I just don't understand the argument for electric cars. Just how far from home will people without drives (i.e. terraced streets.) have to travel on foot to collect their car from a charging point? And where are all these charging points going to be put? It will be lovely on a winters morning when there's been snow, watching everybody trudge off to wherever their car is charging. What, maybe half a mile away? That'll be fun. Not.

We should be going down the hydrogen route. The infrastructure to service it is already in place. All you have to do is fill up your car in the same way as a petrol car, at the local garage. No need to wait for it to charge either. There are already some garages set up for hydrogen, plus bus companies and train companies are already going down the hydrogen route.

Environmentally it's good too. No waste producs from the exhaust, just water. It makes far more sense than electric vehicles.

I have 2 cars, a fiat panda for town and Diesel grand Picasso for long journeys. Vehicles were second hand and cost less than £6k for both. Tax is £23 a month combined and I put about £130 a month fuel in them. MOT, servicing and maintenance for both hasn’t been more than £700 a year (yet!) and I make sure they get everything they need. Multi car insurance is £38 a month. I’ve run them for 4 years so far (usually expect 3 years) and will replace with something similar when things start going wrong. I don’t expect more than £1k back when that time comes.

Long winded way of saying my motoring costs in absolute total for 2 cars is about £350 A month. I couldn’t lease 2 batteries for that, never mind finance 2 cars....etc. I like the idea of electric but won’t go that way until the costs come down significantly (or I’m forced). Yes I’m tight, but as long as I get from a to b, couldn’t care less.

I would love one of these as a fun second vehicle
https://carver.earth/en/ but the 50km range puts me off, along with the issue of how to get it back home.

Was also looking at the Toyota iRoad https://www.toyota-europe.com/world-of- ... ars/i-road which is very similar but as it's been in concept stage since 2013 I don't hold out much hope of it being available soon

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:09 pm

I just don't understand the argument for electric cars. Just how far from home will people without drives (i.e. terraced streets.) have to travel on foot to collect their car from a charging point? And where are all these charging points going to be put? It will be lovely on a winters morning when there's been snow, watching everybody trudge off to wherever their car is charging. What, maybe half a mile away? That'll be fun. Not.

We should be going down the hydrogen route. The infrastructure to service it is already in place. All you have to do is fill up your car in the same way as a petrol car, at the local garage. No need to wait for it to charge either. There are already some garages set up for hydrogen, plus bus companies and train companies are already going down the hydrogen route.

Environmentally it's good too. No waste producs from the exhaust, just water. It makes far more sense than electric vehicles.

Except there is no real development.

Im looking at 1 of these for my company car renewal at the end of the year, 0 tax makes me around £300 better off plus electric charging at work.

https://www.skoda.co.uk/discover/electr ... 7-23199d07

IanMcL wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:20 pm

Except there is no real development.

That might be true. The question is why?

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:09 pm

We should be going down the hydrogen route. The infrastructure to service it is already in place. All you have to do is fill up your car in the same way as a petrol car, at the local garage. No need to wait for it to charge either. There are already some garages set up for hydrogen, plus bus companies and train companies are already going down the hydrogen route.

Environmentally it's good too. No waste producs from the exhaust, just water. It makes far more sense than electric vehicles.

Hmmmm GD I wonder how many garages in the local area are set up for Hydrogen?????

There are probably more local charging points in Barrowford than Hydrogen garages in East Lancashire

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:09 pm

I just don't understand the argument for electric cars. Just how far from home will people without drives (i.e. terraced streets.) have to travel on foot to collect their car from a charging point? And where are all these charging points going to be put? It will be lovely on a winters morning when there's been snow, watching everybody trudge off to wherever their car is charging. What, maybe half a mile away? That'll be fun. Not.

We should be going down the hydrogen route. The infrastructure to service it is already in place. All you have to do is fill up your car in the same way as a petrol car, at the local garage. No need to wait for it to charge either. There are already some garages set up for hydrogen, plus bus companies and train companies are already going down the hydrogen route.

Environmentally it's good too. No waste producs from the exhaust, just water. It makes far more sense than electric vehicles.

At some point there will be wireless charging - similar to how you can charge your mobile phones on a charging pad. Not to mention charging points on lamp posts etc. Obviously the infrastructure isn’t there yet but it doesn’t mean it never will be.

Bosscat wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:04 pm

Hmmmm GD I wonder how many garages in the local area are set up for Hydrogen?????

There are probably more local charging points in Barrowford than Hydrogen garages in East Lancashire

That's not my point Boss. If as much effort had been put into hydrogen as it has for electric, every garage would have the necessary pumps.

It's crazy that we have the places to put hydrogen but instead, we are creating a whole new infrastructure, mostly away from people's homes. Plus of course, with hydrogen, there's no waiting for hours before you can drive your car again. They are also more environmentally friendly.

https://www.lep.co.uk/lifestyle/cars/hy ... un-1386285

Tesla’s Elon Musk has dismissed FCEVs as “incredibly dumb” but, as a man who owns a battery electric car company, that’s hardly surprising.

He argues producing hydrogen fuel is less efficient that producing electricity for battery EVs. The counter argument is that hydrogen can be produced in a zero-emissions manner and offers the convenience of quicker fuelling and longer range than lithium-ion powered EVs.

'There is currently only one FCEV model on sale in the UK - the Hyundai Nexo - and it costs £65,995. Toyota's Mirai was a pioneer in FCEV and a new version of that is due in 2020 but it will cost a similar price. Other brands are investigating FCEVs but there are no confirmed new models for the UK yet'

Also cost of producing hydrogen is, evidently expensive.

CanuckClaret wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:46 pm

Just playing devil's advocate here but what if.... https://thedriven.io/2020/02/24/what-if ... trol-cars/

Problem with that is that it's so obviously biased that you can't tell what's really true and what's hyperbole. for example, the idea that fossil fuels are finite so stop using oil and start using electricity which is made by coal. For example again, the idea that electricity is more efficient because cars use 70-80% of maximum power, without taking any account of the loss of efficieny in producing the lectricity and transporting it all over the country. For example, the idea that petrol needs vast infrastructure while electric car infrastructure is already in place.

IanMcL wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:31 pm

'There is currently only one FCEV model on sale in the UK - the Hyundai Nexo - and it costs £65,995. Toyota's Mirai was a pioneer in FCEV and a new version of that is due in 2020 but it will cost a similar price. Other brands are investigating FCEVs but there are no confirmed new models for the UK yet'

Also cost of producing hydrogen is, evidently expensive.

Actually, hydrogen can now be produced a lot more cheaply and the overall production and use is a lot more environmentally friendly.

I think you're all missing my point though. Hydrogen doesn't need new infrastructure. We already have petrol stations that can easily adapt to supply hydrogen as well. Fill up and go, just like petrol. No long delays to recharge. (If you can find a charging point that's free.)

As for available cars, that's because governments chose electric. Manufacturers would be happy to embrace hydrogen if they had the market. We already have hydrogen police cars, and buses in the UK. We are developing trains as well.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 09326.html

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2020 ... ate-change

Isn’t the issue that making hydrogen emits three times as much carbon dioxide as electric batteries? Its all to do with how much carbon is in the source material. New technology may in the future reduce this (e.g.using methane) but for now electric cars are kinder to the planet.

Anyway, off to bed now before taking the Tesla on its longest drive yet up to Newcastle.

But first, a follow on from my post earlier this month about Octopus energy and cheap 5p nighttime EV tariffs. Apparently some areas of the country can only get a Itron smart meter rather than a Landis and Gyr one. Even though both are 2nd generation only the latter can operate on a flexible tariff. So my £3,000 fuel bill which has reduced to £500 with the Tesla will have to stay at £500 rather than dropping to £200 with nighttime charging. One to be mindful of.

Four months in though, the cars cool (albeit the physical build is a bit cheap). And the 4WD may come in useful if the snow hits on the way back tomorrow.

Enjoy your super charging breaks!

dsr wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:10 pm

Problem with that is that it's so obviously biased that you can't tell what's really true and what's hyperbole. for example, the idea that fossil fuels are finite so stop using oil and start using electricity which is made by coal. For example again, the idea that electricity is more efficient because cars use 70-80% of maximum power, without taking any account of the loss of efficieny in producing the lectricity and transporting it all over the country. For example, the idea that petrol needs vast infrastructure while electric car infrastructure is already in place.

I'd agree it's not the best article. One thing to note though is that we don't use coal for producing electricity. We do however use gas, although the majority of electricity production is from renewable sources now.

300 mile return trip done, no need for Supercharging en-route, just a top up free of charge while parking in Eldon Gardens Car Park next to the ground (£9 parking though). Range anxiety not a problem. 60 miles left having just plugged in at home. Very pleased with that.

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:09 pm

I just don't understand the argument for electric cars. Just how far from home will people without drives (i.e. terraced streets.) have to travel on foot to collect their car from a charging point? And where are all these charging points going to be put? It will be lovely on a winters morning when there's been snow, watching everybody trudge off to wherever their car is charging. What, maybe half a mile away? That'll be fun. Not.

We should be going down the hydrogen route. The infrastructure to service it is already in place. All you have to do is fill up your car in the same way as a petrol car, at the local garage. No need to wait for it to charge either. There are already some garages set up for hydrogen, plus bus companies and train companies are already going down the hydrogen route.

Environmentally it's good too. No waste producs from the exhaust, just water. It makes far more sense than electric vehicles.

Hi Gordalman, when we played Chelsea I spotted an ev charging via a device fitted into street side lamppost. It may be that all the terraced streets on north east lancs will have street side chargers installed. Maybe the technology will connect to residential leccy and could allow any user to buy their charge? Of course, that's always assuming that there will be enough electricity to support all the evs.

Hydrogen? It's a great solution, other than the (currently) higher cost of hydrogen fuel cells. Maybe that cost will also come down, as cost of wind turbines and pv panels has massively reduced.

The National Physical Laboratory (NPL) has been testing hydrogen fuel cell vehicle since 2017.

https://www.npl.co.uk/national-challeng ... t/hydrogen

Reducing emissions without compromising performance

"The application of hydrogen technologies and their potential to help address the challenges of reducing greenhouse gas emissions is well recognised. In 2017, NPL produced an Energy Transition Report which provided an overview of six high priority measurement challenges to be overcome in the development of hydrogen-based solutions for decarbonisation within the energy sector.

"Since the report was published, NPL has maintained its leadership position in hydrogen metrology and is recognised for global expertise in analysis and research. We work with industry, government and regulators as we strive to deliver solutions which overcome the measurement challenges associated with hydrogen-based technologies."

dsr wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:10 pm

Problem with that is that it's so obviously biased that you can't tell what's really true and what's hyperbole. for example, the idea that fossil fuels are finite so stop using oil and start using electricity which is made by coal. For example again, the idea that electricity is more efficient because cars use 70-80% of maximum power, without taking any account of the loss of efficieny in producing the lectricity and transporting it all over the country. For example, the idea that petrol needs vast infrastructure while electric car infrastructure is already in place.

Hi dsr, would it surprise you if I said that "electric car infrastructure" is not "already in place." As the number of evs increases, the amount of electricity generation will need to be massively increased and, in addition, the electricity transmission systems and local distribution systems will both need enormous new investment. And, on top of this, if we cut out nat gas boilers for residential heating and moving heating to electricity the scale of new investment grows further.

To make the possibilities a little more interesting, there is talk of mixing up to 10% hydrogen with the nat gas supply, so that this cuts 10% of nat gas consumption - and the associated carbon emissions. But, this will only work if hydrogen is produced using renewable elec. And, will only work if we are happy to pay the extra costs.

Paul Waine wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:04 pm

Hi Gordalman, when we played Chelsea I spotted an ev charging via a device fitted into street side lamppost. It may be that all the terraced streets on north east lancs will have street side chargers installed. Maybe the technology will connect to residential leccy and could allow any user to buy their charge? Of course, that's always assuming that there will be enough electricity to support all the evs.

Hydrogen? It's a great solution, other than the (currently) higher cost of hydrogen fuel cells. Maybe that cost will also come down, as cost of wind turbines and pv panels has massively reduced.

The National Physical Laboratory (NPL) has been testing hydrogen fuel cell vehicle since 2017.

https://www.npl.co.uk/national-challeng ... t/hydrogen

Reducing emissions without compromising performance

"The application of hydrogen technologies and their potential to help address the challenges of reducing greenhouse gas emissions is well recognised. In 2017, NPL produced an Energy Transition Report which provided an overview of six high priority measurement challenges to be overcome in the development of hydrogen-based solutions for decarbonisation within the energy sector.

"Since the report was published, NPL has maintained its leadership position in hydrogen metrology and is recognised for global expertise in analysis and research. We work with industry, government and regulators as we strive to deliver solutions which overcome the measurement challenges associated with hydrogen-based technologies."

Interesting and informative response mate. I still think that everyone is missing my point though.

You say "Hi Gordalman, when we played Chelsea I spotted an ev charging via a device fitted into street side lamppost. It may be that all the terraced streets on north east lancs will have street side chargers installed." My point is how much would all that new infrastructure cost? It could run into billions if every house or street lamp was coverted. On top of that, what about the greenhouse gases produced during it's manufacture?

With hydrogen, we just use the existing infrastructure, a petrol station forecourt, and just change the pumps to deliver hydrogen. (They are changed quite often anyway and they are paid for by the fuel companies, not the taxpayer.) No waitinng for your vehicle to charge, just fill and drive as we do with petrol.

It seems so obviously the route to take. What an I missing? All it needs is for the government to get on board and car makers would soon follow as they have with electric. We already have police cars using hydrogen. We have hydrogen buses and trains as well. It's the future and we're missing the boat on it.

The person who fitted my Podpoint told me about the idea of fitting charging points into the kerb framework along streets where the houses had no drives and that the lamppost chargers were beginning to be fitted up and down the south east to begin with. This is from last September time.

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:53 pm

Interesting and informative response mate. I still think that everyone is missing my point though.

My point is how much would all that new infrastructure cost? It could run into billions if every house or street lamp was coverted. On top of that, what about the greenhouse gases produced during it's manufacture?

With hydrogen, we just use the existing infrastructure, a petrol station forecourt, and just change the pumps to deliver hydrogen. (They are changed quite often anyway and they are paid for by the fuel companies, not the taxpayer.) No waitinng for your vehicle to charge, just fill and drive as we do with petrol.

It seems so obviously the route to take. What an I missing? All it needs is for the government to get on board and car makers would soon follow as they have with electric. We already have police cars using hydrogen. We have hydrogen buses and trains as well. It's the future and we're missing the boat on it.

You might find this interesting - though it's more about large trucks (in US) than personal transport.

Advanced Clean Tech News: https://www.act-news.com/news/hydrogen- ... -vehicles/

Elsewhere there are discussions about using ammonia to replace bunkers in shipping fleets. (IMO 2020 - which cut the sulphur limits - isn't the end of environmental changes for shipping)

Quick count - there are 6 lamp posts on my street, and something like 40 houses. More ideas needed.

dsr wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:23 pm

Quick count - there are 6 lamp posts on my street, and something like 40 houses. More ideas needed.

Charging pads in the street.

Agreed. The supply is there. It is just like wiring the houses in a street. Probably need a code, if there are personal supplies I.e. pad outside 27 meters on 27 if 29 plugs in..won't ne active, without code.

I’m just waiting for the mile long tail backs at motorway service stations full of cars waiting ages to get a charge. Also, once the EV craze gets into full swing, expect manufacturers to change the plugs to non obtainable ones, so you have to use approved charging points. Once this happens, watch the cost of a charge soar. The government cannot afford to lose the billions in fuel duty they currently rely on. Yes peeps, it’s cheap motoring at the moment, to lure people in, in but in time it will be at least as expensive as ICE.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:24 pm

Charging pads in the street.

My street is very narrow and parking is only allowed on one side.

Next idea?

Why build a whole new infrastructure when we already have one in place, the garage forecourt? Just use hydrogen instead of petrol or electricity. Simples.

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:25 pm

My street is very narrow and parking is only allowed on one side.

Next idea?

Not sure what difference that makes. Put the charging pads on the side where the cars park. It’s no different to a street with parking to each side.

Yes peeps, it’s cheap motoring at the moment, to lure people in, in but in time it will be at least as expensive as ICE.
[/quote]

With battery lease, there’s nothing cheap about it (unless you travel well above average mileage). The cost of the battery lease is more than the fuel I put in a month. I’d need to be doing 2k miles a month for it to be close to the costs I have now. I want an electric car but can’t justify the outlay at the moment.

I might be wrong? Anyone with a realistic electric car <£25k fancy running through the costs honestly.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:27 pm

Not sure what difference that makes. Put the charging pads on the side where the cars park. It’s no different to a street with parking to each side.

The difference is that there's never enough room for everyone to park. First come first served ? Last home from work, hard luck every day?

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:14 pm

The difference is that there's never enough room for everyone to park. First come first served ? Last home from work, hard luck every day?

Well where do you park now when there isn't enough room on your street?

Stanbill05 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:04 pm

Yes peeps, it’s cheap motoring at the moment, to lure people in, in but in time it will be at least as expensive as ICE.

With battery lease, there’s nothing cheap about it (unless you travel well above average mileage). The cost of the battery lease is more than the fuel I put in a month. I’d need to be doing 2k miles a month for it to be close to the costs I have now. I want an electric car but can’t justify the outlay at the moment.

I might be wrong? Anyone with a realistic electric car <£25k fancy running through the costs honestly.

Electric cars, see this thread from 2018
viewtopic.php?style=2&f=2&t=34040&p=862 ... af#p862247

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:27 pm

Well where do you park now when there isn't enough room on your street?

Irrelevant, you're all missing the point. Why build expensive new infrasrtucture when hydrogen cars don't need it? They just use current garage forecourts. And you don't have to wait hours before you can drive again. It's instant, like petrol.

Have you any idea just how much batteries for electic cars cost to replace? Have you any idea how much manufacturing those batteries hurts the environment?

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:42 pm

Irrelevant, you're all missing the point. Why build expensive new infrasrtucture when hydrogen cars don't need it? They just use current garage forecourts. And you don't have to wait hours before you can drive again. It's instant, like petrol.

Have you any idea just how much batteries for electic cars cost to replace? Have you any idea how much manufacturing those batteries hurts the environment?

No. I don’t know anything about hydrogen cars - I was responding to your point about infrastructure and on-street charging.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:34 pm

No. I don’t know anything about hydrogen cars - I was responding to your point about infrastructure and on-street charging.

Then read my earlier post below.

I just don't understand the argument for electric cars. Just how far from home will people without drives (i.e. terraced streets.) have to travel on foot to collect their car from a charging point? And where are all these charging points going to be put? It will be lovely on a winters morning when there's been snow, watching everybody trudge off to wherever their car is charging. What, maybe half a mile away? That'll be fun. Not.

We should be going down the hydrogen route. The infrastructure to service it is already in place. All you have to do is fill up your car in the same way as a petrol car, at the local garage. No need to wait for it to charge either. There are already some garages set up for hydrogen, plus bus companies and train companies are already going down the hydrogen route.

Environmentally it's good too. No waste producs from the exhaust, just water. It makes far more sense than electric vehicles.

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:47 pm

Then read my earlier post below.

I just don't understand the argument for electric cars. Just how far from home will people without drives (i.e. terraced streets.) have to travel on foot to collect their car from a charging point? And where are all these charging points going to be put? It will be lovely on a winters morning when there's been snow, watching everybody trudge off to wherever their car is charging. What, maybe half a mile away? That'll be fun. Not.

We should be going down the hydrogen route. The infrastructure to service it is already in place. All you have to do is fill up your car in the same way as a petrol car, at the local garage. No need to wait for it to charge either. There are already some garages set up for hydrogen, plus bus companies and train companies are already going down the hydrogen route.

Environmentally it's good too. No waste producs from the exhaust, just water. It makes far more sense than electric vehicles.

Sounds great but I really just don’t know enough about it and I presume there’s a reason why that technology is lagging behind electric in terms of mass produced consumer vehicles.

Like I said before, I was responding to your point about people without driveways not being able to charge their cars. My point is that charging pads could be laid in the road surface allowing car charging for all on street parking.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Sounds great but I really just don’t know enough about it and I presume there’s a reason why that technology is lagging behind electric in terms of mass produced consumer vehicles.

Like I said before, I was responding to your point about people without driveways not being able to charge their cars. My point is that charging pads could be laid in the road surface allowing car charging for all on street parking.

How much do you think all that infrastructure would cost? I'll guarantee it would run into billions of pounds, money much needed elsewhere, especially if Covid-19 really gets a hold here. (I don't think it will by the way.) Hydrogen doesn't need new infrastructure and we already have police cars, buses and trains using it. So the technology is already available.

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:12 pm

How much do you think all that infrastructure would cost? I'll guarantee it would run into billions of pounds, money much needed elsewhere, especially if Covid-19 really gets a hold here. (I don't think it will by the way.) Hydrogen doesn't need new infrastructure and we already have police cars, buses and trains using it. So the technology is already available.

It would cost a lot, I’m sure. But times change, technology evolves. To be honest I think you’re arguing with the wrong person. If hydrogen powered cars are cleaner, more efficient and cheaper then happy days. I was just pointing out that there are solutions to the problems that you’ve posed regarding charging electric cars on terraced streets. You brought up hydrogen cars, not me.

A “proper” solution would be induction loop tech built into the main road system - but we can’t even sort pot holes out so I can’t imagine it taking off

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:23 pm

It would cost a lot, I’m sure. But times change, technology evolves. To be honest I think you’re arguing with the wrong person. If hydrogen powered cars are cleaner, more efficient and cheaper then happy days. I was just pointing out that there are solutions to the problems that you’ve posed regarding charging electric cars on terraced streets. You brought up hydrogen cars, not me.

Arguing? Who's arguing? I just put the point forward into the discussion and hoped people might realise the sense of it.

So many downsides to electricity. e.g. What happens if your battery needs a charging and a family emergency comes up? Or you run out of milk and the shop is more than 100 yds away? (Joke.) So many instances where you might need your car in a hurry.

None of that with Hydrogen.

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:31 pm

Arguing? Who's arguing? I just put the point forward into the discussion and hoped people might realise the sense of it.

I didn’t use the word arguing in a negative way, substitute it for debating if you’d prefer. I’m just saying that there are solutions to all of the problems people pose with electric vehicles. You said that people would have to walk long distances to charge their car - that doesn’t have to be the case as cars could be charged wirelessly.

Obviously there will need to be major investment in infrastructure but that will happen. Go back 100 years and cars were only just becoming readily available. What will our roads be like in 100 years time?!

If you feel that hydrogen powered cars are a better alternative then I am in no position to disagree as I know next to nothing about the technology. I am curious as to why the car manufacturers aren’t looking at this instead of electric cars?

"I am curious as to why the car manufacturers aren’t looking at this instead of electric cars?"

What? We already have police cars, buses and trains.

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl ... rbon-goal/

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:42 pm

"I am curious as to why the car manufacturers aren’t looking at this instead of electric cars?"

What? We already have police cars, buses and trains.

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl ... rbon-goal/

I mean car manufacturers for the mass production market. Why aren’t VW, Nissan, Toyota, BMW etc putting their efforts into hydrogen powered cars for mainstream production if it’s such a better alternative to electric? Genuine question.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:48 pm

I mean car manufacturers for the mass production market. Why aren’t VW, Nissan, Toyota, BMW etc putting their efforts into hydrogen powered cars for mainstream production if it’s such a better alternative to electric? Genuine question.

They obviouly are doing but the technology is clearly a bit behind electric cars. The Met police can't drive cars that don't exist.

Bedtime.

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:01 pm

They obviouly are doing but the technology is clearly a bit behind electric cars. The Met police can't drive cars that don't exist.

Bedtime.

I didn’t say they don’t exist. Why are you getting so touchy? I’m genuinely interested to know why this technology isn’t being pushed if it’s a much better alternative to electric? If public service vehicles are using it then surely the technology can’t be much less advanced than electric? Yet almost every car manufacturer has, or is developing electric models and almost every new house will be built with an electric vehicle charging point.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:07 pm

I didn’t say they don’t exist. Why are you getting so touchy? I’m genuinely interested to know why this technology isn’t being pushed if it’s a much better alternative to electric? If public service vehicles are using it then surely the technology can’t be much less advanced than electric? Yet almost every car manufacturer has, or is developing electric models and almost every new house will be built with an electric vehicle charging point.

Really, how many times do I need to tell you? The technology is a bit behind electric, that's all but we are going to waste £ Billions to set up what is effectively obsolete technology for electric cars.

Meh. I'll get an EV next. Just bought a 3.0 V6 Turbo SUV.

I'll probably cry myself to sleep dreaming of days getting 20mpg -**** it, this is for your claret-on-a-trex and Greta Thunderbird!

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:12 pm

Really, how many times do I need to tell you? The technology is a bit behind electric, that's all but we are going to waste £ Billions to set up what is effectively obsolete technology for electric cars.

You’re asking the same question as me. If electric is obsolete technology then why are all of the car manufacturers and the government wasting money on this? They are better informed than you and I. How far behind electric can hydrogen be if police cars and buses are using it?

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:48 pm

I mean car manufacturers for the mass production market. Why aren’t VW, Nissan, Toyota, BMW etc putting their efforts into hydrogen powered cars for mainstream production if it’s such a better alternative to electric? Genuine question.

Hi Rileybobs, I first heard of vehicles powered by fuel cells in mid-90s. The idea then was that the gas would be natural gas. This was the days before fossil fuels were "wrong" because of carbon emissions... But, fuel cell technology proved expensive and especially much more expensive than petrol and diesel.

EVs, of course, are also expensive. The price of evs has come down as development efforts put into building them, including the battery technology.... including all the costs of mining the metals for the batteries. The biggest issues with evs are (1) how is all the electricity generated, (2) how is enough electricity generated to supply all the evs and all other uses of electricity and (3) how much does the electric grid need to be expanded to handle all this extra electricity. We are improving on (1) with coal generation near to ending and growth of wind and pv, but we will also need nat gas and nuclear for many years. We are nowhere near (2) and nowhere near (3). Much more generation capacity needed and hardly even making a small start on expanding grid capacity.

If an ev car were to cost £30,000 then the equivalent hydrogen fuel cell vehicle might cost £50,000 at the present time. And, hydrogen costs more than electricity, so the vehicle manufacturer's challenge is to sell a hydrogen fuel cell car that costs a lot more to buy than an ev and also costs a lot more to run. That's the big challenge.

Of course, people are looking at it and seeing if they can solve this challenge.

I've seen the NPL's hydrogen fuel cell test car on the roads around me. I got the chance to speak with the driver on one occasion. The NPL is testing technology, reliability etc etc. If those things check out, then the challenges are the cost of fuel cell and the costs of hydrogen.

Then there's the question of how we manufacture hydrogen. Grey, carbon emissions in the process; green, hydrogen from renewable sources and no carbon emissions; blue, I believe is no carbon emissions but not from renewable sources.

I also understand that hydrogen can leak, where petrol, diesel and natural gas wouldn't leak. So, not quite so easy to convert a petrol station to hydrogen re-fuelling. More importantly, while hydrogen is a possible replacement for nat gas in residential heating, it will require significant new investment in new pipelines. (Though, apparently up to 10% hydrogen could be substituted in nat gas supplies very quickly, for an immediate 10% reduction in carbon emissions).

tarkys_ears wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:14 pm

Meh. I'll get an EV next. Just bought a 3.0 V6 Turbo SUV.

I'll probably cry myself to sleep dreaming of days getting 20mpg -**** it, this is for your claret-on-a-trex and Greta Thunderbird!

I run a Turbo V6 tarkys_ears and it does a damned sight more than 20mpg unless I put my foot down (which obviously I don't )

Paul Waine

"I also understand that hydrogen can leak, where petrol, diesel and natural gas wouldn't leak."

Where did you get that nonsense from? Hydrogen is a gas like any other and we already have forecourts dispensing it. Do you really think that that would be allowed if a gas as explosive as hydrogen was able to leak? Car tanks and forecourt pumps have very secure systems to make sure that there is no chance of that.