Labour MPs To Split From Party?

android · Post by **android** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:49 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I don't accept your premise that labour is a racist party because i don't accept that it is an anti-Semitic party.

In that case you should ease off with the lectures on evidence based opinions!

android · Post by **android** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:52 pm

Corbyn's election advisor is a Communist. His shadow chancellor is a Marxist. Is his spin doctor Milne a Communist - I don't know but he is certainly an admirer of Communism as was Corbyn. We know enough to get the picture.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:55 pm

I think he's absolutely useless, but I don't think he is a communist.

Do I think he is dangerous if he's the PM?

Depends on whether he actually listens to his members or not. The evidence is growing that he will ignore them if it doesn't suit.

As Elwa says, there are big differences between socialism and communism.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:56 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:See Derek Hatton is back in.

Its almost like this Labour party hasn't learnt a single lesson from the past.

Surely not the case with Jeremy Corbyn in charge?

DH suspended from the party already.
Concerning a tweet about the Israeli government from a few years ago. (BBC)

android · Post by **android** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:58 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote: As Elwa says, there are big differences between socialism and communism.

Yes - Venezuela or East Germany. Take your pick.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:03 pm

boatshed bill wrote:You're not far wrong there,
i'd like to think it's a first step towards a whole new political system for the UK, PR perhaps?

The problem with PR no one can resolve is that minor parties always hold the larger to ransom, so nothing ever gets done. Look how Germany is paralyzed politically for every reason PR is not the answer.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:07 pm

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/li ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:08 pm

How is Germany even remotely like that again?!?

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:20 pm

Damo wrote:https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/li ... ssion=true

Oh dear. The Socialist/Communist/Thatcherite himself. They've just ended any hope of being elected if this is legit.

Erasmus · Post by **Erasmus** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:29 pm

Lancaster, can you cite any examples of Labour MPs doing or saying anything that is anti-semitic? I haven't seen anything that would support any such claim.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:31 pm

Don't think its the MPs, though Chris Williamson cuts it very fine indeed.

Its individual members and organisations that do it.

Put it one way, even the Corbynistas acknowledge that Luciana Berger has had a shed load

Erasmus · Post by **Erasmus** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:40 pm

Again I haven't seen any direct reports of anything that has been said by Labour Party associations that can be taken as anti-semitic. I am sure there are some examples from individual members, but I haven't seen any direct quotations that are anti-semitic. A lot of the time it looks like an orchestrated smear campaign by supporters of Israel. But if you can quote any direct statements that are anti-semitic I am quite willing to modify my views.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:44 pm

Where are you looking Erasmus?

There are plenty of examples if you google it.

I ignore the Conservative attempts to smear btw, but to me (as a non-Labour supporter) it looks like Lab members still haven't worked out that supporting Palestine and disliking Israel is fine, but sweeping generalisations about Jews are not.

From what I can gather, the speed of the Lab response to anti-semitism posts and complaints is considered nowhere near either quick enough or through enough to placate Jewish Labour members.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:47 pm

android wrote:In that case you should ease off with the lectures on evidence based opinions!

What evidence is there that the party's racist? Does it have any racist policies? Does it discriminate against certain races?

Please explain why you think it's a racist party.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:52 pm

I think Jess Philips (who is ace btw) sums it up pretty well about 1 minute in

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/sta ... 0616682496" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Worth mentioning as well that blatant anti-semitism like George Galloway and Ken Livingstone have been JC colleagues and friends for his entire political career and both got expelled for anti-semitism.

I mean, lets not pretend its not a problem because Labour are not as bad as the conservatives eh?

Erasmus · Post by **Erasmus** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:08 pm

Lancaster, I did have a look at a website and you are right, there are some examples that are clearly anti-semitic. But included in the list of examples of anti-semitism are some that are anti-Zionism, which I don't think is the same. Even the hurtful comparisons between Nazism and Zionism are not anti-semitic. They are unpleasant given the historical context, but they are not racist.

A good proportion of the directly anti-semitic statements come from Muslim Labour Party members. There is also an issue regarding the current tone of political debate in which one of the aims seems to be to hurt and wound opponents on a personal level. I am quite an old persons and a lifetime Labour supporter but that is because I want to see less suffering in the world through a more equitable distribution of wealth. Trying to make your political opponents suffer on a personal level with abuse and insults seems antithetical to left wing ideals I subscribe to. But I suppose that's what happens when you get old, you get out of date as well.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:15 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I think Jess Philips (who is ace btw) sums it up pretty well about 1 minute in

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/sta ... 0616682496" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Worth mentioning as well that blatant anti-semitism like George Galloway and Ken Livingstone have been JC colleagues and friends for his entire political career and both got expelled for anti-semitism.

I mean, lets not pretend its not a problem because Labour are not as bad as the conservatives eh?

I believe those two ***** are no longer Labour members.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:37 pm

I believe that as well.

But they were expelled for anti-semitism

Erasmus - you found anti-semite posts within a couple of minutes.

I ask again, where have you been looking not to notice that before?

Erasmus · Post by **Erasmus** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:11 pm

Sorry, I hadn't been looking. It was just that I hear a lot of statements like 'institutionally anti-semitic' and I have seen some evidence given for 'anti-semitism' that is just political condemnations of Israel and Zionism. Even if you look at the international definition of anti-semitism some items on the list are not racist but things like denying the right of Israel to exist. That is not anti-semitism, it is just an extreme political position. But you are right there are some elements in the Labour Party who make statements that are clearly racist. The problem arises when people try to suggest that condemnation of Israeli policies is racist. I still think it is just a small minority of individuals who make racist statements, it does not represent the party as a whole which has a long history of opposing anti-semitism,

android · Post by **android** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:38 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What evidence is there that the party's racist? Does it have any racist policies? Does it discriminate against certain races?

Please explain why you think it's a racist party.

I have already said that, apart from the anti-Semitism, the Labour party is not racist (that is obvious). The anti-Semitism is well documented and I am not going to spoon feed you. It would be a waste of time anyway, as you believe what you want to believe. We all do to a certain extent but you seem to only recognise it in others and not yourself.

If the leadership tolerates anti-Semitism (which it clearly does as long as the perpetrators are politically onboard), then I think it is fair to describe that party as racist on the grounds that anti-Semitism is a form of racism. And Corbyn's own behaviour indicates anti-Semitism (although as Lancs says he is too dim to realise it and no doubt truly believes he isn't) - I'm talking about the mural defence and the they are not like us comment for example (imagine if that had been about a black person).

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:42 pm

android wrote:I have already said that, apart from the anti-Semitism, the Labour party is not racist (that is obvious). The anti-Semitism is well documented and I am not going to spoon feed you. It would be a waste of time anyway, as you believe what you want to believe. We all do to a certain extent but you seem to only recognise it in others and not yourself.

If the leadership tolerates anti-Semitism (which it clearly does as long as the perpetrators are politically onboard), then I think it is fair to describe that party as racist on the grounds that anti-Semitism is a form of racism. And Corbyn's own behaviour indicates anti-Semitism (although as Lancs says he is too dim to realise it and no doubt truly believes he isn't) - I'm talking about the mural defence and the they are not like us comment for example (imagine if that had been about a black person).

I honestly thought you might have been different, android. I really did. I really had some hope that you would have answered the perfectly reasonable question I asked. Instead you've invented an excuse not to answer. Just like everyone else.

If you want to convince me that you are right then the very least you could do is explain WHY you think you are right. If you won't even do that then your opinion is not worth my consideration.

I really hoped you would actually engage in a good faith discussion, but you're like the rest of them.

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:11 pm

Lancasterclaret

Could you provide the evidence for the following:

"...blatant anti-semitism like George Galloway and Ken Livingstone..."

android · Post by **android** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:42 pm

I am much too old for that type of nonsense IT. I answered your question in good faith and you must not have like the answer and/or wanted to end the discussion I suppose.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:33 pm

elwaclaret wrote:The problem with PR no one can resolve is that minor parties always hold the larger to ransom,

Isn't that what's kept the Tories in power here and now?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:55 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:You've made the claim that I made a racist statement and i think you should tell me what my racist statement was, and explain why it was racist.

Are you going to do that?

Another time, maybe. For now just read what Joan Ryan has to say.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:59 am

boatshed bill wrote:Can you, or anyone else with a brain, seriously believe that Corbyn is less capable of being PM than Theresa May?

Hi boatshed, TM is not a great PM, but that's a credit and Conservative party issue.

It's Labour and ex-Labour MPs who have said that Jeremy Corbyn is not fit to be PM. The rest of the country have always known that.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:04 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi boatshed, TM is not a great PM, but that's a credit and Conservative party issue.

It's Labour and ex-Labour MPs who have said that Jeremy Corbyn is not fit to be PM. The rest of the country have always known that.

Some Labour supporters, admittedly. But Corbyn has given the Labour Party a massive boost with membership increasing.
The problem he has is dealing with the Blairites.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:11 am

One thing the left do absolutely love is a good purge of unbelievers.

Normally happens when they are about to get completely destroyed as they perceive that the only reason they are not winning is those who don't believe enough. So they get rid of them, one way or another.

Its absolutely hilarious that all this is out there, and it keeps happening time and time again.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:13 am

boatshed bill wrote:Isn't that what's kept the Tories in power here and now?

Fair comment and clearly the whole episode has hardly been a glowing endorsement of the FPTP system. How some politicians and ex-politicians still dare to show their faces in public shows the complete lack of class in our politicians. Maybe some hybrid will ultimately provide the best solution. But I agree if on nothing else that its a bloody mess completely of politicians making.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:15 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:One thing the left do absolutely love is a good purge of unbelievers.

Normally happens when they are about to get completely destroyed as they perceive that the only reason they are not winning is those who don't believe enough. So they get rid of them, one way or another.

Its absolutely hilarious that all this is out there, and it keeps happening time and time again.

The thing here, as far as I'm concerned, is that the labour Party should represent the more left-wing of political thinking. It's why it was created. If not enough people are happy with that then they need to vote for something else, don't they?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:23 am

No, I've no problem with that , I'm just saying that what you are seeing here is classic left wing (and right wing to be fair) politics in action.

Very popular at first, but as time goes on doubts creep in about what they can actually do and people start to complain about stuff they do.

They then assume that people are disloyal and remove those people (depending on how left wing (or right wing to be fair!) the party is then that can include lining them up against a wall) in a dramatic purge that alienates even more people, and repeat ad nauseam.

Both Lab and Cons need centre voters to vote for them to win outright majorities. They are both not doing anything to attract them, but everything to repel them.

And that gives small parties a lot of power (see Lib Dem, DUP, SNP)

Once parties obsess all the time about ideology, they forget about actual working politics and how you have to win to do anything. Labour at the moment don't appear to realise that.

QUICK EDIT - see the reaction to the defectors from both Lab and the Conservatives. Lab briefing like mad, going into overdrive about how bad this lot are and that they are **** of the earth, further alienating them and people who sympathise with them. Cons? Saying how sorry they are they have left and holding out the olive branch if they decide to take it. Much more pragmatic and much more sensible if you wanted to actually win.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:25 am

boatshed bill wrote:The thing here, as far as I'm concerned, is that the labour Party should represent the more left-wing of political thinking. It's why it was created. If not enough people are happy with that then they need to vote for something else, don't they?

Voting for something else helps the Tories in our current FPTP system.

We have an electoral system that doesn't allow the public to freely vote for the party they want because doing so might help the party you fundamentally oppose.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:34 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Voting for something else helps the Tories in our current FPTP system.

We have an electoral system that doesn't allow the public to freely vote for the party they want because doing so might help the party you fundamentally oppose.

is "tactical voting" any better?
Personally I'd have the whole system shut down. it's not working for the country as a whole, which is surely its only real purpose.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:48 am

boatshed bill wrote:The thing here, as far as I'm concerned, is that the labour Party should represent the more left-wing of political thinking. It's why it was created.

It was also created to give these people political representation in Parliament. Something that it is clearly incapable of delivering if it only represents a minority group, under an incompetent leader who is intolerant of views that don't completely align with his own, and who has shown himself to be incapable of effectively dealing with the 2 key issues that have divided his party - brexit and anti-semitism.
If the Labour Party isn't an inclusive, outward-looking, forward thinking broad church then it cannot deliver.

android · Post by **android** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:44 am

Another Labour MP has left the party due to racism. Your thoughts Imploding Turtle?

dermotdermot · Post by **dermotdermot** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:47 pm

His thoughts? Does anyone really care?

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:57 pm

Seemingly not, if you are die hard labour or a fan of Corbyn then Jews are fair game to be targeted.

android · Post by **android** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:11 pm

I care about IT! Much potential if he becomes a bit more magnanimous in debate! Unfortunately I think he is sulking at me at present.

Anyway, for anyone interested in Corbyn and anti-Semitism, I recommend a talk by Dave Rich in the House of Commons in December. Explains not just Labour's anti-Semitism problem but also Corbyn's world view very well. Effectively in a round about way it explains why I personally don't think fretting over whether Corbyn is a Socialist or a Communist matters in the slightest.

I'm not good at links but I found the Dave Rich speech on Rachel Riley's twitter feed. I have been keeping an eye on Rachel (it's a tough job but someone has to do it), as she has received a ton of abuse from Corbynistas for her anti Semitism campaign.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:46 pm

"Corbynistas"??
To be perfectly honest I vote for the party, the policies and not the personality of the leader.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:02 pm

android wrote:Another Labour MP has left the party due to racism. Your thoughts Imploding Turtle?

Why would I care?

Edit: oh, right. Because i don't think Labour is a racist party.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:07 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Seemingly not, if you are die hard labour or a fan of Corbyn then Jews are fair game to be targeted.

And in your opinion i'm one or both of them, right? And what's more, you think that means i hate Jewish people?

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:15 pm

I'd probably leave this one alone IT, if I were you...

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:17 pm

Guich wrote:I'd probably leave this one alone IT, if I were you...

Why?

RMutt · Post by **RMutt** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:38 pm

It is always going to be difficult for the Labour Party to accommodate a Friends of Israel group and a Friends of Palestine and the Middle East group under the same party umbrella given the history of conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians. The leaving MP’s are almost all part of the FOI group and no doubt will have been on the end of some heated comment given the fact that Labour also has very vociferous Palastinian supporters. There is also in the mix the issue that criticism of Israel is deemed anti Semitic by some and of course the views of various other religious groups within the Labour Party. All in all very difficult to police to the satisfaction of all. The Tories do not have this problem as they have few supporters of the Palestinians in their ranks.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:56 pm

RMutt wrote: The Tories do not have this problem as they have few supporters of the Palestinians in their ranks.

No, but they do appear to have quite a few Islamophobes, but no one within the party (except Baroness Warsi) has done much about it.

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:22 pm

Perhaps it would help if British MPs were to spend a bit more time working to solve problems in Britain rather than pontificating and posturing about age old issues in the Middle East. Do members of the Knesset row about politics in Britain ?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:35 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:Perhaps it would help if British MPs were to spend a bit more time working to solve problems in Britain rather than pontificating and posturing about age old issues in the Middle East. Do members of the Knesset row about politics in Britain ?

Gotta get that oil and arms money.

android · Post by **android** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:29 pm

[quote="Imploding Turtle"]Why would I care?

No thoughts. So be it. I rest my case. Goodnight.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:32 pm

android wrote:
No thoughts. So be it. I rest my case. Goodnight.

This makes absolutely no sense. What case? What am I being accused of now?

android · Post by **android** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:09 pm

Perhaps that was unclear - to be honest I have reached the point where I feel I have wasted too much time on this now.

My case is that Labour under its current leadership has a big problem with anti-Semitism, which it tolerates at best and encourages at worst. There is plenty of evidence for this if you are willing to look. Anti-semitism is a form of racism. Many Labour (and now ex-Labour) MPs acknowledge this problem and some have suffered terribly as a result of it. Others like Rachel Riley have also suffered dogs abuse and it is not surprising, as the leader has no interest in tackling it - why would he, he is guilty of it himself. So yes, the evidence is there that Labour has sadly become a racist party under Corbyn - tragic for most of its MPs and supporters.

You appear to be in denial about it. You like to criticise other people on the grounds that you only deal in facts and truth and evidence but you do not want to see it when it comes to Corbyn. The Dave Rich speech is worth listening to - only 53 minutes!

Probably time for me to move on. Great results tonight.