The Independent Group of MP's ...

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:16 pm

An eighth Labour MP has tonight resigned from Labour and joined the new grouping, Joan Ryan MP, the MP for Enfield North. She has echoed the comments of the seven who " jumped ship " yesterday, citing the " culture of anti-semitism, and the Leadership's failure to oppose Brexit or back a second referendum ".

All eight of these MP's are backing a " People's vote ( 2nd Referendum ) ", on the grounds that people didn't know what they were voting for. Not one of them has had the courage of their convictions, and resigned their seat, allowing their constituents to have a " People's vote ", in the light of their elected representative's new affiliations. At least when the two Conservative MP's defected to UKIP, they did so, resulting in both of them being re-elected under their new colours.

Any views ?

Aclaret · Post by **Aclaret** » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:20 pm

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:47 pm

Well worth watching ...especially from 07.40 to see the Chairperson of the Labour friends of Israel.......oops, the ex chairperson!

Joan Ryan

Don't Let The Door Hit You On The Way Out

"Al Jazeera Investigations exposes how the Israel lobby influences British politics. A six-month undercover investigation reveals how Israel penetrates different levels of British democracy.

Episode Three: In part three, our undercover reporter witnesses a heated conversation between two opposing activists. The evidence raises serious questions about whether accusations of anti-Semitism are used to stifle political debate."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/ ... 17792.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:03 am

Nick Watt, Newsnights political editor reporting that three Tory MPs, Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston
and Heidi Allen are preparing to jump ship, saying Conservative whips had told him the three
had gone "very, very quiet".

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:10 am

Hopefully enough MPs get on board from the main parties to form a decent opposition to the tories

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:27 am

The problem is going to be getting people to take their blinkers off and stop voting like sheep.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:01 am

splits the left wing vote, keeps the commies out.

gtclaret · Post by **gtclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:41 am

There is already a political home for them, it's called Lib Democrats

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:55 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:splits the left wing vote, keeps the commies out.

And that highlights the problem with our political system. The FPTP system virtually guarantees that any independent thinking group has little chance of breaking through.
Individuals (such as the 2 Tory to UKip defectors) might win byelections focused on specific issues, (Martin Bell springs to mind), but most MPs are discouraged from breaking away, because they know that in any subsequent election their vote base will be split between those who vote for "party" and those who vote for "policy / individual".
This then leaves the door wide open for another candidate to win who might only have as little as (say) 32% of the vote. (Maybe as little as 20% of the electorate).

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:40 am

gtclaret wrote:There is already a political home for them, it's called Lib Democrats

Sorry, trusted that shower before and got betrayed. Not going to give them a chance again, certainly not while the likes of Farron is around

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:52 am

You need to check out the voting record of the one of the members of the IG if that is your issue.

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:04 am

I have to admire the irony in a group of MP's campaigning for a second Brexit vote, based upon 'we didn't know what we were voting for', whilst simultaneously denying their constituents a by election, after they have changed political allegiance.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 am

Almost as bad as saying a 2nd vote isn't democratic if you think about it.

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:19 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Almost as bad as saying a 2nd vote isn't democratic if you think about it.

A second referendum is democratic as long as the decision is not allowed to be enacted until a third 'are you sure that you're sure' referendum happens, and so on and so on...

But we're going over the same point again (again).

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:22 am

Yes, we are.

Which is why referendums are bloody stupid without safeguards and planning.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:26 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yes, we are. Which is why referendums are bloody stupid without safeguards and planning.

By which you mean, ensuring that you only get the result you want ?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:54 am

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:14 am

Sarah Wollaston, Heidi Allen and Anna Soubry have now quit the Tories. ... BBC

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:27 am

ElectroClaret wrote:...Anna Soubry...had gone "very, very quiet".

This just seems so unlikely...

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:30 am

Heres confirmation https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47306022" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:53 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:You need to check out the voting record of the one of the members of the IG if that is your issue.

I'm far from single issue, however the way Farron conducts himself, on that, and their record under Clegg, means its a hard pass from me. Oh for the times of LD under Ashdown when they seemed a genuine alternative. Was it real, or had they just not had sufficient chance to f**k it up yet?

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:20 pm

The Dim Libs as they are referred to these days have always in my lifetime sided with the Tories when they have a sniff of power (2010) for example, so if you are even a half decent human being you will stay clear of voting for them, unless you do the sensible thing at most elections and vote tactically.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:30 pm

gtclaret wrote:There is already a political home for them, it's called Lib Democrats

If one more MP defects to them, they will have as many MP's as the lib dems, 2 days after forming

SGr · Post by **SGr** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:39 pm

If this lot have a proper party sorted by the next election I’m voting for it.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:40 pm

They demanded that because "We know so much more since the referendum , we need a People's Vote"

Since they were elected on manifestos of leaving the EU they now turned about face on that pledge. Their constituents know so much more.

"Peoples By Elections" it is then!

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:35 pm

Damo wrote:If one more MP defects to them, they will have as many MP's as the lib dems, 2 days after forming

With the defection of Joan Ryan last night, they're already matching the Lib Dems on 11 MP's. The difference being that the Lib Dems were elected, and are not occupying their seats under false pretences ....

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:21 pm

South West Claret. wrote:The Dim Libs as they are referred to these days have always in my lifetime sided with the Tories when they have a sniff of power (2010) for example, so if you are even a half decent human being you will stay clear of voting for them, unless you do the sensible thing at most elections and vote tactically.

You’re not a half decent human being, if you vote Lib Dem? Bizarre.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:36 pm

Sooner or later there'll be a GE and that it be the end of that for most of them and they know this too. This is why they won't resign their seats and put their faith in those who elected them on a party ticket back in 2017. Yet they bang on like they are the very embodiment of principled politics. What a joke.

Siddo · Post by **Siddo** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:09 pm

They are all taking a massive gamble, as they could all lose their seats in the next election and be all but finished in politics.
However, they feel so strongly about what is happening in British politics that they have taken this brave step.
There are so many pro right and pro left politicians doing what they believe is right for their party.
These people want to do what's right for the country.

timshorts · Post by **timshorts** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:13 pm

Good for them. I thought Chukka's speech was very refreshing in a way.

As above, though, unless we actually enact some constitutional reform - which we clearly won't as it isn't in the interests of either of the leading parties - then unless there is a wholesale revolt of the populous against the present political system, it is difficult to see this as a watershed moment.

It would need an anti-establishment uprising of greater proportions than the victory of Trump and Brexit put together, though, and the support of a few newspapers, including at least one aimed at those that are a bit intellectually challenged. I just don't see that happening.

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:16 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:Sooner or later there'll be a GE and that it be the end of that for most of them and they know this too. This is why they won't resign their seats and put their faith in those who elected them on a party ticket back in 2017. Yet they bang on like they are the very embodiment of principled politics. What a joke.

Of the 60 odd MPs who have defected since WW2 not one has stood down as MP so they could have a bye-election. Of the 1 British MEP who has defected since we joined the EU not 1 has stood down so we could have a bye election (even though people didn't vote him in and he was a 'make up the proportion' winner (Nigel Farage)

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:22 pm

Siddo wrote:However, they feel so strongly about what is happening in British politics that they have taken this brave step.

Brave? So why are they running scared by refusing to resign? Brave would be letting their constituents decide for themselves in a byelection.

Siddo wrote:These people want to do what's right for the country.

Again, let their electorate decide if what they are doing is for the good of the country. I won't hold my breath, though.

I'd have some respect for them if they resigned their seats and forced byelections, however, I find their refusal to do so quite contemptible.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:24 pm

There are 900 hours till Brexit.

That is their issue.

I would agree 100% with them that distractions like GEs and by elections should not be the priority at the moment.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:28 pm

Yes they want to do what they think is right for the country. A second referendum, laughingly promoted as 'The People's vote' is what they think is right for the country.

Of course objective fair minded people know that this would cause severely more damage to this country than a small group of losers who are betraying their constituents.

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:52 pm

Elizabeth wrote:Yes they want to do what they think is right for the country. A second referendum, laughingly promoted as 'The People's vote' is what they think is right for the country.

Of course objective fair minded people know that this would cause severely more damage to this country than a small group of losers who are betraying their constituents.

Even the Guru of the Leave campaign, Nigel Farage, stated, "A 52-48 split would not be the end of things.". Of course, that was when he thought they were going to lose the referendum. He also said that, "If things go badly after we leave, I will just move somewhere else.".

As almost half of the electorate never supported Brexit at all and, allegedly, over half of the electorate now do not support leaving the EU then a second referendum appears a good way of doing what is right for the country. At least with a general election if you vote for a sack of sh*t then you get a chance to change things after a few years. National suicide, or, indeed, any irrevocable change to our way of life should not be allowed with such a slim endorsement.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:00 pm

If leave were to win again would we schedule another referendum for 3-4 years just to make sure the people knew what they were doing?

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:01 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:There are 900 hours till Brexit.

That is their issue.

I would agree 100% with them that distractions like GEs and by elections should not be the priority at the moment.

Nothing will change with these resignations, apart from even more people, in these constituencies, losing their trust in politicians. None of these MPs are in the so-called big beast league.

The last major split in UK politics was made up of a former Chancellor and Home Secretary (Roy Jenkins), Foreign Secretary (David Owen), Education Secretary (Shirley Williams), Defence Secretary (Bill Rodgers). These were seriously big hitters with a set polices and social democratic ideology. These nonentities are nothing but flotsam in comparison. Also, there was a chance of some of them being deselected by their constituency parties.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:16 pm

Yep, with questionable tactics (Labour) and influxes of new members from UKIP (Conservative)

I've no idea what this means, but it does mean that people notice that both May and Corbyn duopoly isn't as popular as they think it is.

And thats a good thing.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:20 pm

Fair enough, Lancs. I actually have a bit of respect for Soubry . At least she is upfront and honest about why she's resigning, unlike some of the others on the Labour side. I have no respect whatsoever for careerist politicians like Chuka Umunna.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:27 pm

But why did they not just cross the house to the Lib Dems... surely they share common ground?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:28 pm

One thing that is for sure Billy is that I doubt any of them are doing this for their careers.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:22 pm

Umunna is, Lancs. This is the last throw of the dice for him. He was going nowhere in Labour and he knew it. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could spit.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:35 pm

Next election they could all be out. This isn't a career decision.

No one in Labour is going anywhere unless they fully back Jeremy Corbyn.

Course the fact that he demands the loyalty he never gave is just another reason not to trust him.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:35 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:Umunna is, Lancs. This is the last throw of the dice for him. He was going nowhere in Labour and he knew it. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could spit.

Why?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:38 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Next election they could all be out. This isn't a career decision.

No one in Labour is going anywhere unless they fully back Jeremy Corbyn.

Course the fact that he demands the loyalty he never gave is just another reason not to trust him.

His chief strategist is a Russia apologist. That's as good a reason as any to not trust him.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:07 pm

bfcmik wrote:Of the 60 odd MPs who have defected since WW2 not one has stood down as MP so they could have a bye-election. Of the 1 British MEP who has defected since we joined the EU not 1 has stood down so we could have a bye election (even though people didn't vote him in and he was a 'make up the proportion' winner (Nigel Farage)

Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless both resigned their seats when they switched from Conservative to UKIP in 2014; both won their resulting by-elections.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:39 pm

bfcmik wrote:Of the 60 odd MPs who have defected since WW2 not one has stood down as MP so they could have a bye-election. Of the 1 British MEP who has defected since we joined the EU not 1 has stood down so we could have a bye election (even though people didn't vote him in and he was a 'make up the proportion' winner (Nigel Farage)

Sorry " bfcmik " but your post is crap, and totally inaccurate ......Since 1970, which is as far as I go back, at least 4 MP's have taken the honorable decision to resign and hold a by-election in the Commons ...

In early 1973, Labour MP for Lincoln, Dick Taverne resigned from the Labour Party, and founded the " Lincoln Independent Labour Party ", unhappy at the anti-EEC policy of Labour nationally. He won the by-election on 1st March 1973, survived the February 1974 G.E. but was defeated finally in October 1974.

On 3rd June 1982, Bruce Douglas Mann lost a by-election in Mitcham & Morden, for the SDP after his defection from Labour. It was won by the Conservatives ( Angela Rumbold ) , a rare example of a Government taking an opposition seat in a by-election.

Both Conservatives who defected to UKIP in 2014, Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless resigned their seats in Clacton and Rochester, and stood again under their new colours. Both were victorious in the by-elections held in October and November of 2014.

As for MEP's, as far as I understand, there is no mechanism for by-elections. If you resign from the European Parliament, then your place goes to the next person in your original party's Candidate list for your region, the reason why Burnley born Wajid Khan is now an MEP, having replaced Afzal Khan, who resigned to become Labour's Candidate for Manchester Gorton, following the death of Sir Gerald Kaufman. His promotion to being an MEP, in June 2017, is a result of an election fought in May 2014. In terms of defection, you can be elected as a Labour MEP one day, defect to the Conservatives the moment you get to Brussels, and happily sit there for the next five years, should you wish ...

In terms of Nigel Farage, he was one of the 1st three UKIP MEP's elected to the Brussels Parliament in the European Elections of 1999, representing the South East region of the UK, and was relected in 2004, 2009 and 2014. He only resigned from UKIP on 4th December 2018, after the appointment of Tommy Robinson, as an advisor to the new UKIP leader, Gerard Batten.

There are honorable people in Politics, it's just that it doesn't seem very easy to spot them at present !

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:04 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Next election they could all be out.

They should all be out now or at least be willing to put their case to their constituents. But they won't because they think they know best. It's this contempt for the electorate that got us into this mess in the first place.

With regards to Chuka Umunna: The split is a gamble he's willing to take because he has nothing to lose. His parliamentary career was over in the Labour Party. Corbyn and Momentum could be over tomorrow and this would still be the case. If he's out at the next GE, I will bet good money on it that he'll be rewarded with a cushy number in a 'thinktank' somewhere. Trust me, this is how it usually works.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:06 pm

They are all enjoying their 15 minutes of fame, soon to be forgotten.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:23 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:Umunna is, Lancs. This is the last throw of the dice for him. He was going nowhere in Labour and he knew it. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could spit.

" Imploding Turtle " ... Imagine if I were a telegenic, ambitious, young politician and you found out that a commonly used media description of me ( " a latter day British John F Kennedy " ) perhaps, originally came from an entry on Wikipedia, that was traced back to a computer in my office . I would entirely understand if you lost trust in me ....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 69083.html

Kevin Maguire, of the Daily Mirror, pronounced on 5Live today, that Umuna was " very unpopular " amongst Labour MP's . It's well known that despite the Tories having had Prime Ministers who were a bachelor ( Ted Heath ), a jewish born man ( Disraeli ), and two women ( Margaret Thatcher & Theresa May ), the Labour party has only ever elected white, married middle or upper class males ...