Anti semetism

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Cryssys
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Cryssys » Wed May 15, 2019 11:32 am

Test User wrote:You're like a Tory bot. Ignore the problems of your own party and criticise the opposition leader for the racism in his party. And never deviate. It's so transparent you could end up being sponsored by Windolene.

Deviation:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ndon-lewis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rowls
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 15, 2019 11:49 am

Test User wrote:You're like a Tory bot. Ignore the problems of your own party and criticise the opposition leader for the racism in his party. And never deviate. It's so transparent you could end up being sponsored by Windolene.
We've had this several times on this thread - the topic of this thread is anti-semitism in the Labour Party. Some people think think is a problem, some want to ignore it and some want to claim it isn't a problem.

As the last article states, these allegations are becoming so regular that people are now ignoring them.

If you want to start a thread about the Conservative party go ahead.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Spijed » Wed May 15, 2019 12:13 pm

Rowls wrote:If you want to start a thread about the Conservative party go ahead.
A bit pointless as you've already said there is hardly any racism in the Tory party.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Test User » Wed May 15, 2019 12:29 pm

Spijed wrote:A bit pointless as you've already said there is hardly any racism in the Tory party.
There is, it's just that he doesn't call it racism when it in the Conservative party.

Rowls
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 15, 2019 12:39 pm

Spijed wrote:A bit pointless as you've already said there is hardly any racism in the Tory party.
That might be true but I don't recall saying it and it's off topic.

Once again, feel free to start a topic about, for example, "Islamophobia in the Conservative Party" and we'll see how it fares.

This thread started because somebody doubted there were instances of anti-semitism in the Labour Party. Corporal jones seemingly couldn't believe there were any racists in the Labour Party - presumably some kind of assumption that Labour are the "good guys". Who knows?

I've provided corporal jones with plenty of possible examples of anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

Whether all these examples amount to an anti-semitism problem in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party hasn't been discussed by myself. I've left it for others to decide that. I've posted an article defending Jeremy Corbyn too.

We've had corroborating evidence of infiltration by anti-semites from members of the Labour Party.

But I hope we're beyond the stage where people doubt that these allegations are completely without basis or simply being made up, as the OP implied. I haven't found difficulty finding plenty of examples for me to pick from. I haven't even searched for them - I've simply posted them when I became aware of them through my twitter feed.

The allegations keep coming too - Private Eye are reporting that another dossier of internal Labour Party documents may shortly be about to be made public in a bid to shame Jeremy Corbyn.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Spijed » Wed May 15, 2019 12:59 pm

Rowls wrote:I've provided corporal jones with plenty of possible examples of anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

What on earth are 'possible examples'?

There is either evidence or there isn't.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Wed May 15, 2019 1:01 pm

Rowls wrote:I'm doing my best to keep this thread on topic and nothing more. This is a messageboard after all and it's generally considered polite to stick to the topic in question.

If people want a "Rowls' Opinions on X" thread, or an "Islamophobia" thread, or any other kind of thread they are very welcome to start one.

I've said this numerous times but nobody has taken up the offer so far.
That would be a bit more believable if the comment that you'd avoided from me hadn't been about anti-semitism in the Labour party. Given that it was, that's not a great excuse.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 15, 2019 1:31 pm

Spijed wrote:What on earth are 'possible examples'?

There is either evidence or there isn't.
Examples of alleged anti-semitism does not automatically equate to it actually being anti-semitism. And neither does the number of allegation necessarily mean there is a problem with anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

I took corporal jones request for more information on the topic at face value and now, in a short space of time, people who perhaps had not heard the allegations have lots and lot of allegations on this thread which they can use to form an opinion.

On the previous page, I helped a poster who has extreme difficulty forming opinions to start to begin to form the outlines of a possible opinion.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 15, 2019 1:32 pm

aggi wrote:That would be a bit more believable if the comment that you'd avoided from me hadn't been about anti-semitism in the Labour party. Given that it was, that's not a great excuse.
You'll have to remind me of this exchange. I'm not aware of it.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Wed May 15, 2019 1:51 pm

Rowls wrote:You'll have to remind me of this exchange. I'm not aware of it.
Here you go http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... 00#p998520" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 15, 2019 1:54 pm

aggi wrote:Here you go http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... 00#p998520" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The answer is that these incidents (historic and otherwise) are coming -almost universally- from supporters of Jeremy Corbyn (as opposed to other Labour factions) and centre around the Momentum group which supports him and people he has promoted in the Labour Party.

This is not, for example, a bevy of allegations being levied at Tom Watson's beleaguered Labour faction.

Even by your own admission, these allegations centre around Jeremy Corbyn.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Test User » Wed May 15, 2019 1:58 pm

Rowls wrote:The answer is that these incidents (historic and otherwise) are coming -almost universally- from supporters of Jeremy Corbyn (as opposed to other Labour factions) and centre around the Momentum group which supports him and people he has promoted in the Labour Party.

This is not, for example, a bevy of allegations being levied at Tom Watson's beleaguered Labour faction.

Even by your own admission, these allegations centre around Jeremy Corbyn.

Interesting. So now you believe that racism from the supporters of someone tarnishes them, and that they should be held responsible for it.

I'll remember that for future reference.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 15, 2019 2:00 pm

Test User wrote:Interesting. So now you believe that racism from the supporters of someone tarnishes them, and that they should be held responsible for it.

I'll remember that for future reference.
"So what you're saying is...."

No.

That's not at all what I've said anywhere.

I have every confidence that intelligent people are capable of making this distinction.

Thank you for joining the debate though.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Wed May 15, 2019 2:03 pm

Cryssys wrote:Deviation:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ndon-lewis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some of this is truly shocking. Perhaps not so much a local party "riven from top to bottom with racism", but that the party chairman doesn't act on these claims stains the whole party.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Test User » Wed May 15, 2019 2:12 pm

Rowls wrote:"So what you're saying is...."

No.

That's not at all what I've said anywhere.

I have every confidence that intelligent people are capable of making this distinction.

Thank you for joining the debate though.

But you just defended attaching anti-semitism to Jeremy Corbyn, and not the previous leaders, based on the fact that some of the anti-semitism came from people who are now his supporters. Do i need to quote it for you? Do i need to draw you a diagram explaining how this fairly simple logic works?


Here:
Rowls wrote:The answer is that these incidents (historic and otherwise) are coming -almost universally- from supporters of Jeremy Corbyn (as opposed to other Labour factions) and centre around the Momentum group which supports him and people he has promoted in the Labour Party.
It was pointed out to you earlier in this thread that you never had a problem with antisemitism in Labour under previous leaders, and that it's only now that you're concerned by it. When it was pointed out to you that the antisemitism you say is concerning in "Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party" actually occurred under "[previous leaders] Labour Party" and you never complained about it then, you then defended that by saying that the antisemitism then is from people who are Corbyn supporters now.

This means that you are using other peoples antisemitism against Jeremy Corbyn based on the fact that they are supporters of him.

Don't get me wrong, i'm fine with that. For a long time I've treated the people who pander to racists and their racist beliefs as equally as bad as the racists. But oddly when I did it in the past it has been people who sound very much like yourself who have said that it is unfair for me to tarnish the political leader with the views of the people from whom they seek and welcome support.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Wed May 15, 2019 3:19 pm

Rowls wrote:The answer is that these incidents (historic and otherwise) are coming -almost universally- from supporters of Jeremy Corbyn (as opposed to other Labour factions) and centre around the Momentum group which supports him and people he has promoted in the Labour Party.

This is not, for example, a bevy of allegations being levied at Tom Watson's beleaguered Labour faction.

Even by your own admission, these allegations centre around Jeremy Corbyn.
So what you're saying is that antisemitism that may have occurred in 2014 (or earlier) wasn't the fault of the labour party or its leadership at the time?

The labour party has had a problem with being perceived as anti-semitic for many years (look at Maureen Lipman saying that the party was anti-semitic under Ed Milliband for instance, Nazir Ahmed or multiple Ken Livingstone instances).

Possibly this has got worse under Corbyn, possibly it appears worse because 15 years ago no-one would have known what a random labour councillor's view on Jews was because they didn't have twitter to spread it worldwide, possibly more is being highlighted as the party is trying harder to combat it.

Personally I don't think I have enough information to judge this. It's clear however that you've made your mind that it's all attributable to Corbyn and earlier instances can be ignored.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Test User » Wed May 15, 2019 3:23 pm

aggi wrote:So what you're saying is that antisemitism that may have occurred in 2014 (or earlier) wasn't the fault of the labour party or its leadership at the time?

The labour party has had a problem with being perceived as anti-semitic for many years (look at Maureen Lipman saying that the party was anti-semitic under Ed Milliband for instance, Nazir Ahmed or multiple Ken Livingstone instances).

Possibly this has got worse under Corbyn, possibly it appears worse because 15 years ago no-one would have known what a random labour councillor's view on Jews was because they didn't have twitter to spread it worldwide, possibly more is being highlighted as the party is trying harder to combat it.

Personally I don't think I have enough information to judge this. It's clear however that you've made your mind that it's all attributable to Corbyn and earlier instances can be ignored.
Corbyn himself expressed privately that he was worried that antisemitism in his party was being covered up. If you're an antisemite and want to protect other antisemites then you aren't worried when it gets covered up, you want it to be covered up from public view.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by South West Claret. » Wed May 15, 2019 3:28 pm

If people want more evidence that the media (apart form a couple of papers) are under the control of Right Wing proprietors than it's the length of this thread.

People do stop swallowing this RW propaganda for all our sakes :!:
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 15, 2019 4:03 pm

Test User wrote:But you just defended attaching anti-semitism to Jeremy Corbyn, and not the previous leaders, based on the fact that some of the anti-semitism came from people who are now his supporters. Do i need to quote it for you? Do i need to draw you a diagram explaining how this fairly simple logic works?
The fact that you thought enough to include "attaching" in the above quote explains the distinction you have missed; I am not accusing Jeremy Corbyn or his supporters of anti-semitism, I am merely highlighting the numerous accusations.

It is not me who is "attaching" accusations of anti-semitism against Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters. The people who are "attaching" the accusations appear to come from many backgrounds - Conservatives, journalism, Labour party members, ex-Labour Party members, Labour Party MPs, ex-Labour Party MPs.
Test User wrote:It was pointed out to you earlier in this thread that you never had a problem with antisemitism in Labour under previous leaders, and that it's only now that you're concerned by it. When it was pointed out to you that the antisemitism you say is concerning in "Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party" actually occurred under "[previous leaders] Labour Party" and you never complained about it then, you then defended that by saying that the antisemitism then is from people who are Corbyn supporters now.
I was not aware of widespread anti-semitism or even accusations of widespread anti-semitism in the Labour Party until Jeremy Corbyn took over. I have challenged anti-semitism in the past and have noticed it on many "far-left" "extreme left" antifa demonstrations in the past.

It concerned me (I alerted the police to incidents on one occasion) and it concerns me now.

The idea that I am uniquely only opposed to anti-semitism if it somehow stems from Jeremy Corbyn supporters is bizarre and untrue.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 15, 2019 4:04 pm

South West Claret. wrote:If people want more evidence that the media (apart form a couple of papers) are under the control of Right Wing proprietors than it's the length of this thread.

People do stop swallowing this RW propaganda for all our sakes :!:
You think there is a media conspiracy, perhaps?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by South West Claret. » Wed May 15, 2019 4:11 pm

Wrong word used.

Namely because it is not a "secret" and hasn't been for quite some time now and excepted by the majority of well balanced thinking people.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Test User » Wed May 15, 2019 4:22 pm

Rowls wrote: I am not accusing Jeremy Corbyn or his supporters of anti-semitism, I am merely highlighting the numerous accusations.
Oh really? Only highlighting accusations? Not accusing?

*Cracks fingers*




Rowls wrote:Whereabouts do you live corporal jones? Wherever you're stuck I hope you don't live under a hard place, that would be awful.

Anyway, here's a piece which chronicles some (but certainly not all, and certainly not the instances committed by minor Labour party members)

Warning - before clicking on the link be aware that this is a piece of journalism written by the "MSM" and I think we all know what that means *nudge nudge* *wink wink*

Your Helpful Guide To Antisemitism in the Labour Party:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45030552" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I suppose you meant to say "Your Helpful Guide To the Evidence of Antisemitism in the Labour Party"

Rowls wrote:Here's the latest incident being investigated corporal jones:

https://order-order.com/2019/03/08/labo ... semistism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Happy to keep you updated with all things anti-semitic in the Labour party.

You're welcome.
I suppose you meant to say "Happy to keep you updated with all things that might be anti-semitic in the Labour party."

Rowls wrote:The OP put out a request to discover instances of antisemitism in the Labour party and I am providing them in response.

There's no condescension and no 'whataboutery' from me - I am providing links with evidence of antisemitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party. In response to a request for them.

Feel free to declare these instances as some kind of "Jewish conspiracy" or part of an "orchestrated attack" on Jeremy Corbyn if you will.

I am providing them with as little comment as possible.

I suppose you meant to say "The OP put out a request to discover evidence of antisemitism in the Labour party and I am providing them in response."


I got bored part way down page two of this thread, so that's all the proof i could find that you are backpeddling, or just lying, Either way, it's enough. If credibility could be counted yours would be into negative digits by now.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Tue May 28, 2019 12:37 pm

It would appear that the "right wing propaganda", "media conspiracy" and trouble-making designed purely to undermine Jeremy Corbyn has spread far and wide....

It has even spread to an organisation called the EHRC, the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

Today they have opened a formal investigation into accusations of anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/ ... tisemitism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Tue May 28, 2019 12:53 pm

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party become the first political party to be investigated by the EHRC since the BNP.

https://twitter.com/margarethodge/statu ... 2304043009" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Tue May 28, 2019 12:56 pm

It would appear lifelong (until today) Labour member Alistair Campbell is concerned at how anti-semitism is (or isn't) dealt with in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

He has highlighted the problem in a series of tweets following his expulsion from the party:

https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/stat ... 4589373445" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Campbell: "In light of appeal, I won't be doing media on this. But hard not to point out difference in the way anti-Semitism cases have been handled."

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by IanMcL » Tue May 28, 2019 2:00 pm

I suggest that, 'I can't make my mind up' resigns as the mon-leader of the Labour Party.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Tue May 28, 2019 5:10 pm

Rowls wrote:Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party become the first political party to be investigated by the EHRC since the BNP.

https://twitter.com/margarethodge/statu ... 2304043009" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48434202" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh look - soon to be joined by the Conservative Party.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Spijed » Tue May 28, 2019 6:33 pm

Rowls wrote:It would appear lifelong (until today) Labour member Alistair Campbell is concerned at how anti-semitism is (or isn't) dealt with in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

He has highlighted the problem in a series of tweets following his expulsion from the party:

https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/stat ... 4589373445" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Campbell: "In light of appeal, I won't be doing media on this. But hard not to point out difference in the way anti-Semitism cases have been handled."
Rowls, your posts on the subject are getting tiresome. Put the rod away.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by South West Claret. » Tue May 28, 2019 6:36 pm

Ha ha more like anti-Corbinism from the usual suspects.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by tiger76 » Wed May 29, 2019 12:28 am

AndrewJB wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48434202

Oh look - soon to be joined by the Conservative Party.
Yes saw this news,is it not an embarrassment to our nation,that our 2 principal political parties are both mired in anti-semitism and islamophobia allegations.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 29, 2019 1:55 am

AndrewJB wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48434202

Oh look - soon to be joined by the Conservative Party.
We shall see, we shall see.

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour
All of the incidents listed on this thread
MPs resigning the party because of the issue
Jewish Labour groups cataloguing incident after incident
Front page news in broadsheet papers and on BBC
Accusations that allegations are ignored, covered up or go unpunished
EHRC opening a formal invesigation

Conservative Party
Baroness Warsi says there is a problem
Muslim Council of Great Britain calling for an inquiry


Perhaps there is a strong equivalence between these things. Or maybe it is a false equivalence.

As I've told many people on this thread, you are free to start an "Islamophobia in the Conservative Party" and list incidents; just as I have done.

If there is a true equivalence I'm sure you'll be able to post incident after incident without even looking for them; just as I did.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 29, 2019 1:57 am

tiger76 wrote:Yes saw this news,is it not an embarrassment to our nation,that our 2 principal political parties are both mired in anti-semitism and islamophobia allegations.
The Conservative Party is not "mired" in the allegations - the allegations exist but I am unaware of any concrete allegations.

The allegations aimed at the Conservative Party stem from one woman (Baroness Warsi) and one organisation of dubious repute (the self-proclaimed Muslim Council of Great Britain).

See above for a further analysis but if people want to suggest the Conservative Party is "mired" in allegations of racism then I suggest starting a thread and listing the incidents as has been done here.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed May 29, 2019 2:09 am

AndrewJB wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48434202

Oh look - soon to be joined by the Conservative Party.
Looking into this further it seems the MCB complaint to the EHRC draws on two examples of public campaigning by Boris Johnson and Zach Goldsmith. Boris Johnson has been cleared by the Conservative Party and no official complaint is even mentioned against Zach Goldsmith - simply that the MCB did not like his comments.

The complaint handed to the EHRC drew on documented evidence running to 150,000 pages of written evidence detailing numerous incidents which included Labour's internal procedures which are supposed to stop racism.

So there's a big difference in the evidence here:

The complaint about the Conservatives hinges on public comments, made whilst actively politically campaigning. Everybody knows what Boris and Zach said because they are fairly high profile politicians.
The complaints about the Labour Party hinge on numerous incidents, made largely -but not exclusively- by members and lower profile MPs and councillors and include private documents which, it is alleged, demonstrate the Labour Party failing to tackle anti-semitism.

So whether people think these complaints are equivalent will be up to them but there is a massive difference in the type of allegation and in the scale of them also.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Wed May 29, 2019 8:13 am

Rowls wrote:Looking into this further it seems the MCB complaint to the EHRC draws on two examples of public campaigning by Boris Johnson and Zach Goldsmith. Boris Johnson has been cleared by the Conservative Party and no official complaint is even mentioned against Zach Goldsmith - simply that the MCB did not like his comments.

The complaint handed to the EHRC drew on documented evidence running to 150,000 pages of written evidence detailing numerous incidents which included Labour's internal procedures which are supposed to stop racism.

So there's a big difference in the evidence here:

The complaint about the Conservatives hinges on public comments, made whilst actively politically campaigning. Everybody knows what Boris and Zach said because they are fairly high profile politicians.
The complaints about the Labour Party hinge on numerous incidents, made largely -but not exclusively- by members and lower profile MPs and councillors and include private documents which, it is alleged, demonstrate the Labour Party failing to tackle anti-semitism.

So whether people think these complaints are equivalent will be up to them but there is a massive difference in the type of allegation and in the scale of them also.
If you want to play down or dismiss the racism within the Tory party, may I suggest you start another thread to do so? This thread is for spurious accusations against Jeremy Corbyn and nothing else.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed May 29, 2019 8:24 am

This is why I love Rowls threads. He just can't remember what he posted and he's in knots before you know it.

I predict another "mysterious loss of log in details" leading to a mysterious disappearance for about three weeks.

To be fair, he's not the only one who does that, I mean, the "Dyche is rubbish" lot only appear after a defeat.

Must be an internet thing.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by RMutt » Wed May 29, 2019 8:33 am

Rowls wrote:
one organisation of dubious repute (the self-proclaimed Muslim Council of Great Britain).
An interesting choice of words for that description Rowls. You wouldn’t want to be using language of that tone about The Board of Deputies or similar or you might find yourself mired in the same mess as your examples.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Wed May 29, 2019 9:50 am

There's a great deal of hypocrisy in the Tory party. On anti-Semitism it wasn't until after they had accused the Labour Party of anti-Semitism for not including all the examples under the IHRA definition, that they actually included these definitions themselves. From the Commons Library:

Finally, on 18 July 2018, the Prime Minister was asked in the Commons if she agreed that “all political parties should adopt [the IHRA] definition, and its examples, without amendments or omissions?”

Theresa May replied:

“We should all sign up, as the Conservative Party has, to the definition of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance and all its annexes.”

At that point, however, the Conservative Party’s code of conduct did not explicitly mention the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, although it was later updated to make it clear that its provision against discrimination based upon “religion or belief” should be “interpreted as fully adopting the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of anti-Semitism which the Conservative Party adopted in December 2016”. The larger link here: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/ho ... isemitism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; That would be the Conservative Party levelling accusations and then pencilling on the the end of their own definition "yeah, and what that Jewish group said too"

So for Rowls my first question is what is your definition of Islamophobia? We know the government rejected the all party parliamentary group's definition a few weeks ago, so we should perhaps clear this up before we discuss the hundreds of allegations of Islamophobia directed against Conservative Party members.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48283337" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Wed May 29, 2019 10:24 am

Rowls wrote:We shall see, we shall see.

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour
All of the incidents listed on this thread
MPs resigning the party because of the issue
Jewish Labour groups cataloguing incident after incident
Front page news in broadsheet papers and on BBC
Accusations that allegations are ignored, covered up or go unpunished
EHRC opening a formal invesigation

Conservative Party
Baroness Warsi says there is a problem
Muslim Council of Great Britain calling for an inquiry


Perhaps there is a strong equivalence between these things. Or maybe it is a false equivalence.

As I've told many people on this thread, you are free to start an "Islamophobia in the Conservative Party" and list incidents; just as I have done.

If there is a true equivalence I'm sure you'll be able to post incident after incident without even looking for them; just as I did.
I've got to say I thought you paid a bit of a closer attention to politics so I'm surprised that you can't remember any examples. Boris Johnson has had a few and there have been plenty of others.

I'd have thought you'd at least have seen the story on the conservatives not being willing to adopt the working definition of Islamophobia (I'm not convinced that this is Islamophobia but if the labour equivalent was anti-semitism then I guess it would be classed as such). Maybe these 14 members (not high profile politicians) who were suspended suggest it's a bit more widespread https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... lamophobia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , or these 40 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tory-posts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; these 15 who were reinstated https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... reinstated" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; etc.

Maybe the fact that you've missed them all is evidence that there is a media conspiracy against Corbyn and the Labour party and the Tory equivalent hasn't been highlighted (surely that's more likely than you've just been looking for anti-semitism stories and ignoring the islamophobic ones).

Although I guess maybe your memory just isn't what it is. You did struggle to remember any anti-semitic incidents in the Labour party before 2015, even though you'd posted them on this very thread.

It's good to see that you've been learning your defence from the Momentum playbook though. Insist there isn't an issue, if there is it's a one-off and not systemic and then attack those making the accusations rather than the substance of the accusations.

I don't think many who followed it at the time (including conservatives http://www.conservativehome.com/platfor ... -khan.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) would deny that Goldsmith ran a negative campaign with a large emphasis on Khan being a Muslim and why that was bad (entertainingly he'd have had a pretty good chance of winning if his campaigning tactics hadn't been so transparent).
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Wed May 29, 2019 10:26 am

Overall though, we're in a **** position. Both of the main parties accused in the UK accused of (and probably to some extent, guilty of) racism and partisan politicians and party members trying to brush it under the carpet or say that it isn't an issue because other parties are worse rather than concentrating their efforts on actually fixing the problem.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri May 31, 2019 12:41 am

android wrote:You may not be defending anti-Semitism but it is obvious that you, Greenmile, AndrewJB and others are choosing to ignore the evidence of anti-Semitism because it rightly paints Corbyn in a very bad light.

This is one of the more dumb posts you've made. I have no reason to either ignore antisemitism or care that Corbyn is painted in a bad light.I just don't respect many of the arguments because they have no merit as arguments. If you can't look back at my posts and realise that now that I've pointed it out to you then you're not qualified to critique anything I say.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri May 31, 2019 11:02 am

Going really well for Labour this.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by HatfieldClaret » Fri May 31, 2019 1:07 pm

Pete Willsman, Labour NEC, the gift that just keeps on giving..... :shock:

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 31, 2019 2:59 pm

Bump

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48472977" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by South West Claret. » Fri May 31, 2019 3:38 pm

Read Jezzers article on page 4 and then tell us the Labour Party /Jeremy Corbyn is anti semitic.

Sorry no link found on their website but still might be one.

ED: Article is on page 4 of the Journal.
Last edited by South West Claret. on Fri May 31, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri May 31, 2019 3:41 pm

Rowls wrote:Bump

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48472977" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's interesting. I disagree with him, there are certainly anti-semites in our political parties and they should be exposed. However, suspending him for criticising the Israeli embassy for something he believes they're up to does suggest that those of us who think that criticism of Israel is being increasingly silenced as "antisemitism" have a point.

But feel free to explain how what he said was anti-Semitic.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Fri May 31, 2019 4:07 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It's interesting. I disagree with him, there are certainly anti-semites in our political parties and they should be exposed. However, suspending him for criticising the Israeli embassy for something he believes they're up to does suggest that those of us who think that criticism of Israel is being increasingly silenced as "antisemitism" have a point.

But feel free to explain how what he said was anti-Semitic.
Agreed.

There certainly are two camps emerging:

1. Those who think all this talk of "Israeli" conspiracies could be seen as evidence of anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party

2. "Nothing to see here folks. Just legitimate criticism of Israel."

It would appear more and more former Labour Party members are falling into the first camp. The latest being Alistair Campbell.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri May 31, 2019 4:38 pm

Rowls wrote:Agreed.

There certainly are two camps emerging:

1. Those who think all this talk of "Israeli" conspiracies could be seen as evidence of anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party

2. "Nothing to see here folks. Just legitimate criticism of Israel."

It would appear more and more former Labour Party members are falling into the first camp. The latest being Alistair Campbell.
you're ignoring probably the largest "camp", those who think that antisemitism is real and a problem, and that people who are criticising Israel are being accused of antisemitism for doing so. But i guess that camp doesn't fit your agenda too well.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Erasmus » Fri May 31, 2019 5:21 pm

Quite clearly what Willsman has said is not anti-semitic. It is not racist to suggest that a country is using a particular tactic to discredit a political party that is highly critical of its policies.

Criticism of Israel is opposition to racism because the policies of the state of Israel in relation to the Palestinians are themselves racist.

I don't whether or not Willsman is correct in his accusations against the Israeli embassy. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was right, but even if he is wrong there is nothing racist in what he is saying.

Rowls, unfortunately, doesn't seem to understand what anti-semitism really is and as a result he keeps getting confused over the distinction between anti-zionism and anti-semitism. It's not that hard to grasp and so one is bound to suspect that the obfuscation is deliberate.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Corky » Fri May 31, 2019 5:33 pm

Erasmus wrote:Quite clearly what Willsman has said is not anti-semitic. It is not racist to suggest that a country is using a particular tactic to discredit a political party that is highly critical of its policies.

Criticism of Israel is opposition to racism because the policies of the state of Israel in relation to the Palestinians are themselves racist.

I don't whether or not Willsman is correct in his accusations against the Israeli embassy. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was right, but even if he is wrong there is nothing racist in what he is saying.

Rowls, unfortunately, doesn't seem to understand what anti-semitism really is and as a result he keeps getting confused over the distinction between anti-zionism and anti-semitism. It's not that hard to grasp and so one is bound to suspect that the obfuscation is deliberate.
Absolutely spot on. What we are seeing here is an attempt at stifling free speech.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Spijed » Fri May 31, 2019 5:44 pm

Rowls wrote:Agreed.

There certainly are two camps emerging:

1. Those who think all this talk of "Israeli" conspiracies could be seen as evidence of anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party

2. "Nothing to see here folks. Just legitimate criticism of Israel."

It would appear more and more former Labour Party members are falling into the first camp. The latest being Alistair Campbell.
Rowls, considering it's supposed to be in a party that you clearly would never vote for why are you the slightest bit concerned?

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