Measles Outbreaks

[Imploding Turtle]

Are there not some religions that are against vaccinations?

**** religions.

[South West Claret.]

**** religions.

Now now language please

[Lord Beamish]

To be honest just had to deal with this for the first time. And it was a horrendous decision.

Generally you would take the medical professional advice. But there is so many stories out there. Along with the dangerous amount of research we can do ourselves these days. Good and bad.

While my mrs was pregnant they wanted her to have two jabs. One for flu. One for whooping cough. The latter protects the baby for 6 to 8 weeks before having the jab themselves. Its a new job. With no research into the affects it has as its not been around long enough to know. I also asked the midwife what she knew about the vaccine and she openly admitted she knew no more than my research. She was simply following medical recommendations. In the end we opted against both. Mrs didnt get flu and all has been well with the baby in the main. (We also know lots of people who have had flu vaccines and ended up ill anyway!)

Last week was time for the 8 week injections. Again a hugely difficult decision. But in this case there is more evidence about the after effects and risks. And we also assessed how likely baby is to be exposed to said illnesses etc. And for these we came to the conclusion that the risks and complications if she did catch measles or meningitis or whooping cough were far more significant than possible effects of the jabs. So we did go ahead with these.

But it wasnt a clear cut decision. We agonised over both sets of jabs for some time. And did extensive research.

We did what we felt was best in both situations. And i wouldnt judge or criticise anyone for doing one or the other.

Well said, Cricketfield.

Non combatants should really stay off the green.

[cricketfieldclarets]

There are a lot of conspiracies. And typically theyre green smokers who start or spread them haha.

In all seriousness though in most cases you have to go with the medical based evidence and scientific proof etc over the facebook conspiracy started by gaz from rosehill.

The reason we didnt go for the ones while she was pregnant was because there was little to no evidence based on how new the vaccines were, what the risk of exposure was and the fact they cant really use pregnant women as guinea pigs.

[dsr]

I'm not talking about punishing anyone who can't get vaccinated. I'm talking about punishing parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids.

At risk of bringing a bit of accuracy into the debate, your only practical suggestion so far has been to ban children from receiving a state education. That punishes the child, not the parents.

[dsr]

There are a lot of conspiracies. And typically theyre green smokers who start or spread them haha.

In all seriousness though in most cases you have to go with the medical based evidence and scientific proof etc over the facebook conspiracy started by gaz from rosehill.

The reason we didnt go for the ones while she was pregnant was because there was little to no evidence based on how new the vaccines were, what the risk of exposure was and the fact they cant really use pregnant women as guinea pigs.

You still have to be careful - medical professionals can be wrong. Both my older brothers could have had big problems if medical experts had been treated as infallible - one with thalidomide, the other with human growth hormone. It doesn't mean that medical professionals can be routinely ignored, but it does mean that I will not condemn those who treat medical professionals as possibly wrong.

[cricketfieldclarets]

You still have to be careful - medical professionals can be wrong. Both my older brothers could have had big problems if medical experts had been treated as infallible - one with thalidomide, the other with human growth hormone. It doesn't mean that medical professionals can be routinely ignored, but it does mean that I will not condemn those who treat medical professionals as possibly wrong.

Oh yes. 100 percent agree. Thats why we didnt go with the first two jobs mentioned on the earlier post.

Generally speaking though if its a tossup between W H O recommendations or some social media conspiracy I know which advice I would take. Especially for something as routine as the vaccinations.

But theres plenty of times ive ignored medical advice and with good reaaon and good outcome.

[Imploding Turtle]

At risk of bringing a bit of accuracy into the debate, your only practical suggestion so far has been to ban children from receiving a state education. That punishes the child, not the parents.

So does not vaccinating a child. So does forcing other children to be in school with an unvaccinated child.

If a parent wants to let their child die then they shouldn't be allowed to put the lives of others at risk when those others are forced by the law to be there. This would mean the parent either has to home school the child, or pay for private education. And if they didn't to either then they get to lose custody of the child because clearly they're **** parents who don't know what they're doing.

Tell me, why is it fairer for children who can't receive vaccines to be forced to attend school with kids whose parents choose not to vaccinate and i'll drop my argument.

What's more important, the lives of a dozen or so children who are being forced to attend school with an unvaccinated kid, or the state education of one child whose parents are ******* morons?

[dsr]

So does not vaccinating a child. So does forcing other children to be in school with an unvaccinated child.

If a parent wants to let their child die then they shouldn't be allowed to put the lives of others at risk when those others are forced by the law to be there. This would mean the parent either has to home school the child, or pay for private education. And if they didn't to either then they get to lose custody of the child because clearly they're **** parents who don't know what they're doing.

Tell me, why is it fairer for children who can't receive vaccines to be forced to attend school with kids whose parents choose not to vaccinate and i'll drop my argument.

What's more important, the lives of a dozen or so children who are being forced to attend school with an unvaccinated kid, or the state education of one child whose parents are ******* morons?

As so often before, you have misunderstood what I wrote. What I said was "your only practical suggestion so far has been to ban children from receiving a state education. That punishes the child, not the parents." Read it carefully, and you will see that it is a comment about your lack of suggestions for punishing the parents - and not, as you appear to have read it, a detailed commentary on the correct course of action for other parents to follow.

(It may help you to understand if you realise that parents who don't vaccinate their children do not do it because they want their child to die. They do it because they feel it is the better option for the health of their child. They may be right or wrong, but very few parents actually want their children to die. Try and grasp that.)

[Imploding Turtle]

As so often before, you have misunderstood what I wrote. What I said was "your only practical suggestion so far has been to ban children from receiving a state education. That punishes the child, not the parents." Read it carefully, and you will see that it is a comment about your lack of suggestions for punishing the parents - and not, as you appear to have read it, a detailed commentary on the correct course of action for other parents to follow.

(It may help you to understand if you realise that parents who don't vaccinate their children do not do it because they want their child to die. They do it because they feel it is the better option for the health of their child. They may be right or wrong, but very few parents actually want their children to die. Try and grasp that.)

I understood perfectly well what you said and my answer stands.

[Imploding Turtle]

Canada have the right idea. 6,000 suspensions over a lack of vaccination records.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchene ... -1.5034242" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mkmel]

What percentage of blame shall we assign to the anti-vaxxers of the world who think that vaccines cause autism? Every few days i'm reading about a new outbreak killing people, today i'm reading about how an outbreak in the Philippines has killed 136 people so far.

And in this country what punishment should there be for parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids?

My Fiancee is a Filipina and she has a 3 year old daughter soon to be my daughter too very soon and our little girl had her measles vaccination today

And not only measles vaccination today as in April she has mosquito vaccination and I think rabies one too unless she has already had it

Bless her but IMO the right decision

[aggi]

Looks like part of NY has taken a stricter path on this than IT's suggestion
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47715169" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Good move, it's time theses anti-vaxers started to understand the risk they're putting others at.

[Billy Balfour]

They never will, though. They embrace their ignorance. In fact, they appear to be proud of it. Also, for some of the more prolific gobshites, anti-vax 'campaigning' is making them money.

[Bosscat]

They never will, though. They embrace their ignorance. In fact, they appear to be proud of it. Also, for some of the more prolific gobshites, anti-vax 'campaigning' is making them money.

I am not anti-vax I find it a quite good household appliance not quite as efficient as a Dyson but not bad

[Billy Balfour]

I am not anti-vax I find it a quite good household appliance not quite as efficient as a Dyson but not bad

I always knew you were a wrong'un, Bosscat. I'm a Miele man myself.

[cricketfieldclarets]

People should be perfectly entitled to make their own decision on whether their children are vaccinated.

If people are getting their own kids vaccinated, the fact others are choosing not too hardly affects them if at all.

[WadingInDeeper]

I've never grasped the concept of I'm not vaccinating because I want to keep my child safe, so instead I'm going to put them and others at risk.

[aggi]

People should be perfectly entitled to make their own decision on whether their children are vaccinated.

If people are getting their own kids vaccinated, the fact others are choosing not too hardly affects them if at all.

And if the child is unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons then it's tough luck for them if they die due to other people's actions.

People who say stuff like this clearly don't understand how vaccination works on a large scale.

[thatdberight]

If we restrict the anti-vax brigade to only mixing with their own, it would mean we didn't have to worry about them for long.

[Falcon]

I'm fully on the 'exclude the children from schools, clubs, public places etc' side.

I know it is a bit like punishing the child of the idiot parents but it is to protect other children who may not be able to be vaccinated for medical reasons.

[IanMcL]

You really think there should be punishments for Parents who don’t Vaccinate their Kids?
Wow!
Or am I missing a Meta Joke, here?

Their punishment is the potential outcomes for their child.

They would not be able to get over it.

[cricketfieldclarets]

And if the child is unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons then it's tough luck for them if they die due to other people's actions.

People who say stuff like this clearly don't understand how vaccination works on a large scale.

And if the child cant be vaccinated for similar reasons...? Or don't need to be because they are already immune, as they can be with some diseases.

I understand perfectly how it works.

The midwife was pushing for my mrs to be vaccinated while pregnant. One of the vaccinations was new, with very limited research of side affects. The other wasn't. But the nurse knew nothing about either of them. Was just recommending them because she was told too...

FWIW we have had the 'normal' vaccinations. But opted against those mentioned above.

[duncandisorderly]

And if the child cant be vaccinated for similar reasons...? Or don't need to be because they are already immune, as they can be with some diseases.

I understand perfectly how it works.

The midwife was pushing for my mrs to be vaccinated while pregnant. One of the vaccinations was new, with very limited research of side affects. The other wasn't. But the nurse knew nothing about either of them. Was just recommending them because she was told too...

FWIW we have had the 'normal' vaccinations. But opted against those mentioned above.

How do you know there was limited research into the side affects? (I'm not taking sides - your kid and your wife so course you do what's best! but by the time drugs have gone out there has been rigorous testing, surely?)

[WadingInDeeper]

How do you know there was limited research into the side affects? (I'm not taking sides - your kid and your wife so course you do what's best! but by the time drugs have gone out there has been rigorous testing, surely?)

I not sure on that. We were once offered the chance for a child to be part of a clinical "trial", although not a vaccine. A bit of research showed it to be a very limited trial, and the potential risks were greater than the benefits in our case.

That's when it becomes a hard decision.

[cricketfieldclarets]

How do you know there was limited research into the side affects? (I'm not taking sides - your kid and your wife so course you do what's best! but by the time drugs have gone out there has been rigorous testing, surely?)

Because it has only been around for 18 months - 2 years. So while there will have been heavy research into the drug itself, there is clearly no detailed analysis of the after affects. As its too new to really know how it affects kids in later life.

As it happens it turned out OK and it wasnt needed. As she has now had the vaccination herself at 8 weeks. So she was only 'exposed' for 8 weeks as was always the case anyway.

[cricketfieldclarets]

I not sure on that. We were once offered the chance for a child to be part of a clinical "trial", although not a vaccine. A bit of research showed it to be a very limited trial, and the potential risks were greater than the benefits in our case.

That's when it becomes a hard decision.

Pretty much our thought process. Although it was of course past trial stage in the normal sense of the word, I still feel that many kids and pregnant mothers who did have it are a trial of sorts.

One of my customers is one of the main companies who doe the testing. And its fair to say that tonnes of research goes into the testing. Many of the drugs take 12+ years before they go to 'market'. But there is obviously (with good reason) only so much testing you can do on babies ad pregnant mothers. So its only when the new drugs are released can you start to see the real results.

[WadingInDeeper]

With us it would have involved surgery. But it was only one hospital trailing the procedure, and they hadn't had a high take up rate, and they didn't sell it well.

[cricketfieldclarets]

With us it would have involved surgery. But it was only one hospital trailing the procedure, and they hadn't had a high take up rate, and they didn't sell it well.

You were right not to take up. No child should be the guinea pig.

But don't tell animal rights people that. Or people who think you should HAVE to be vaccinated regardless.

[South West Claret.]

What percentage of blame shall we assign to the anti-vaxxers of the world who think that vaccines cause autism? Every few days i'm reading about a new outbreak killing people, today i'm reading about how an outbreak in the Philippines has killed 136 people so far.

And in this country what punishment should there be for parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids?

It’s surprising what some parents believe and take out of proportion, but on a positive note and as heartless as it may seem to say that less people in the world does help the climate change fight which in the medium to long term is the most important thing to remember for future generations.

[Imploding Turtle]

It’s surprising what some parents believe and take out of proportion, but on a positive note and as heartless as it may seem to say that less people in the world does help the climate change fight which in the medium to long term is the most important thing to remember for future generations.

Stupid people not vaccinating won't stop AGW. Stupid people not allowing action against AGW will stop AGW, eventually. And for the same reason, there'll be much fewer people.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Muslim council of Britain has rejected the use of a nasal flu vaccine Fluenz Tetra because it contains Pork geletine, however if there was no alternative they'd allow it to be used if lives were at risk.
The vegetarian society have also expressed similar concerns.

The NHS/government were planning on using the nasal version on every kid between 2 and 10 yrs old from next month, to create herd immunity.

Thankfully there are other alternatives, that aren't nasal sprays, so there isn't really an excuse not to vaccinate kids against Flu but ideally there would be a nasal version that suits all parties..

[cricketfieldclarets]

There shouldnt be any forced vaccinations.

An opt out systen is bette.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

There shouldnt be any forced vaccinations.

An opt out systen is bette.

As Turtle has rightly pointed out, if parents opt out of vaccinations then their kids shouldn't be allowed to attend things like schools in case they pass on diseases to others.

[mdd2]

As Turtle has rightly pointed out, if parents opt out of vaccinations then their kids shouldn't be allowed to attend things like schools in case they pass on diseases to others.

I think flu vaccination is about 40% effective. No reason to think all kids MUST be vaccinated. People should be allowed to choose.
Measles is different as the vaccine will almost guarantee protection from measles.
Better to get all kids vaccinated against human papilloma virus to rid us of most cases of cervical and anal cancer, genital warts and quite a lot of mouth cancers in the future

[cricketfieldclarets]

As Turtle has rightly pointed out, if parents opt out of vaccinations then their kids shouldn't be allowed to attend things like schools in case they pass on diseases to others.

But theyl only pass on to other unvaccinated kids. Unless the vaccines dont work?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

But theyl only pass on to other unvaccinated kids. Unless the vaccines dont work?

Some kids can't have the vaccinations, for health reasons so if kids are purposely not being vaccinated then they're putting others at risk.

Unfortunately people still believe the lies peddled by that former doctor all those years ago, which is just shocking.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Some kids can't have the vaccinations, for health reasons so if kids are purposely not being vaccinated then they're putting others at risk.

Unfortunately people still believe the lies peddled by that former doctor all those years ago, which is just shocking.

Its not about lies or believing things. Its about doing what you believe is right for your child and your family first and foremost.

We opted for our child to have some. But wouldnt judge any of us who opted otherwise.

Listened to a podcast recently about this subject. The interviewee was pro vaccines. And an expert in the field. But he really didnt do himself or the practice any favours at all. Didnt come accross well.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

If the doctor hadn't peddled his lies then we wouldn't be in the position we are now with Anti-vaxers, or at least there wouldn't be so many of them.

The expert doesn't have to come across well though, the evidence is out there in favour of vaccines.
The community in Holland, I think it was, that's against vaccines keeps having worse and worse outbreaks of measles every year and it's spreading out from there.

They aren't considering others.

[IanMcL]

A vaccinated population is free from the risk of these nasty illnesses. A section of the population without vaccine, becomes at great risk, especially when co-located.

It is crazy not to be vaccinated....especially if you travel abroad, too.

I had measles, chickenpox and mumps, when I was young. A boy at school had polio. He had only half an arm. He carried on and did everything the rest of did, but with more difficulty.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The government is considering making vaccinations compulsory after the UK lost its measles free status.

[Billy Balfour]

The government is considering making vaccinations compulsory after the UK lost its measles free status.

Blimey. Hopefully this govt finally gets something right for a change.

[IanMcL]

Xx

[IanMcL]

Makes you wonder how we children of the 50s survived. We had polio and diphtheria vacs!

I caught, measles, mumps and chicken pox. My sister had whooping cough

Get the vaccinations! You owe it to your child.