Anti semetism

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thatdberight
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by thatdberight » Fri May 31, 2019 8:17 pm

What does the following element of the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism mean?
"Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination."

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri May 31, 2019 8:27 pm

As far as I can see, this is about as clear anti-semitism as it gets (well, not as clear as being a guard at Auschwitz, but still clear)

He might as well have just said "its all a zionist conspiracy"

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Fri May 31, 2019 8:56 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:As far as I can see, this is about as clear anti-semitism as it gets (well, not as clear as being a guard at Auschwitz, but still clear)

He might as well have just said "its all a zionist conspiracy"
Hi might have been referring to this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ups-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by PutTheWheelieBinsOut » Fri May 31, 2019 9:51 pm

Meanwhile in Germany, German Jews have been advised by their own government not to wear kippahs in public. It's unbelievable that some people cant wait to hand over the keys to every state over to a powerful German dominated Europe superstate.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/26/euro ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri May 31, 2019 10:03 pm

Yep the rise in Isolationism, Nationalism and Far Right politics across Europe really is leading us into some dark times

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by If it be your will » Fri May 31, 2019 10:14 pm

.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri May 31, 2019 10:18 pm

PutTheWheelieBinsOut wrote:Meanwhile in Germany, German Jews have been advised by their own government not to wear kippahs in public. It's unbelievable that some people cant wait to hand over the keys to every state over to a powerful German dominated Europe superstate.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/26/euro ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Er, what?

Oh, its just UKIP ******** and pretending to care about Jews.

Carry on!

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri May 31, 2019 10:21 pm

If it be your will wrote:He might as well, yes. But considering zionism is a political position, and not a race or ethno-religion, saying that wouldn't have been antisemitic either.

But I think the Labour right might have got their man this time. Under IHRA, he could be struggling here, could Willsman.
You sound disappointed, which I hope isn't the case.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by PutTheWheelieBinsOut » Fri May 31, 2019 10:53 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Er, what?

Oh, its just UKIP ******** and pretending to care about Jews.

Carry on!
What's UKIP got to do with anything?, you absolute mad man. What next for the Jews in Germany, maybe they will be asked to fix yellow stars to their clothing.

But moving on those sweet innocent German's just give money to poorer countries because they are a nice and cuddly people, nothing to do with encouraging dependence and seeking to buy power and influence in Europe, not one little bit, i'm sure. Lets just ignore everything and get those white flags out and just keep on chanting "remain" like a crazy lunatic, what will be your next chant "peace in our time" maybe?.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Fri May 31, 2019 11:33 pm

PutTheWheelieBinsOut wrote:What's UKIP got to do with anything?, you absolute mad man. What next for the Jews in Germany, maybe they will be asked to fix yellow stars to their clothing.

But moving on those sweet innocent German's just give money to poorer countries because they are a nice and cuddly people, nothing to do with encouraging dependence and seeking to buy power and influence in Europe, not one little bit, i'm sure. Lets just ignore everything and get those white flags out and just keep on chanting "remain" like a crazy lunatic, what will be your next chant "peace in our time" maybe?.
I've heard this argument before - that the EU is a means for the Germans to achieve the hegemony they failed to gain through war. I would say the institutions and rules of the EU stand in the way of that. The wealthiest nations subsidise the poorer ones, and do so without demanding anything back from the poorer countries in return. It's like an equalisation payment. And surely this is what Brexit supporters hate about our "overpayment" into the system? In the EU, Germany is just one of twenty-eight nations. And none of them are in the EU just to become client states of a larger country. This is where Brexiters make no sense. If we truly see Germany as continental threat, then our best interests are served by remaining in the EU and counterbalancing their power. Why on earth would we walk away from the table and put ourselves in a position of relative weakness? Or another way, why would we leave Germany with all the allies?
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:01 am

PutTheWheelieBinsOut wrote:What's UKIP got to do with anything?, you absolute mad man. What next for the Jews in Germany, maybe they will be asked to fix yellow stars to their clothing.

But moving on those sweet innocent German's just give money to poorer countries because they are a nice and cuddly people, nothing to do with encouraging dependence and seeking to buy power and influence in Europe, not one little bit, i'm sure. Lets just ignore everything and get those white flags out and just keep on chanting "remain" like a crazy lunatic, what will be your next chant "peace in our time" maybe?.
It's 2019, not 1943 my good man

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:03 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:It's 2019, not 1943 my good man
It is 2019, but all across Europe there are people with long memories. Hungarians who want the return of Transylvania from Romania. Poles who see Teschen and the Kresy as integral parts of their country. Italians who view the Ionian Islands as their birthright. Spaniards affronted by the Union Jack flying over Gibraltar. And Germans...where to start? Malmedy? Kaliningrad? Gdansk? I haven't even touched on the Balkans.

If countries were people, these would be the kind of repressed dark desires that normal people might seek therapy over. They would know that opening up these thoughts and obsessing over them is unhealthy, and unwise, and try to get on with their lives. It's the equivalent to stalking an ex, or brooding over a slight from school twenty or more years ago. But as we know, some people do it. They don't get help, and they allow their dark thoughts to hold sway over them. And they suffer for it.

Modern nationalist politics is the embodiment of those personal dark thoughts we all have.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:31 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:you're ignoring probably the largest "camp", those who think that antisemitism is real and a problem, and that people who are criticising Israel are being accused of antisemitism for doing so. But i guess that camp doesn't fit your agenda too well.
This all depends on what you think "my agenda" is and unfortunately you appear to be making this far more difficult for your little grey cells than is necessary - my agenda is simply to highlight incidents of anti-semitism (or alleged anti-semitism) in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party. As the OP requested.

If that simple fact is too difficult for you to grasp then you'll struggle to make *any* kind of sane or sensible opinions on this topic.
Erasmus wrote:Quite clearly what Willsman has said is not anti-semitic.
Despite getting "liked" by the happy triumvirate of South West Claret, Greenmile and ImplodiingTurtle it is not "clear" at all that what Willsman said is "not anti-semitic".

It's very much up for debate. In fact, the list of people who think what he said IS anti-semitic now includes LancasterClaret and Alistair Campbell.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:57 am

Rowls wrote:This all depends on what you think "my agenda" is and unfortunately you appear to be making this far more difficult for your little grey cells than is necessary - my agenda is simply to highlight incidents of anti-semitism (or alleged anti-semitism) in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party. As the OP requested.

If that simple fact is too difficult for you to grasp then you'll struggle to make *any* kind of sane or sensible opinions on this topic.



Despite getting "liked" by the happy triumvirate of South West Claret, Greenmile and ImplodiingTurtle it is not "clear" at all that what Willsman said is "not anti-semitic".

It's very much up for debate. In fact, the list of people who think what he said IS anti-semitic now includes LancasterClaret and Alistair Campbell.

If it was up for debate then you'd be able to accurately characterise what it was he said that might have been antisemitic, and why it might be antisemitic.

To me it clearly wasn't. He wasn't criticising Jews, he was criticising a nations embassy. The fact that you think they might be the same thing is pretty antisemitic in itself.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Erasmus » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:53 am

Rowls, if it is not at all 'clear', then you will surely be able explain how Willsman's statement can be taken as racist? I would appreciate it if you could provide that explanation; and citing others who hold a particular view does not amount to an explanation.

And I do wish you would drop your silly facade of having no agenda. It is quite obvious that you post these things and try to confuse the issues because you have a tribal loyalty to the Conservative Party and are seeking a means of discrediting your tribal enemies, the Labour Party. At least have the courage to come out and be honest enough to state your views and affiliations as this can give rise to a sensible discussion of what is a very important issue.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:37 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:If it was up for debate then you'd be able to accurately characterise what it was he said that might have been antisemitic, and why it might be antisemitic.

To me it clearly wasn't. He wasn't criticising Jews, he was criticising a nations embassy. The fact that you think they might be the same thing is pretty antisemitic in itself.
Nope, I normally agree with you IT but not on this one.

He's going down the global conspiracy route, which all of us know is used as an attack on Jews.

And he's a bright lad, and he'll know this, but he's done it anyway.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Erasmus » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:30 pm

Lancaster, I normally agree with what you post, but on this one I will have to disagree. What you are doing is assuming a racist motive for a non-racist statement. We have to accept that the words as they stand are not racist, but simply an accusation against the embassy of Israel. We might infer a racist motive from that statement, but inference is not the same as evidence directly perceived.

I would also say that it is quite a leap from a man accusing the Israeli embassy attempting to discredit a political party that is overtly hostile to its policies to asserting that there is any form of the global Jewish conspiracy line that was taken up by racists in the 20th century. Personally, I would say that it is quite likely that the Israeli embassy acted in the way that has been suggested. Does that make a racist or an adherent of any global Jewish conspiracy theory? I hope not.

I think we have to be careful to properly understand and define what is and what isn't racism, otherwise the field is wide open for right wingers like Rowls to undermine legitimate debate on the subject.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by android » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:21 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:This is one of the more dumb posts you've made. I have no reason to either ignore antisemitism or care that Corbyn is painted in a bad light.I just don't respect many of the arguments because they have no merit as arguments. If you can't look back at my posts and realise that now that I've pointed it out to you then you're not qualified to critique anything I say.
Just spotted this reply to my post from a month ago (I see you were banned - which I don't agree with). Straight back with the Turtle bingo though - excellent!
1) Name calling - check (but you were only calling my post dumb not me - yawn, this fools no-one but yourself). But please don't ban him mods it really is not a big deal it's nothing serious.
2) Denial of inconvenient truths - check
3) Unwarranted superiority complex - check

Of course you have reason to ignore antisemitism because it is a big problem for the left & main opposition party, which you either support or are sympathetic to, and you care about Corbyn for the same reason (used to support now just a sympathiser I think). Your insistence that you are neither biased in favour of Corbyn or biased against Trump is fascinating.

Telling me that I am not qualified to critique your posts is a gem and I needed a good laugh. I think it broadly translates as an excuse to disengage if I point out the flaws in some of your arguments.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:29 am

Erasmus wrote:Lancaster, I normally agree with what you post, but on this one I will have to disagree. What you are doing is assuming a racist motive for a non-racist statement. We have to accept that the words as they stand are not racist, but simply an accusation against the embassy of Israel. We might infer a racist motive from that statement, but inference is not the same as evidence directly perceived.

I would also say that it is quite a leap from a man accusing the Israeli embassy attempting to discredit a political party that is overtly hostile to its policies to asserting that there is any form of the global Jewish conspiracy line that was taken up by racists in the 20th century. Personally, I would say that it is quite likely that the Israeli embassy acted in the way that has been suggested. Does that make a racist or an adherent of any global Jewish conspiracy theory? I hope not.

I think we have to be careful to properly understand and define what is and what isn't racism, otherwise the field is wide open for right wingers like Rowls to undermine legitimate debate on the subject.
No probs Erasmus

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:34 am

George Galloway sacked by Talk Radio

https://twitter.com/HuffPostUKPol/statu ... 0315018240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As George Galloway is a career anti-semite, its a bit rich of the station to use that as an excuse!

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:40 pm

android wrote:...
1) Name calling - check (but you were only calling my post dumb not me - yawn, this fools no-one but yourself). But please don't ban him mods it really is not a big deal it's nothing serious.
...
This is hilarious to me. You actually acknowledge that i wasn't calling you names but you still claim to be a victim of name calling. You people are ******* ridiculous.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by android » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:31 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:This is hilarious to me. You actually acknowledge that i wasn't calling you names but you still claim to be a victim of name calling. You people are ******* ridiculous.
"a victim" "you people" - good stuff IT !

Regular readers are all very familiar with your routine. You calling a post dumb, stupid or idiotic carries no suggestion whatsoever that you think that person is dumb, stupid or an idiot. Keep repeating it, it's fine with me (and there are probably even a few who buy it).

And much better to address that than the blind spots I referred to.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:42 pm

android wrote:"a victim" "you people" - good stuff IT !

Regular readers are all very familiar with your routine. You calling a post dumb, stupid or idiotic carries no suggestion whatsoever that you think that person is dumb, stupid or an idiot. Keep repeating it, it's fine with me (and there are probably even a few who buy it).

And much better to address that than the blind spots I referred to.

I don't recall calling many of your opinions stupid/dumb/idiotic etc which suggests to me that you're not a regular purveyor of stupid/dumb/idiotic opinions. And if you're not a regular purveyor of stupid/dumb/idiotic opinions then that would suggest to me that you're not stupid, dumb or idiotic, just that occasionally you say stupid, dumb or idiotic things.

That said, opinions change, and if you're one of those people who when your opinion is criticised you take it this personally then, since i'm happy to admit when i'm wrong i'm more than willing to change my opinion about you. But what won't change is my choice of language, and if you post more stupid/dumb/idiotic opinions i will still only be calling your stupid/dumb/idiotic opinions "stupid", "dumb" or "idiotic", because no matter what you think that suggests i'm only addressing your opinion and not you personally. And if you're too emotionally attached to your stupid/dumb/idiotic opinions that you take it personally when they're mocked then that sounds like a you problem, not a me problem.

But hey, report me. Complain that i criticised your opinion and it made your user experience unpleasant. With the way this board is going your report might actually be upheld, as ridiculous as that would be.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:48 pm

Erasmus wrote:I think we have to be careful to properly understand and define what is and what isn't racism, otherwise the field is wide open for right wingers like Rowls to undermine legitimate debate on the subject.
"right wingers like Rowls" ... and LancasterClaret ... and Alistair Campbell ... and Tony Robinson ... Luciana Berger ... UK Labour Friends of Israel ... and on and on ...

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:52 pm

I'm pretty right wing when it comes to Israel Rowls.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:58 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm pretty right wing when it comes to Israel Rowls.
I doubt you are Lancaster. You might be supportive of Israel, but that's not a "right wing" position.

The problem I have is that erasmus is using a very weaselly phrase here; implying that I am "undermining legitimate debate".

He implies I am "undermining legitimate debate" without defining or saying what is "legitimate" and what is not.

Is he going to state what is "legitimate"?

Is his definition of "legitimate debate" racism simply another way of him saying "I'm uncomfortable with these accusations simply because they've been brought to our attention here by somebody who does not share my political allegiances"?

Perhaps he'll explain exactly what he finds to be "illegitimate" about me simply pointing out examples of allegations of anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

Perhaps he'll tell us all how I am "undermining" the fight against racism by highlighting possible examples of racism?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:George Galloway sacked by Talk Radio

https://twitter.com/HuffPostUKPol/statu ... 0315018240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As George Galloway is a career anti-semite, its a bit rich of the station to use that as an excuse!
Curious, I looked up what Galloway's record is on anti-Semitism, and found this blog from the Times of Israel (you may have to scroll down to Marc Goldberg's blog entitled; "Is George Galloway an anti-Semite?")

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/is-geor ... ntisemite/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I expected to find a long list of public pronouncements, however instead found a video in which Galloway answers a question during an Oxford Union talk, and then this answer is dissected in the blog by the writer for evidence of anti-Semitism. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's view on whether he's succeeded or not.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:07 pm

Rowls wrote:I doubt you are Lancaster. You might be supportive of Israel, but that's not a "right wing" position.

The problem I have is that erasmus is using a very weaselly phrase here; implying that I am "undermining legitimate debate".

He implies I am "undermining legitimate debate" without defining or saying what is "legitimate" and what is not.

Is he going to state what is "legitimate"?

Is his definition of "legitimate debate" racism simply another way of him saying "I'm uncomfortable with these accusations simply because they've been brought to our attention here by somebody who does not share my political allegiances"?

Perhaps he'll explain exactly what he finds to be "illegitimate" about me simply pointing out examples of allegations of anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

Perhaps he'll tell us all how I am "undermining" the fight against racism by highlighting possible examples of racism?

He's saying you're acting in bad faith. Because you are. You're not interested in debate, you're only interested in sliming those one one side of the debate. That's why you keep claiming to be only posting "potential" examples of antisemitism and not actually clear examples of antisemitism, and using it all to slime Corbyn and his party.

You're a cancer to any legitimate debate on the topic.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by android » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:29 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I don't recall calling many of your opinions stupid/dumb/idiotic etc which suggests to me that you're not a regular purveyor of stupid/dumb/idiotic opinions. And if you're not a regular purveyor of stupid/dumb/idiotic opinions then that would suggest to me that you're not stupid, dumb or idiotic, just that occasionally you say stupid, dumb or idiotic things.

That said, opinions change, and if you're one of those people who when your opinion is criticised you take it this personally then, since i'm happy to admit when i'm wrong i'm more than willing to change my opinion about you. But what won't change is my choice of language, and if you post more stupid/dumb/idiotic opinions i will still only be calling your stupid/dumb/idiotic opinions "stupid", "dumb" or "idiotic", because no matter what you think that suggests i'm only addressing your opinion and not you personally. And if you're too emotionally attached to your stupid/dumb/idiotic opinions that you take it personally when they're mocked then that sounds like a you problem, not a me problem.

But hey, report me. Complain that i criticised your opinion and it made your user experience unpleasant. With the way this board is going your report might actually be upheld, as ridiculous as that would be.
If your understanding of my posts was that I was taking criticism from you personally or having an unpleasant user experience then I think we need to apply some of your favourite words to your post! But I don't think you are being that stupid - you are just deflecting. It would have been less obvious if you had left out your last paragraph but the idea that I want you banned is bonkers - I made a point of clearing that up at the outset and there is nothing in any of my posts to suggest that I am remotely concerned about any words or criticism from you. (But you know that).

All I was really doing was picking you up for your refusal to see Corbyn's antisemitism (and yes, a little bit of teasing about your love of labelling and your tortuous explanations of the difference between labelling a post and a poster). But keep deflecting if you like.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:38 pm

Here's a good one to think about on the subject of antisemitism:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... e-galloway" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now this really is a close one. On the face of it, saying there'll be 'no Israeli flags on the cup' after Liverpool beat Tottenham instinctively feels very antisemitic. But Tottenham fans do use Israeli flags, and there's no explicit reference to Jews, just a country's flag. And, just to complicate things, Celtic were fined for flying a Palestinian flag.

It's a much closer call than most of the nonsense Rowls puts on this thread, but is this one a genuine case of antisemitism or not? I'm really not sure.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:00 pm

android wrote:If your understanding of my posts was that I was taking criticism from you personally or having an unpleasant user experience then I think we need to apply some of your favourite words to your post! But I don't think you are being that stupid - you are just deflecting. It would have been less obvious if you had left out your last paragraph but the idea that I want you banned is bonkers - I made a point of clearing that up at the outset and there is nothing in any of my posts to suggest that I am remotely concerned about any words or criticism from you. (But you know that).

All I was really doing was picking you up for your refusal to see Corbyn's antisemitism (and yes, a little bit of teasing about your love of labelling and your tortuous explanations of the difference between labelling a post and a poster). But keep deflecting if you like.
What antisemitism from Corbyn have I "refused" to see? Please share the examples that you think i have "refused" to acknowledge.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:01 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:He's saying you're acting in bad faith. Because you are.
I'll have to check my tinfoil hat. There must be a hole in it given you can read my thoughts.

Your logic would appear to be the same as erasmus'.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:04 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You're a cancer to any legitimate debate on the topic.
"legitimate debate"

No response required.

As has happened several times before on this thread, your words speak for themselves.

I shall not stop pointing out what could be racism and I shall not stop fighting racism when I see it. You of all people shall not cow me.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:06 pm

Rowls wrote:"legitimate debate"

No response required.

As has happened several times before on this thread, your words speak for themselves.

I shall not stop pointing out what could be racism and I shall not stop fighting racism when I see it. You of all people shall not cow me.
"I shall not stop pointing out what could be racism"

Yes you will. You'll stop when you see racism from the Conservatives. And then you'll start again when you see racism from Labour. Because that's how someone arguing in bad faith argues.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Spijed » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:30 pm

Rowls wrote:I shall not stop pointing out what could be racism and I shall not stop fighting racism when I see it.
That comment from you really does take the biscuit!

It really does!
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:35 pm

Spijed wrote:That comment from you really does take the biscuit!

It really does!
If you've convinced yourself that people of certain political beliefs are "the bad guys" or that people of other political beliefs are "the good guys" and therefore are incapable of being racist then I implore you to examine your own beliefs first.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:50 pm

Rowls will absolutely play down racism when it's convenient for him to do so.

Here he is complaining that a UN rep said that racism has grown in the UK since the EU referendum and implying that it's unfair to single out the UK for racism when there are worse countries in the world when it comes to racism.

Try doing that in this thread. Try suggesting that there are worse parties in the UK for racism than the Labour party and you'll see just how hypocritical he is.


Rowls wrote:The idea that the UN is some kind of temple of holiness, common-sense and inherently virtuous is ridiculous.

Just check out this report from the UN:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... esentative" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How many other countries have the singled out as being "racist"?

Of all the countries in the world is Britain really a country where racism is a large scale problem - one that the UN should prioritize?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:51 pm

Rowls wrote:I shall not stop pointing out what could be racism and I shall not stop fighting racism when I see it. You of all people shall not cow me.
I suppose Rowls is correct here in that Islamophobia isn't technically classed as racism so not fighting it is fine by him.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:06 pm

Rowls wrote:"legitimate debate"

No response required.

As has happened several times before on this thread, your words speak for themselves.

I shall not stop pointing out what could be racism and I shall not stop fighting racism when I see it. You of all people shall not cow me.
*as long as it only involves the Labour Party
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:51 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:*as long as it only involves the Labour Party after Corbyn became leader
A little fix... :)
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:55 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Here he is complaining that a UN rep said that racism has grown in the UK since the EU referendum and implying that it's unfair to single out the UK for racism when there are worse countries in the world when it comes to racism.
Completely off topic
aggi wrote:I suppose Rowls is correct here in that Islamophobia isn't technically classed as racism so not fighting it is fine by him.
Completely wrong and off topic
Lancasterclaret wrote:*as long as it only involves the Labour Party

Completely wrong and typical of the sad responses that have been evident throughout this thread. A real shame since you are one of those who are seemingly clear enough to acknowledge the problem that evidently exists in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:58 pm

:lol:

See what I mean? It's off topic to discuss anything other than antisemitism in Labour. But it's not off-topic to post about biomass in a thread about coal :lol:

Utter ******* hypocrite.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:05 pm

Rowls wrote:...I shall not stop pointing out what could be racism and I shall not stop fighting racism when I see it...
I realise it may be a little self indulgent to quote myself, but bullsh1t like the above leaves me with no choice.
Greenmile wrote:Of course Rowls wants us to call out the horrific everyday racism against white men, but funny how he seems a bit more equivocal (to be generous) when it comes to calling out racism against black people, as demonstrated by his contributions to the following threads.

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=20819" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=19545" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=15439" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Greenmile wrote:This morning I searched your posts for the word "racism". I've just tried doing the same for the word "racist". Here's what I came up with...

Rowls throwing the racist epithet "Japs" around with wild abandon (and calling out anti-white racism in the same thread).

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... st#p655610" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rowls defending racist comments from a Labour MP (whilst still managing to have a go at Labour)

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... st#p562346" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rowls claiming the Daily Mail isn't racist

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... st#p418898" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's just from the first page (along with the three threads linked earlier).

I did also find a comment condemning Le Front National as racists, to be fair, but only in an effort to defend Brexit.

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... st#p392319" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:06 pm

Rowls wrote:If you've convinced yourself that people of certain political beliefs are "the bad guys" or that people of other political beliefs are "the good guys" and therefore are incapable of being racist then I implore you to examine your own beliefs first.
I’ve just noticed who the above post is from.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:17 pm

Nah, Rowls is right, he shall not stop pointing out what could be racism. How else could he tell us that it isn't racism in his view.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:47 pm

Rowls wrote:"legitimate debate"

No response required.

As has happened several times before on this thread, your words speak for themselves.

I shall not stop pointing out what could be racism and I shall not stop fighting racism when I see it. You of all people shall not cow me.
...but only on an appropriately titled thread.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:54 pm

AndrewJB wrote:A little fix... :)

Come on now. That’s not fair. Rowls was tying himself in knots in regards to Labour long before Corbyn got the gig.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Erasmus » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:48 pm

Just a couple of points, Rowls. You are different from the persons you cite because you include criticisms of Israel under the heading of anti-semitism. As far as I am aware, the others you name have stated that there is anti-semitism in the Labour Party but they have not sought to include anti-zionism under that heading. As Lancaster is the only one of your list who posts on here, perhaps he could say whether or not he regards opposition to Zionism or Israeli policies as anti-semitic. If he does not then that distinguishes him from persons like you.

As for what I regard as 'legitimate debate' the key issue is to discuss is whether opposition to the policies of the state of Israel is or is not anti-semitic. You have repeatedly avoided that question which is at the heart of legitimate debate on this issue. Hence my 'weasel words'. At one point you even said, 'It's a matter of opinion', which really is a rather pathetic way of avoiding a question. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of definition.

Although some of his policies seem to be very positive, I am not a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn and would prefer a different leader of the Labour Party. That is mainly because I dislike the unpleasant and rather vicious tone repeatedly adopted by his supporters in debating with opponents. I think it is this unpleasant side to the Labour Party that has led to genuine cases of anti-semitic words being spoken, but we have to distinguish between these statements and those that are simply critical of the policies of the state of Israel. As I say, it is your refusal to properly address this core issue that prevents legitimate debate.

And finally, if you are indeed so ardently opposed to all forms of racism, you might review Israeli policies towards the Palestinians. It is an issue that this somewhat tangential to the present discussion, but not entirely distinct from it.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by android » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:48 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What antisemitism from Corbyn have I "refused" to see? Please share the examples that you think i have "refused" to acknowledge.
That is easy from this thread alone:

1) You said Corbyn did not lay the wreathe. He did. There is photographic evidence and he admitted it (back in the day when he was proud of this stuff)
2) You said you accepted Corbyn's plea of innocence regarding the mural. You do not normally come across as that naïve. It is obvious that Corbyn knew what it was about when he went out of his way to defend it. I think you know this but you will continue to claim that there is no reason to not accept Corbyn's weasel explanation.
3) You were happy to call out Trump as anti-Semitic for describing Netanyahu to some American Jews as "your" prime minister. I don't recall you calling out Corbyn for saying of British Jews "they" lack a sense of irony and "they" don't understand "our" sense of humour. Here's another chance. What do you reckon?

Also, in this thread, you agreed with an example of a Labour supporter being called out for blatant antisemitism. But guess what happened to that person? You guessed right - he/she was suspended. Compare and contrast with the instant expulsion of lifelong Labour supporter for voting Liberal for the sole purpose of supporting a 2nd ref. Funny that.

But nothing to see here right? LOL. In one of your posts to me today you repeated your claim that you are happy to admit when you are wrong.. I have never seen that and I won't hold my breath now.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:23 pm

android wrote:That is easy from this thread alone:

1) You said Corbyn did not lay the wreathe. He did. There is photographic evidence and he admitted it (back in the day when he was proud of this stuff)
2) You said you accepted Corbyn's plea of innocence regarding the mural. You do not normally come across as that naïve. It is obvious that Corbyn knew what it was about when he went out of his way to defend it. I think you know this but you will continue to claim that there is no reason to not accept Corbyn's weasel explanation.
3) You were happy to call out Trump as anti-Semitic for describing Netanyahu to some American Jews as "your" prime minister. I don't recall you calling out Corbyn for saying of British Jews "they" lack a sense of irony and "they" don't understand "our" sense of humour. Here's another chance. What do you reckon?

Also, in this thread, you agreed with an example of a Labour supporter being called out for blatant antisemitism. But guess what happened to that person? You guessed right - he/she was suspended. Compare and contrast with the instant expulsion of lifelong Labour supporter for voting Liberal for the sole purpose of supporting a 2nd ref. Funny that.

But nothing to see here right? LOL. In one of your posts to me today you repeated your claim that you are happy to admit when you are wrong.. I have never seen that and I won't hold my breath now.

What wreathe did he lay that was antisemitic to lay? Explain to me how it was antisemitism and perhaps i'll agree with you by the end of it.
If you're talking about the accusation that he laid a wreathe in honour of the Black September terrorists then that is a lie and that is the lie i was referring to. If you're referring to the wreathe he laid in honour of the victims of those terrorists then i expect you to explain why that is antisemitic.

I have no reason not to accept his claim of ignorance. Had he before or since expressed antisemitic views then of course I would re-evaluate the veracity of his defence, but the fact is that Corbyn has shown the exact amount of naivety in his career to make it a very realistic possibility that he was again being naive here. So, to be clear, Corbyn hasn't expressed antisemitism, but he has demonstrated naivety, therefore i find it much more believable that he was naive, not antisemitic.

Yes, i was happy to call Trump out for referring to Netanyahu as "your" prime minister to American Jews because the accusation of dual loyalty is a typical antisemitic trope, and one that his own party had (falsely) accused a democrat of using. I wasn't just pointing out his antisemitism, but also his hypocrisy. There is a significant difference to referring to a group of people as "they" and referring to a group of people as having dual loyalty, and i find it really ******* hard to believe you can't see how those two are different.

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