Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

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bobinho
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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by bobinho » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:27 pm

Maybe. But things need to be paid for. And as we ALL know, the left cannot be trusted yet with the purse strings.

Maybe they tried, but couldn't get past the permissions required from Brussels to do ANYTHING.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:43 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi IT, what do you mean about "having fewer renewable resources?" Does the wind not blow in Germany? Does the sun not shine in Germany more than it does in the UK - particularly in the south?

This blog, Jan-2016 has some stats on energy in Germany. I don't know the guy authoring the blog - I'm sure you'll let us know if he's on the "right" side.

https://energytransition.org/2016/01/ge ... power-not/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note that renewables is 30% of German power generation (or perhaps it's capacity - not clear on the chart).

Note that coal in total is 44% - of which lignite (brown coal) is 24%.

And, in case you've not researched my point, take a look at what wikipedia has to say about lignite:

"Lignite, often referred to as brown coal, is a soft, brown, combustible, sedimentary rock formed from naturally compressed peat. It is considered the lowest rank of coal due to its relatively low heat content. It has a carbon content around 60–70 percent. It is mined all around the world, is used almost exclusively as a fuel for steam-electric power generation, and is the coal which is most harmful to health."

As I've posted the best way for the youngsters to progress the discussion is to keep studying hard.

EDIT: Wiki also includes a table of lignite mined in 2015: 1st Germany 178 million tonnes, 2nd China 140, 3rd Russia 73.2.

We have more capacity for wind generation because we're quite possibly the windiest habitable part of the world, we have more capacity for tidal generation available to us if we choose to install it. We probably even have more capacity for solar too, but that depends a lot on the type of solar generation and other factors beyond just land area.

Germany are beating us despite us having literally more renewable resources available to us.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Hipper » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:46 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi IT, what do you mean about "having fewer renewable resources?" Does the wind not blow in Germany? Does the sun not shine in Germany more than it does in the UK - particularly in the south?
I guess he means they don't have natural Hydro-electric (as in Scotland), although of course they have dams. They also don't have tidal - the Baltic has almost no tides.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Taffy on the wing » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:57 pm

bobinho wrote:Maybe. But things need to be paid for. And as we ALL know, the left cannot be trusted yet with the purse strings.

Maybe they tried, but couldn't get past the permissions required from Brussels to do ANYTHING.
Pure Fallacy! Just look at the debt racked up by the Tories...........open your eyes!

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:57 pm

Paul Waine wrote:As I've said Taffy, I recommend the youngsters spend their time in school.

Yes, Germany has built a lot of renewable generation capacity - but they are still using the dirtiest, most polluting brown coal for a very large part of their elec needs - and they are still struggling to work out how they will stop doing it. Meanwhile, following the Japanese nuclear disaster, Germany is shutting down its nuclear generation.
I've looked at the blog you link and yes, coal does make up a large part of their energy generation, albeit still lower than when the chart began in 2003, and based on that chart, since 2003 call coal generation has dropped by over 10%

What is clear is that renewable is replacing the more expensive of the dirty sources first, as opposed to the most dirty first. Coal is cheaper than nuclear and natural gas. So economically speaking it makes more sense for renewables to replace the most expensive sources first. It's not my preferred way of doing it, but then people bitch and cry about energy bills going up 5p a day so there's probably very good political reasons why Germany is taking the more economical way of phasing out fossil fuels than the more carbon efficient way.

Maybe if the climate change deniers cared less about money then perhaps Germany would have chosen to phase out coal first. But they didn't.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:57 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:We have more capacity for wind generation because we're quite possibly the windiest habitable part of the world, we have more capacity for tidal generation available to us if we choose to install it. We probably even have more capacity for solar too, but that depends a lot on the type of solar generation and other factors beyond just land area.

Germany are beating us despite us having literally more renewable resources available to us.
Hi IT, what data do you have to back up any of those claims?

And, do you know when Germany plans to shut down all their coal fuelled generation plants? (The UK plan is 2025).

FT Jan-2019: Germany set to phase out coal-fired power stations by 2038


Some extracts: "Germany is set to phase out all its coal-fired power stations by 2038, under a plan agreed by a government-appointed commission.The keenly awaited deal, announced on Saturday, calls for massive financial transfers — worth €40bn over the next 20 years — to regions in Germany where coal mining and coal power still play a significant role. The commission also wants Berlin to shield households and the private sector from the rise in electricity prices that is expected to follow the phase-out, a move that could cost taxpayers a further €2bn a year.The plan — if implemented by the government in the years ahead — would see Germany join a growing number of countries around the world that have decided to end the use of coal, a key source of greenhouse gas emissions.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:06 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi IT, what data do you have to back up any of those claims?

And, do you know when Germany plans to shut down all their coal fuelled generation plants? (The UK plan is 2025).

FT Jan-2019: Germany set to phase out coal-fired power stations by 2038


Some extracts: "Germany is set to phase out all its coal-fired power stations by 2038, under a plan agreed by a government-appointed commission.The keenly awaited deal, announced on Saturday, calls for massive financial transfers — worth €40bn over the next 20 years — to regions in Germany where coal mining and coal power still play a significant role. The commission also wants Berlin to shield households and the private sector from the rise in electricity prices that is expected to follow the phase-out, a move that could cost taxpayers a further €2bn a year.The plan — if implemented by the government in the years ahead — would see Germany join a growing number of countries around the world that have decided to end the use of coal, a key source of greenhouse gas emissions.

Yes. Do you know WHY it's taking them so long to phase coal out? Because people **** a ******* brick after Fukushima so the German government pandered to their fears by prioritising getting rid of nuclear power.

Again, perhaps if their public wasn't so ******* stupid then maybe they'd have been able to phase coal out sooner.

As for your request for data that we're windier and more tidal than Germany. Jesus Christ.
I'm not going to spend more time looking into this for you, but yes, we're the windiest country in Europe - http://www.renewablesolutionconsultancy ... -in-europe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And do i really need to get the exact figures, or will you just trust me that our coast line is longer than Germany's?

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:15 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I've looked at the blog you link and yes, coal does make up a large part of their energy generation, albeit still lower than when the chart began in 2003, and based on that chart, since 2003 call coal generation has dropped by over 10%

What is clear is that renewable is replacing the more expensive of the dirty sources first, as opposed to the most dirty first. Coal is cheaper than nuclear and natural gas. So economically speaking it makes more sense for renewables to replace the most expensive sources first. It's not my preferred way of doing it, but then people bitch and cry about energy bills going up 5p a day so there's probably very good political reasons why Germany is taking the more economical way of phasing out fossil fuels than the more carbon efficient way.

Maybe if the climate change deniers cared less about money then perhaps Germany would have chosen to phase out coal first. But they didn't.
Hi IT, I like your idea that Germany is replacing the most expensive source of power generation first - except that's not correct. Germany has enormously subsidised their investment in green energy - and, I've no complaints about that - but, it's not been a programme driven by economics; their subsidies for wind and solar have massively taken their costs above the cost of the power that has been replaced. It's only when you factor in the externalities of the power generation source that you may determine that "clean, renewable" energy is "lower overall cost" than dirtier sources of generation - and, I'm OK if their choice is that nuclear energy can also be "dirty" - if the risk of a nuclear accident is factored in. (Meanwhile, France, next door to Germany, still operates one of the largest fleets of nuclear generators in the world). But, if you classify generation by emissions then lignite is the most expensive of all, and hard coal the next. Natural gas is relatively clean in comparions. And, if you've already built nuclear generators there is relatively little cost of continuing to operate them, safely - and generating carbon free energy - until they reach the end of their design life.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by bobinho » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:26 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:Pure Fallacy! Just look at the debt racked up by the Tories...........open your eyes!
So after leaving government last time, they didn’t leave a note on the treasury desk saying “sorry, there’s no money left” or words to that effect?

Serious to the end eh? Glad they saw the funny side of it tho...

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:37 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:
And do i really need to get the exact figures, or will you just trust me that our coast line is longer than Germany's?
Hi IT, looks like we are in agreement about Germany's decision to close their nuclear generation.

Re tidal power - which I assume is what your reference to UK's coastline is all about - how many viable tidal power schemes are there anywhere in the world?

That's why I recommend the youngsters to continue with their studies. Maybe the UK will be able to met a lot of the countries energy requirements from tidal power in the future. I'd love it if we did. I'd also love it if it had to be more expensive than all other sources because good clean, always available energy is worth the premium.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:04 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi IT, I like your idea that Germany is replacing the most expensive source of power generation first - except that's not correct. Germany has enormously subsidised their investment in green energy - and, I've no complaints about that - but, it's not been a programme driven by economics; their subsidies for wind and solar have massively taken their costs above the cost of the power that has been replaced. It's only when you factor in the externalities of the power generation source that you may determine that "clean, renewable" energy is "lower overall cost" than dirtier sources of generation - and, I'm OK if their choice is that nuclear energy can also be "dirty" - if the risk of a nuclear accident is factored in. (Meanwhile, France, next door to Germany, still operates one of the largest fleets of nuclear generators in the world). But, if you classify generation by emissions then lignite is the most expensive of all, and hard coal the next. Natural gas is relatively clean in comparions. And, if you've already built nuclear generators there is relatively little cost of continuing to operate them, safely - and generating carbon free energy - until they reach the end of their design life.
The graph your link showed demonstrates that the biggest reduction in fossil fuel use has come from their most expensive fossil fuels. Nuclear and Natural gas are more expensive than coal. The biggest reductions have come in nuclear and natural gas. It's not really debatable. And of course it's driven by economics. It's all driven by economics. The opposition to renewables is driven by economics therefore the only real way of getting renewables adopted is to do it in line with economic practices.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:29 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:The graph your link showed demonstrates that the biggest reduction in fossil fuel use has come from their most expensive fossil fuels. Nuclear and Natural gas are more expensive than coal. The biggest reductions have come in nuclear and natural gas. It's not really debatable. And of course it's driven by economics. It's all driven by economics. The opposition to renewables is driven by economics therefore the only real way of getting renewables adopted is to do it in line with economic practices.
Hi IT, some truth in what you state, but not the whole truth.

What's been happening to the price of coal over the past several years? It's been falling? Why? because demand has been falling. Why has demand for coal been falling? Because the USA started fracking for natural gas and the nat gas price fell massively - and so, US generators switched on-mass from coal to nat.gas. The switch is also why the US reports such great figures for carbon emissions reductions.

Why is nat.gas still expensive in Europe? Because the greater volumes of European nat.gas supplies are sold (particularly by Gazprom/Russian state owned) on an oil indexed price basis - and the oil price is currently a little over $60/bbl. It has been over $100/bbl and below $30/bbl in the past 5 years.

The European Union (led by UK at the time) introduced carbon trading scheme - 2004 ish, from memory. EU ETS has had a chequered history to date, carbon allowance prices sometimes high, but sometimes also very low. They've tended to be low when countries have over-issued the available allowances - and, when activity fell - as happened after 2008. So, the UK has also introduced carbon tax.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:31 pm

I think i literally said that nat gas was more expensive than coal.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:17 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think i literally said that nat gas was more expensive than coal.
and you may have noticed my response: "some truth in what you state, but not the whole truth."

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Clarets4me » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:43 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:Pure Fallacy! Just look at the debt racked up by the Tories...........open your eyes!
The Tories inherited an annual deficit of £152,000,000,000 when they formed a coalition with the Lib-Dems in 2010, you will no doubt recall Labour Treasury Secretary, Liam Byrne's infamous " There's no money left ! " note left for his successor. Government finances cannot be turned around in 6 or even 12 months ...

In 2009, the Republic of Ireland Government announced pay cuts of between 5 and 20% for public sector employees, as well as cuts in sickness and welfare benefits. I would describe that as austerity measures.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... r-pay-cuts

When Blair's Government was first elected in 1997, it ran a budget surplus for the first three years, and a balanced budget in the fourth, as they'd pledged to follow the Conservative spending limits, put in place by the previuos Tory Chancellor, Ken Clarke. The Conservatives have gradually brought down the deficit, from £152bn to a projected debt of around £41bn this year ...

The only post-war Government to actually decrease spending on a year by year basis was Clem Attlee's 1945-1950 Labour Government ..

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Taffy on the wing » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:51 am

bobinho wrote:Maybe. But things need to be paid for. And as we ALL know, the left cannot be trusted yet with the purse strings.

Maybe they tried, but couldn't get past the permissions required from Brussels to do ANYTHING.
Let's see ...the Iraq war...paid for?....NOPE ............The war in Libya....paid for?......NOPE.........The Bailout of Banks after the financial crisis?..Nah!
Anything that actually HELPS people........OH NO WE CAN'T AFFORD THAT......WE'LL HAVE TO CUT SERVICES ELSEWHERE!......and on and on.

There is one livable Planet within many light years of space, we live on it, & we're destroying it at an ever accelerating pace........Insanity!
All in the name of Capitalist greed! You can't eat, drink or breathe money.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by quoonbeatz » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:04 am

Bin Ont Turf wrote:Yes because it is a great idea for children to be striking from school. :roll:
it absolutely is when the government is failing them. all power to the kids..

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:10 pm

Image
This user liked this post: Paul Waine

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by dsr » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:37 pm

Maybe if the children suspect that they are not being taken seriously because it was seen as a day off school, then they should do it again, during school holidays or at weekend. That will show the world how much they mean it. Maybe they'll get a bigger turnout because they won't have to miss school?

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:41 pm

This is what is called "Concern trolling".
dsr wrote:Maybe if the children suspect that they are not being taken seriously because it was seen as a day off school, then they should do it again, during school holidays or at weekend. That will show the world how much they mean it. Maybe they'll get a bigger turnout because they won't have to miss school?

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by dsr » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:55 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:This is what is called "Concern trolling".
This is what is called "adding nothing to the thread".

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by SmudgetheClaret » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:11 pm

There seems to be a bias view that Brexit will devastate the automotive industry but the barmy climate policies are causing much more
devastation...

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:15 pm

Maybe that’s the plan, to run down the automotive industry to help climate change.

Those crafty devils.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by WadingInDeeper » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:16 pm

dsr wrote:Maybe if the children suspect that they are not being taken seriously because it was seen as a day off school, then they should do it again, during school holidays or at weekend. That will show the world how much they mean it. Maybe they'll get a bigger turnout because they won't have to miss school?
They've already served one purpose and drawn attention to it. Next time they could step it up a level, organise a co-ordinated sit in overnight or over the weekend, force the staff/authority involvement because the school couldn't be left open with them aunattended.

What it really needs is for government, industry and the general public/consumers to all want to change, and to actually change, which would have a massive impact.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by dsr » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:21 pm

WadingInDeeper wrote:They've already served one purpose and drawn attention to it. Next time they could step it up a level, organise a co-ordinated sit in overnight or over the weekend, force the staff/authority involvement because the school couldn't be left open with them aunattended.

What it really needs is for government, industry and the general public/consumers to all want to change, and to actually change, which would have a massive impact.
I suspect the staff would be a lot less supportive of a mass sit-in than a mass walk-out! ;)

As has been said up the thread, this is one thing that (some of the) children can do something about. Refuse to use parents' gas guzzlers; walk to school or use public transport; refuse to buy food in plastic containers and especially refuse to throw it on the floor when they have done with it. I dare say the protestors didn't leave any litter behind them - can anyone confirm or deny? But there is no doubt that a lot of young people (and older ones, to be fair) do drop litter, and the environmentally conscious ones can make a concerted effort to stop them doing it.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:30 am

dsr wrote:This is what is called "adding nothing to the thread".

I think warning people not to waste their time on you and the bullshit concern trolling you post on climate related threads adds quite a bit to a thread. Certainly more than any of the disingenuous bullshit you post.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Greenmile » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:07 am

dsr wrote:I suspect the staff would be a lot less supportive of a mass sit-in than a mass walk-out! ;)

As has been said up the thread, this is one thing that (some of the) children can do something about. Refuse to use parents' gas guzzlers; walk to school or use public transport; refuse to buy food in plastic containers and especially refuse to throw it on the floor when they have done with it. I dare say the protestors didn't leave any litter behind them - can anyone confirm or deny? But there is no doubt that a lot of young people (and older ones, to be fair) do drop litter, and the environmentally conscious ones can make a concerted effort to stop them doing it.
Does dropping litter contribute to climate change?

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Hapag Lloyd » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:15 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think warning people not to waste their time on you and the bullshit concern trolling you post on climate related threads adds quite a bit to a thread. Certainly more than any of the disingenuous bullshit you post.
Oh the irony...

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:28 am

Hapag Lloyd wrote:Oh the irony...

I bet you can't explain your post.

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Re: Climate strike: schoolchildren walk out to protest

Post by pureclaret » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:06 pm

i think the parents of all the school children who did not attend due to ''going on strike to discuss climate change'' should be fined, and the money donated to charity's that support help with climate change.
My reasons for this are that whilst it is educational to meet at a focal point for climate change, it is also educational to got on a holiday with family and take in the local cultures.
( I once went to Ireland and went to the factory and learnt about the 9000 year lease on the land in Dublin st marys gate.) I also tried but failed to drink the place dry, which may have and possibly still does effect my standing in the community well I was very ******.
But to be serious if children are encouraged to take time off for a cause ( a very real important one) what happens if there are lots of Important other things that may be selectively of importance to other individuals who are/or have been fined

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