Prisons

[Spijed]

The sad fact is they don't.
Long gone are the days that a copper could give you a clip round the ear for wrong doing, and you wouldn't dare tell your dad because he'd clip you as well. I argue all the time with my daughter, who is a social worker, that smacking kids isn't wrong. She turns an odd shade of purple. The fact is my dad belted me a lot, but only when I deserved it. He was my best friend and I miss him greatly. It isn't smacking kids that is wrong, just how you smack them, and why you are smacking them.
Schools are in the same situation. The cane never leaves any lasting scars, mentally, but if it teaches you something it served it's purpose.

There is something feral about some families and communities in modern Britain. I think it started in the the Thatcher era, when so many families lost hope and pride. Not blaming the wicked witch, but it seems like an unforeseen by product of those days. Whatever the reason too many kids continually break the law, while their parents either turn a blind eye, or even encourage them to do it. Society or social responsibility has just gone to the dogs.

And it's because the cane and other similar punishments were allowed to be used in decades past children were abused in their thousands. Teachers and priests were allowed to get away with it as a result.

[Colburn_Claret]

And it's because the cane and other similar punishments were allowed to be used in decades past children were abused in their thousands. Teachers and priests were allowed to get away with it as a result.

Banning the cane hasn't stopped teachers or priests from abusing kids. Abuse is a completely different argument.
If you read my post I stated that it isn't wrong to smack kids, it's the how and why that can be wrong. Smacking kids for sexual pleasure is obviously wrong.

[Imploding Turtle]

Then put it down to Social problems rather than a difference in culture. You're still comparing chalk and cheese.
If you want to work a donkey sometimes you can use a carrot, sometimes you have to use a stick. It's up to the individual donkey.
Norway found a way they say works for them, great, but it doesn't mean that it will work everywhere, or for every different inmate.
I'm all for giving people a second chance, but they only get the one. People who reoffend again and again, need keeping off the streets.
Prison is supposed to be a deterrent. If it doesn't deter then it isn't working. Making prison a holiday camp, or worse still not imposing sentences on people, not because they deserve a chance, but because the prisons are already full is just a route to anarchy.
As is normal on these topics, its always about the prisoners, what about the victims of crime. Why should they be subject to violence, intimidation, theft, criminal damage. Don't they deserve the right to walk around the streets not feeling threatened. Shouldn't they be able to sleep peacefully in bed not frightened that some little prat is going to burgle them, because the system didn't have anywhere to lock them up.

No one can come up with a method of stopping criminality, its impossible, but you can stop crime or greatly reduce it, just lock them up. For as long as it takes for an individual to decide that this isn't worth it. How long that is, is up to the Donkey.

You still haven't explained why it can't work here. All you've done is say that the UK and Norway are different without explaining why those differences mean that what Norway do better than us can't be learned from by us.

And yes, it is about the prisoners, but it's also about the victims too because doing everything we can to make sure that prisoners don't re-offend when they're released means there'll be fewer victims. Obviously.

[Imploding Turtle]

It will surely give the system a lot more time to rehabilitate the little darlings properly?

"Instead of longer sentences maybe we should study the practices of countries that are much more successful than us when it comes to lowering recidivism. Like Norway, for example."

You can't take one country's process and replicate it in to a completely different country's system and expect the same results!

As i've just asked, in what way is Norway so different to the UK that their system can't be learned from by us? And why? We're not all that different to Norway.

It's funny because for years we've heard how we're so similar to Norway that we can copy their deal with the EU to apply it to our entire economy. But we're too different to them when it comes to treating our prisoners and preventing them from re-offending. Funny how selective we are with the importance of our differences, isn't it?

It seems to me that the only culture that's stopping us from applying the Norway model to our prison system is that we have a culture of vengeance that they apparently don't. It's more important to us that criminals are punished as harshly as possible than rehabilitated in a way that means they don't re-offend.

[Spijed]

Smacking kids for sexual pleasure is obviously wrong.

And how do you stop that if corporal punishment were still allowed in schools?

[ClaretFelix]

As i've just asked, in what way is Norway so different to the UK that their system can't be learned from by us? And why? We're not all that different to Norway.

It's funny because for years we've heard how we're so similar to Norway that we can copy their deal with the EU to apply it to our entire economy. But we're too different to them when it comes to treating our prisoners and preventing them from re-offending. Funny how selective we are with the importance of our differences, isn't it?

It seems to me that the only culture that's stopping us from applying the Norway model to our prison system is that we have a culture of vengeance that they apparently don't. It's more important to us that criminals are punished as harshly as possible than rehabilitated in a way that means they don't re-offend.

Perhaps these two could go hand in hand?
Or at least somewhere in the middle?
The current process clearly isn't sustainable

[Billy Balfour]

It's not true that most criminals don't mind going to prison. You only have to read defence submissions at sentencing hearings to realise this.

I'd like to see our prison actually rehabilitating prisoners, well those who can be rehabilitated and aren't a danger to society, but this cost money and govts, regardless of left or right, haven't been willing to fund it appropriately. Also it doesn't play well with the electorate, especially in times of austerity, when the services we use are being cut to the bone. Thing is though, we would save a hell of a lot of money if we could cut repeat offending.

I would built a 'test prison' to incarcerate repeat offenders and see how a real stab, no pun intended, at rehabilitation works. If it doesn't work, well at least we'll know. The present system isn't working. Most criminals are locked up for the crimes they committed to fund their drug addiction. Our prisons are rife with drugs. They come out and it's rinse and repeat - all the while costing the taxpayer untold millions, not to mention the impact their crime have on their victims and society. Like I said, most criminality is to fund drug or alcohol addiction.

[bpgburn]

As i've just asked, in what way is Norway so different to the UK that their system can't be learned from by us? And why? We're not all that different to Norway.

It's funny because for years we've heard how we're so similar to Norway that we can copy their deal with the EU to apply it to our entire economy. But we're too different to them when it comes to treating our prisoners and preventing them from re-offending. Funny how selective we are with the importance of our differences, isn't it?

It seems to me that the only culture that's stopping us from applying the Norway model to our prison system is that we have a culture of vengeance that they apparently don't. It's more important to us that criminals are punished as harshly as possible than rehabilitated in a way that means they don't re-offend.

Is there any instances of another country adopting the Norway model with the same success irrespective of population, results should be relative.

[Imploding Turtle]

[/b]

Perhaps these two could go hand in hand?
Or at least somewhere in the middle?
The current process clearly isn't sustainable

I agree. It's always going to be a balance between punishment and rehab. But one thing Norway does is treat their prisoners with respect, but here we consider that to be giving them a cushy life. The punishment should be excluding them from society, first and foremost. We shouldn't consider inhumane living conditions to be a part of that punishment. For example, how likely are you going to be to accept being rehabilitated if you're angry all the time because you can't get a comfortable nights sleep, or miserable all the time because you live in a shitty, colourless, dirty cell and so does everyone else you spend any time with which makes everyone around you constantly miserable and angry too?

We can do better, but it means treating prisoners like people, and it means ignoring the tabloid newspapers when they tell us to be outraged because a prisoner has access to a ******* TV.

[Imploding Turtle]

Is there any instances of another country adopting the Norway model with the same success irrespective of population, results should be relative.

Is there any instances of them trying to adopt it and failing?

My answer will be the same as yours.

[Dy1geo]

Whilst only 1% of children have been in care, some 25% of the prison population have been in care so having a proper attempt at sorting out the care system first might help.

Having a real go at tackling drugs dependency would also help.

As for punishments I would personally tick a box to pay a bit more income tax to lock up rapists and paedophiles for longer. The lasting damage what these **** bags do to their victims is incomprehendible.

No justice system is perfect but fear of punishment does work in Singapore the punishments are harsh for dropping litter and the results are clean streets.

[Billy Balfour]

As for punishments I would personally tick a box to pay a bit more income tax to lock up rapists and paedophiles for longer. The lasting damage what these **** bags do to their victims is incomprehendible.

I would too. Well said.

[Bacchus]

I went into town earlier to buy a pitchfork but all the shops had sold out. Couldn't work out why that might be until I read this thread.

A large percentage of criminals will always re-offend if the reasons for them turning to crime in the first place aren't addressed. Taking people who have little or no stake in society, locking them up with similar individuals for a few months / years and then throwing them back out into exactly the same situation that they came from (with even fewer opportunities than they had previously) is unlikely to lead to those people making significant changes to their life choices. Building more prisons to lock more of them up for longer is Draconian, expensive and ultimately futile.

Money spent on educating prisoners will be a sound investment if they then go on to be a productive member of society. Whether that is GCSEs, teaching them a trade, teaching them basic skills such as managing their finances, improving their social skills - there are loads of things that can be done to give people a chance and a genuine incentive to turn their lives around. Of course it involves investment and of course it won't work in every case but it will surely pay for itself because the cycle of crime and punishment is an major drain on the economy.

[Spijed]

No justice system is perfect but fear of punishment does work in Singapore the punishments are harsh for dropping litter and the results are clean streets.

But would you want a system where freedom of speech isn't allowed?

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asean/ ... racy-event" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[bpgburn]

Is there any instances of them trying to adopt it and failing?

My answer will be the same as yours.

You haven't answered it though? Surely if was that good everyone would be doing it and sharing the results, have you found any yet?

[Dy1geo]

But would you want a system where freedom of speech isn't allowed?

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asean/ ... racy-event" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously not, freedom of speech should be available to all human beings, the point I was making was that they have draconian punishments for what we perceive to be minor offences and by having such punishments the offences aren’t committed.

As I said no justice system is perfect, fortunately I was brought up right and I have benefited from what the U.K. offers but to many that opportunity is out of reach due to their family background.I know someone who fosters and the poor girl at the age of 10 had never seen the seaside or been to the pictures and had no social skills.

Invest in the care system and in 20 to 30 years we will reap the rewards as a Society

[Colburn_Claret]

And how do you stop that if corporal punishment were still allowed in schools?

The whole point of my statement is you can't, whether corporal punishment is banned or not, so it's irrelevant.
If that were true then you could argue prison is a bad influence on prisoners so let's let everybody free.....

[Jakubclaret]

You haven't answered it though? Surely if was that good everyone would be doing it and sharing the results, have you found any yet?

Because none exist or very few, it would be very unlikely to work here can’t say it wouldn’t because it’s never been trialled & unlikely to, (same as brexit not 100%) the uk is a completely different mixup population wise than Norway.

[Blackrod]

Whilst only 1% of children have been in care, some 25% of the prison population have been in care so having a proper attempt at sorting out the care system first might help.

Having a real go at tackling drugs dependency would also help.

As for punishments I would personally tick a box to pay a bit more income tax to lock up rapists and paedophiles for longer. The lasting damage what these **** bags do to their victims is incomprehendible.

No justice system is perfect but fear of punishment does work in Singapore the punishments are harsh for dropping litter and the results are clean streets.

Couldn’t agree more about Singapore. Sandal wearers are never going to like that though. Thousands get into debt trying to educate themselves so why should criminals get this for free as a reward for crime. Rehabilitation may work for some types of crime. Paedos should agree to castration or be sent to the gallows IMO.

[Imploding Turtle]

You haven't answered it though? Surely if was that good everyone would be doing it and sharing the results, have you found any yet?

I don't know the answer to your question. That was my answer since that would also have been your answer to mine.

And I find fault with your assumption that "if it was that good everyone would be doing it" since it clearly is much better than most countries and yet most countries clearly aren't doing it. Why? Probably for the same reasons we're not doing it - we're more about vengeance than rehab.

[Colburn_Claret]

You still haven't explained why it can't work here. All you've done is say that the UK and Norway are different without explaining why those differences mean that what Norway do better than us can't be learned from by us.

And yes, it is about the prisoners, but it's also about the victims too because doing everything we can to make sure that prisoners don't re-offend when they're released means there'll be fewer victims. Obviously.

It wouldn't work here for all the reasons I've stated but you keep ignoring. Different cultures have people with different mind sets, different attitudes, different customs. You cannot look at the human race and believe that we are all the same, because we aren't. What's looked on as normal for some cultures, is frowned on as barbaric in another. They can't both be right, unless you accept that in different countries people decide for themselves what is right or wrong.
As I've stated many times, you cannot compare Norwegian Society and culture to modern day Britain. For so many obvious reasons. Levels of unemployment, standard of living, standards of education and educational facilities. Health standards, the list just goes on. Until we can change Britain into Norway, the problems we face with criminality are never going to be the same, so the way we deal with it can't be the same.


Now if you don't understand that, so what , everybody else does. Time to go fishing elsewhere

[bpgburn]

I don't know the answer to your question. That was my answer since that would also have been your answer to mine.

And I find fault with your assumption that "if it was that good everyone would be doing it" since it clearly is much better than most countries and yet most countries clearly aren't doing it. Why? Probably for the same reasons we're not doing it - we're more about vengeance than rehab.

I find fault with you putting forward a link to what you believe would work here without anything to back it up.
Maybe other countries have already interrogated the possibility of using it and found it not transferable?

I also find fault with your assumption that the reason we are not doing it is because we're (whoever we are in this very weak sweeping statement), more about vengeance than rehab. Do you have any data to back that up or is it just an opinion you have come to from reading comments of a tiny cross section of the populace on a football board and forming your own conclusion that this country is more about vengeance than rehab?

[Spijed]

Obviously not, freedom of speech should be available to all human beings, the point I was making was that they have draconian punishments for what we perceive to be minor offences and by having such punishments the offences aren’t committed.

As I said no justice system is perfect, fortunately I was brought up right and I have benefited from what the U.K. offers but to many that opportunity is out of reach due to their family background.I know someone who fosters and the poor girl at the age of 10 had never seen the seaside or been to the pictures and had no social skills.

Invest in the care system and in 20 to 30 years we will reap the rewards as a Society

And it only works in Singapore because they don't have free speech!

I'll bet many opponents of the government in Singapore have been locked up for simply 'dropping litter'!

Very convenient.

[Imploding Turtle]

It wouldn't work here for all the reasons I've stated but you keep ignoring. Different cultures have people with different mind sets, different attitudes, different customs. You cannot look at the human race and believe that we are all the same, because we aren't. What's looked on as normal for some cultures, is frowned on as barbaric in another. They can't both be right, unless you accept that in different countries people decide for themselves what is right or wrong.
As I've stated many times, you cannot compare Norwegian Society and culture to modern day Britain. For so many obvious reasons. Levels of unemployment, standard of living, standards of education and educational facilities. Health standards, the list just goes on. Until we can change Britain into Norway, the problems we face with criminality are never going to be the same, so the way we deal with it can't be the same.


Now if you don't understand that, so what , everybody else does. Time to go fishing elsewhere

All you have said is that we have a different culture here and that that's why it won't work. You haven't explained what it is about our difference in culture that means it can't work here. I haven't ignored anything.

"For so many obvious reasons. Levels of unemployment, standard of living, standards of education and educational facilities. Health standards"

These are not cultural differences.

As for accusing me of fishing, i'm doing nothing of the sort. You have provided nothing to support your contention that the Norwegian model dealing with and reforming criminals. All you've done is say that there are cultural differences without explaining what those cultural differences are, and - and this is the important part - why those cultural differences mean their model cannot work here. And until you do this all you're doing is being a contrarian naysayer without anything of substance to support your opinion.

Norway is a secular country with secular justice. They're a free country. Their justice system and laws are very similar to ours. They believe that criminals can be reformed. So why should we not study their system to see if what they're doing can be made to work here?

[Imploding Turtle]

I find fault with you putting forward a link to what you believe would work here without anything to back it up.
Maybe other countries have already interrogated the possibility of using it and found it not transferable?

I also find fault with your assumption that the reason we are not doing it is because we're (whoever we are in this very weak sweeping statement), more about vengeance than rehab. Do you have any data to back that up or is it just an opinion you have come to from reading comments of a tiny cross section of the populace on a football board and forming your own conclusion that this country is more about vengeance than rehab?

I'm not said it would work here. I've said it should be studied to see if it can work here. But I see no reason whatsoever that it can't work here. Except that we're a vengeful, spiteful and cruel population, of course.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

If Norway's justice/prison model was something worth copying we'd probably do it, or copy parts of it.

I suspect very few people on here will have enough actual experience of being, or living, in both countries to explain the differences between the two.

I'm sure the internet will explain it all clearly enough for someone to think they're an expert though

[PWBFC]

Norway is certainly a more ‘equal’ country than the UK which probably helps the crime rate in the first instance.

It’s also a quite rural population, perhaps there’s an element of shame when convicts are reintroduced to their small communities? Everybody knows that they’ve done, it’s less easy to have a cloak of anonymity.

Norway was a poor country before the drilling of oil, perhaps contributing to a quite socialist model we now see. They look after their own, I suspect benefits are quite generous and the population are happy to pay.

That’s all opinion but maybe it’s not the prison System that works but society as a whole.

[Colburn_Claret]

Norway is certainly a more ‘equal’ country than the UK which probably helps the crime rate in the first instance.

It’s also a quite rural population, perhaps there’s an element of shame when convicts are reintroduced to their small communities? Everybody knows that they’ve done, it’s less easy to have a cloak of anonymity.

Norway was a poor country before the drilling of oil, perhaps contributing to a quite socialist model we now see. They look after their own, I suspect benefits are quite generous and the population are happy to pay.

That’s all opinion but maybe it’s not the prison System that works but society as a whole.

I thank you

[bpgburn]

I'm not said it would work here. I've said it should be studied to see if it can work here. But I see no reason whatsoever that it can't work here. Except that we're a vengeful, spiteful and cruel population, of course.

Do you know for sure that it hasn't been studied here or any other country to see if would work? I'll answer that for you, no you don't.

Any data forthcoming that supports your belief we are a vengeful, spiteful and cruel population? Quick clue, same answer as above.

[Imploding Turtle]

Do you know for sure that it hasn't been studied here or any other country to see if would work? I'll answer that for you, no you don't.

Any data forthcoming that supports your belief we are a vengeful, spiteful and cruel population? Quick clue, same answer as above.

Well, my data is anecdotal, and not structured at all, but yes. I do have evidence that we're a vengeful, spiteful cruel population. The OP is the latest example. The eagerness to punish some people without a trial is another example.

What do you suppose the ration is of people outwardly saying "we need to be harsher on criminals" to those saying "we need to find a better way of rehabilitating people".

When was the last time someone lost votes saying that we need to be tougher on criminals? And do you think a politician would gain votes or lose votes if they came out and said "we need lighter, smarter sentences and better rehabilitation for some of our criminals"?

But most of all, just look at the response I've got purely for saying that we should look at the Norway model and see if we can apply it here. The reaction has been extremely negative to such a benign suggestion.

[bpgburn]

Well, my data is anecdotal, and not structured at all, but yes. I do have evidence that we're a vengeful, spiteful cruel population. The OP is the latest example. The eagerness to punish some people without a trial is another example.

What do you suppose the ration is of people outwardly saying "we need to be harsher on criminals" to those saying "we need to find a better way of rehabilitating people".

When was the last time someone lost votes saying that we need to be tougher on criminals? And do you think a politician would gain votes or lose votes if they came out and said "we need lighter, smarter sentences and better rehabilitation for some of our criminals"?

But most of all, just look at the response I've got purely for saying that we should look at the Norway model and see if we can apply it here. The reaction has been extremely negative to such a benign suggestion.

Very weak. Do you have an example of someone saying we need to be tougher on criminals and didn't lose votes, i'd be interested in how you would know what their vote ratio would be saying that against not saying that? Likewise with someone saying we need lighter smarter sentences?
Sounds like straw grasping to me to try and prove your point when it seems to me you have labeled the population of this country vengeful, spiteful and cruel on the comments of a few posters on a MB that don't share your opinion.

[Imploding Turtle]

Very weak. Do you have an example of someone saying we need to be tougher on criminals and didn't lose votes, i'd be interested in how you would know what their vote ratio would be saying that against not saying that? Likewise with someone saying we need lighter smarter sentences?
Sounds like straw grasping to me to try and prove your point when it seems to me you have labeled the population of this country vengeful, spiteful and cruel on the comments of a few posters on a MB that don't share your opinion.

"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime", Tony Blair.

Look. If you think we shouldn't study the Norway model for prisoner reform to see if we can use it here then that's fine, but it's on you to explain why. It's not my job to explain your closed mind opinion.

[Jakubclaret]

It's costly to keep them in jail here. In cases like the above when can we and can not deport?

I think we can depending on they status & rights within the UK, some just abscond & blend in & difficult to detect again if bail is granted, I’m of the opinion that all foreign nationals involved in crime should be deported immediately back to there respective countries & dealt with there, if we are certain they are guilty & issued with a 1 way ticket.

[bpgburn]

"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime", Tony Blair.

Look. If you think we shouldn't study the Norway model for prisoner reform to see if we can use it here then that's fine, but it's on you to explain why. It's not my job to explain your closed mind opinion.

Really? And how can you quantify how many votes Blair lost or gained due to that comment.

Can you show me where I said we shouldn't study the model? I did say one country's model would not necessarily work for another country and for all we know the model has been studied already and rejected so I have nothing to explain, nor do I have a closed mind.

[Imploding Turtle]

Really? And how can you quantify how many votes Blair lost or gained due to that comment.

Can you show me where I said we shouldn't study the model? I did say one country's model would not necessarily work for another country and for all we know the model has been studied already and rejected so I have nothing to explain, nor do I have a closed mind.

I haven't quantified it. Having an opinion about whether or not a populist statement from a politician will gain or lose votes isn't "quantifying" it.

What's your problem with what i've said then? Why are you arguing with me?