Labour MPs To Split From Party?

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:06 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:The main reason I'm against renationalisation is the cost. We wasted a fortune in the selling price, we'd waste another fortune on buying them back. That alone wouldn't solve the problems, the investment needed on top to get them to measure up to their counterparts on the continent would be huge. I'm not certain, but I always thought a lot of them ran at a loss. I wouldn't care if we could break even, but running at a loss would be unacceptable.

I agree small businesses are important, I singled out big business because the larger the business the larger the benefit could be.

I'm not bothered about the Union having a voice in politics, that's fine, but they want the power. To me that's the tail wagging the dog. There is no common ground between the McCluskeys of this world and the CBI, they would forever be at each others throats. Any party that causes division within the country is doomed to failure from the day it takes office, it's just a matter of time.
You are never going to please everybody, but it has to be fair, and seen to be fair for people to give it a chance.

Cost is highlighted by the Tories now as a reason for not renationalising (all other reasons for not doing so have been found wanting), however a government will ultimately set the terms by which it takes place, and so can make it affordable. With the railways the franchises are time limited. I'm all for a government balancing its books - especially on operating expenditures - but within that if a particular area 'loses' money, as long as there is money to cover it from elsewhere then that needn't be a problem. It might be desirable for them to subsidise train travel, for example (especially if they want to get people out of cars and onto trains).

The Germans have very good industrial relations. They have worker representatives on boards - both a Theresa May and Labour Party idea. Binding arbitration could help too. It just takes a change in rules that alters culture and attitude.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:24 pm

Joan Ryan Enfield North MP has joined the Independent Group,taking the total to 8 all ex-Labour MP'S thus far,to be considered a genuine centrist party they will need MP'S from other parties to jump ship.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:40 pm

tiger76 wrote:Joan Ryan Enfield North MP has joined the Independent Group,taking the total to 8 all ex-Labour MP'S thus far,to be considered a genuine centrist party they will need MP'S from other parties to jump ship.

Centralist Party ? What with chucha whats his face in it you must be joking.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:45 pm

The more fragmentation the better. In the short term we'll be even less democratic than we currently are, but it makes it much more likely that we get electoral reform.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:50 pm

South West Claret. wrote:Centralist Party ? What with chucha whats his face in it you must be joking.

We'll have to wait and see how this faction develops,just because a good number of the electorate are disillusioned by mainstream parties doesn't automatically equate to them voting for a breakaway group,especially if they are perceived as a Labour offshoot,apart from Umunna the rest are a pretty unknown bunch even to me,and i generally keep abreast of current affairs.

In my opinion they are more likely to damage the Lib Dem vote rather than the big two,who both have a high ceiling that their vote is unlikely to fall below.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:49 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Cost is highlighted by the Tories now as a reason for not renationalising (all other reasons for not doing so have been found wanting), however a government will ultimately set the terms by which it takes place, and so can make it affordable. With the railways the franchises are time limited. I'm all for a government balancing its books - especially on operating expenditures - but within that if a particular area 'loses' money, as long as there is money to cover it from elsewhere then that needn't be a problem. It might be desirable for them to subsidise train travel, for example (especially if they want to get people out of cars and onto trains).

The Germans have very good industrial relations. They have worker representatives on boards - both a Theresa May and Labour Party idea. Binding arbitration could help too. It just takes a change in rules that alters culture and attitude.

Nothing wrong with any of that and having worker representation on boards is a good idea, but the representation has to be enlightened. Sounds simple, but I don't think the old hard left of the the Labour Party or Union movement are particularly enlightened. It's hard to compare German employment relationships to our own, based on historical events, but still a good idea.

PutTheWheelieBinsOut · Post by **PutTheWheelieBinsOut** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:50 am

Snow White & the 7 dwarfs, I think i'm correct are all in favour of a 'peoples vote' . However they are not so keen to let the people vote in their own constituency's in a bi-election to ensure they still have the confidence of the people they represent.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:37 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:The more fragmentation the better. In the short term we'll be even less democratic than we currently are, but it makes it much more likely that we get electoral reform.

You will end up with Tommy Robinson MP, if that's what you want.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:01 am

AndyClaret wrote:You will end up with Tommy Robinson MP, if that's what you want.

If you're a believer in PR, then that's what you will inevitably end up with ..... On a pure share of the national vote basis, UKIP should have had 80 or so MP's after the 2015 General Election, and the SNP around 25 ...

As it was, the DUP in Northern Ireland ended up with 8 MP's for their 184,260 votes , whereas UKIP got 1 MP for 3,881,099 votes ....

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:09 am

AndyClaret wrote:You will end up with Tommy Robinson MP, if that's what you want.

So? At least it'll be democratically chosen, and not through this pathetic excuse of a system we have now.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:43 am

Once people like Robinson become MPs their shortcomings are thrust into the light. Like what happened to Burnley’s BNP councillors, but on a national stage.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:02 am

See Derek Hatton is back in.

Its almost like this Labour party hasn't learnt a single lesson from the past.

Surely not the case with Jeremy Corbyn in charge?

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:21 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:See Derek Hatton is back in. Its almost like this Labour party hasn't learnt a single lesson from the past.
Surely not the case with Jeremy Corbyn in charge?

It's almost as if he's ringing the Editors of the Mail, Express, & Telegraph and asking, " What can I do today to give you some good anti-Labour headlines, chaps ? " ...... tomorrow, he'll probably call for Shamina Begum, to have her British citizenship restored, and be given a three bed luxury flat in Bayswater with access to a pool, round the clock protection and 24 hour porterage !

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:25 am

Clarets4me wrote:If you're a believer in PR, then that's what you will inevitably end up with ..... On a pure share of the national vote basis, UKIP should have had 80 or so MP's after the 2015 General Election, and the SNP around 25 ...

As it was, the DUP in Northern Ireland ended up with 8 MP's for their 184,260 votes , whereas UKIP got 1 MP for 3,881,099 votes ....

This explained it very well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9rGX91rq5I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

android · Post by **android** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:34 am

Imploding Turtle wrote: Labour, a racist party. The party opf equality is a racist party.

Oh god. The stupid. It burns.

Even you, IT, cannot be deemed the sole arbiter of whether Jews are deemed to be a race of people.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:40 am

android wrote:Even you, IT, cannot be deemed the sole arbiter of whether Jews are deemed to be a race of people.

Ah. It's that tired old bullshit about hating Jews again.

android · Post by **android** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:43 am

I do not like racism so it is not tired old bs to me.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:46 am

Problem Lab have is that they don't regard some of the things they say are anti-semitic.

The fact that everybody else does is completely irrelevant to them.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:55 am

tiger76 wrote:................,apart from Umunna the rest are a pretty unknown bunch even to me,and i generally keep abreast of current affairs.
.

Yes, but presumably not within their own constituencies which is the only thing that counts under our current electoral system. Unless one of them is your MP then your view of them is pretty irrelevant tbh, as you won't have a vote. I would imagine that they are pretty well known in their constituencies.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:56 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Problem Lab have is that they don't regard some of the things they say are anti-semitic.

The fact that everybody else does is completely irrelevant to them.

I can agree with that. But there's also a lot of things that are regarded as anti-Semitic that if you applied to any other situation would be considered fair criticism.

An example recently is a congresswoman in the US. She criticised AIPAC influence and policies as being "all about the Benjamins", referring to $100 bills which have Benjamin Franklin on them. She's literally criticising a lobbying group and they influence they have because it's all about money, which is true for almost every major lobbying group, but because AIPAC is an entirely pro-Israel lobbying group it's not OK to criticise it or the politicians it bribes because THAT is anti-Semitic. But she could say the exact same thing about literally any other lobbyist group and it would be perfectly OK.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:14 am

3 Tories have jumped ship to join this lot.

Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:26 pm

EC can you change the Title of your thread as it appears incorrect to "Blue Tori MPs to split from Party" please.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:30 pm

I think that may be it as far as Tory defections go. They are all about the EU.

Labour defections are about the leadership, racism, bullying, incompetence and Brexit. I suspect there are more to come.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:36 pm

android wrote:I do not like racism so it is not tired old bs to me.

Casually implying that because i think the suggestion that Labour is a racist part is bs it must mean i like racism.

lol. You people need to make up your minds. Am i calling out racism too much, or do i actually like racism? It can't be both. Let me know what you decide.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:52 pm

Guich wrote:I think that may be it as far as Tory defections go. They are all about the EU.
.

I bet it's not. The nearer we get to March 29th, either the ERG will break away, or there'll be a significant exodus from those who are implacably opposed to a cliff-edge "no deal", such as Dominic Grieve, Philip Lee, Sam Gyimah, Justine Greening and indeed potentially even cabinet ministers.
V unlikely May can hold both factions together.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:07 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Ah. It's that tired old bullshit about hating Jews again.

Which part of your statement do you NOT think is racist?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:03 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Which part of your statement do you NOT think is racist?

Are you saying i've made a racist statement? I'd challenge you to back up that opinion with an explanation, but Sidney says that's too mean.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:20 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Are you saying i've made a racist statement? I'd challenge you to back up that opinion with an explanation, but Sidney says that's too mean.

Yes. You made a racist statement, typical of the "Labour left" as has been stated by some of the 8 MPs who have resigned the Labour party for this reason, this and that Cornyn would be terrible PM.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:20 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:I bet it's not. The nearer we get to March 29th, either the ERG will break away, or there'll be a significant exodus from those who are implacably opposed to a cliff-edge "no deal", such as Dominic Grieve, Philip Lee, Sam Gyimah, Justine Greening and indeed potentially even cabinet ministers.
V unlikely May can hold both factions together.

I hadn't considered the ERG breaking away I admit. But while the Tories love to rip themselves apart over Europe they do tend to come together for 'the greater good'.

While the news headlines have been dominated by defections and ISIS it'll be interesting to see whether the conciliatory noises coming from Merkel, Macron et al have materialised to nudge a deal closer.

But away from the EU there are more reasons for moderate Labour MPs to leave and that is independent of March 29th.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:21 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Are you saying i've made a racist statement? I'd challenge you to back up that opinion with an explanation, but Sidney says that's too mean.

There's a difference between being accused of racism and thinking someone's a joke.

I don't think you're a racist...

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:24 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Yes. You made a racist statement, typical of the "Labour left" as has been stated by some of the 8 MPs who have resigned the Labour party for this reason, this and that Cornyn would be terrible PM.

What was my racist statement, and how was it racist?

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:24 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What was my racist statement, and how was it racist?

Did you boo Bong?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:30 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What was my racist statement, and how was it racist?

Ask Luciana Berger. She has experienced it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:34 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Ask Luciana Berger. She has experienced it.

You've made the claim that I made a racist statement and i think you should tell me what my racist statement was, and explain why it was racist.

Are you going to do that?

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:32 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Nothing wrong with any of that and having worker representation on boards is a good idea, but the representation has to be enlightened. Sounds simple, but I don't think the old hard left of the the Labour Party or Union movement are particularly enlightened. It's hard to compare German employment relationships to our own, based on historical events, but still a good idea.

Our industrial relations have always been an adversarial Wild West with the government legislating back to work as a last resort. If binding arbitration were introduced, the whole approach would change.

Corbyn is often held up as being “old left” (okay and on paper he is old and he is left), but if you look at what he campaigns for, and what he talks about there’s nothing Marxist there. There’s no way he would have enthused students and other people with bland Leninist rhetoric.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:43 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Our industrial relations have always been an adversarial Wild West with the government legislating back to work as a last resort. If binding arbitration were introduced, the whole approach would change.

Corbyn is often held up as being “old left” (okay and on paper he is old and he is left), but if you look at what he campaigns for, and what he talks about there’s nothing Marxist there. There’s no way he would have enthused students and other people with bland Leninist rhetoric.

If you ask people why they think he's a Commy they won't answer you. Go on. Try it. Find someone who's called him a Commy and ask them why they think that.

android · Post by **android** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:06 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Casually implying that because i think the suggestion that Labour is a racist part is bs it must mean i like racism.

lol. You people need to make up your minds. Am i calling out racism too much, or do i actually like racism? It can't be both. Let me know what you decide.

Eh? "You people..." I am not Jewish if that is what you think?

You tried to ridicule someone (including your special kind of stupid routine) for pointing out that, under its current leadership, Labour is now a racist party. Apart from the anti-Semitism problem, there is no reason to think Labour is a racist party. So I assumed you had taken the view that anti-Semitism is not racism. I was simply pointing out that, like many people, I do regard anti Semitism as a form of racism. In your post to Lancaster you seemed to acknowledge that Labour has an anti-Semitism problem. (Well done! 8 MPS have just resigned because of it or partly because of it - certainly the main reason for at least 2 of them). But I don't really know what you think and I was posting what I think.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:22 pm

android wrote:Eh? "You people..." I am not Jewish if that is what you think?

...

What the ****?

android · Post by **android** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:30 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What the ****?

Ok that bit was a deliberate wind up. But seriously, I have no idea which people you think I belong to or why you try to categorise?

Are you going to ignore the rest of my post?

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:30 pm

Nobody likes being called racist when they're not.

As Burnley fans we should know that more than most.

But accusations of racism can be used as an insult to beat down other people's views; as the Brexit 'debate' proves every single day.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:34 pm

android wrote:Ok that bit was a deliberate wind up. But seriously, I have no idea which people you think I belong to or why you try to categorise?

Are you going to ignore the rest of my post?

I don't accept your premise that labour is a racist party because i don't accept that it is an anti-Semitic party.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:41 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I don't accept your premise that labour is a racist party because i don't accept that it is an anti-Semitic party.

That's fine you believing that IT, but it's a stance which isn't helping Corbyn shake off the recently earned 'nasty party' tag.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:48 pm

Guich wrote:That's fine you believing that IT, but it's a stance which isn't helping Corbyn shake off the recently earned 'nasty party' tag.

I don't particularly care.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:22 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Yes. You made a racist statement, typical of the "Labour left" as has been stated by some of the 8 MPs who have resigned the Labour party for this reason, this and that Cornyn would be terrible PM.

Can you, or anyone else with a brain, seriously believe that Corbyn is less capable of being PM than Theresa May?

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:52 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Can you, or anyone else with a brain, seriously believe that Corbyn is less capable of being PM than Theresa May?

Both May and Corbyn survive as Party leaders only because we are in a political maelstrom at the moment. Brexit has truly divided the nation: the terms of withdrawal, whether we should withdraw on such a tight electoral mandate, what will be the consequences of withdrawal - especially in the short term where there is not a single positive forecast nor prediction - and how much will it impact the general public.

Nobody else is willing to stick their head on the chopping block until the ramifications and finger pointing die down. No-one else is prepared to go down in history as the worst Prime Minister and the worst Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition ever - and let's face it, with the current national political civil war, no other outcome is possible. Satisfy half the people and upset half the people - there can be no compromise position when something so radical is enacted on a 52-48 vote.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:01 pm

I wouldn't trust either to run a bath.

May can't deal with internal division

Corbyn doesn't want anybody doesn't share his vision.

They both need a massive kick up the arse, and hopefully this kind of thing will change things for the better

Erasmus · Post by **Erasmus** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:12 pm

A lot of the anti-semitism claims come from the fact that supporters of Israel too often claim that criticism of Israel is anti-semitic or is based on anti-semitic sentiment. This is completely false. I abhor anti-semitism and any other form of racism and the same values that form the basis of that view lead me to an abhorrence of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians. People are saying the Labour Party is anti-semitic but rarely if ever are such claims supported by evidence or examples. For the most part it is cheap trick to deflect legitimate criticism of the cruel policies of the Israeli regime.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:16 pm

I love your posts Erasmus, but the evidence is pretty conclusive that quite a few Labour members are anti-semitic.

The problem appears to be that they think they are doing it with the tact support of senior Labour politicians. Until the message gets through (and it doesn't seem to be) then this is not going to go away.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:20 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:If you ask people why they think he's a Commy they won't answer you. Go on. Try it. Find someone who's called him a Commy and ask them why they think that.

People who call Corbyn a Commy simply don't know the difference between Communism and Socialism. Americans use either interchangeably due to the Unions being infiltrated by Communists and Anarchists under the disguise of Socialism in the early 20C. To mix up the two is pretty much a guide to how informed the reply is likely to be, or that is how I work it.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:45 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I wouldn't trust either to run a bath.

May can't deal with internal division

Corbyn doesn't want anybody doesn't share his vision.

They both need a massive kick up the arse, and hopefully this kind of thing will change things for the better

You're not far wrong there,
i'd like to think it's a first step towards a whole new political system for the UK, PR perhaps?