us out of the move. He said at the time that players who move for money are always the first ones who want out when things aren’t going well.
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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Lord Beamish » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:12 am

tim_noone wrote:I remember Casper coming t' turf was quite a buzz about him signing like it was a big deal.. Only remember us selling players.. Like Lochead a crowd favourite to Villa but I've know idea why... Someone will know.
Wasn’t Lochhead sold to Leicester City?

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:15 am

Lord Beamish wrote:Wasn’t Lochhead sold to Leicester City?
He was sold to Leicester and played in the 1969 FA Cup Final for them.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by martin_p » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:16 am

Royboyclaret wrote:Not really, the subtle difference being that with the policy we adopted we were actually at the forefront of the game during that period.

Remarkable to think that the side that won the Championship in '59/'60 and reached the FA Cup Final in 1962 contained only two players, Alex Elder and Jimmy Mac who cost the Club a transfer fee, a combined £13,000 for the two of them.
It does need contextualising though. What were other clubs doing at the time? (And I don’t know the answer by the way).

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:19 am

martin_p wrote:It does need contextualising though. What were other clubs doing at the time? (And I don’t know the answer by the way).
Precious little is the answer. Newcastle and Sunderland, in particular, stood and watched as a procession of young lads from the north east made their way to Gawthorpe. Eventually, all these clubs caught on.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by martin_p » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:23 am

ClaretTony wrote:Precious little is the answer. Newcastle and Sunderland, in particular, stood and watched as a procession of young lads from the north east made their way to Gawthorpe. Eventually, all these clubs caught on.
So were other clubs spending lots of money (by 1950s standards)? Was it just us that spent so little and achieved success?

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:06 pm

martin_p wrote:So were other clubs spending lots of money (by 1950s standards)? Was it just us that spent so little and achieved success?
Before my time but Sunderland were big spenders I think then. We decided to bring kids in and train them. Alan Brown was behind it all and we were ahead of the game which enabled us to get ahead of bigger clubs.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Tricky Trevor » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:26 pm

Before Bosman the clubs had everything in their favour.
Bobby Moore couldn’t get away from West Ham as late as the 70s, even though Derby were willing to pay him a fortune.

If they didn’t want to sell they didn’t sell. We were a selling club.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Longside4evr » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:42 pm

Just out of interest what year I would have imagined mid fifties though when our Gawthorpe training set up its youth development and who was the orchestrator of this development that brought us our fame and fortune.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by exilecanada » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:13 pm

I remember the glory years vividly. We had what seemed like a never ending supply of young players coming through the ranks ready to step in when the ‘stars’ were sold off. This was due to our scouting network, predominantly the North East area. We were the first club to have an off site training facility, namely Gawthorpe. Our reputation for bringing the kids along didn’t go unnoticed by Tommy Docherty, he sent his son Mick to be trained by Burnley knowing Mick would reach his full potential.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:58 pm

Longside4evr wrote:Just out of interest what year I would have imagined mid fifties though when our Gawthorpe training set up its youth development and who was the orchestrator of this development that brought us our fame and fortune.
Gawthorpe opened in July 1955


http://www.uptheclarets.com/gawthorpe-62-years-on" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by claretfern » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:04 pm

Was under the impression that goalkeeper Rodney Jones came just before Casper, but maybe we didn't pay a fee for him???

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:17 pm

claretfern wrote:Was under the impression that goalkeeper Rodney Jones came just before Casper, but maybe we didn't pay a fee for him???
He did sign before Casper but it must have been a free because Frank is always considered to be the first signing for a few since Elder. Next time I get the chance I’ll look that one up.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Clarets4me » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:29 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Before my time but Sunderland were big spenders I think then. We decided to bring kids in and train them. Alan Brown was behind it all and we were ahead of the game which enabled us to get ahead of bigger clubs.
I believe Sunderland were known as the " Bank of England " Club for a period, such was their transfer spending !

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:00 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I believe Sunderland were known as the " Bank of England " Club for a period, such was their transfer spending !
They were, and then Everton became the big spenders for a while after that.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Longside4evr » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:23 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Gawthorpe opened in July 1955


http://www.uptheclarets.com/gawthorpe-62-years-on" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Love this bit its like the training facilities have done a full circle.

He had a massive influence on Brian Clough, who he later coached at Sunderland, and, of course, in turn, Clough was a massive influence on our current manager Sean Dyche. So it seems very appropriate that Dyche is the man in charge as Brown’s dream has been given the upgrade that has been needed for so long.
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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Sausage » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:18 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Imagine what this Board would have looked like back then, if such a thing existed .....

" How big is Mr Lord's Dry Powder Store ? " , posts FulledgeWalter, " No wonder they're having to build that there fancy " Training Centre ", it's to store all our shillings Mr Lord isn't spending " adds RosehillRay ..... " Spending money on a fancy roof for the Longside " moans SinatraSid, " I've seen a lad playing for Bradford Park Ave who's far better than Tommy Cummings " ...... etc. etc. :D :D
I doff my cap to Clarets4me for delivering the best post I've seen on here for a long, long time.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by tim_noone » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:27 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:Wasn’t Lochhead sold to Leicester City?
I knew there was a Villa connection ...somewhere in the mix. :shock:

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Longside4evr » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:43 pm

Doesn't seem Sunderland have learnt their lesson from being branded The Bank Of England in the 50s to modern day ere :roll: :roll:
All though paying there dept back and since there recent demise they had to tighten the purse string but bet they still have the biggest accounts in that league by a long chalk
dont know if they had to sit out an embargo and served a FFP penalty

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Claretforever » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:57 pm

martin_p wrote:It does need contextualising though. What were other clubs doing at the time? (And I don’t know the answer by the way).
One example would be Tottenham Hotspur, and to put things into perspective their squad in 1959/60 included:

Danny Blanchflower £30,000 (1954)
Maurice Norman £28,000 (November 1955)
Bobby Smith £18,000 (December 1955)
Terry Medwin £25,000 (May 1956)
Cliff Jones £35,000 (1958)
Dave Mackay £32,000 (March 1959)
Billy Brown £16,500 (1959)
John White £22,000 (October 1959)
Les Allen £20,000 (December 1959)

Total: £226,500

Further signings to 1967:

Jimmy Greaves £99,999 (December 1961)
Alan Mullery £80,000 (March 1964)
Alan Gilzean £72,500 (July 1964)
Pat Jennings £27,000 (July 1964)
Cyrill Knowles £45,000 (July 1964)
Terry venables £80,000 (May 1966)
Mike England £95,000 (August 1966) *record for a defender
Dennis Bond £30,000 (March 1967)

Total:£529,499
OVERALL: £755,999

Manchester United signings over that 1951-1959 period:

John Berry £15,000 (August 1951)
Tommy Taylor £29,999 (March 1953)
Harry Gregg £23,500 (December 1957)
Ernie Taylor £8,000 (February 1958)
Albert Quixall £45,000 (September 1958)

Total: £121,499

Further signings to 1967:

Maurice Setters £30,000 (1960)
Tony Dunne £6,000 (1960)
Noel Cantwell £29,950 (November 1960)
David Herd £35,000 (July 1961)
Denis Law £110,000 (August 1962)
Paddy Crerand £56,000 (February 1963)
Graham Moore £35,000 (December 1963)
John Connelly £56,000 (1964)
Patrick Dunne £10,500 (May 1964)
Alex Stepney £55,000 (August 1966)

Total: £423,450
OVERALL: £544,949
Last edited by Claretforever on Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Claretforever » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:07 pm

When you put into perspective what our club achieved during that period, rightfully considered peers with the top clubs with massive spending power, we massively over achieved:

*16 top 10 finishes
*5 top 4 finishes (would have been Champions League positions had the format been the same back then)
*1 League title
*1 League runner up
*1 FA Cup final
*1 FA cup semi final (Besides above)
*5 FA Cup quarter finals (Besides above)
*1 League cup semi final
*1 League cup quarter final
*1 European Cup quarter final
*1 European Fairs Cup quarter final
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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by lancastrian » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:18 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Update: Just looking through the list of players and we signed Billy Gray from Chelsea in August 1953. That's the most recent I can find.
Billy Elliot was signed I think from Bradford City in the early 1950's.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:38 pm

lancastrian wrote:Billy Elliot was signed I think from Bradford City in the early 1950's.
He wasn't - he was signed from Bradford Park Avenue in August 1951

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Royboyclaret » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:43 pm

Some terrific research from Claretforever.

Applying those Tottenham numbers to the '62 Cup Final against Burnley, it's apparent we were lucky to even be on the same pitch !!

Tottenham - Brown £16k, Baker ?, Henry ?, Blanchflower £30k, Norman £28k, Mackay £32k, Medwin £25k, White £22k, Smith £18k, Greaves £100k & Jones £35k........Total £306,000.

Burnley - Blacklaw 0, Angus 0, Elder £8k, Adamson 0, Cummings 0, Miller 0, Connelly 0, McIlroy £5k, Pointer 0, Robson 0, Harris 0........Total £13,000.

What a credit we were to the First Division during that period.
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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Claretforever » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:10 pm

Our records over that period with those two clubs:

Spurs:
Won 16
Drew 9
Lost 12

United:
Won 14
Drew 5
Lost 17

Pretty close really. United gained 5 titles during that period though, and Spurs 2. We could argue we should have had another title at least in ‘62 but for a dramatic collapse.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Longside4evr » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:11 pm

Claretforever wrote:When you put into perspective what our club achieved during that period, rightfully considered peers with the top clubs with massive spending power, we massively over achieved:

*16 top 10 finishes
*5 top 4 finishes (would have been Champions League positions had the format been the same back then)
*1 League title
*1 League runner up
*1 FA Cup final
*1 FA cup semi final (Besides above)
*5 FA Cup quarter finals (Besides above)
*1 League cup semi final
*1 League cup quarter final
*1 European Cup quarter final
*1 European Fairs Cup quarter final
Then after that monument of a list we had to wait till 73 season then 12 December 1978 Anglo Scottish cup for silverware not quite the same ring to it as it :roll:

https://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/club/history/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by tiger76 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:27 pm

Claretforever wrote:When you put into perspective what our club achieved during that period, rightfully considered peers with the top clubs with massive spending power, we massively over achieved:

*16 top 10 finishes
*5 top 4 finishes (would have been Champions League positions had the format been the same back then)
*1 League title
*1 League runner up
*1 FA Cup final
*1 FA cup semi final (Besides above)
*5 FA Cup quarter finals (Besides above)
*1 League cup semi final
*1 League cup quarter final
*1 European Cup quarter final
*1 European Fairs Cup quarter final
We definitely punched above our weight,and played with panache,arguably it should have been more than 1 League title,1961-62 was a missed opportunity,so close to the double,and more FA Cups Tottenham were a nuisance in the 60's.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Royboyclaret » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:33 pm

Claretforever wrote:Our records over that period with those two clubs:

Spurs:
Won 16
Drew 9
Lost 12

United:
Won 14
Drew 5
Lost 17

Pretty close really. United gained 5 titles during that period though, and Spurs 2. We could argue we should have had another title at least in ‘62 but for a dramatic collapse.
We were any number of points clear at Easter in '62 but somehow contrived to throw it away and literally hand the title to Ipswich.

I think it was just a few months later when Peter Swan, Tony Kay & Bronco Layne 'ensured' that Ipswich won the points against Sheff Wednesday and were sent down for their misdemeanours. Did we finish 3rd that season?

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by South West Claret. » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:37 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I appreciate this post is one for the statto's or historians ....

I thought I read somewhere years ago that Burnley had not paid a fee to another English League Club from 1951 until we signed Frank Casper from Rotherham in June 1967 for £30,000. I'm fully aware that players were signed from Irish, Scottish and non-league Clubs, famously spotted by our scouting network, and then developed, but largely for nominal fees or a promise of a pre-season friendly etc ..

Any thoughts ?
Yes that’s broadly right.

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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by South West Claret. » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:46 pm

tim_noone wrote:I remember Casper coming t' turf was quite a buzz about him signing like it was a big deal.. Only remember us selling players.. Like Lochead a crowd favourite to Villa but I've know idea why... Someone will know.
Burnley had to sell to survive and did it very successfully for many years but then began to have to sell more each year, because the other clubs had cottened on to our game and began to mop up the young talent themselves, also the gate money was split differently so small clubs lost out there.

We found it more difficult to attract the kids as the bigger clubs could offer more so the conveyer belt ran out.

Claretforever
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Re: Burnley's Transfer policy in the 1950's/1960's ...

Post by Claretforever » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:50 am

South West Claret. wrote:Burnley had to sell to survive and did it very successfully for many years but then began to have to sell more each year, because the other clubs had cottened on to our game and began to mop up the young talent themselves, also the gate money was split differently so small clubs lost out there.

We found it more difficult to attract the kids as the bigger clubs could offer more so the conveyer belt ran out.
I’d argue the gate money helped smaller clubs? Until the early 1980’s the desire to get to the top League, as well as status, was that home gates we partly shared with the away clubs, so a club like Burnley, getting 18-25,000 averages, were sharing in the money of the big clubs averaging 45-50,000.

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