Prisons

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Blackrod
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Prisons

Post by Blackrod » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:38 pm

Should we be building more of them ? My wife is watching 3 girls ( hard viewing) and some of the repulsive offenders are now out on licence. There is obviously demand for the space and being out on licence is the preferred route for the authorities. We need to be able to lock criminals up for longer.

Jakubclaret
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Re: Prisons

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:41 pm

Blackrod wrote:Should we be building more of them ? My wife is watching 3 girls ( hard viewing) and some of the repulsive offenders are now out on licence. There is obviously demand for the space and being out on licence is the preferred route for the authorities. We need to be able to lock criminals up for longer.
I agree, it's the obvious 1 money preventing, it's difficult to sidestep politics in some threads such as this.

Fenwick
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Re: Prisons

Post by Fenwick » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:43 pm

The existing prisons are fine. They just need to refurb a suitable building with a strong beam and a platform with a trapdoor beneath it.
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Bosscat
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Re: Prisons

Post by Bosscat » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:45 pm

Fenwick wrote:The existing prisons are fine. They just need to refurb a suitable building with a strong beam and a platform with a trapdoor beneath it.
Or a rewiring... (American style)
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Devils_Advocate
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Re: Prisons

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:48 pm

two words.....Bangladesh
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tim_noone
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Re: Prisons

Post by tim_noone » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:48 pm

Blackrod wrote:Should we be building more of them ? My wife is watching 3 girls ( hard viewing) and some of the repulsive offenders are now out on licence. There is obviously demand for the space and being out on licence is the preferred route for the authorities. We need to be able to lock criminals up for longer.
What turns young kids into repulsive adults? Whats turned the 16yearold boy in Scotland into a repulsive 16year old murderer?

Tricky Trevor
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Re: Prisons

Post by Tricky Trevor » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:50 pm

The latest idea is to scrap all sentences of 6 months or less.
So there goes the short, sharp, shock treatment.
As said money is behind all this nonsense.

GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Prisons

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:52 pm

They need to be harsher.

My ex's brother rings her regularly using a mobile phone in prison.

Spijed
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Re: Prisons

Post by Spijed » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:55 pm

Surely the first step though is to build more factories that can produce lanterns and pitchforks.
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Blackrod
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Re: Prisons

Post by Blackrod » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:56 pm

Maybe produce more sandals instead of importing them.

bfcjg
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Re: Prisons

Post by bfcjg » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:03 pm

People should be terrified of going to prison. Ex prisoners should come out pleading with their associates not to risk what harsh conditions they have just been through.

Jakubclaret
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Re: Prisons

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:07 pm

bfcjg wrote:People should be terrified of going to prison. Ex prisoners should come out pleading with their associates not to risk what harsh conditions they have just been through.
Some heterosexuals are with gay men attempting to rape them, soap on a rope style :lol:

Moorite
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Re: Prisons

Post by Moorite » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:08 pm

We should go old school. If you are convicted a thief then cut off their hand. If they are a rapest then off with the jewels etc

skibum84
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Re: Prisons

Post by skibum84 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:10 pm

Nearly every time I hear a sentence given to a criminal I think it’s too lenient and i’m sure most people I know would agree. But how do we change it? No politiants ever say “vote for me, i’ll Make sure criminals get longer sentences!” If they did, they would get my vote!

fatboy47
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Re: Prisons

Post by fatboy47 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:11 pm

Moorite wrote:We should go old school. If you are convicted a thief then cut off their hand. If they are a rapest then off with the jewels etc

And if they can't spell, ram a dictionary up their backsides.
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basil6345789
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Re: Prisons

Post by basil6345789 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:11 pm

Blackrod wrote:Should we be building more of them ? My wife is watching 3 girls ( hard viewing) and some of the repulsive offenders are now out on licence. There is obviously demand for the space and being out on licence is the preferred route for the authorities. We need to be able to lock criminals up for longer.
It's costly to keep them in jail here. In cases like the above when can we and can not deport?

tim_noone
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Re: Prisons

Post by tim_noone » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:19 pm

basil6345789 wrote:It's costly to keep them in jail here. In cases like the above when can we and can not deport?
I hadnt realised it was a race thred.

Imploding Turtle
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Re: Prisons

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:24 pm

Blackrod wrote:Should we be building more of them ? My wife is watching 3 girls ( hard viewing) and some of the repulsive offenders are now out on licence. There is obviously demand for the space and being out on licence is the preferred route for the authorities. We need to be able to lock criminals up for longer.

What will longer prison terms achieve? I know it'll make a lot people feel better if people spend more time in prison, but does that actually achieve anything?

Instead of longer sentences maybe we should study the practices of countries that are much more successful than us when it comes to lowering recidivism. Like Norway, for example.
https://www.businessinsider.com/why-nor ... ?r=US&IR=T" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Pimlico_Claret
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Re: Prisons

Post by Pimlico_Claret » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:39 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What will longer prison terms achieve? I know it'll make a lot people feel better if people spend more time in prison, but does that actually achieve anything?

Instead of longer sentences maybe we should study the practices of countries that are much more successful than us when it comes to lowering recidivism. Like Norway, for example.
https://www.businessinsider.com/why-nor ... ?r=US&IR=T" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Locking people up at least temporarily prevents them from carrying directly on with their crimes.

Jakubclaret
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Re: Prisons

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:44 pm

The Norway example probably does work in Norway, the UK is a melting pot without blaming immigration but as a fact we've seen lots of people enter this country without really knowing much about there history, instead of being CRB checked like what's usually carried out domestically.
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tiger76
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Re: Prisons

Post by tiger76 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:44 pm

skibum84 wrote:Nearly every time I hear a sentence given to a criminal I think it’s too lenient and i’m sure most people I know would agree. But how do we change it? No politiants ever say “vote for me, i’ll Make sure criminals get longer sentences!” If they did, they would get my vote!
"Tough on crime tough on the causes of crime"-one Anthony Charles Lynton Blair 2006.

Great words shame he never lived up to his promises.
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basil6345789
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Re: Prisons

Post by basil6345789 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:49 pm

tim_noone wrote:I hadnt realised it was a race thred.
Sounds like you're sticking-up for the Rochdale rapists.

GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Prisons

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:49 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:The Norway example probably does work in Norway, the UK is a melting pot without blaming immigration but as a fact we've seen lots of people enter this country without really knowing much about there history, instead of being CRB checked like what's usually carried out domestically.
You're talking about a country that lets in adults who're pretending to be kids without thoroughly checking them first...

No way we'd CRB check people properly.
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Imploding Turtle
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Re: Prisons

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:52 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:The Norway example probably does work in Norway, the UK is a melting pot without blaming immigration but as a fact we've seen lots of people enter this country without really knowing much about there history, instead of being CRB checked like what's usually carried out domestically.

Norway's immigrant population is higher than the UK's.

Would you like to imagine another explanation for why it works there but can't here?
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Imploding Turtle
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Re: Prisons

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:53 pm

basil6345789 wrote:Sounds like you're sticking-up for the Rochdale rapists.

You're bringing your queen out a little early, aren't you?

Jakubclaret
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Re: Prisons

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:54 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:You're talking about a country that lets in adults who're pretending to be kids without thoroughly checking them first...

No way we'd CRB check people properly.
It's true, we don't really know not for certain about there life in there countries beforehand & are reliant on information if available & being sound & consistent, non immigration some sort of record if you was born here & raised here.

Colburn_Claret
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Re: Prisons

Post by Colburn_Claret » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:58 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Norway's immigrant population is higher than the UK's.

Would you like to imagine another explanation for why it works there but can't here?
There are many reasons why, a completely different culture.
What's the unemployment rate in Norway.
How many people in Norway live in run down housing estates.
What's the drinking culture like in Norway, at 8 pound a pint even the Norwegians stay at home.
How about the prospects of finding a job on release from prison.

You're comparing a horse to a donkey and asking why the donkey can't win

Imploding Turtle
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Re: Prisons

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:59 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:There are many reasons why, a completely different culture.
What's the unemployment rate in Norway.
How many people in Norway live in run down housing estates.
What's the drinking culture like in Norway, at 8 pound a pint even the Norwegians stay at home.
How about the prospects of finding a job on release from prison.

You're comparing a horse to a donkey and asking why the donkey can't win

Sounds like we should look to Norway for a lot more ideas than just prisons then, doesn't it?

And maybe you can explain to me why any of those means we can't still look to Norway for lessons on how to handle our prisoners and make sure they're less likely to re-offend? I'm not saying we're going to get down to the same rates as them, but all we need to achieve is better than the way it is now and it'll have been worthwhile. No?

tim_noone
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Re: Prisons

Post by tim_noone » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:31 pm

basil6345789 wrote:Sounds like you're sticking-up for the Rochdale rapists.
No... was replying to repulsive offenders in the opening post ......thought it was a generalisation tbh.

Colburn_Claret
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Re: Prisons

Post by Colburn_Claret » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Sounds like we should look to Norway for a lot more ideas than just prisons then, doesn't it?

And maybe you can explain to me why any of those means we can't still look to Norway for lessons on how to handle our prisoners and make sure they're less likely to re-offend? I'm not saying we're going to get down to the same rates as them, but all we need to achieve is better than the way it is now and it'll have been worthwhile. No?
It said in your article how low the crime rate is. They don't leave prison to go back to the ghetto or housing estate. They don't go back to the gang culture they left, because for most of them there isn't one. They don't go back to sleeping all day then playing the PS4 all night. As I said it's a different culture, and there isn't a magic button to make Britain like Norway.

All you can do is deal with what you've got.

Jakubclaret
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Re: Prisons

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:36 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:It said in your article how low the crime rate is. They don't leave prison to go back to the ghetto or housing estate. They don't go back to the gang culture they left, because for most of them there isn't one. They don't go back to sleeping all day then playing the PS4 all night. As I said it's a different culture, and there isn't a magic button to make Britain like Norway.

All you can do is deal with what you've got.
It’s a complete contrast to what we have here that’s for sure, I’d jump at the chance to move there if it was possible.

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Re: Prisons

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:42 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:It’s a completely different contrast to what we have here that’s for sure, I’d jump at the chance to move there if it was possible.

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Re: Prisons

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:43 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:It said in your article how low the crime rate is. They don't leave prison to go back to the ghetto or housing estate. They don't go back to the gang culture they left, because for most of them there isn't one. They don't go back to sleeping all day then playing the PS4 all night. As I said it's a different culture, and there isn't a magic button to make Britain like Norway.

All you can do is deal with what you've got.
I agree that the culture is different, i'm just confused as to why that's relevant. A criminal is a criminal. Sure, a gang member might not be less likely to re-offend (although i'm not sure why that would be true) but there aren't only gang members in our prisons. Even if all the gang members in prison re-offended at the same rates they do now, there are tens of thousands of non gang members, and there's no reason a better prison system for them can't reduce their re-offending rates.

You've not made a counter argument. All you've really said is "it's a different culture", but so are countries with longer prison sentences than ours, and more prisons than ours, yet you haven't argued against that under the same logic that they're "different cultures". Why not?

Greenmile
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Re: Prisons

Post by Greenmile » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:58 am

Jakubclaret wrote:It’s a complete contrast to what we have here that’s for sure, I’d jump at the chance to move there if it was possible.
You realise that would make you an immigrant (and therefore, presumably, responsible for everything that’s wrong with Norwegian society), don’t you?
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Greenmile
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Re: Prisons

Post by Greenmile » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:01 am

Moorite wrote:We should go old school. If you are convicted a thief then cut off their hand. If they are a rapest then off with the jewels etc
Sounds like you want to introduce shariah law to the UK.
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Jakubclaret
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Re: Prisons

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:43 am

Greenmile wrote:You realise that would make you an immigrant (and therefore, presumably, responsible for everything that’s wrong with Norwegian society), don’t you?
They wouldn't have me thats the difference, as opposed to this country, who pretty accept everybody at the drop of hat with scarcely doing any background research.

Imploding Turtle
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Re: Prisons

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:59 am

Greenmile wrote:Sounds like you want to introduce shariah law to the UK.
The right-wing extremists have always had a lot in common with Islamic extremists.

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Re: Prisons

Post by Quickenthetempo » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:21 am

tiger76 wrote:"Tough on crime tough on the causes of crime"-one Anthony Charles Lynton Blair 2006.

Great words shame he never lived up to his promises.
He made things 10x worse for the country allowing every single court case to have an appeal. Great for his lawyer wife and friends as the workload and pay packet doubled, but not so for the Great British people.

Someone mentions the short shock of a small time in prison, it sounds like they get prepared for that in schools now. Lockdowns and isolations are used as a key weapon against pupils bad behaviour.

The prison system seems to be on lock down quite a lot due to staff shortages.

Imploding Turtle
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Re: Prisons

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:54 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:He made things 10x worse for the country allowing every single court case to have an appeal. Great for his lawyer wife and friends as the workload and pay packet doubled, but not so for the Great British people.

Someone mentions the short shock of a small time in prison, it sounds like they get prepared for that in schools now. Lockdowns and isolations are used as a key weapon against pupils bad behaviour.

The prison system seems to be on lock down quite a lot due to staff shortages.
Why shouldn't people be allowed to appeal their convictions?
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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Prisons

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:58 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:He made things 10x worse for the country allowing every single court case to have an appeal. Great for his lawyer wife and friends as the workload and pay packet doubled, but not so for the Great British people.

Someone mentions the short shock of a small time in prison, it sounds like they get prepared for that in schools now. Lockdowns and isolations are used as a key weapon against pupils bad behaviour.

The prison system seems to be on lock down quite a lot due to staff shortages.
Appeals aren't the issue and everyone should be allowed the right to appeal their sentence..

Cherie Blair is a human rights lawyer isn't she?
That's where the potential collusion was between them and what laws were introduced.

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Re: Prisons

Post by Quickenthetempo » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:14 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Why shouldn't people be allowed to appeal their convictions?
The new evidence appeal was fine.

It's just chancing it for a lesser sentence these days. At a great cost to the tax payer.

If you need an appeal for every case you have to admit the system is broken in the first place.

Imploding Turtle
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Re: Prisons

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:30 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:The new evidence appeal was fine.

It's just chancing it for a lesser sentence these days. At a great cost to the tax payer.

If you need an appeal for every case you have to admit the system is broken in the first place.
That's fair enough

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Re: Prisons

Post by peter_nobles_fringe » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:47 am

There is no respect any more these days, no discipline in schools, chavvy tv programs, kids having kids etc then you add in social media bookface etc online porn. Just where do a lot of kids get their moral compass from?

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Re: Prisons

Post by Colburn_Claret » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:58 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I agree that the culture is different, i'm just confused as to why that's relevant. A criminal is a criminal. Sure, a gang member might not be less likely to re-offend (although i'm not sure why that would be true) but there aren't only gang members in our prisons. Even if all the gang members in prison re-offended at the same rates they do now, there are tens of thousands of non gang members, and there's no reason a better prison system for them can't reduce their re-offending rates.

You've not made a counter argument. All you've really said is "it's a different culture", but so are countries with longer prison sentences than ours, and more prisons than ours, yet you haven't argued against that under the same logic that they're "different cultures". Why not?
Then put it down to Social problems rather than a difference in culture. You're still comparing chalk and cheese.
If you want to work a donkey sometimes you can use a carrot, sometimes you have to use a stick. It's up to the individual donkey.
Norway found a way they say works for them, great, but it doesn't mean that it will work everywhere, or for every different inmate.
I'm all for giving people a second chance, but they only get the one. People who reoffend again and again, need keeping off the streets.
Prison is supposed to be a deterrent. If it doesn't deter then it isn't working. Making prison a holiday camp, or worse still not imposing sentences on people, not because they deserve a chance, but because the prisons are already full is just a route to anarchy.
As is normal on these topics, its always about the prisoners, what about the victims of crime. Why should they be subject to violence, intimidation, theft, criminal damage. Don't they deserve the right to walk around the streets not feeling threatened. Shouldn't they be able to sleep peacefully in bed not frightened that some little prat is going to burgle them, because the system didn't have anywhere to lock them up.

No one can come up with a method of stopping criminality, its impossible, but you can stop crime or greatly reduce it, just lock them up. For as long as it takes for an individual to decide that this isn't worth it. How long that is, is up to the Donkey.
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Hipper
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Re: Prisons

Post by Hipper » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:00 am

The other day there was a TV programme called 'The Death of Aimee Spencer'. She died as a result of drugs and falling out of a window at a drugs party held by a fellow who, it became clear, was a drug user and supplier. At the time of his arrest after the fall, he was intoxicated and didn't come back down to earth for a number of hours.

Over the months of the police inquiries it seemed likely that, apart from supplying the drugs, he had no part in her death. He was though found guilty of supplying drugs and given a two year suspended sentence. At this point he had cleaned himself up and was making efforts to go 'straight'. However, there was an appeal that claimed the sentence was too lenient and this led to him receiving a three year sentence. The family, if I recall, was pleased with that, even though Aimee was a willing drug user.

I ask, 'was this prison sentence in everyone's best interest?'

If he had cleaned himself up, surely the worst place for him to go would be prison, and, so we are told, the drug culture there. By putting him in prison are we not risking sending him back to drug use? If so when he comes out he will continue to be a menace to others. He was no longer a danger to society. There is of course a requirement for punishment, but a suspended sentence means if he was caught with drugs again he would get prison. Surely it would be better in this case, for him and everyone else, to encourage him to stay clean?

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Re: Prisons

Post by Colburn_Claret » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:09 am

peter_nobles_fringe wrote:There is no respect any more these days, no discipline in schools, chavvy tv programs, kids having kids etc then you add in social media bookface etc online porn. Just where do a lot of kids get their moral compass from?
The sad fact is they don't.
Long gone are the days that a copper could give you a clip round the ear for wrong doing, and you wouldn't dare tell your dad because he'd clip you as well. I argue all the time with my daughter, who is a social worker, that smacking kids isn't wrong. She turns an odd shade of purple. The fact is my dad belted me a lot, but only when I deserved it. He was my best friend and I miss him greatly. It isn't smacking kids that is wrong, just how you smack them, and why you are smacking them.
Schools are in the same situation. The cane never leaves any lasting scars, mentally, but if it teaches you something it served it's purpose.

There is something feral about some families and communities in modern Britain. I think it started in the the Thatcher era, when so many families lost hope and pride. Not blaming the wicked witch, but it seems like an unforeseen by product of those days. Whatever the reason too many kids continually break the law, while their parents either turn a blind eye, or even encourage them to do it. Society or social responsibility has just gone to the dogs.

Hipper
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Re: Prisons

Post by Hipper » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:20 am

There's too many generalisations here.

Of course there are the undisciplined rabble. But there are others that have got it right. How does one lot become 'good' and another not? It was not done by smacking etc..

ClaretFelix
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Re: Prisons

Post by ClaretFelix » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:28 am

Whilst I acknowledge the desire to rehabilitate those given prison sentences, the fact of the matter is, the re offending rates are ridiculous.
This doesn't offer any peace of mind for the victims of crime.

I thought the original idea behind sending someone to prison was for it to be a punishment?
This should be at the forefront of any judges/magistrates mind, before any of the luvvie cuddly crap which, evidence suggests, does not appear to have any impact at all on the mindset of offenders.

Hipper
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Re: Prisons

Post by Hipper » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:32 am

Punishment, deterrent, rehabilitation.

bpgburn
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Re: Prisons

Post by bpgburn » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:53 am

[quote="Imploding Turtle"]What will longer prison terms achieve? I know it'll make a lot people feel better if people spend more time in prison, but does that actually achieve anything?

It will surely give the system a lot more time to rehabilitate the little darlings properly?

"Instead of longer sentences maybe we should study the practices of countries that are much more successful than us when it comes to lowering recidivism. Like Norway, for example."

You can't take one country's process and replicate it in to a completely different country's system and expect the same results!

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