Bolton

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RammyClaret61
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Re: Bolton

Post by RammyClaret61 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:53 pm

While Bolton fans lorded it in the premier league with Davis pouring in millions. They were oblivious to the dangers a small club like Bolton, and us for that matter could face. They built massive infrastructure, signed players on big big wages. All because hit was Davis’ money and wasn’t really a debt. But what Then happens is his contribution ends. They think they’re debt free. But they’re left with an infrastructure they can’t afford to maintain. They have players they can’t afford to pay. They return to being just little old Bolton. Trouble is they’re still living in their premier league mansion. Exchange Bolton for Rovers, you have the same situation. Rich owners only work while they are there. Once they stop, it all falls down. Building big while you have money is not always the best course of action.
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cricketfieldclarets
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Re: Bolton

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:23 pm

RammyClaret61 wrote:While Bolton fans lorded it in the premier league with Davis pouring in millions. They were oblivious to the dangers a small club like Bolton, and us for that matter could face. They built massive infrastructure, signed players on big big wages. All because hit was Davis’ money and wasn’t really a debt. But what Then happens is his contribution ends. They think they’re debt free. But they’re left with an infrastructure they can’t afford to maintain. They have players they can’t afford to pay. They return to being just little old Bolton. Trouble is they’re still living in their premier league mansion. Exchange Bolton for Rovers, you have the same situation. Rich owners only work while they are there. Once they stop, it all falls down. Building big while you have money is not always the best course of action.
Building big is fine. With the right balance of ambition and frugality.

Its only what we have done off the field with Barnfield and the club shop(s), will be doing with the disabled section and should be doing with other parts of the ground. Whether we can afford all or any of them if it goes pete tongue who knows. Certainly wouldnt imagine there would be as much demand for half of the stuff we have in our club shops. Never mind having two of them within a mile of one another.

On the field we have clearly been way less ambitious. And at the same time less frugal!

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Re: Bolton

Post by NL Claret » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:32 pm

Is it possible to have a thread that doesn't end up with a comparison to Burnley FC?

Bolton Wanderers are, at the moment, a total basket case of a club. The EFL have a number of questions to answer.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Royboyclaret » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:51 pm

RammyClaret61 wrote:While Bolton fans lorded it in the premier league with Davis pouring in millions. They were oblivious to the dangers a small club like Bolton, and us for that matter could face. They built massive infrastructure, signed players on big big wages. All because hit was Davis’ money and wasn’t really a debt. But what Then happens is his contribution ends. They think they’re debt free. But they’re left with an infrastructure they can’t afford to maintain. They have players they can’t afford to pay. They return to being just little old Bolton. Trouble is they’re still living in their premier league mansion. Exchange Bolton for Rovers, you have the same situation. Rich owners only work while they are there. Once they stop, it all falls down. Building big while you have money is not always the best course of action.
All of the above is fine, but..........the financial landscape in the Premier League is completely different to the period when Eddie Davies was pouring millions into Bolton Wanderers. The broadcast Income is such now that all PL clubs are able to report a Net Profit (as we at Burnley will see in 3 weeks time) and we are more than capable of making the ground updates that we have recently undertaken.
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Re: Bolton

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:36 am

It's only different now due to increased revenue, at the time they earned enough to be financially stable, as did Rovers if ran properly, like any other business.

Bolton's problem, along with most clubs, is giving in to stupid wage demands, transfer fees etc.
Bolton became reliant on Eddie to keep them afloat, if they'd been run more sensibly then they would've been fine when he sold up at the end of the parachute payments.

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Re: Bolton

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:39 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Building big is fine. With the right balance of ambition and frugality.

Its only what we have done off the field with Barnfield and the club shop(s), will be doing with the disabled section and should be doing with other parts of the ground. Whether we can afford all or any of them if it goes pete tongue who knows. Certainly wouldnt imagine there would be as much demand for half of the stuff we have in our club shops. Never mind having two of them within a mile of one another.

On the field we have clearly been way less ambitious. And at the same time less frugal!
All the upgrades will be paid for, so no outstanding debts there, or a money leeching hotel bolted on like some clubs.
We don't have a secondary training centre to operate like Bolton did and Rovers do.

The smaller club shop can easily be closed down if demand isn't required.
As for the main club shop, it will tick along nicely I suspect, but it's certainly got better stock in there than it used too.

The disabled section has to be done, it's required by current regulations, plus it's morally right to sort the shambles that it was out.

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Re: Bolton

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:49 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:All the upgrades will be paid for, so no outstanding debts there, or a money leeching hotel bolted on like some clubs.
We don't have a secondary training centre to operate like Bolton did and Rovers do.

The smaller club shop can easily be closed down if demand isn't required.
As for the main club shop, it will tick along nicely I suspect, but it's certainly got better stock in there than it used too.

The disabled section has to be done, it's required by current regulations, plus it's morally right to sort the shambles that it was out.
Correct. The work will be paid for but ongoing costs wont be.

Agree the club shop is a million times better than what it was. And the disabled facilities were essential no doubt.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Royboyclaret » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:29 am

Proposed takeover by the Cheshire business consortium is now off.

Bolton face a winding up order in the High Court tomorrow.
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Re: Bolton

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:14 pm

They've apparently dodged 5 winding up orders in the last 2 years :shock:

6th time lucky for the taxman?

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Re: Bolton

Post by LeadBelly » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:27 pm

Yes GodisaDeeJay - just been catching up via the online version of the local Bolton paper https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... -go-ahead/
They say this is the 6th time in less than 18 months that the club has been hit by a winding up order because of unpaid tax/VAT.
There's a lot of brinkmanship going on but you cant help think that one will stick soon. A lot of the supporters are losing hope I think.

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Re: Bolton

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:43 pm

Losing hope?

It wasn't that long ago that they were hoping to be restored to their rightful place in the PL.

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Re: Bolton

Post by aggi » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:49 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:It's only different now due to increased revenue, at the time they earned enough to be financially stable, as did Rovers if ran properly, like any other business.

Bolton's problem, along with most clubs, is giving in to stupid wage demands, transfer fees etc.
Bolton became reliant on Eddie to keep them afloat, if they'd been run more sensibly then they would've been fine when he sold up at the end of the parachute payments.
It was more difficult to be financially stable and stay up then. The TV money was a smaller proportion of the overall income than it is now. We can compete with clubs with double our crowds because matchday and commercial revenue are a smaller proportion of the whole.

Back then it was much more difficult for a small club like Bolton, which is part of the reason they pushed the PL2 thing so much and why they ended up £200m in debt trying to keep up with other clubs.

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Re: Bolton

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:53 pm

They're also one reason why some fans find it acceptable to run at a loss if an owner is covering the losses and that includes some people on this forum.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Touchline » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:54 pm

I can’t see a way out of this for Bolton.
They’re going down in any case and anyone coming in will have to sign a few big cheques immediately.
I hope they find a buyer but I think it’s unlikely.

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Re: Bolton

Post by dsr » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:56 pm

It's not bad when the owner is putting money into the club by way of shares, because that becomes the club's money absolutely. The big problem is when the owner puts it in as loans - because no matter how benevolent the owner, sooner or later someone will ask for it back - be it the owner's heirs, his ex-wife, his creditors, or he himself when times are hard. Then the club is goosed.
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Re: Bolton

Post by NL Claret » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:59 pm

Not over clued up on finance or football finance as that seems to have its own rules. North Ferriby Utd wound up for less than £9k last week.

At the moment why would you buy Bolton Wanderers? Would it not be better for them to go into administration and then purchase the club on cheap?

HMRC winding up order due and the Davies family want their £5m back which was loaned to the club before he died. Something else stunk about that loan as Anderson put a charge against the club or something?

Not a good weekend for the club, 5-2 defeat at local rivals (not Utd or City as they like to think their rivals are) and a few videos on social media of their "fans" scraping with GMP at the match.

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Re: Bolton

Post by TVC15 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:05 pm

dsr wrote:It's not bad when the owner is putting money into the club by way of shares, because that becomes the club's money absolutely. The big problem is when the owner puts it in as loans - because no matter how benevolent the owner, sooner or later someone will ask for it back - be it the owner's heirs, his ex-wife, his creditors, or he himself when times are hard. Then the club is goosed.
Like Brendon Flood did then eh....i agree btw.

Only problem is that many clubs live in the here and now - they are not thinking of the clubs long term future. Bolton have had their once in a lifetime benefactor in Eddie Davies but as soon as that disappeared they are faced with few options like many clubs. They did have a choice, however, to live within their means and build the club back up slowly or to gamble...they chose the latter and have made bad decision after bad decision in the last few years. Got little or no sympathy for Bolton but this could easily have been us 10 or 11 years ago but for promotion.

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Re: Bolton

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:09 pm

Yet Burnley have learnt from that, eventually, and are more prudent with the money much to the disgust of some on here who're constantly demanding the club spend, spend, spend on players etc.

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Re: Bolton

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:14 pm

A club needs to go, to restore some sense, and after their fan's crowing, which yes, i'm still bitter about..... off they pop
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Re: Bolton

Post by Tricky Trevor » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:15 pm

As they are looking doomed, in the league, they are better off with the 12 point penalty this season than next but it is surely coming.

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Re: Bolton

Post by LS7 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:18 pm

My bet is they will be liquidated tomorrow and will not complete their season

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Re: Bolton

Post by Spike » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:20 pm

Owen coyle hasn't been a chairman yet!

could invest his multiple severance packages

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Re: Bolton

Post by randomclaret2 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:24 pm

Its not about demanding the club " spend spend spend ".Its about getting the balance right between being prudent and planning long term , and making the most of the fantastic opportunity we have to become established , as far as that is possible, in the Premier League. I would respectfully suggest that going from a 7th place finish to a relegation battle in 12 months on the back of soon to he announced large profits, would suggest the club have got that badly wrong of late.
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Re: Bolton

Post by TVC15 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:27 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:As they are looking doomed, in the league, they are better off with the 12 point penalty this season than next but it is surely coming.
Looks like the bookies agree - they are 250/1 on to be relegated !

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Re: Bolton

Post by dsr » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:27 pm

There are unconfirmed statements on the Bolton Wanderers message board (Wanderers Ways) that the club hasn't taken this month's direct debits for next year's season tickets, because they aren't allowed to take money for services they can't provide; and that the hotel is being run on a cash only basis, because if they take cards, the banks won't release the money. That sounds very, very bad.

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Re: Bolton

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:37 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:Its not about demanding the club " spend spend spend ".Its about getting the balance right between being prudent and planning long term , and making the most of the fantastic opportunity we have to become established , as far as that is possible, in the Premier League. I would respectfully suggest that going from a 7th place finish to a relegation battle in 12 months on the back of soon to he announced large profits, would suggest the club have got that badly wrong of late.
Leicester went from a title to a relegation battle in 12 months if I remember rightly and they've never been shy with money under their current ownership.
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Re: Bolton

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:41 pm

Its not always about money, and in our case the biggest issues have been a catastrophic lack of form from too many players over the season.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:52 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Leicester went from a title to a relegation battle in 12 months if I remember rightly and they've never been shy with money under their current ownership.
that they haven't current spending includes £80m-£100m (yes you have read that right - see post #628 on this thread http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... &start=600" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) on a new training facility due to open shortly and plans to increase capacity to over 40k

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Re: Bolton

Post by aggi » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:02 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Leicester went from a title to a relegation battle in 12 months if I remember rightly and they've never been shy with money under their current ownership.
To put it into perspective, when Leicester were in that relegation battle their wages were roughly double ours and they've carried on going up since then with wages of £120m last season. If they hadn't flogged Danny Drinkwater for so much they'd have been making a hefty loss.

They're a club that are going to have to decide what route they're going to take because the current view of some that they should be competing with the big clubs is likely to end them in trouble eventually.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Steve1956 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:07 pm

It's time to really put them out of their misery,horrible little club.
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summitclaret
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Re: Bolton

Post by summitclaret » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:11 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:Its not about demanding the club " spend spend spend ".Its about getting the balance right between being prudent and planning long term , and making the most of the fantastic opportunity we have to become established , as far as that is possible, in the Premier League. I would respectfully suggest that going from a 7th place finish to a relegation battle in 12 months on the back of soon to he announced large profits, would suggest the club have got that badly wrong of late.
Absolutely spot on. Bravo.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Herts Clarets » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:21 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its not always about money, and in our case the biggest issues have been a catastrophic lack of form from too many players over the season.
And of course the lack of alternatives when said players suffer from a lack of form. And the continued reliance on Defour as our savior to the total lack of any credible creativity in midfield, when I reality he has featured in about 13% of our games in the past 3 seasons......

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Re: Bolton

Post by Steve1956 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:24 pm

aggi wrote:To put it into perspective, when Leicester were in that relegation battle their wages were roughly double ours and they've carried on going up since then with wages of £120m last season. If they hadn't flogged Danny Drinkwater for so much they'd have been making a hefty loss.

They're a club that are going to have to decide what route they're going to take because the current view of some that they should be competing with the big clubs is likely to end them in trouble eventually.
Competing with the big six is never going to happen,they got really lucky when they won the league as all the top six where shite at the same time it will never happen again,clubs like Leicester chucking millions trying to compete with the big six will just as you say end in trouble,there really is no point at all to the Premier league.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Tricky Trevor » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:23 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Leicester went from a title to a relegation battle in 12 months if I remember rightly and they've never been shy with money under their current ownership.
It’s the top 6, then Everton. They are nowhere near the 7th best team but the gods have decreed they can’t be relegated. The rest are much of a muchness. We could go from 7th to 17th and back up to 7th. It is all in the lap of the referees.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Woodleyclaret » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:40 pm

Leicester managed to lose their hugh debt s few seasons back by some very creative accountants.Then Gary and his mates organised a buy out.Eventually the Thais turned up flashing the cash and all debts vanished totally.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Falcon » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:24 pm

Macclesfield Town and Bolton Wanderers both could be wound up tomorrow

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Re: Bolton

Post by Clarets4me » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:38 pm

Falcon wrote:Macclesfield Town and Bolton Wanderers both could be wound up tomorrow
Not seen or read anything about Macclesfield Town, " Falcon " ?

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Re: Bolton

Post by Falcon » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:40 pm

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/court ... winding-up" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ebbsfleet United also on the list

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Re: Bolton

Post by claptrappers_union » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:40 pm

Just seen something online about Macclesfield.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Falcon » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:41 pm

Macc Town number 126 on the list

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Re: Bolton

Post by Dyched » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:50 pm

aggi wrote:To put it into perspective, when Leicester were in that relegation battle their wages were roughly double ours and they've carried on going up since then with wages of £120m last season. If they hadn't flogged Danny Drinkwater for so much they'd have been making a hefty loss.

They're a club that are going to have to decide what route they're going to take because the current view of some that they should be competing with the big clubs is likely to end them in trouble eventually.
Don’t see an issue with what Leicester are doing

Mahrez sold
Kante sold
Drinkwater sold

Maddison will go for big money
Maguire, Grey, Chilwell with big sell on potential too

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Re: Bolton

Post by claretburns » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:01 pm

Dyched wrote:Don’t see an issue with what Leicester are doing

Mahrez sold
Kante sold
Drinkwater sold

Maddison will go for big money
Maguire, Grey, Chilwell with big sell on potential too
The fact that they got a brand new stadium for free, no I can't see anything they have done wrong either.

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Re: Bolton

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:02 pm

Forest Green Rovers have just confirmed that they are taking legal action against Bolton Wanderers over the sale/non-sale of Christian Doige.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... wanderers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bolton

Post by Dyched » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:05 pm

claretburns wrote:The fact that they got a brand new stadium for free, no I can't see anything they have done wrong either.
If Burnley got a new stadium for free you’d be disappointed?

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Re: Bolton

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:14 pm

Dyched wrote:If Burnley got a new stadium for free you’d be disappointed?
I would be if it was me that built the thing and then didn't get paid

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Re: Bolton

Post by claretburns » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:14 pm

Dyched wrote:If Burnley got a new stadium for free you’d be disappointed?
Well seeing as a club would use traders from the local area as sub contractors then yes I would be annoyed that a team can rip off the local community as in the case of Leicester and Portsmouth and no doubt countless others.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:26 pm

The upside of Bolton being liquidated is that Leeds would lose 6 points
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Re: Bolton

Post by aggi » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:34 pm

Dyched wrote:Don’t see an issue with what Leicester are doing

Mahrez sold
Kante sold
Drinkwater sold

Maddison will go for big money
Maguire, Grey, Chilwell with big sell on potential too
Yep, their transfer policy and the use of those young players has been good. If they continue developing players and flogging them off then that will certainly help to sustain them.

The trouble will come if they have a few years of not having anyone good enough to sell for big money. A policy of having to make a £40m profit on transfers each year (i.e. sell your best players and replace them with cheap ones) is tough to do year after year. Southampton managed it for a while but a bad choice of manager or a year or two of players not developing as you hope can lead to trouble.

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Re: Bolton

Post by Bosscat » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:47 pm

Just been annoinced the take over of Bolton Wanderers is off on Look North West
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Re: Bolton

Post by claret_in_exile » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Chester Perry wrote:The upside of Bolton being liquidated is that Leeds would lose 6 points
Double win!
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