Bolton

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# 1
NL Claret
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Re: Bolton

Postby NL Claret » Thu May 09, 2019 12:36 pm

Thought the recent posts would be about Bolton Wanderers / Ken Anderson / administration/ points deducted/ embargoes and how to badly manage a football club.

# 2
Hipper
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Re: Bolton

Postby Hipper » Thu May 09, 2019 1:01 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Which bog are we flushing them down then?


Reminds me of this story:

The BBC did a programme on leeches and when it was done, no-one knew what to do with the live animals. Someone suggested flushing them down the toilet, so that's what they did. The Commissioner needed to go for a dump and - well perhaps you can guess what happened!

# 3
keith1879
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Re: Bolton

Postby keith1879 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:08 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:The last line is the problem for me though

At what stage do we go "right, thats too much of a risk"?


Thankfully "we" (on this forum) don't make that decision...

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Lancasterclaret
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Re: Bolton

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu May 09, 2019 1:12 pm

keith1879 wrote:Thankfully "we" (on this forum) don't make that decision...


Jesus, that would be a terrible thought if we did!

But you can't ignore fan input here. There are still Bolton fans who think they were running a sustainable operation, just like there are Burnley fans who think we have a huge dry powder store.

Its not a lot, and we do appear to have one of the more sensible fan bases in terms of what we can or can't achieve but its still enough to whinge and moan about pretty much everything.

# 5
Dougall
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Re: Bolton

Postby Dougall » Thu May 09, 2019 1:14 pm

andyh wrote: What I learned is that Sean can see stuff I can’t. .

This.
The gulf in perception between pretty much ANY professional in football and most of us is huge.
There are some posters on here whose insight into formations/tactics is - to me - illuminating, but most of us (in my view) watch football, think we know a bit BECAUSE we watch football and played it, but spend our time, really, guessing!
I'd love it if the club had enough money to buy - and pay - loads of superstars and win the league, but it doesn't so I don't want us to chase superstars because I like the way the manager has created a team that reflects the club and the town of Burnley. pretty honest (but not goody-goody), hard working, focussed, never giving up etc.
Our experience of (the nearest we got to) superstars in recent years hasn't been all sweetness and light, has it? Wrighty did well but certainly doesn't love the club. Gazza?! Chris Waddle?( I loved some of his football whilst he played for us, but he didn't really fit the club.)
I just can't help but trust Sean Dyche! :roll:
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NRC
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Re: Bolton

Postby NRC » Thu May 09, 2019 1:37 pm

"just like there are Burnley fans who think we have a huge dry powder store."

:shock: we don't?

# 7
Dark Cloud
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Re: Bolton

Postby Dark Cloud » Thu May 09, 2019 1:43 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:The last line is the problem for me though

At what stage do we go "right, thats too much of a risk"?

Spot on Lancaster and thankfully a decision for Garlic, Kilby, Dyche, Rigg et al and not me as I definitely don't really know the answer. Meanwhile, I can simply concentrate on the really important stuff, like enjoying a few real ales whilst they make up their minds.

# 8
Spijed
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Re: Bolton

Postby Spijed » Thu May 09, 2019 1:50 pm

Dark Cloud wrote:I do think the reality is that we will drop back down at some stage. After all I'm sure Bolton, Rovers, Sheff Wednesday and others going back a few years and then more latterly Swansea, Stoke, West Brom, Villa etc all thought they were totally secure and planned accordingly, but were very, very wrong and they are arguably bigger clubs than us. We have to be realistic and Bolton is a wonderful model of how NOT to approach Premier League football unless you're one of the big 4/5. Eye catching, marquee signings using next year's TV money (or borrowed money) are all well and good for those top, top clubs, but anybody else only needs one or two to go wrong and suddenly you're in the poo. I am firmly in the camp that believes we actually didn't spend enough last summer and that this season we've got away with it, just. So we do need to SENSIBLY invest rather more this window, but we still have to walk that very narrow tight rope. Plus, we as fans have to be aware that the more we earn as a club in the Premier League, the more things tend to cost. Players cost more in fees and wages and just being in the PL brings its own costs e.g. £12 million? for disabled facilities and so on. We have to target players who will fit in with us, money wise and playing wise, but I think if we don't accept that we will need to spend rather more we'll be dropping down sooner rather than later.


Totally disagree. We haven't got away with anything as we fully deserve to stay up. Once Heaton regained his place in goal it's been clear that our squad is far too good to go down with the form tables saying as much, and our current form is actually good enough to be fighting for a Europa league place.

Because of the way we have done things to date we are arguably the most successful club anywhere in football when you look at our budget compared to what we have achieved, and it works very well for us. We are not going to win the league but we've manged to play in Europe, all on a shoestring in comparison to all those other clubs fighting for 7th place.

It's a great achievement when you look at teams like Cardiff and Huddersfield who simply haven't been able to compete at this level, yet we have survived with plenty to spare this season, despite the daunting last few fixtures.
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# 9
Dark Cloud
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Re: Bolton

Postby Dark Cloud » Thu May 09, 2019 2:03 pm

Spijed wrote:Totally disagree. We haven't got away with anything as we fully deserve to stay up. Once Heaton regained his place in goal it's been clear that our squad is far too good to go down with the form tables saying as much, and our current form is actually good enough to be fighting for a Europa league place.

Because of the way we have done things to date we are arguably the most successful club anywhere in football when you look at our budget compared to what we have achieved, and it works very well for us. We are not going to win the league but we've manged to play in Europe, all on a shoestring in comparison to all those other clubs fighting for 7th place.

It's a great achievement when you look at teams like Cardiff and Huddersfield who simply haven't been able to compete at this level, yet we have survived with plenty to spare this season, despite the daunting last few fixtures.

I definitely get what you're saying and like a lot of people I can't seem to make up my mind about this season. It was clearly a season of two halves! Up to and including Boxing Day was absolute rubbish (MOSTLY - but I was at Spurs away and we played much more like Burnley and lost very narrowly, and we did beat Brighton and Bournemouth fairly comfortably, so it wasn't all total pants) and since Boxing Day, fantastic form and excellent results (MOSTLY - but Leicester home was poor, Newcastle away was poor, Everton last week wasn't great and there were some others, so not all brilliant) Which half of the season truly reflects us? I don't know. BUT I fear if we have an Autumn like last season and are in the bottom 3 and looking good to drop at Christmas again, you can't bank on another amazing turnaround and suddenly finding Europa league form from basically nowhere. The point is we do need to strengthen in certain areas, but as always for us, we need to strengthen within the confines of what we can realistically spend and afford. Not easy!

# 10
Chester Perry
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Re: Bolton

Postby Chester Perry » Thu May 09, 2019 6:17 pm

So they cannot even get going into Admin organised and agreed - Anderson and the Davis Family file for Admin separately

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2019/may/club-statement3/

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Darnhill Claret
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Re: Bolton

Postby Darnhill Claret » Thu May 09, 2019 9:11 pm

It’s too much of a financial risk when we operate over and above our means. We have to ensure a financial trading profit season on season or it will be like a snowball rolling down Mt Everest. We have to bring players through and find value for money new recruits. Players that will accept our wage structure. Players that want to play for Sean Dyche and Burnley FC. Dyche is steadily building his reputation and that in turn builds our club’s reputation, in the here and now.
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Nonayforever
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Re: Bolton

Postby Nonayforever » Thu May 09, 2019 10:16 pm

Chester Perry wrote:So they cannot even get going into Admin organised and agreed - Anderson and the Davis Family file for Admin separately

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2019/may/club-statement3/


At least he has now said, allbeit far too late, something that makes sense and what appears to be a meaningful apology.

# 13
dsr
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Re: Bolton

Postby dsr » Fri May 10, 2019 7:00 am

There are three things that the League should do, and should have done years ago, to help stop this sort of situation developing.

1. Ban insolvent clubs from signing players apart from free transfers on a notional "minimum wage". This would stop owners like Davies leading Bolton right into Dickie's meadow. Owners could give money to the clubs by way of share capital, like Venky's do, but they couldn't lend it.

2. Set the rules somehow that ensures that money owed to owners, and other moneys put it purely to pay running costs, are unsecured and rank below all other debts when it comes to insolvency. (There may be legal difficulties with this one.)

3. Bring back the old rule that said (way back when) that a club that doesn't pay all its debts - not just football debts, but all debts - is chucked out of the league. None of this administration fraud on the smaller creditors. A rule that says Man United must be paid in full and they must take the money off Joe the pie seller to pay them, is outrageous.
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Spijed
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Re: Bolton

Postby Spijed » Fri May 10, 2019 7:45 am

dsr wrote:There are three things that the League should do, and should have done years ago, to help stop this sort of situation developing.

1. Ban insolvent clubs from signing players apart from free transfers on a notional "minimum wage". This would stop owners like Davies leading Bolton right into Dickie's meadow. Owners could give money to the clubs by way of share capital, like Venky's do, but they couldn't lend it.

2. Set the rules somehow that ensures that money owed to owners, and other moneys put it purely to pay running costs, are unsecured and rank below all other debts when it comes to insolvency. (There may be legal difficulties with this one.)

3. Bring back the old rule that said (way back when) that a club that doesn't pay all its debts - not just football debts, but all debts - is chucked out of the league. None of this administration fraud on the smaller creditors. A rule that says Man United must be paid in full and they must take the money off Joe the pie seller to pay them, is outrageous.


And your last point is the reason why Leicester city were able to keep their brand new ground, whilst local businesses went bust. They built the ground knowing full well they couldn't pay for it.

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aggi
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Re: Bolton

Postby aggi » Fri May 10, 2019 11:28 am

Darnhill Claret wrote:It’s too much of a financial risk when we operate over and above our means. We have to ensure a financial trading profit season on season or it will be like a snowball rolling down Mt Everest. We have to bring players through and find value for money new recruits. Players that will accept our wage structure. Players that want to play for Sean Dyche and Burnley FC. Dyche is steadily building his reputation and that in turn builds our club’s reputation, in the here and now.


The question is obviously what that financial profit needs to be. If we'd made a profit of £20m (before tax) would that have been sufficient, or maybe £30m?

I don't think many people are saying that we should be making losses, the question is whether the current level of profit is required.
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Chester Perry
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Re: Bolton

Postby Chester Perry » Fri May 10, 2019 11:31 am

This is a good indictment of the EFL and it's Chief Exec from a Bolton fan

https://twitter.com/Supawhite/status/11 ... 6272118786

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Chester Perry
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Re: Bolton

Postby Chester Perry » Fri May 10, 2019 11:46 am

aggi wrote:The question is obviously what that financial profit needs to be. If we'd made a profit of £20m (before tax) would that have been sufficient, or maybe £30m?

I don't think many people are saying that we should be making losses, the question is whether the current level of profit is required.


I believe we take the sensible approach - we budget each season as if we will finish 19th or 20th (17th at best), players and coaching staff share the upswing with bonuses.

As the years of staying in the League mount are biggest problems will be:

Wages - established Premier League players will want wages closer to the mean (even the mean of the 14 is not really within our grasp)

Amortisation - The more players we buy (and the higher the prices we pay) the more we pay in Amortisation - if we spend £40m this summer for players on 4 year contracts that is £10m a year amortisation - which you may think is ok, but that would take us close to £40m a year in Amortisation costs - add that to wages and we have eaten up all the PL earnings (and some)

Infrastructure - not including depreciation
In this I will include the Academy (we now know they intend to go Cat 1 in 2020) Staffing for the Academy will outgrow the space it has and will need additional space that will need to be developed.
There is a push from fans to redevelop the ground and all evidence points to a new Cricket Field stand likely to cost well north of £70m. Merely upgrading facilities in the way we have so far on the Turf has seen us spend around £5m a year
All that requires maintenance - I would imagine our pitches alone have £1m+ a year spent on them
Last edited by Chester Perry on Fri May 10, 2019 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Goobs
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Re: Bolton

Postby Goobs » Fri May 10, 2019 11:47 am

NRC wrote:"just like there are Burnley fans who think we have a huge dry powder store."

:shock: we don't?

No We had to destroy it when we were building the new corner stands as it was stopping us being able to put the foundations in. Please keep up.

# 19
RalphCoatesComb
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Re: Bolton

Postby RalphCoatesComb » Fri May 10, 2019 2:19 pm

Without Sean Dyche and our current Board, we could well be where Horwich Wanderers are now.

SuBo could have been right, only 10 years behind them :o :shock: :(

# 20
Royboyclaret
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Re: Bolton

Postby Royboyclaret » Fri May 10, 2019 10:05 pm

Seems like the next episode in the comedy capers at Bolton is taking shape.

Shandong Ludeng, a Chinese power company, are considering a second takeover bid which will include Sam Allardyce returning to the dug-out alongside former Bolton sports scientist Mark Taylor.

Apparently they are unfazed by the £41.6m debt involved and are ready to make their move following administration.

It could only happen at Bolton.

# 21
bfcjg
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Re: Bolton

Postby bfcjg » Fri May 10, 2019 10:20 pm

I doubt BFS has ever had a brown envelope full of Renminbi/Yuan

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Clarets4me
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Re: Bolton

Postby Clarets4me » Fri May 10, 2019 11:10 pm

Chester Perry wrote:I believe we take the sensible approach - we budget each season as if we will finish 19th or 20th (17th at best), players and coaching staff share the upswing with bonuses.

As the years of staying in the League mount are biggest problems will be:

Wages - established Premier League players will want wages closer to the mean (even the mean of the 14 is not really within our grasp)

Amortisation - The more players we buy (and the higher the prices we pay) the more we pay in Amortisation - if we spend £40m this summer for players on 4 year contracts that is £10m a year amortisation - which you may think is ok, but that would take us close to £40m a year in Amortisation costs - add that to wages and we have eaten up all the PL earnings (and some)

Infrastructure - not including depreciation
In this I will include the Academy (we now know they intend to go Cat 1 in 2020) Staffing for the Academy will outgrow the space it has and will need additional space that will need to be developed.
There is a push from fans to redevelop the ground and all evidence points to a new Cricket Field stand likely to cost well north of £70m. Merely upgrading facilities in the way we have so far on the Turf has seen us spend around £5m a year
All that requires maintenance - I would imagine our pitches alone have £1m+ a year spent on them


It may be confusing to some to say that we pay " amortisation costs " , strictly speaking, we don't . They are an accounting measure, designed to reduce the value of ( or write off ) a player or assets to the Club over the period of it's useful life...

For example, if we sign, a player on a 3 year deal for £15,000,000, then amortisation will be £5,000,0000 in the 1st year, and the same in the second and third years. If no new contract is agreed after 3 years, his value to Burnley FC is £0, as he is free to sign elsewhere.

However on ground improvements, or Gawthorpe etc, this expenditue will subsequently attract amortisation of 5% per year, as apart for maintainance and repair, it might be assumed to last 20 years...

My point is, that it is an accounting measure, not further physical funds to be paid from cash-flow !
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Vegas Claret
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Re: Bolton

Postby Vegas Claret » Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 pm

finally gone into administration

# 24
Spijed
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Re: Bolton

Postby Spijed » Mon May 13, 2019 4:09 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:finally gone into administration


Hopefully followed by liquidation

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Chester Perry
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Re: Bolton

Postby Chester Perry » Mon May 13, 2019 4:17 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:finally gone into administration



If they would have done this in March - they would now be under new ownership and ready to start next season on 0 points rather than the minis 12+ they will do

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Vegas Claret
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Re: Bolton

Postby Vegas Claret » Mon May 13, 2019 4:18 pm

Chester Perry wrote:If they would have done this in March - they would now be under new ownership and ready to start next season on 0 points rather than the minis 12+ they will do


yep yet another crazy decision

# 27
mdd2
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Re: Bolton

Postby mdd2 » Mon May 13, 2019 4:48 pm

Not necessarily- teams have had the 12 points held over so that there is some meaning to the punishment. If the team is nailed on for relegation deducting 12 points before relegation is no punishment

# 28
claret wizard
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Re: Bolton

Postby claret wizard » Mon May 13, 2019 4:49 pm

They need someone to come along and take this on yet. They've 8 contracted players, an administrator to be appointed, all their money making assists gone and a minimum 12 pt fine and potentially a 20 pt one. League 2 beckons.
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bfcmik
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Re: Bolton

Postby bfcmik » Mon May 13, 2019 6:06 pm

claret wizard wrote:They need someone to come along and take this on yet. They've 8 contracted players, an administrator to be appointed, all their money making assists gone and a minimum 12 pt fine and potentially a 20 pt one. League 2 beckons.
They just want to join the all 4 division titles club

# 30
bfcjg
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Re: Bolton

Postby bfcjg » Mon May 13, 2019 6:56 pm

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tiger76
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Re: Bolton

Postby tiger76 » Tue May 14, 2019 12:04 am

claret wizard wrote:They need someone to come along and take this on yet. They've 8 contracted players, an administrator to be appointed, all their money making assists gone and a minimum 12 pt fine and potentially a 20 pt one. League 2 beckons.


They'll be playing Chorley soon at this rate,great news for the other League 1 clubs,including Accy,that's one relegation place sealed.

It's crazy how the situation was allowed to become so extreme,and if reports are correct,Bolton won't be the last club entering administration.

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RammyClaret61
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Re: Bolton

Postby RammyClaret61 » Tue May 14, 2019 12:54 am

bfcmik wrote:They just want to join the all 4 division titles club


That’s going to be difficult from where they currently sit. Can’t see them winning the Premier League anytime soon. Having never won the First Division!!

# 33
ecc
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Re: Bolton

Postby ecc » Tue May 14, 2019 11:19 am

BWFC have set up a food bank for the staff.

Given the huge money in foorball today this is beyond scandalous.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/17 ... aid-staff/

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bfcmik
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Re: Bolton

Postby bfcmik » Tue May 14, 2019 12:20 pm

RammyClaret61 wrote:That’s going to be difficult from where they currently sit. Can’t see them winning the Premier League anytime soon. Having never won the First Division!!

I just assumed that a club of their stature must have done so at some time. Just goes to show that having a ?big? club reputation is definitely not based on being successful.

# 35
Chester Perry
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Re: Bolton

Postby Chester Perry » Tue May 14, 2019 12:22 pm

Martin Ziegler points to the issue many are wanting to see - the accounts and how much Ken took out of the club in 2017/18 (never mind this year

https://twitter.com/martynziegler/statu ... 9655734272

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Rowls
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Re: Bolton

Postby Rowls » Tue May 14, 2019 1:13 pm

summitclaret wrote:How far away ( from us ) are they?

bob-the-scutter wrote:24.6 miles


Fun fact:

If they're 10 years ahead you have to restrict yourself to 0.000280821918 miles per hour.

# 37
AlargeClaret
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Re: Bolton

Postby AlargeClaret » Tue May 14, 2019 1:38 pm

ecc wrote:BWFC have set up a food bank for the staff.

Given the huge money in foorball today this is beyond scandalous.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/17 ... aid-staff/



God almighty ! I seriously thought this was a joke absolutely beyond belief

# 38
ClaretDiver
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Re: Bolton

Postby ClaretDiver » Tue May 14, 2019 3:07 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:God almighty ! I seriously thought this was a joke absolutely beyond belief


Bloody hell!!!!

# 39
exilecanada
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Re: Bolton

Postby exilecanada » Tue May 14, 2019 4:02 pm

ecc wrote:BWFC have set up a food bank for the staff.

Given the huge money in foorball today this is beyond scandalous.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/17 ... aid-staff/



That is really incredible! This should go as a reminder how fortunate we are to support a club run as a business, not as someone’s play-toy. I remember Garlick saying after Dyche’s first promotion season…..to paraphrase…..’we will NOT put this club in financial jeopardy’. So far, true to his word, long may that continue!

# 40
randomclaret2
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Re: Bolton

Postby randomclaret2 » Tue May 14, 2019 4:08 pm

PNE have donated vouchers to help staff at Bolton buy food

# 41
Royboyclaret
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Re: Bolton

Postby Royboyclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 4:20 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Martin Ziegler points to the issue many are wanting to see - the accounts and how much Ken took out of the club in 2017/18 (never mind this year

https://twitter.com/martynziegler/statu ... 9655734272


A couple of observations :-

The £525,000 that Anderson paid himself actually relates to the '16/'17 season when the justification was a promotion bonus and consultancy fees. Of course the accounts to Jun'18 have still to be filed with Companies House and you have to wonder exactly what information will be revealed behind those. Anderson even had his wife installed a director for a brief period so goodness knows the costs involved there and then of course there's the current financial year with only two months yet to run.

Interesting that David Rubin & Partners have been appointed as administrators, the very same company that oversaw the administration at Coventry City recently and hardly covered themselves in glory with that one. Coventry were sold to a sub-company of SISU who themselves were responsible for the financial mess there in the first place.

The hope has to be that a number of revelations will become apparent over the next two weeks alongside a further 8 point deduction from the start of next season for not fulfilling the fixture last week. That with the 12 point punishment for going into administration should ensure they face an impossible task in League One next season. Perhaps even relegation to League Two awaits them.

# 42
Chester Perry
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Re: Bolton

Postby Chester Perry » Tue May 14, 2019 4:49 pm

Of course under SCMP (FFP for Leagues 1 and 2) rules any new owner could chuck a fortune at the club (even as sponsorship) and get promoted with prem quality players (via play offs most likely) and that would be all right in the EFL's eyes. They would struggle in the Championship though because those rules are different and money would need to be turned into equity

# 43
ecc
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Re: Bolton

Postby ecc » Tue May 14, 2019 8:15 pm

Isn't there an obligation to file the accounts by a certain date?

# 44
RalphCoatesComb
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Re: Bolton

Postby RalphCoatesComb » Tue May 14, 2019 8:49 pm

ecc wrote:BWFC have set up a food bank for the staff.

Given the huge money in football today this is beyond scandalous.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/17 ... aid-staff/


Just when you thought Horwich Wanderers were just a joke.

This is really SAD ! :shock: :o :?

# 45
Burnleyareback2
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Re: Bolton

Postby Burnleyareback2 » Tue May 14, 2019 9:07 pm

Sounds like it was Prestin who made the donation.

Although I liked the comments on Twitter, denying it was Leeds - as they would of done more

# 46
aggi
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Re: Bolton

Postby aggi » Tue May 14, 2019 10:05 pm

ecc wrote:Isn't there an obligation to file the accounts by a certain date?


Nine months after the year end, so 31 March in this case.

# 47
Chester Perry
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Re: Bolton

Postby Chester Perry » Tue May 14, 2019 10:31 pm

aggi wrote:Nine months after the year end, so 31 March in this case.


Sheffield Wednesday, Bury and Notts County in the same position

# 48
bfcjg
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Re: Bolton

Postby bfcjg » Tue May 14, 2019 10:56 pm

I've donated to the food bank. A load of humble pies.

# 49
ecc
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Re: Bolton

Postby ecc » Tue May 21, 2019 6:26 pm

Not exactly good news:

"Bolton Wanderers' non-playing staff will be paid from when administrators came in on 13 May, but they cannot pay any outstanding wages before their arrival at the club."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/48358792

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Chester Perry
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Re: Bolton

Postby Chester Perry » Tue May 21, 2019 7:13 pm

apparently the hotel is back in the High Court tomorrow as are Oldham and Oxford United


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