McNeil - Future England Player?

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:32 pm

I know he's only 19, but don't forget, both Owen and Rooney hit their peak at 17 and 18 years old. So do you think McNeil is good enough to play for the England side in the European Championship finals next year?

I'll be surprised if he's not in the squad.

Apologies for creating a thread about football.

Tricky Trevor · Post by **Tricky Trevor** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:36 pm

Possibly but not that soon.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:39 pm

I don't think the rest of this season and all of next season is too soon. He'll no doubt play games for the under 21s, but next year he'll be 20 and have two seasons for us under his belt. I think he'll be in the squad.

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:44 pm

DustyBawls wrote:I know he's only 19, but don't forget, both Owen and Rooney hit their peak at 17 and 18 years old. So do you think McNeil is good enough to play for the England side in the European Championship finals next year?

I'll be surprised if he's not in the squad.

Apologies for creating a thread about football.

Possibly Dusty m8 but only Captain Waistcoat can tell you that...

How very dare you

have the affrontery to deign to take it upon yourself to start a thread about football.... shame on you sir, shame on you

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:46 pm

He's done well for us so far. Just like to see that continue for a while ............ with us.

Papabendi · Post by **Papabendi** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:51 pm

One step at a time please

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:56 pm

I don't think he is anywhere near yet. As well as he has done I doubt he would be in many of the sides above us. Owen and Rooney were exceptional, remember Rooney was knocking grown men over at the age of 16.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:56 pm

Papabendi wrote:One step at a time please

This could realistically be his peak. In fact, I said 17/18 - Rooney was at his best at 16. He scored his first goal against Arsenal and did well until he was around 21-22. But he was at his best at aged 16. Michael Owen was at his peak at 17 and 18 when he scored against Argentina. That was him at his best.

McNeil is older than when both of those were at their best. So this could be the best we see McNeil at.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:57 pm

Steady, steady, steady.

He's doing very well for us, but he's a kid playing with the freedom that comes from knowing no fear, having the goodwill of the crowd and being a (relatively) unknown quantity. He's got huge potential, but how far he goes depends on how he reacts to the setbacks he'll inevitably have, and on how hard he works - and on how lucky he is. And we're probably indulging some mistakes he makes - especially defensively - because we want him to do well and are excited by his emergence.

My guess is that in the modern game, to go to the very top he'll have to move inside and play as a central midfielder, which I suspect will require him to improve his defensive attributes (not that Paul Scholes, for example, was a great tackler).

But I definitely don't buy the idea that young players routinely peak as teenagers, or the impact that Owen and Rooney made as kids is relevant. The majority of players peak in their mid-to-late 20s, and I'd probably say that - although the weight of England expectation took its toll - that was as true for Rooney as it was for most. Owen was different - but that was a result of injury.

What we've got to do with McNeil is not expect too much too soon, nor build him up with false comparisons. The minute there are social media discussions seriously comparing his career trajectory to Wayne Rooney's, is the point when we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:57 pm

JohnMac wrote:I don't think he is anywhere near yet. As well as he has done I doubt he would be in many of the sides above us. Owen and Rooney were exceptional, remember Rooney was knocking grown men over at the age of 16.

Well he's our best player and the first name on the teamsheet. He's just not lasting the full 90.

Tricky Trevor · Post by **Tricky Trevor** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:58 pm

Sterling, Sanchez et al are all in front of him. Very good players to be knocking out of the team. I’d love it if he could.

Papabendi · Post by **Papabendi** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:03 pm

claretspice wrote:Steady, steady, steady.

But I definitely don't buy the idea that young players routinely peak as teenagers, or the impact that Owen and Rooney made as kids is relevant. The majority of players peak in their mid-to-late 20s, and I'd probably say that - although the weight of England expectation took its toll - that was as true for Rooney as it was for most. Owen was different - but that was a result of injury.

what both had in common is that they played far too many times at too young an age and were constantly rushed back from injury early.

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:05 pm

Cant believe some people.

They'd have him playing for England and/or sold off before he's had a chance to do anything for us.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:06 pm

claretspice wrote:Steady, steady, steady.

He's doing very well for us, but he's a kid playing with the freedom that comes from knowing no fear, having the goodwill of the crowd and being a (relatively) unknown quantity. He's got huge potential, but how far he goes depends on how he reacts to the setbacks he'll inevitably have, and on how hard he works - and on how lucky he is. And we're probably indulging some mistakes he makes - especially defensively - because we want him to do well and are excited by his emergence.

My guess is that in the modern game, to go to the very top he'll have to move inside and play as a central midfielder, which I suspect will require him to improve his defensive attributes (not that Paul Scholes, for example, was a great tackler).

But I definitely don't buy the idea that young players routinely peak as teenagers, or the impact that Owen and Rooney made as kids is relevant. The majority of players peak in their mid-to-late 20s, and I'd probably say that - although the weight of England expectation took its toll - that was as true for Rooney as it was for most. Owen was different - but that was a result of injury.

Hold on - only last week you were blowing his trumpet of him playing the number 10 role. Which isn't a midfielder, it's a support man. And you don't agree that Owen and Rooney were at their best in their teens? Of course they were. Owen was at his best aged 17-18. That's why he shocked the world with his goal against Argentina. And he was very good aged 21-22, but the injury is irrelevant - he wasn't as good at 21-22 than he was at 17. The injuries happened after his peak.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:08 pm

dougcollins wrote:Cant believe some people.
They'd have him playing for England and/or sold off before he's had a chance to do anything for us.

Call it a 'good eye'. I'm not alone in knowing when a player is quality. There's a handful of other posters on here who just know when a player is good.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:10 pm

considering Southgate likes to promote the youngsters he stands a chance, I'd be gobsmacked if he isn't in the next U21 squad

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:11 pm

I don't know the exact details re: careers of Rooney and Owen but I'm sure that their respective 'peaks' weren't achieved at ages 16 and 18. We may remember certain goals from those eras but their careers were more expansive beyond that.

whiffa · Post by **whiffa** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:11 pm

I mean he's a great player, playing really well at the minute - but I think if you remove the Burnley blinkers just for a second, when compared to the likes of Jadon Sancho - he's not on the same level (yet).

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:11 pm

DustyBawls wrote:Hold on - only last week you were blowing his trumpet of him playing the number 10 role. Which isn't a midfielder, it's a support man. And you don't agree that Owen and Rooney were at their best in their teens? Of course they were. Owen was at his best aged 17-18. That's why he shocked the world with his goal against Argentina. And he was very good aged 21-22, but the injury is irrelevant - he wasn't as good at 21-22 than he was at 17. The injuries happened after his peak.

I absolutely do think that before too long, the number 10/support man role would suit him and might be better for his long term development than playing wide. However, that's not to say it's the role he'll be playing in 10 years time. And I'm not suggesting that if he moves to play that role he'll somehow become the fulcrum of our team overnight - that's not how Sean Dyche teams work, apart from anything else.

As for comments on Owen and Rooney - I think you've misconstrued what I've written. The main point is that to the extent they did peak early, they're atypical, and so not really relevant to McNeil at all. Like I say, it's important that we don't start building McNeil up or thrusting unfair comparisons on him too young.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:13 pm

DustyBawls wrote:Well he's our best player and the first name on the teamsheet. He's just not lasting the full 90.

He has potential for sure but needs nurturing. There are so many good players out there who were great at 19 and finished by 21.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:14 pm

Silkyskills1 wrote:I don't know the exact details re: careers of Rooney and Owen but I'm sure that their respective 'peaks' weren't achieved at ages 16 and 18. We may remember certain goals from those eras but their careers were more expansive beyond that.

I can't believe we're actually debating this. Michael Owen was not better than he was at 17-18.
Rooney was his best when he was 16 and then he signed for Man U - scored a hatrick on his debut. Fenerbahce I think? That was his best. He was aged 18. 16-18 was Rooney's best.

So their peaks were in their teens.

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:21 pm

So over 80% of their careers they were in decline.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:26 pm

Silkyskills1 wrote:So over 80% of their careers they were in decline.

They just weren't as good as they were at their peak.

I remember watching Rooney's debut for Man U. He was immense. And I mean - World Class. He wasn't World Class once the fame/money got to his head and he decided to visit 90 year old grannies. He just wasn't. I know that, because I watch a lot of football and anybody who watches football and watched his career, knows he was at his best earlier in his career.

So declining for 80% of his career is an incorrect description. He was very very good for 10+ years, just not as good as he was in his teenage years. The same with Owen - he was at his best around the time he scored against Argentina. He was 18. Still a very good forward but was never as good later.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:30 pm

DustyBawls wrote:They just weren't as good as they were at their peak.

I remember watching Rooney's debut for Man U. He was immense. And I mean - World Class. He wasn't World Class once the fame/money got to his head and he decided to visit 90 year old grannies. He just wasn't.

He was about 17 when he was caught visiting that “Grannie” wasn’t he?
Perhaps you are suggesting that’s what made him World Class rather than the other way round?

Siddo · Post by **Siddo** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:32 pm

DustyBawls wrote:I can't believe we're actually debating this. Michael Owen was not better than he was at 17-18.
Rooney was his best when he was 16 and then he signed for Man U - scored a hatrick on his debut. Fenerbahce I think? That was his best. He was aged 18. 16-18 was Rooney's best.

So their peaks were in their teens.

Are you being serious that players peak at 18?
Those 2 players suffered through injuries and were never the same. But that is not reaching their peak.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:35 pm

U11, if he is lucky.
England? Nah.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:36 pm

Siddo wrote:Are you being serious that players peak at 18?
Those 2 players suffered through injuries and were never the same. But that is not reaching their peak.

A superb example of somebody twisting what somebody put to suit their own agenda. I know how ImplodingTurtle feels.

You are suggesting, I've said ALL players peak at 18. You know I never said that. I said Rooney and Owen both peaked in their teens. BECAUSE THEY DID.

Marney&Mee · Post by **Marney&Mee** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:39 pm

He was drafted in to train with England under 20’s when the beat Italy at afc Fylde last October

Walt · Post by **Walt** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:46 pm

The lad is undoubtedly talented but at this early stage his main issue is stamina. Hopefully that will develop over time but if he has a genuine limitation to athletic ability then he won't reach the very top.

We'll just have to wait and see how that progression goes.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:54 pm

DustyBawls wrote:I can't believe we're actually debating this. Michael Owen was not better than he was at 17-18.
Rooney was his best when he was 16 and then he signed for Man U - scored a hatrick on his debut. Fenerbahce I think? That was his best. He was aged 18. 16-18 was Rooney's best.

So their peaks were in their teens.

“You can’t believe we’re actually debating this”
Really ?

I think a hell of a lot of people would disagree with you - and I bet Rooney and Owen themselves would be 2 of them.
When Owen won the ballon d’or he was 22.
Rooney’s best seasons for club and country were also in his 20s.

Both were “child prodigies” though - Owen because of his pace and Rooney his strength and power...at 16 he had the physique of a 25 year old.
As Claretspice said they were the exception not the rule. McNeil has been brilliant but needs to do it for a lot longer and play under 21 football first. He has a lot of players in front of him at the moment.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:01 pm

TVC15 wrote:“You can’t believe we’re actually debating this”
Really ?

I think a hell of a lot of people would disagree with you - and I bet Rooney and Owen themselves would be 2 of them.
When Owen won the ballon d’or he was 22.
Rooney’s best seasons for club and country were also in his 20s.

Both were “child prodigies” though - Owen because of his pace and Rooney his strength and power...at 16 he had the physique of a 25 year old.
As Claretspice said they were the exception not the rule. McNeil has been brilliant but needs to do it for a lot longer and play under 21 football first. He has a lot of players in front of him at the moment.

A lot people know naff all about football. You're one of them.

Both Rooney and Owen were at their best in their teens. 100% fact. So yes... REALLY.

And this is why I know you don't know much about football - I'm talking about how they play. Rooney never played a better game for Man U after his debut. Never. Michael Owen never played better than the time he scored vs Argentina - never. That was when they were fresh and not afraid of the limelight. That was at their most dangerous.

I know I'm right.

ColonelCool · Post by **ColonelCool** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:03 pm

DustyBalls is correct. They were bloody brilliant when they were teenagers. Regarding McNeil, I don't think he's good enough for the England team, but he has time on his side. Not all players are at their best at 19.

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:13 pm

'So declining for 80% of his career is an incorrect description'

Not if,as you suggest, they both peaked inside the first 20% of their respective careers. They can't peak and then get better.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:14 pm

DustyBawls wrote:A lot people know naff all about football. You're one of them.

Both Rooney and Owen were at their best in their teens. 100% fact. So yes... REALLY.

And this is why I know you don't know much about football - I'm talking about how they play. Rooney never played a better game for Man U after his debut. Never. Michael Owen never played better than the time he scored vs Argentina - never. That was when they were fresh and not afraid of the limelight. That was at their most dangerous.

I know I'm right.

Stop making yourself look like a pr-ick eh.
I know you are excited cos it’s half term and you are off to McDonalds for a happy meal tomorrow but grow up and accept that we both just have different opinions.

I don’t think those 2 games were eithers best games by a long way - but even if I did that would not mean they were better then than they were later. I’m sure they both scored 7 or 8 goals a game when they were at school - does not mean they were better then.

MrTopTier · Post by **MrTopTier** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:15 pm

Wayne Rooney best two seasons were 2009/10 and 2011/12, Age 24 and 26.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:19 pm

TVC15 wrote:Stop making yourself look like a pr-ick eh.
I know you are excited cos it’s half term and you are off to McDonalds for a happy meal tomorrow but grow up and accept that we both just have different opinions.

I don’t think those 2 games were eithers best games by a long way - but even if I did that would not mean they were better then than they were later. I’m sure they both scored 7 or 8 goals a game when they were at school - does not mean they were better then.

Irony at it's best. Love it.

My view is you simply aren't very good at judging football. Whereas I am. That's the big difference between us.

ColonelCool · Post by **ColonelCool** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:22 pm

Michael Owen's career was ruined by injuries. He was certainly at his best though when he 18. I think Owen was 17 when he came onto the scene and Rooney was 16? Rooney was best at that point. Both were best when they first turned professional, but that was perhaps because they weren't afraid of the money and fame? Who knows. Both best in their teens though.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:22 pm

ColonelCool wrote:Michael Owen's career was ruined by injuries. He was certainly at his best though when he 18. I think Owen was 17 when he came onto the scene and Rooney was 16? Rooney was best at that point. Both were best when they first turned professional, but that was perhaps because they weren't afraid of the money and fame? Who knows. Both best in their teens though.

I know!

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:42 pm

Ah bless - you can both chat it through over your Happy Meal tomorrow.

Why did Owen win a ballon d’or when he was 22 then ?
How come Rooney’s best seasons by a distance in terms of statistics (goals, assists etc) were in his 20s ?
Why do you think Owen had a better game against Argentina than when he won the FA Cup v Arsenal ?

To say that Rooney was at his best when he was 16 is laughable....he was not even getting in the Everton team every week....which is not a surprise given he was still a schoolboy.

Of course they were both brilliant for their young ages but it’s ridiculous to say that they peaked at 16 or 17 years old.

BurnleyFC · Post by **BurnleyFC** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:42 pm

The Irish will be trying to poach him with his surname.

SammyBoy · Post by **SammyBoy** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:44 pm

MrTopTier wrote:Wayne Rooney best two seasons were 2009/10 and 2011/12, Age 24 and 26.

Correct

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:46 pm

TVC15 wrote:Ah bless - you can both chat it through over your Happy Meal tomorrow.

Why did Owen win a ballon d’or when he was 22 then ?
How come Rooney’s best seasons by a distance in terms of statistics (goals, assists etc) were in his 20s ?
Why do you think Owen had a better game against Argentina than when he won the FA Cup v Arsenal ?

To say that Rooney was at his best when he was 16 is laughable....he was not even getting in the Everton team every week....which is not a surprise given he was still a schoolboy.

Of course they were both brilliant for their young ages but it’s ridiculous to say that they peaked at 16 or 17 years old.

Jesus, you really are a crying sulky kid. Is the 15 in your username your age or your year of birth? You seriously need to start watching more football, because I can tell and I'm sure people reading this know - you really come across as never watching a football game in your life.

So, I appreciate your efforts... but I know they were both best in their teens.

Get back to me when you realise I'm right.

ColonelCool · Post by **ColonelCool** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:51 pm

I'm surprised people are debating the Rooney/Owen. I had this same chat in the Dyche pub prior to the game against Fulham. There must have been 8 of us in the end. We all agreed that they were at their best at the start of their careers. For Owen it was 17 and for Rooney it was 18. I thought this was a given for football fanatics. You could just tell with how they played.

ColonelCool · Post by **ColonelCool** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:58 pm

TVC15 wrote:Rather than repeating the same old sh-it and acting like a t-wat why don’t you respond to some of the points me and others are making which clearly suggest you are wrong.
Just because you keep on saying you are right does not make it so. When you say you “know” you were right at the very least try and back it up with some kind of argument or statistics.

Personal abuse doesn't do you any favours. And for what it's worth, I think he's spot on. They were best in their youth. And if you ever talked to me like you've been doing on here, you'd be eating your own teeth. So you owe a poster an apology.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:59 pm

TVC15 wrote:You are correct. Owen and Rooney were best in their teens.

I know, but thanks for confirming it.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:02 pm

ColonelCool wrote:Personal abuse doesn't do you any favours. And for what it's worth, I think he's spot on. They were best in their youth. And if you ever talked to me like you've been doing on here, you'd be eating your own teeth. So you owe a poster an apology.

Aye - course I would. Stick to playing video games eh.
Check the thread and what he said before you start making threats you can’t keep.

As I said it’s fine for people to have different opinions. Posting crap like “I know I am right” and you must never have watched football is pathetic

ColonelCool · Post by **ColonelCool** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:07 pm

TVC15 wrote:Aye - course I would. Stick to playing video games eh.
Check the thread and what he said before you start making threats you can’t keep.

As I said it’s fine for people to have different opinions. Posting crap like “I know I am right” and you must never have watched football is pathetic

Not played a 'video game' since the Pro Evo days so we're talking around 2005. I've checked the thread. He's probably had a few beverages, but he/she is still spot on regarding Owen and Rooney. But you do need to watch football to know it. I've followed both of their careers and I know they were best right from the beginning. I've also read some of your posts and you come across as a radio listener - who never watches football.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:13 pm

DustyBawls wrote:I can't believe we're actually debating this. Michael Owen was not better than he was at 17-18.
Rooney was his best when he was 16 and then he signed for Man U - scored a hatrick on his debut. Fenerbahce I think? That was his best. He was aged 18. 16-18 was Rooney's best.

So their peaks were in their teens.

Wayne Rooney’s career statistics would suggest that he was at his peak between 24-27 years old.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:15 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Wayne Rooney’s career statistics would suggest that he was at his peak between 24-27 years old.

Watch football and he was at his peak from 16-19.

Stats in this case, don't tell you the full story.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:17 pm

ColonelCool wrote:Not played a 'video game' since the Pro Evo days so we're talking around 2005. I've checked the thread. He's probably had a few beverages, but he/she is still spot on regarding Owen and Rooney. But you do need to watch football to know it. I've followed both of their careers and I know they were best right from the beginning. I've also read some of your posts and you come across as a radio listener - who never watches football.

I’ve been played and watched football for more than 40 years. I’ve seen Burnley play at more than 70 grounds....and I have seen United play many many times.

And even though I “think” I am right and I have said why I would not be so arrogant to say I “know” I am right. Rather than say you know you are right on something that is very clearly opinion based why do you not respond to the points people are making or provide some kind of evidence or statistics or rationale to substantiate your opinion.