Anti semetism

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Locked
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri May 03, 2019 12:39 pm

android wrote:You may not be defending anti-Semitism but it is obvious that you, Greenmile, AndrewJB and others are choosing to ignore the evidence of anti-Semitism because it rightly paints Corbyn in a very bad light.
No, that is what Rowls want you to do.

They are pointing out what a massive hypocrite Rowls is.

Thats all

android
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:01 am
Been Liked: 119 times
Has Liked: 43 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by android » Fri May 03, 2019 12:44 pm

Rubbish
This user liked this post: Damo

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri May 03, 2019 12:45 pm

Not rubbish

No one doubts that Lab have anti-semitism problems, and Corbyn is at the centre of that.

Rowls just wants to concentrate on that (which he's perfectly entitled to do) and its up to us to point that bit out.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 03, 2019 12:47 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:No one doubts that Lab have anti-semitism problems, and Corbyn is at the centre of that.
Actually, it would appear that plenty of people do doubt that central tenet and they dispute it quite vigorously.

That is the whole point of the thread.

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Fri May 03, 2019 1:07 pm

Rowls wrote:Actually, it would appear that plenty of people do doubt that central tenet and they dispute it quite vigorously.

That is the whole point of the thread.
Who’s disputing it?

I’ve made zero comment about anti-semitism in the Labour Party on this thread, as it’s a complex issue which I don’t feel I know enough about to form an opinion on yet. I’ve just been pointing out your rank hypocrisy, as Lancs has noted.

Any sign of those examples of your anti-racism posts that don’t also involve having a go at Labour or Corbyn yet? Thought not.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 03, 2019 1:09 pm

Anyway, here we are on page 6 so I thought I'd make a little recap of all the instances that I've been able to post since this thread started:

1. A helpful BBC guide to anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45030552" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. A Labour mayoral candidate willing to defend Naz Shah's comments
https://order-order.com/2019/03/08/labo ... semistism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3. A Labour shadow minister who lied about sharing anti-semitic posts, then apologized
https://twitter.com/JewishChron/status/ ... 2754785281" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... byn-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4. Member of Corbyn's office blocked the suspension of a Labour Party member later arrested over alleged hate crimes
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/memb ... d-1.482318" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/sta ... 3530095616" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

5. Jeremy Corbyn himself caught defending an extremely anti-semitic "blood libel" cleric who was banned from the UK
https://twitter.com/magnitsky/status/11 ... 4784778240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

6. Jeremy Corbyn (again) accused of taking money from a branch of the anti-semitic terrorist organisation Hamas (accusation unrefuted to my knowledge - open to correction on this matter)
https://order-order.com/2019/04/05/corb ... ying-trip/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

7. The day the Sunday Times decided the story was big enough to lead the front page
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -9zzl0gxpv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

8. The BBC following suit and an admission from Jeremy Corbyn (him again)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47924025" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

9. Richard Burgon, MP for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party caught lying about publicly beating the drum of "anti-Zionism"
https://twitter.com/magnitsky/status/11 ... 0713327618" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

10. Member of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party suspended after call to "march on synagogue"
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/la ... synagogue/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

11. Jeremy Corbyn (yet again) praising an anti-semitic mural (which it turns out he hadn't "looked closely enough" at)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... byn-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

12. Jeremy Corbyn (who'd have thought it) writing a foreward praising a book widely decried as deeply anti-semitic
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/corb ... -6jfcmh5fp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

13. A Twitter account set up by Jewish ex-Labour member to highlight anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party
https://twitter.com/GnasherJew" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

14. Jeremy Corbyn (shock, horror) explaining how Israel is somehow exerting influence over and/or controlling the BBC, presumably as part of a conspiracy
https://order-order.com/2019/05/02/corb ... uence-bbc/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And there we have it!

That's a brief summary of the things that have cropped up in the past few months. As we can see, these stories do seem to pop up frequently - even when they refer to past events.

There doesn't seem to be a shortage of instances that directly involve Jeremy Corbyn either.

Some people might think these are anti-semitic, others might think they constitute legitimate political debate and criticisms. I'm just leaving them here for people to decide themselves.

I'll keep posting examples as and when they appear.

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Fri May 03, 2019 1:12 pm

Some folk may think Rowls is a prick, others may not. I’ll leave that for people to decide for themselves.

I’m sure he’ll keep posting examples to help you make your minds up, though. There certainly doesn’t seem to be any shortage of them.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 03, 2019 1:21 pm

Greenmile wrote:I’ve made zero comment about anti-semitism in the Labour Party on this thread, as it’s a complex issue which I don’t feel I know enough about to form an opinion on yet. I’ve just been pointing out your rank hypocrisy, as Lancs has noted.

Any sign of those examples of your anti-racism posts that don’t also involve having a go at Labour or Corbyn yet? Thought not.
Unfortunately, I confess I find you the dullest poster by some distance Greenmile. However, I'm willing to help you.

For starters, one might assume you're a *little* bit interested in anti-semitism; or else why do you post so frequently here?

I've just listed 14 (fourteen) examples of what may (or may not) constitute anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and yet you feel, despite your evident interest in the subject, that you 'don't feel you know enough' to form an opinion on it.

Well the good news is that I'm here to help you. I'll continue posting examples until you feel you know enough to form an opinion. Maybe just the outline of an opinion?

To help you in opinion-forming gestation period here are some example opinions which you might decide to form once you have enough information to form a fully fledged opinion:

1. "I don't think there is ANY anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party!"
2. "I think the entire Labour movement is awash with anti-semites!"
3. "All of these accusation are actually just legitimate criticism of the state of Israel"
4. "Jeremy Corbyn has a history of hanging around with and providing succour to anti-semites, has questionable views on Israel and since he has become Labour Party leader his Labour Party appear to be embroiled in ongoing problems and accusations of anti-semitism"

Remember, these are just example opinions - you may want to form an entirely new opinion for yourself!

Good luck in the opinion forming process but don't try too hard to form an opinion. We wouldn't want you to over-stretch your cognitive functions.

As ever, I'll continue to post examples that may help you in this tricky opinion-forming phase you're in.

Perhaps I'll ask how you're getting along after the 20th example?

Best of luck!

Rowls

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri May 03, 2019 1:27 pm

Rowls wrote:Actually, it would appear that plenty of people do doubt that central tenet and they dispute it quite vigorously.

That is the whole point of the thread.
You don't read what anyone replies to you.

Thats a very irritating Brexiteer trait it has to be said.

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Fri May 03, 2019 1:30 pm

Rowls wrote:Unfortunately, I confess I find you the dullest poster by some distance Greenmile. However, I'm willing to help you.

For starters, one might assume you're a *little* bit interested in anti-semitism; or else why do you post so frequently here?

I've just listed 14 (fourteen) examples of what may (or may not) constitute anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and yet you feel, despite your evident interest in the subject, that you 'don't feel you know enough' to form an opinion on it.

Well the good news is that I'm here to help you. I'll continue posting examples until you feel you know enough to form an opinion. Maybe just the outline of an opinion?

To help you in opinion-forming gestation period here are some example opinions which you might decide to form once you have enough information to form a fully fledged opinion:

1. "I don't think there is ANY anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party!"
2. "I think the entire Labour movement is awash with anti-semites!"
3. "All of these accusation are actually just legitimate criticism of the state of Israel"
4. "Jeremy Corbyn has a history of hanging around with and providing succour to anti-semites, has questionable views on Israel and since he has become Labour Party leader his Labour Party appear to be embroiled in ongoing problems and accusations of anti-semitism"

Remember, these are just example opinions - you may want to form an entirely new opinion for yourself!

Good luck in the opinion forming process but don't try too hard to form an opinion. We wouldn't want you to over-stretch your cognitive functions.

As ever, I'll continue to post examples that may help you in this tricky opinion-forming phase you're in.

Perhaps I'll ask how you're getting along after the 20th example?

Best of luck!

Rowls
I have no interest in reading your examples, Rowls, as they aren’t coming from an unbiased source. I may as well ask CCHQ if Corbyn is an anti-Semite. I haven’t clicked on a single link you put in this thread, apart from the Count Dankula tweet, as it appeared to be aimed directly at me.

I would be most interested to see any examples of you calling out racism more generally, though. I think that’s 4 times I’ve asked now, and you’ve yet to provide a single example. I’m beginning to think there aren’t any, and you don’t actually care at all about racism.

Edit - that’s not entirely true. I seem to remember finding a post for you when you criticised racist fans from the 1970s, so it may just be contemporary racism that you don’t care about / are in favour of.

There’s plenty of examples of you defending racists / racism on this board though, isn’t there?
Last edited by Greenmile on Fri May 03, 2019 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 03, 2019 1:32 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You don't read what anyone replies to you.
Thats a very irritating Brexiteer trait it has to be said.
I don't read *everything* I admit that Lancaster but so much of it is guff.

But how could you possibly *know* what I do and do not read? You don't have access to my mind do you? I confess I've not been wearing my tinfoil hat all day recently.

Perhaps I just don't feel the need to respond to all the nonsense that comes my way?

Perhaps you've confused "not reading" with "not replying"?

I'll let others decide whether that's a "remainer" trait or not. :?:
This user liked this post: Damo

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 03, 2019 1:33 pm

Greenmile wrote:I have no interest in reading your examples, Rowls
Well that's not exactly going to help you in your all-important opinion-forming gestation period, is it?

I predict a rocky opinion-forming pregnancy unless you change your ways.

All the best

Rowls

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Fri May 03, 2019 1:36 pm

Rowls wrote:Well that's not exactly going to help you in your all-important opinion-forming gestation period, is it?

I predict a rocky opinion-forming pregnancy unless you change your ways.

All the best

Rowls
I tend not to form my opinions by listening to folk who regularly defend racists when it comes to topics of racism. It would be like asking Josef Fritz for advice on how to bring up a child.

Tbh I’m in no rush to form a strong opinion on this subject anyway. I just don’t like to see your hypocrisy go unchallenged.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 03, 2019 1:38 pm

Greenmile wrote:I tend not to form my opinions by listening to folk who regularly defend racists when it comes to topics of racism.

Tbh I’m in no rush to form a strong opinion on this subject anyway. I just don’t like to see your hypocrisy go unchallenged.
You keep trotting this out - why not just start a thread on the subject of me "defending racists"?

Or at least try your best to form an opinion about possibly starting a thread.

Take your time though. We know how long it takes you to form thoughts in your head.
Last edited by Rowls on Fri May 03, 2019 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This user liked this post: Damo

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Fri May 03, 2019 1:39 pm

Credit where it's due to Rowls, only Ringo surpasses his ability to answer the question/comment that he wants to answer rather than what was actually posted.
This user liked this post: Greenmile

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 03, 2019 1:40 pm

aggi wrote:Credit where it's due to Rowls, only Ringo surpasses his ability to answer the question/comment that he wants to answer rather than what was actually posted.
I'm doing my best to keep this thread on topic and nothing more. This is a messageboard after all and it's generally considered polite to stick to the topic in question.

If people want a "Rowls' Opinions on X" thread, or an "Islamophobia" thread, or any other kind of thread they are very welcome to start one.

I've said this numerous times but nobody has taken up the offer so far.

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Fri May 03, 2019 1:51 pm

Rowls wrote:You keep trotting this out - why not just start a thread on the subject of me "defending racists"?

Or at least try your best to form an opinion about possibly starting a thread.

Take your time though. We know how long it takes you to form thoughts in your head.
Already done it on a different thread. Here you go..
Greenmile wrote:Of course Rowls wants us to call out the horrific everyday racism against white men, but funny how he seems a bit more equivocal (to be generous) when it comes to calling out racism against black people, as demonstrated by his contributions to the following threads.

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=20819" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=19545" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=15439" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Greenmile wrote:This morning I searched your posts for the word "racism". I've just tried doing the same for the word "racist". Here's what I came up with...

Rowls throwing the racist epithet "Japs" around with wild abandon (and calling out anti-white racism in the same thread).

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... st#p655610" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rowls defending racist comments from a Labour MP (whilst still managing to have a go at Labour)

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... st#p562346" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rowls claiming the Daily Mail isn't racist

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... st#p418898" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's just from the first page (along with the three threads linked earlier).

I did also find a comment condemning Le Front National as racists, to be fair, but only in an effort to defend Brexit.

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... st#p392319" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If I was to put all this on a new thread, it would defeat the object (ie showing everyone what a hypocrite you are)

I’m still waiting for those counter-examples, Rowls. I expect you’ll probably just call me dull again instead, though.

android
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:01 am
Been Liked: 119 times
Has Liked: 43 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by android » Fri May 03, 2019 3:21 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Not rubbish

No one doubts that Lab have anti-semitism problems, and Corbyn is at the centre of that.

Rowls just wants to concentrate on that (which he's perfectly entitled to do) and its up to us to point that bit out.
Lancs your post was rubbish because you said I was doing what Rowls wanted. I did not mention Rowls and I do not know him. The idea of doing something for likes from someone I don't know is from a different era to me! If you want to fixate on Rowls that's up to you but leave me out of it.

You have spectacularly missed the point if you think no-one doubts that Labour have an anti-Semitism problem under Corbyn. That's the reason I am posting - because some people who profess loudest to be against racism AND are quick to label others racist (not Andrew JB to be fair) are turning a blind eye to Corbyn's anti-Semitism.

It seems there might be a chink of light for Greenmile, as he is going to get round to thinking about it at some point! As Greenmile seems to want Corbyn to be our prime minister and he is a staunch opponent of racism you might have thought he would consider the fact that Corbyn might be a bit of a racist with a little more urgency! But hey - let's focus on Rowls!!
These 2 users liked this post: Rowls Damo

Cryssys
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:47 pm
Been Liked: 141 times
Has Liked: 28 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Cryssys » Fri May 03, 2019 3:25 pm

Rowls wrote:I am unashamed about my anti-racism.
Does that mean all forms of racism?

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Fri May 03, 2019 3:25 pm

android wrote:Lancs your post was rubbish because you said I was doing what Rowls wanted. I did not mention Rowls and I do not know him. The idea of doing something for likes from someone I don't know is from a different era to me! If you want to fixate on Rowls that's up to you but leave me out of it.

You have spectacularly missed the point if you think no-one doubts that Labour have an anti-Semitism problem under Corbyn. That's the reason I am posting - because some people who profess loudest to be against racism AND are quick to label others racist (not Andrew JB to be fair) are turning a blind eye to Corbyn's anti-Semitism.

It seems there might be a chink of light for Greenmile, as he is going to get round to thinking about it at some point! As Greenmile seems to want Corbyn to be our prime minister and he is a staunch opponent of racism you might have thought he would consider the fact that Corbyn might be a bit of a racist with a little more urgency! But hey - let's focus on Rowls!!
What on Earth makes you think I want Corbyn to be PM?

android
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:01 am
Been Liked: 119 times
Has Liked: 43 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by android » Fri May 03, 2019 3:33 pm

Greenmile wrote:What on Earth makes you think I want Corbyn to be PM?
If you don't that's excellent news Greenmile - apologies. If Andrew and Turtle can confirm the same that would make my day.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 03, 2019 3:36 pm

Cryssys wrote:Does that mean all forms of racism?
What kind of answer do you expect here?

"No, I'm awfully racist against hobbits"

I don't feel the need to equivocate on the matter.

The answer is a simple, yes.

But the topic of this thread is anti-semitism.

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Fri May 03, 2019 3:42 pm

Rowls wrote:What kind of answer do you expect here?
A dishonest one.

Erasmus
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 574 times
Has Liked: 44 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Erasmus » Fri May 03, 2019 3:50 pm

Rowls, I see from your long list of instances, you still can't distinguish between anti-semitism and anti-zionism. Or perhaps you can but confusing the two assists your wider aims. Anti-semitism is a vile form of racism and the Labour Party has a long and proud tradition of opposing anti-semitism. Anti-zionism is another means of opposing racism and so it is quite natural that the Labour Party would be anti-zionist as it is anti-racist.

There is a problem when in a few instances, stupid and rather unpleasant people in the Labour Party use anti-semitic language as a part of their opposition to zionism. Equally unfortunate is the unpleasant mode of debate that is feature of contemporary politics where any form of abuse is deemed acceptable in arguing against ideological adversaries. It is unfortunate and disgraceful that some members of the Labour Party follow this modern trend and abuse supporters of Israel in anti-semitic terms.

But if you really want to have sensible discussion of this issue, you have to show that you understand the vast distinction that properly exists between anti-semitism and anti-zionism. It seems more likely, however, that you have no interest in a proper discussion but are just involving yourself with the issue because you see it as a way of expressing a rather petty-minded tribal loyalty. A bit more maturity would be welcome as this is a serious issue on all fronts.
These 2 users liked this post: Greenmile AndrewJB

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 03, 2019 3:55 pm

Erasmus wrote:Rowls, I see from your long list of instances, you still can't distinguish between anti-semitism and anti-zionism.
We've been here before on this thread, erasmus. In fact, more than once.

I've been extremely careful in what I've described as being anti-semitic.

What I am posting is examples where Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party are being accused of anti-semitism.

People can decide for themselves whether they are anti-semitic, "anti-Zionist" or anything else.

People can also decide for themselves whether the line between anti-semitism and "anti-Zionism" is a clear cut fine black line which can easily bisect comments into one camp or the other. Or they might decide for themselves that the truth is a lot more complex and that line between anti-semtism and "anti-Zionism" is often blurry, ambiguous and open to abuse and exploitation by anti-semites.

You appear to be accusing me of labelling my examples as "anti-semitic" but I have done nothing of the sort. I have merely posted them as accusations.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 03, 2019 3:59 pm

15. Lifelong Labour supporter Tony "Baldrick" Robinson has quit Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party citing, amongst other things, the handling of anti-semitism claims
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 98306.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Fri May 03, 2019 4:11 pm

android wrote:You may not be defending anti-Semitism but it is obvious that you, Greenmile, AndrewJB and others are choosing to ignore the evidence of anti-Semitism because it rightly paints Corbyn in a very bad light.
I’ve rebutted some “evidence” that has been put forward because it’s flimsy at best, so you can’t say I’ve ignored it. Nobody has put forward evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic - only things that very tenuously link him to people that are (or have been). So on the basis of evidence are you going to ignore the mountain of it that shows he’s campaigned for most of his life against racism, and injustice? How would someone like that be a secret anti-Semite? And given that he’s never tried to hide the fact he’s willing to take on unpopular causes (bear in mind things like wanting freedom for Mandela make him a “crank” in the eyes of Rowls), then there should be more real evidence than he once liked a Facebook post. I’m not saying there isn’t anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, because there is across our whole society (polls show Tory voters are twice as likely to be anti-Semitic), but Corbyn says he isn’t and there’s no strong evidence to say he is. Why is the press trawling through things of years ago to look for it? Because he scares them. In 2005 the Labour Party ran election advertisements that could easily be seen as anti-Semitic (attacking Michael Howard). This is never brought up because it doesn’t involve Corbyn. So is the issue antiSemitism, or Corbyn?
This user liked this post: longsidepies

tiger76
Posts: 25697
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 4644 times
Has Liked: 9849 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: Anti semetism

Post by tiger76 » Fri May 03, 2019 4:20 pm

Rowls wrote:15. Lifelong Labour supporter Tony "Baldrick" Robinson has quit Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party citing, amongst other things, the handling of anti-semitism claims
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 98306.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He does also mention brexit and the fact that the leadership is complete s**t.

In normal circumstances both the Conservative and Labour parties would be looking for new leaders after that mauling last night,and with the EU Elections round the corner,however we aren't in normal times,far from it.

Erasmus
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 574 times
Has Liked: 44 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Erasmus » Fri May 03, 2019 4:30 pm

Deliberately avoiding the key question again Rowls. Why? You claim to be responding to Cpl Jones request for information about 'what specific anti Semitic acts have taken place'. So why are you including reports of anti-zionism when it is quite obvious that this is different from anti-semitism. If you want to include anti-zionism as evidence of anti-semitism you have to explain why you understand the two to be the same.

Avoiding this essential issue by saying 'people can decide for themselves' is a cheap way of avoiding a question you are afraid to properly confront. Afraid because that question undermines your aim of discrediting the Labour Party. I only wish you really cared about racism (and that includes anti-semitism). But using such an issue for petty tribal purposes is rather distasteful.
These 3 users liked this post: longsidepies AndrewJB Greenmile

Cryssys
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:47 pm
Been Liked: 141 times
Has Liked: 28 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Cryssys » Fri May 03, 2019 4:40 pm

Rowls wrote:I'm sorry you find this thread on racism to be such an opportunity to be flippant.
Rowls wrote: "No, I'm awfully racist against hobbits"
This user liked this post: Greenmile

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Spijed » Fri May 03, 2019 4:56 pm

Rowls wrote:I'm sorry you find this thread on racism to be such an opportunity to be flippant.
You really are completely two-faced, aren't you?

Anyway, what's wrong with being flippant?

If you don't like the attitude of others then you shouldn't be posting.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Fri May 03, 2019 4:58 pm

android wrote:If you don't that's excellent news Greenmile - apologies. If Andrew and Turtle can confirm the same that would make my day.
In my perfect political world we’d have a Green Party government - and you would still find me on here criticising it. In this world I’ll be very happy with a.Corbyn Labour government, because it’ll be a massive step away from where we are now, and a big step toward PR and a more representative democracy.

Thank you for noting me as someone who doesn’t hurl the term racist at people while we debate things - I’m 51, and I think that nearly everyone of the same age has at some time in the past used inappropriate language of one kind or another (at least we didn’t get it filmed to be put up on Y-tube), so I wonder whether you’d look at all the evidence and actually call Corbyn an anti-Semite.

Damo
Posts: 4504
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:04 pm
Been Liked: 1777 times
Has Liked: 2761 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Damo » Fri May 03, 2019 5:14 pm

AndrewJB wrote:(polls show Tory voters are twice as likely to be anti-Semitic)
Polls show?
Please explain how a poll to work out who is the most anti-semitic voters works
:lol:

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Fri May 03, 2019 5:19 pm

Damo wrote:Polls show?
Please explain how a poll to work out who is the most anti-semitic voters works
:lol:
This: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... ougov-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Fri May 03, 2019 5:32 pm

And https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... ougov-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

android
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:01 am
Been Liked: 119 times
Has Liked: 43 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by android » Fri May 03, 2019 5:59 pm

Hi Andrew - you seem like a good person to me and, when you wrote about education recently, I was thinking I would be happy to have you teach my kids - given that virtually every teacher seems to be a lefty!

But I genuinely believe that you are in denial about Corbyn. In post 226 you complained about certain newspapers obscuring and twisting facts regarding the wreath laying. I agree that they do this a lot but it was actually you doing it in post 226. You said that Corbyn was accompanied by a Tory and a Lib Dem. I don't think this is true. I believe they went to the same conference as him in Tunisia but I would be astonished if they were at the wreath laying. You also said that Corbyn was laying a wreath to innocent bombing victims. Corbyn himself admitted in the Morning Star at the time that the wreath laying was for both those victims and also for those killed by Mossad in Paris (i.e. the terrorists). It just so happens that the wreath that Corbyn is seen handling in photos is the one in front of the terrorist memorial and 15 yards away from the bomb victims memorial. It is when this evidence was produced that Corbyn changed his story to the ridiculous "I was present but I don't think I was involved".

If you had asked me a year or so ago whether Corbyn was anti-Semitic I would probably have said no - he is just highly tolerant of it from people who agree with his causes. But now? I actually believe he is anti-Semitic. I don't doubt that he believes he is not. One factor is his lack of action on anti-Semitism in his party - just how tolerant do you have to be before you justify the label yourself. The second factor is the other information that has come to light about Corbyn himself. There is the mural and also his dismissal of the British Jew as "they" do not understand irony or our British sense of humour (can't remember his exact words). Any chance he would have said this about any other race? I get your point about the book foreword and Hobson being from a different era. But according to Finkelstein in the Times part of Corbyn's foreword referenced the section in which Jews were referred to as "a single and peculiar race". Whatever the era, do you think there is any chance that Corbyn would have been associated with a book that described black people in this way?

Damo
Posts: 4504
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:04 pm
Been Liked: 1777 times
Has Liked: 2761 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Damo » Fri May 03, 2019 6:02 pm

AndrewJB wrote:And https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... ougov-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You posted the same link twice.
Is the other the results of the poll?

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Sat May 04, 2019 10:39 am

Damo wrote:You posted the same link twice.
Is the other the results of the poll?
Sorry - I was posting from my phone. I think this link is one that refers to the polls: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/antisemitis ... my-corbyn/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Damo
Posts: 4504
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:04 pm
Been Liked: 1777 times
Has Liked: 2761 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Damo » Sat May 04, 2019 11:06 am

AndrewJB wrote:Sorry - I was posting from my phone. I think this link is one that refers to the polls: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/antisemitis ... my-corbyn/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks for clearing that up. But have you seen who the author of that second piece is?
A confirmed racist.
I wouldn't take her word for anything when it comes go a subject like this. Or any subject for that matter
This user liked this post: jrtod61

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sun May 05, 2019 8:17 am

The group "Labour Against Anti-Semitism" has submitted a 15,000 page document about anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party which claims the problem is on a massive scale and there is a lack of will to face up to or challenge the racism it alleges.

Story in the Daily Mail:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ssier.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No doubt some other outlets will cover this too.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Tue May 07, 2019 10:56 am

android wrote:Hi Andrew - you seem like a good person to me and, when you wrote about education recently, I was thinking I would be happy to have you teach my kids - given that virtually every teacher seems to be a lefty!

But I genuinely believe that you are in denial about Corbyn. In post 226 you complained about certain newspapers obscuring and twisting facts regarding the wreath laying. I agree that they do this a lot but it was actually you doing it in post 226. You said that Corbyn was accompanied by a Tory and a Lib Dem. I don't think this is true. I believe they went to the same conference as him in Tunisia but I would be astonished if they were at the wreath laying. You also said that Corbyn was laying a wreath to innocent bombing victims. Corbyn himself admitted in the Morning Star at the time that the wreath laying was for both those victims and also for those killed by Mossad in Paris (i.e. the terrorists). It just so happens that the wreath that Corbyn is seen handling in photos is the one in front of the terrorist memorial and 15 yards away from the bomb victims memorial. It is when this evidence was produced that Corbyn changed his story to the ridiculous "I was present but I don't think I was involved".

If you had asked me a year or so ago whether Corbyn was anti-Semitic I would probably have said no - he is just highly tolerant of it from people who agree with his causes. But now? I actually believe he is anti-Semitic. I don't doubt that he believes he is not. One factor is his lack of action on anti-Semitism in his party - just how tolerant do you have to be before you justify the label yourself. The second factor is the other information that has come to light about Corbyn himself. There is the mural and also his dismissal of the British Jew as "they" do not understand irony or our British sense of humour (can't remember his exact words). Any chance he would have said this about any other race? I get your point about the book foreword and Hobson being from a different era. But according to Finkelstein in the Times part of Corbyn's foreword referenced the section in which Jews were referred to as "a single and peculiar race". Whatever the era, do you think there is any chance that Corbyn would have been associated with a book that described black people in this way?
You're right that I was mistaken in believing that he was accompanied to the cemetery (as opposed to just the conference). The person who told me this - who I probably misheard, because they're usually very accurate - also said other Labour figures have been to the same cemetery without accusations of anti-Semitism.

As for Corbyn himself, it would be strange were he anti-Semitic without being aware of it (for me an even greater leap of reason to imagine someone who has campaigned for decades for social, religious, racial and economic justice to turn out to have it in for a particular group), but then I would imagine that applying the same standard across the political board would find all politicians guilty of one thing or another.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Tue May 07, 2019 10:58 am

Damo wrote:Thanks for clearing that up. But have you seen who the author of that second piece is?
A confirmed racist.
I wouldn't take her word for anything when it comes go a subject like this. Or any subject for that matter
I quoted the article because it referenced the poll I was talking about. Is the woman racist - as in is this a fact, or just your opinion? I'm not familiar with her, but even if she is racist, it doesn't change the fact of the polls.

Damo
Posts: 4504
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:04 pm
Been Liked: 1777 times
Has Liked: 2761 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Damo » Tue May 07, 2019 11:40 am

AndrewJB wrote:I quoted the article because it referenced the poll I was talking about. Is the woman racist - as in is this a fact, or just your opinion? I'm not familiar with her, but even if she is racist, it doesn't change the fact of the polls.
I would research her and form your own opinion, but yeah, she's racist.

Also in not saying what you said was wrong about the polls. I'm just not going to take her word for it

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Thu May 09, 2019 6:17 am

Interesting article concerning Jeremy Corbyn in today's Spectator:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/i ... i-semitic/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This user liked this post: AndrewJB

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Thu May 09, 2019 6:58 am

I wonder how Rowls missed this (obviously, I don’t really)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... alex-jones" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This user liked this post: longsidepies

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Thu May 09, 2019 12:07 pm

Rowls wrote:Interesting article concerning Jeremy Corbyn in today's Spectator:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/i ... i-semitic/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A good, and fair argument in my opinion.

Test User
Posts: 419
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:07 pm
Been Liked: 89 times
Has Liked: 34 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Test User » Thu May 09, 2019 12:12 pm

Damo wrote:I would research her and form your own opinion, but yeah, she's racist.

Also in not saying what you said was wrong about the polls. I'm just not going to take her word for it
Assuming you don't mind me asking, in your view what did she do/say that makes her racist?

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sun May 12, 2019 1:22 pm

corporal jones wrote:Can someone help me out. The news is full of the Labour party's apparent problem with anti semetism, but as yet I haven't heard any reports of what specific anti Semitic acts have taken place. I have no particular political axe to grind by the way. Is it just that the Westminster elite think it's important and don't realise that the rest of the country is more concerned with getting through life at the moment. The Labour Party is a lot of things, but racist?
Hi again corporal jones

Here's the latest incident to occur:

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jewi ... r-1.484043" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You're welcome

Rowls

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 15, 2019 1:31 am

corporal jones wrote:Can someone help me out. The news is full of the Labour party's apparent problem with anti semetism, but as yet I haven't heard any reports of what specific anti Semitic acts have taken place. I have no particular political axe to grind by the way. Is it just that the Westminster elite think it's important and don't realise that the rest of the country is more concerned with getting through life at the moment. The Labour Party is a lot of things, but racist?
Here's another interesting article which summarizes the current state of the problem of anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/l ... -to-shock/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Test User
Posts: 419
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:07 pm
Been Liked: 89 times
Has Liked: 34 times

Re: Anti semetism

Post by Test User » Wed May 15, 2019 10:18 am

You're like a Tory bot. Ignore the problems of your own party and criticise the opposition leader for the racism in his party. And never deviate. It's so transparent you could end up being sponsored by Windolene.

Also, notice how Damo yet again has refused to answer a simple question about his opinion.

Locked