Man United and Liverpool in Europe

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Imploding Turtle
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Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:59 pm

I absolutely love watching these two clubs in the Champions League.

What a game.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by theroyaldyche » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:01 pm

Heres hoping for a bayern win

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Darthlaw » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:03 pm

Just watching Neymar’s shellshocked expression made it for me.

The irony of the player who scored at OT, when he shouldn’t have been on the pitch, giving away the penalty is schadenfreunde only football can offer.

Great entertainment.
Last edited by Darthlaw on Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Goobs » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:03 pm

Let's have 4 English teams in the quarters and another two in the Europa. Just shows what company we are keeping and what an achievement last season was.
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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:04 pm

Stunning from United, but thats never a penalty and PSG made some terrible errors and missed a couple of good chances.

But if VAR is going to decide matches like that, then I've got to admit I'll be changing my mind again on whether its a good thing back to its not.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Goobs » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:04 pm

Darthlaw wrote:Just watching Neymar’s shellshocked expression made it for me.

The irony of the player who scored at OT, when he shouldn’t have been on the pitch, giving away the penalty is schadenfreunde only football can offer.

Great entertainment.
Exactly what I just said in conversation to someone.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Tricky Trevor » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:04 pm

What was the ref on? Incident happened at 89:08, pen scored at 93:16 and he’s added 3 mins. If you add the final minute and make it 4 he should be blowing up at 97. No more stoppages and he ends the match at 99:07. Costing Shaw a booking.
Superb performance.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Funkydrummer » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:06 pm

We will never hear the last of this for the next, god knows, how many weeks.

Think I'll turn the radio off.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Tricky Trevor » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:06 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Stunning from United, but thats never a penalty and PSG made some terrible errors and missed a couple of good chances.

But if VAR is going to decide matches like that, then I've got to admit I'll be changing my mind again on whether its a good thing back to its not.
Of course it was a pen. As the comms explained if you make your body wider it’s a pen. That was just what he did. His arm is well away from his side.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Hibsclaret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:08 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Stunning from United, but thats never a penalty and PSG made some terrible errors and missed a couple of good chances.

But if VAR is going to decide matches like that, then I've got to admit I'll be changing my mind again on whether its a good thing back to its not.
VAR is a great idea. However, they consistently prove that they get the decisions wrong when referred...how they give that decision is beyond me. Similar stuff against Man City in the first leg. They need to prove they can get decisions right when referred, that’ll be a start.

It would help everyone if every time it hits a hand, intentionally or not it’s a pen. Like the leg rule in hockey....

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:11 pm

Its not a pen Trev, but its probably worth giving it just for the expression on Neymar's face.

if thats against Burnley, you'd go absolutely mental.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:11 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Stunning from United, but thats never a penalty and PSG made some terrible errors and missed a couple of good chances.

But if VAR is going to decide matches like that, then I've got to admit I'll be changing my mind again on whether its a good thing back to its not.
It's not VAR's fault, if you don't think that should be a penalty then the fault is in the handball rule, not VAR.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by clitheroeclaret2 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:11 pm

Funkydrummer wrote:We will never hear the last of this for the next, god knows, how many weeks.

Think I'll turn the radio off.
Same here!

Robbery unfortunately, utd had one other effort on goal other than the 2 gifts from psg. Up steps the ref to make the biggest cock up of them all....

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Roosterbooster » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:13 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Of course it was a pen. As the comms explained if you make your body wider it’s a pen. That was just what he did. His arm is well away from his side.
Nonsense. His arms are in a natural position. He’s a defender. Not a sardine in a tin. Try taping your arms to your body and seeing how much manoeuvrability you have. The laws of the game being interpreted by sofa warriors who haven’t played a serious game of football in their lives
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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Hibsclaret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:13 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its not a pen Trev, but its probably worth giving it just for the expression on Neymar's face.

if thats against Burnley, you'd go absolutely mental.
Absolutely.

I’m not sure how turning your back can be classed as intentional. They need to change the laws for me.
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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by ArmchairDetective » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:13 pm

Never a pen. But you know it was going to be given as soon as it went to VAR.

Great for entertainment value, regardless.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its not a pen Trev, but its probably worth giving it just for the expression on Neymar's face.

if thats against Burnley, you'd go absolutely mental.

Remember how mental we went when Koscielny scored against us with what was clearly an unfair advantage gained by the ball hitting his arm? Letter of the law at the time was that it wasnt' a handball, even though the ball was clearly going over the bar off his own foot, but it hit his arm and went in.

I remember.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:14 pm

It's not VAR's fault, if you don't think that should be a penalty then the fault is in the handball rule, not VAR.
Fair point, but if it wasn't for VAR no one would even have noticed and it would have been a corner.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Vegas Claret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:14 pm

Brilliant for Utd with the team they had out

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Hibsclaret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:15 pm

ArmchairDetective wrote:Never a pen. But you know it was going to be given as soon as it went to VAR.

Great for entertainment value, regardless.
If most of us say it isn’t a pen...it goes to VAR and is given there is a clear problem somewhere. VAR is supposed to clear things up....l

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by TVC15 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:15 pm

Glad United won but no way in a million years that should be a penalty....if it’s the rules then they are wrong.
Where is a defender supposed to put his arms ?

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Roosterbooster » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:15 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It's not VAR's fault, if you don't think that should be a penalty then the fault is in the handball rule, not VAR.
I haven’t read the official wording recently, but from what I remember, it’s not the rules that are wrong, but the official explanations of how to interpret the rules...

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Darthlaw » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:16 pm

I wouldn’t be happy if it was given against us but slow mo made it look a lot worse and like he was making his body wider. I get why the ref gave it.

Alternatively, the ref may have just been balancing the cock up of not sending off Kim-ember in the first leg... :twisted:

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by conyoviejo » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:16 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It's not VAR's fault, if you don't think that should be a penalty then the fault is in the handball rule, not VAR.
Of course its VARS fault..No VAR no penalty ..

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Dark Cloud » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:19 pm

If VAR is going to work it needs to be a whole lot quicker than that AND it's supposed to clear up controversy, but as that decision shows, it never, ever will because imo that was never a penalty in a million years and I don't think even the Utd players were asking for one (just the corner), but yet even after a review a pen is given. If this all becomes a regular thing I can see me turning right off footy completely.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:19 pm

Hibsclaret wrote:VAR is a great idea. However, they consistently prove that they get the decisions wrong when referred...how they give that decision is beyond me. Similar stuff against Man City in the first leg. They need to prove they can get decisions right when referred, that’ll be a start.

It would help everyone if every time it hits a hand, intentionally or not it’s a pen. Like the leg rule in hockey....
VAR is just another person watching a screen and telling the onfield official that he should have another look, in other words, it is just another opinion. Yes, the referee has the final decision, however, because VAR is very much the new toy the referee is under pressure to go along the lines that, if he is called to review, he should go along with the VAR operator's decision ---hence the referee tonight changed his decision from corner to penalty ---just as happened in the World Cup Final. As someone further up the post said ---they need to change the Law to say that any handball is an offence whether deliberate or accidental anywhere on the pitch.

The game is dying on its feet because of overcomplication and it is the officials who are suffering the most! Very sad.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by ArmchairDetective » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:19 pm

Hibsclaret wrote:If most of us say it isn’t a pen...it goes to VAR and is given there is a clear problem somewhere. VAR is supposed to clear things up....l
Absolutely agree with you.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:20 pm

Has there been a call yet in which the ref has gone to look and then not changed his mind?

There must have been one somewhere, but its certainly not the norm.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:21 pm

conyoviejo wrote:Of course its VARS fault..No VAR no penalty ..
That's a very short-sighted view. If the referee had seen it hit his arm in the first place he'd have given a penalty, because the problem is the rule, not the evidence.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by ArmchairDetective » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:24 pm

Hibsclaret wrote:If most of us say it isn’t a pen...it goes to VAR and is given there is a clear problem somewhere. VAR is supposed to clear things up....l
It’s not the fault of VAR as some are suggesting. There’s a clear disparity between the expectations/understanding of players and fans, and that of referees. VAR has just highlighted the issue and goes some way to explaining why we have questioned the decisions of referees previously.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Roosterbooster » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:24 pm

Official handball rules:

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player handles the ball deliberately.

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement
• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement



How you can interpret these rules to suggest there was a clear and obvious error is beyond me

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Roosterbooster » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:25 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:That's a very short-sighted view. If the referee had seen it hit his arm in the first place he'd have given a penalty, because the problem is the rule, not the evidence.
I think the rule is fine. I think the interpretation is idiotic

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:27 pm

Roosterbooster wrote:Official handball rules:

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player handles the ball deliberately.

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement
• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement



How you can interpret these rules to suggest there was a clear and obvious error is beyond me
The clear and obvious error would be if the ref hadn't seen it hit the defender's arm.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:28 pm

I don't think the ref would have given that as a penalty in real time, which is the key here.

He only gives it as its slowed down so it looks more deliberate than it is.

Only solution is the one Hibs says, every handball in the box is a penalty. Then there is no argument.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by ArmchairDetective » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:30 pm

Porto just scored from a penalty given by VAR too. Probably the correct decision.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by conyoviejo » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:30 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:That's a very short-sighted view. If the referee had seen it hit his arm in the first place he'd have given a penalty, because the problem is the rule, not the evidence.
Disagree IT,the ball hit his arm as it was travelling at speed.No way did the player make any movement deliberately to handle it.. The shot was going well over the bar anyway..

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:31 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I don't think the ref would have given that as a penalty in real time, which is the key here.

He only gives it as its slowed down so it looks more deliberate than it is.

Only solution is the one Hibs says, every handball in the box is a penalty. Then there is no argument.
Lancaster---you then have to say that any handball, anywhere on the pitch will be penalised, then there is no argument.
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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:31 pm

Yeah, I reckon thats fair.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by TVC15 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:32 pm

Nobody who has played the game at any decent level would say that was a penalty.

Lineker again calls for anytime a ball hits your arm to be a foul. Rio Ferdinand quite rightly saying that would mean defenders would have to play with their hands behind their back which would be unfair.

It’s ok talking about whether that’s the rule but another rule for VAR is that it has to be clear and obvious to go and check it.

Given that it was impossible to say that and the referee spent 4 minutes checking the replay several times it’s another rule that needs clearing up or else next season will be a farce

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Greeny » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:33 pm

It’s a penalty folks. VAR here to stay. Get used to it. Arsenal will be very nervous when they play us in future as they might not get their usual 2 goal start........

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Tall Paul » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:41 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:Lancaster---you then have to say that any handball, anywhere on the pitch will be penalised, then there is no argument.
That's a terrible idea. Attackers would just boot the ball at defenders' arms every time they get into the penalty area.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Buxtonclaret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:42 pm

All they've done is replace 'Fergie Time' with VAR

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Hibsclaret » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:43 pm

conyoviejo wrote:The shot was going well over the bar anyway..
Where the ball is going is irrelevant tbh.

If laws are changed as I suggested above we would have to get used to more pens, free kicks and goals. Not necessarily a bad thing but defenders like Rio will have a moan and you could argue there will be an impact on the art of defending. Also good attacking players could practice aiming for arms rather than diving.....

I also believe we may see bias to the big clubs on VAR referrals. During our cup game our one referral was turned over whilst a very similar one for Man U was given on the same day...we shall see but it gives them another official to bribe....
Last edited by Hibsclaret on Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:44 pm

Great result for United but every chance they have just made it a whole lot easier for City to win the competition.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Roosterbooster » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:45 pm

TVC15 wrote:Nobody who has played the game at any decent level would say that was a penalty.

Lineker again calls for anytime a ball hits your arm to be a foul. Rio Ferdinand quite rightly saying that would mean defenders would have to play with their hands behind their back which would be unfair.

It’s ok talking about whether that’s the rule but another rule for VAR is that it has to be clear and obvious to go and check it.

Given that it was impossible to say that and the referee spent 4 minutes checking the replay several times it’s another rule that needs clearing up or else next season will be a farce
Spot on with every point

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:58 pm

Tall Paul wrote:That's a terrible idea. Attackers would just boot the ball at defenders' arms every time they get into the penalty area.
Tall Paul --I know that it is a terrible idea ---I have played, refereed and managed teams, at a decent level, in the game for well over 50 years, however, this is the way that the game is going and VAR will dictate that the Law be changed. You can't have handball given in the area without the same Law being applied everywhere else on the field.
The powers that run the game will change things to accommodate their new toy ---VAR!!
Last edited by Ashingtonclaret46 on Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by martin_p » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:01 pm

Wow, only just seen it. Another VAR disaster there!

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by paulus the woodgnome » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Why did the defender turn his back? So that the ball might hit his "naturally positioned" arm perhaps. It's a pen.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by dsr » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:19 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:Lancaster---you then have to say that any handball, anywhere on the pitch will be penalised, then there is no argument.
You think there'd be no argument? No arguiment about whether or not the ball brushed the player's fingertip? No argument about whether the ball, controlled on the man's chest, also touched the inside of the arm? No argument about whether the ball flicking the sleeve counts as handball if the sleeve is flapping slightly away from the body? No argument when two players go for a header in a crowded area and the ball gets trapped between the two of them, whose hand it touched first on the way down?

There would be lots of arguments. Just different ones.

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Re: Man United and Liverpool in Europe

Post by dsr » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:21 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:What was the ref on? Incident happened at 89:08, pen scored at 93:16 and he’s added 3 mins. If you add the final minute and make it 4 he should be blowing up at 97. No more stoppages and he ends the match at 99:07. Costing Shaw a booking.
Superb performance.
No more stoppages? You must have missed the goal! :twisted:

There were five and a half minutes between play stopping for the corner/penalty, and the kick=off after the goal. The extra minute and a half was the goal celebration and the PSG substitution. Then it got to 8+ and that young lad tried some clever ball retention instead of booting it down the other end, and Shaw gave away the foul; in theory, they shouldn't add on time to let them take the free kick. In practice, they always do.

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