Electric Vehicle

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Rileybobs
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:29 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:21 pm
Hi Rileybobs, I first heard of vehicles powered by fuel cells in mid-90s. The idea then was that the gas would be natural gas. This was the days before fossil fuels were "wrong" because of carbon emissions... But, fuel cell technology proved expensive and especially much more expensive than petrol and diesel.

EVs, of course, are also expensive. The price of evs has come down as development efforts put into building them, including the battery technology.... including all the costs of mining the metals for the batteries. The biggest issues with evs are (1) how is all the electricity generated, (2) how is enough electricity generated to supply all the evs and all other uses of electricity and (3) how much does the electric grid need to be expanded to handle all this extra electricity. We are improving on (1) with coal generation near to ending and growth of wind and pv, but we will also need nat gas and nuclear for many years. We are nowhere near (2) and nowhere near (3). Much more generation capacity needed and hardly even making a small start on expanding grid capacity.

If an ev car were to cost £30,000 then the equivalent hydrogen fuel cell vehicle might cost £50,000 at the present time. And, hydrogen costs more than electricity, so the vehicle manufacturer's challenge is to sell a hydrogen fuel cell car that costs a lot more to buy than an ev and also costs a lot more to run. That's the big challenge.

Of course, people are looking at it and seeing if they can solve this challenge.

I've seen the NPL's hydrogen fuel cell test car on the roads around me. I got the chance to speak with the driver on one occasion. The NPL is testing technology, reliability etc etc. If those things check out, then the challenges are the cost of fuel cell and the costs of hydrogen.

Then there's the question of how we manufacture hydrogen. Grey, carbon emissions in the process; green, hydrogen from renewable sources and no carbon emissions; blue, I believe is no carbon emissions but not from renewable sources.

I also understand that hydrogen can leak, where petrol, diesel and natural gas wouldn't leak. So, not quite so easy to convert a petrol station to hydrogen re-fuelling. More importantly, while hydrogen is a possible replacement for nat gas in residential heating, it will require significant new investment in new pipelines. (Though, apparently up to 10% hydrogen could be substituted in nat gas supplies very quickly, for an immediate 10% reduction in carbon emissions).
Thanks Paul. So cost is the main factor. And seeing as cost is the main thing putting people off switching from petrol/Diesel engines to electric, obviously the jump to hydrogen would be too big. So do you see electric as a short-term stepping stone to hydrogen powered cars?

In terms of your two biggest issues with EV (2 & 3), huge investment will be required but I don’t see this being insurmountable. This industry and the infrastructure associated with it will change dramatically over the next 50 years I’m sure. It wouldn’t surprise me if driverless vehicles became the norm in that period of time.

Bosscat
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by Bosscat » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:29 pm

All this talk of Hydrogen power .... does nobody think of what happened 80 years ago..

https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/

Gordaleman
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by Gordaleman » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:35 pm

Bosscat wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:29 pm
All this talk of Hydrogen power .... does nobody think of what happened 80 years ago..

https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/
I think industry might have learned something since then Boss. Accidents happen occasionally, with petrol too. Remember Buncefield?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4517962.stm

IanMcL
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by IanMcL » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:43 pm

Shares for charging points
By Rebecca Henrys

A charging point for electric vehicles

Shares are being made available for an electric car charging point company which could bring more stations to the county.

In all £130,000 of investment shares are being offered in Charge My Street, which will see 100 new charging points set up in Cumbria and Lancashire.

The aim is for drivers to switch from diesel and petrol cars to electric vehicles as well as to make electric charge points available to rural communities.

Last year, one of the company’s charging points was set up in Alston.

Daniel Heery, director of Charge My Street, said: “This is a particular issue where people do not have their own driveways or are in rented accommodation, and in rural areas that may be a lower priority for commercial charge point providers.”

The minimum investment that can be made is £100.

The offer closes on March 31.

Sheedyclaret
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by Sheedyclaret » Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:55 pm

Do these vehicles just plug in to a normal socket with supplied cable if charging at home or do you need specialist charger point installation on your property??

Bosscat
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by Bosscat » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:21 pm

Sheedyclaret wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:55 pm
Do these vehicles just plug in to a normal socket with supplied cable if charging at home or do you need specialist charger point installation on your property??
https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/cha ... ar-at-home

No Ney Never
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by No Ney Never » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:38 pm

Gordaleman wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:26 pm
Paul Waine

"I also understand that hydrogen can leak, where petrol, diesel and natural gas wouldn't leak."

Where did you get that nonsense from? Hydrogen is a gas like any other and we already have forecourts dispensing it. Do you really think that that would be allowed if a gas as explosive as hydrogen was able to leak? Car tanks and forecourt pumps have very secure systems to make sure that there is no chance of that.
How safe is it in a road traffic accident, are people at risk of being blown up?

Paul Waine
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:35 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:29 pm
Thanks Paul. So cost is the main factor. And seeing as cost is the main thing putting people off switching from petrol/Diesel engines to electric, obviously the jump to hydrogen would be too big. So do you see electric as a short-term stepping stone to hydrogen powered cars?

In terms of your two biggest issues with EV (2 & 3), huge investment will be required but I don’t see this being insurmountable. This industry and the infrastructure associated with it will change dramatically over the next 50 years I’m sure. It wouldn’t surprise me if driverless vehicles became the norm in that period of time.
Recent, Nov-19, Autocar report:
Analysis: do hydrogen-powered cars have a future?
Can car makers tap the potential of hydrogen or will battery-electric reign supreme?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/indu ... ave-future

ecc
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by ecc » Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:00 pm

I appreciate the fact that not many people will be thinking of buying a bus to go to work but this development in public transport shows the interest (mistaken or otherwise) in hydrogen vehicles.

"The world’s first hydrogen-powered bus rapid transit (BRT) system has been deployed in the city of Pau in the south of France.
[The system started operating in Pau back in December.]

Dubbed Fébus, the new service will see eight 18-metre long Van Hool buses operate on a 6km dedicated line in the centre of Pau."

https://www.smartcitiesworld.net/news/n ... rance-4874

Paul Waine
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:02 pm

Gordaleman wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:26 pm
Paul Waine

"I also understand that hydrogen can leak, where petrol, diesel and natural gas wouldn't leak."

Where did you get that nonsense from? Hydrogen is a gas like any other and we already have forecourts dispensing it. Do you really think that that would be allowed if a gas as explosive as hydrogen was able to leak? Car tanks and forecourt pumps have very secure systems to make sure that there is no chance of that.
Hi Gordaleman, I got "that nonsense" from a report by The Institute of Engineering and Technology (IET): Transitioning to hydrogen. Assessing the engineering risks and uncertainties.

A couple of other studies referenced in this report:

16) Feasibility for hydrogen in the NTS
This is a technical feasibility study which is being delivered by the materials team at the Health & Safety Executive. The six-month study is evaluating the assets and materials on the National Transmission System (NTS) and highlighting any key concerns for hydrogen introduction at concentrations of 2, 20 and 100%. The study will cover aspects such as welding, coatings, leakage, hydrogen embrittlement mechanisms, hazardous areas and priority areas for further work. This study will be the foundation of the Health & Safety Executive’s work exploring the capability of the NTS to transport hydrogen.

17) Hydrogen Grid to Vehicle Project
Hydrogen-powered vehicles use fuel cells that must be supplied by high-purity hydrogen (Figure 22). Gridsupplied hydrogen is likely to collect contaminants which will need to be removed prior to use in fuel cells and so the objective of this three-year project is to identify what needs to be done. The project is funded by Ofgem’s National Innovation Award through Cadent and led by the National Physics Laboratory and comprises:
– Identification of impurities in the hydrogen supply – Technology and landscape study – Economic impact study – National trial/Gas Network Simulator

And, here is description of requirements for a hydrogen refueling station by Hydrogen Europe: https://hydrogeneurope.eu/refueling-stations

Gordaleman
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by Gordaleman » Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:56 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:02 pm
Hi Gordaleman, I got "that nonsense" from a report by The Institute of Engineering and Technology (IET): Transitioning to hydrogen. Assessing the engineering risks and uncertainties.

A couple of other studies referenced in this report:

16) Feasibility for hydrogen in the NTS
This is a technical feasibility study which is being delivered by the materials team at the Health & Safety Executive. The six-month study is evaluating the assets and materials on the National Transmission System (NTS) and highlighting any key concerns for hydrogen introduction at concentrations of 2, 20 and 100%. The study will cover aspects such as welding, coatings, leakage, hydrogen embrittlement mechanisms, hazardous areas and priority areas for further work. This study will be the foundation of the Health & Safety Executive’s work exploring the capability of the NTS to transport hydrogen.

17) Hydrogen Grid to Vehicle Project
Hydrogen-powered vehicles use fuel cells that must be supplied by high-purity hydrogen (Figure 22). Gridsupplied hydrogen is likely to collect contaminants which will need to be removed prior to use in fuel cells and so the objective of this three-year project is to identify what needs to be done. The project is funded by Ofgem’s National Innovation Award through Cadent and led by the National Physics Laboratory and comprises:
– Identification of impurities in the hydrogen supply – Technology and landscape study – Economic impact study – National trial/Gas Network Simulator

And, here is description of requirements for a hydrogen refueling station by Hydrogen Europe: https://hydrogeneurope.eu/refueling-stations

OK, I get that you are serious in your thoughts but your examples seem to be just studies, with no conclusions as yet. Your last piece just explains how the forecourt systems work. I don't see any mention of leaks.

All technologies have weak points, but it's now very rare to see a petrol tank explode, even though they do all the time in movies. The same would be true of hydrogen vehicles, which would probably be even more secure.
Last edited by Gordaleman on Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

IanMcL
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by IanMcL » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:03 am

Mobile Hydrogen bombs!
Japanese might have some nightmares!

jollyjack
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by jollyjack » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:12 pm


Gordaleman
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by Gordaleman » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:12 pm

No Ney Never wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:38 pm
How safe is it in a road traffic accident, are people at risk of being blown up?
Hydrogen tanks will be at least as safe as petrol tanks and they rarely blow up in accidents. Except in the movies of course.

If one did, it would be no worse than a petrol explosion.

No Ney Never
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by No Ney Never » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:43 pm

Bump

KateR
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Re: Electric Vehicle

Post by KateR » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:01 am

Hydrogen is for the future but the infrastructure is way behind EV's.

Production and transport of hydrogen is much more tricky than LPG/Petrol, building stations for H2 production are so much more costly today than putting in a EV charging point.

H2 is typically produced from main hydrocarbon facilities with electrolysis quickly catching up, the costs to producing H2 via electrolysis makes little sense without carbon credits

Hydrogen people want is green hydrogen, today there is blue/gray and green hydrogen used for different things, the landscape is about to change in a big way with W2H2 (waste to hydrogen) facilities that have multiple benefits, they need to be fully proven and rolled out, this will take time. Hence hydrogen is way behind electric but will in my opinion overtake and I see EV's as a convenient stepping stone for the next decade or so.

KateR
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Re: Hydrogen Vs Electric Vehicle

Post by KateR » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:32 pm

in order to try and take out one Elec Vehicle threads from an old one I have renamed it as Hydrogen versus EV, don't expect it to last long but a few have commented on hydrogen, so thought I would try to change that discussion to here for anyone interested. Clearly trying to change the thread title didn't work, ohhh well.

Here is a picture of a typical H2 fueling station with a few comments:

These unmanned gas stations are suitable for filling 350 and 700 bar.
For both private and business cars, buses, taxis and recently trucks.
Stations since 2014, this one in Belgium
The company that operates and maintains these also provide guided tours and support new customers, which is a clear indication of how far behind they are. They did not build or own the stations, but the company that did is investing a lot globally for more to come
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H2 fueling.jpg
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