Anti semetism

[AndrewJB]

There’s no mention of either Judaism or Jewish people in the interview at all:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 83206.html

[Rowls]

There’s no mention of either Judaism or Jewish people in the interview at all:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 83206.html

Hi Andrew!

I've replied with this once before but you must have missed it. Here it is again.

"The sharing of that article was wrong… because the article contained anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and I have therefore stood Rebecca Long-Bailey down from the shadow cabinet.

"I've made it my first priority to tackle anti-Semitism and rebuilding trust with the Jewish community is a number one priority for me."

[AndrewJB]

Hi Andrew!

I've replied with this once before but you must have missed it. Here it is again.

Perhaps you could point out the conspiracy theory and explain how it’s antiSemitic? I don’t see it.

[Rowls]

Perhaps you could point out the conspiracy theory and explain how it’s antiSemitic? I don’t see it.

Glad you're interested in learned more about anti-semitism.

This BBC article has the answers you're looking for.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-53183085

[Devils_Advocate]

So just to clarify as a neutral observer the antisemitic comments made by Maxine Peake was the (Israeli denied) claim that

"The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."

Have I understood this correctly or is there more to it?

[Bin Ont Turf]

Just like with the BLM movement, you can't criticise Israel because of history and being Yank backed.

[AndrewJB]

Glad you're interested in learned more about anti-semitism.

This BBC article has the answers you're looking for.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-53183085

It doesn’t have the answers actually. No big deal.

[Jakubclaret]

So just to clarify as a neutral observer the antisemitic comments made by Maxine Peake was the (Israeli denied) claim that

"The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."

Have I understood this correctly or is there more to it?

Nobody really knows for sure as it's absolutely impossible to determine the real truth as the accounts appear conflicting & contradicting, unless there's firm substantial irrefutable evidence corroborating 1 account over the over, fact or fiction flip a coin, anyone for heads or tails.

[Damo]

I was unsure about Starmer when he was elected Labour leader, but he has had an excellent start.
Clearing out the far left moonbats is an absolute priority if we ever want a credible opposition to the tories.
Hopefully by the time the next GE comes around, the anti-semites and extremists will have nowhere to hide, and their racist views wont be forever linked to a mainstream political party

[Woodleyclaret]

I worked in a Jewish Boys school in Manchester close to Cheetham Hill.I was forever trying to correct the totally unacceptable language the boys used to describe the Afro Caribbean locals Racism is an issue at lots schools.
In Burnley Bangladeshi heritagepupils are regularly beaten up by Pakistani heritage pupils

[Rowls]

It doesn’t have the answers actually. No big deal.

You need to improve your reading skills AndrewJB. To help you this time, I've lifted the relevant part directly from the article:

In the article, Ms Peake discussed the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

She said: "The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."

The Independent article also quoted the Israeli police denying Ms Peake's claim saying: "There is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway."

Later on Thursday, Ms Peake tweeted that she had been "inaccurate in my assumption of American police training and its sources".

[Devils_Advocate]

You need to improve your reading skills AndrewJB. To help you this time, I've lifted the relevant part directly from the article:

Can you explain to us why you think its antisemitic Rowls?

You wrote quote some quite long and detailed posts on your thoughts on racism in respect to the BLM situation so interested to hear your actual take on this because I don't believe for a second you are someone who will just think something because of the say so of Kier Starmer or anyone else for that matter

Criticism of Israel and antisemitism is a topic that could have some interesting exchanges of ideas but Im not convinced people are really interested in that and it feels more like political opportunism but Id love to be wrong and see the subject discussed by people we different views on this issue

[CrosspoolClarets]

In a week where some people have spent time trying to educate others about BLM, those same people tend to be the ones saying they cannot see antisemitism in this statement:

"The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."

Imagine someone saying that, which Peake did to her interviewer, rather than writing it, and imagine the tone, body language etc. It’s very likely that the way she said it would have been insinuating that the Israeli’s teach police to kill people, and are “bad” as a result. She has subsequently come out and said she misunderstood the way US police are trained, so is hastily backtracking. That’s why RLB had to go, because it showed bad judgement in retweeting it as well as exposed her core beliefs.

To use another example, imagine reading an article written by a “white lives matter” champion. Most of the article may be OK but say one line was a clear distasteful line about BLM. Would you retweet and praise it? Of course not. You’d spot that one line and distance yourself from it. That again is why RLB had to go.

[Devils_Advocate]

From what I remember CrosspoolClarets you were one of the ones criticising BLM and defending the WLM stuff. Strange that your position seems to be a 180 on this.

That said at least you have had the guts to offer and stand behind a real position because this at the very least opens it up to debate and discussion so thanks

Finally just to clarify your position you believe that criticism of the Israeli secret service is a form of antisemitism and you are happy for us to make assumptions about peoples tone of voice and intention to support condemning them. Is that right?

[Rowls]

Can you explain to us why you think its antisemitic Rowls?

I share my views with Kier Starmer on this one.

[Zlatan]

In a week where some people have spent time trying to educate others about BLM, those same people tend to be the ones saying they cannot see antisemitism in this statement:

"The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."

Imagine someone saying that, which Peake did to her interviewer, rather than writing it, and imagine the tone, body language etc. It’s very likely that the way she said it would have been insinuating that the Israeli’s teach police to kill people, and are “bad” as a result. She has subsequently come out and said she misunderstood the way US police are trained, so is hastily backtracking. That’s why RLB had to go, because it showed bad judgement in retweeting it as well as exposed her core beliefs.

To use another example, imagine reading an article written by a “white lives matter” champion. Most of the article may be OK but say one line was a clear distasteful line about BLM. Would you retweet and praise it? Of course not. You’d spot that one line and distance yourself from it. That again is why RLB had to go.

valid contribution to the discussion and the analogy you describe is clear.

There is for me one major issue though, and that is the plight of the Palestinian people. In the issue of Israel they are the oppressed people, not the Israeli police force or the Israeli people.

[Devils_Advocate]

I share my views with Kier Starmer on this one.

Fair enough so like Kier Starmer you think the comments "The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services." is an antisemitic conspiracy theory.

You've set a high bar for calling out racism which is commendable, whether you can universally stick to it is another matter cos judging from past experience you come a cross as a bit of a hypocrite - but that is just my view

[Erasmus]

Rowls always hides on this one, saying that he accepts criticism of Israel is anti-semitism but never daring to openly debate the issue. He knows his case is very weak so he prefers obfuscation. It's cowardly, dishonest but unfortunately very typical of those who want to avoid the issue.

[Rowls]

edit - duplicate

[Rowls]

Fair enough so like Kier Starmer you think the comments "The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services." is an antisemitic conspiracy theory.

You've set a high bar for calling out racism which is commendable, whether you can universally stick to it is another matter cos judging from past experience you come a cross as a bit of a hypocrite - but that is just my view

So it's me and Kier Starmer versus everybody else in the world?

Oh, and Maxine Peake too - she's accepted that she was trotting out lies too.

" [...I was]....inaccurate in my assumption of American police training and its sources

Which makes me wonder what source Maxine had for her original information anyway.

[Devils_Advocate]

So it's me and Kier Starmer versus everybody else in the world?

Oh, and Maxine Peake too - she's accepted that she was trotting out lies too.



Which makes me wonder what source Maxine had for her original information anyway.

Maxine Peake has admitted the facts she quoted werewrong but she has not admitted to deliberately lying or trotting out lies (as you put it) and she has strongly denied there is any antisemitism in her criticism of Israeli security forces

As for you and Kier Starmer then that is on you. I have clearly said I want to understand your view but unlike with other forms of racism you seem reluctant to stand behind your own views and instead hide behind those of Kier Starmer

There's a good discussion to be had on this and you are not usually shy about taking on this kind of mantle but like I said the way you have acted around this smells of political opportunism rather than the good fight against racism

[Rowls]

Rowls always hides on this one, saying that he accepts criticism of Israel is anti-semitism but never daring to openly debate the issue. He knows his case is very weak so he prefers obfuscation. It's cowardly, dishonest but unfortunately very typical of those who want to avoid the issue.

Sadly I haven't needed to engage people on this thread. It's all too easy to let the incidents speak for themselves.

And if the incidents don't speak loudly enough for themselves, there's often a somebody who I can quote to explain things without having to put them into my own words. Today, I used quotes from the leader of the Labour Party, Kier Starmer.

I've been "hiding" by regularly bumping this thread when a new incident occurs, which is an odd way of "hiding".

[Rowls]

Maxine Peake has admitted the facts she quoted werewrong but she has not admitted to deliberately lying or trotting out lies (as you put it) and she has strongly denied there is any antisemitism in her criticism of Israeli security forces

As for you and Kier Starmer then that is on you. I have clearly said I want to understand your view but unlike with other forms of racism you seem reluctant to stand behind your own views and instead hide behind those of Kier Starmer

There's a good discussion to be had on this and you are not usually shy about taking on this kind of mantle but like I said the way you have acted around this smells of political opportunism rather than the good fight against racism

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

"the facts she quoted were wrong"
- then they are not facts.

"but she has not admitted to deliberately lying or trotting out lies"
- nobody has accused her of deliberately lying. She has admitted repeating lies.

"she has strongly denied there is any antisemitism in her criticism of Israeli security forces"
- Actually, she was criticizing the American police. I'm willing to accept her word that she did not intend any antisemitism but she may do well (as you might yourself) to ask herself why she was so keen to believe misinformation about Israel. After all, she has accepted she was incorrect.

"As for you and Kier Starmer then that is on you"
- that's on me then.

the way you have acted around this smells of political opportunism rather than the good fight against racism
- I'm backing Kier Starmer the leader of the Labour party out of political opportunism you say?

[Buxtonclaret]

Which makes me wonder what source Maxine had for her original information anyway.

You could check out the dark side of the moon for one such source.

[Spijed]

Sadly I haven't needed to engage people on this thread. It's all too easy to let the incidents speak for themselves.

And if the incidents don't speak loudly enough for themselves, there's often a somebody who I can quote to explain things without having to put them into my own words. Today, I used quotes from the leader of the Labour Party, Kier Starmer.

I've been "hiding" by regularly bumping this thread when a new incident occurs, which is an odd way of "hiding".

Enlighten me as to why you think Anti semetism is worse than other forms of racism because you are never as forthcoming in your condemnation when other incidents occur?

[Erasmus]

No that's rubbish, Rowls, just more of your obfuscation. Come on out and explain exactly why criticism of Israel is a form of racism. You won't because you can't and you'll come out with stuff like, 'I haven't needed to engage people on this thread.' No, you haven't engaged because you know your position is weak and so choose to hide behond hints and innuendo.

[Chobulous]

Enlighten me as to why you think Anti semetism is worse than other forms of racism because you are never as forthcoming in your condemnation when other incidents occur?

You may as well turn that around and ask why anti- semitism is a more acceptable form of racism to many as it seems to be however it is hidden behind anti- Zionism.

Maxine Peake seems to have totally accepted Israeli involvement and made no attempt to check its veracity when publishing her thoughts, only backtracking when the inevitable sh!tstorm followed. RLB saw the magic trigger “Isreali” and just couldn’t help herself

[Burnley Ace]

It’s just a variation of the “just because I support white lives matter doesn’t mean I’m racist”

[Devils_Advocate]

"but she has not admitted to deliberately lying or trotting out lies"
- nobody has accused her of deliberately lying. She has admitted repeating lies.

"she has strongly denied there is any antisemitism in her criticism of Israeli security forces"
- Actually, she was criticizing the American police. I'm willing to accept her word that she did not intend any antisemitism but she may do well (as you might yourself) to ask herself why she was so keen to believe misinformation about Israel. After all, she has accepted she was incorrect.

On the first point there is a difference between knowing something is a lie and still going on to repeat it compared to sharing something believed to be true but which turns out to be lies. I haven't seen evidence of the former so think again your terminology is misleading but if she has been repeating it once she knew to be false then please let me know (This is why I was trying to ask you for your opinion in the first place)

On the second point if you look at my opening posts on this issue then that is a relevant question that is worthy of debate. Whilst I am a massive critic of the Israeli govt and the breaking of UN sanctions and treatment of the Palestinians I strongly believe there are people who use the valid criticism of Israel to put out and share there antisemitic views. I see exactly the same thing in the way criticism of Islam is used by racists to put out and share their racism.

Its a complex issue and from the minimal evidence I have seen it is hard to conclude that the view Maxine Peake shared was antisemitic. As a result I think it is a great opportunity for a discussion as probably a lot of us can be enlightened about some elements of antisemitism.

I also want to see a better discussion because I am keen to see all racism called out and I see very different attitudes from people on racism against brown and black people compared with racism against Jewish people.

I am very open to the fact that this could amount to antisemitism and that Kier Starmer is correct but I think if this level of detail was put forward to accuse someone for racism against Muslims or black people then there would be a lot of posters in outrage and banging on about the race card or identity politics etc.

Your final point about political opportunism please don't act dumb. The political opportunism is your persistent efforts to label the left and the labour party as the side that has the issues with racism rather than the right and the Torys. If achieving this long term aim is supported by acting like you are in support of Kier Starmer then that is what you will do and a perfect example of your opportunism.

If you think Kier is such a strong voice on racism then maybe you will support him on his criticisms of the Torys too

[Rowls]

Enlighten me as to why you think Anti semetism is worse than other forms of racism because you are never as forthcoming in your condemnation when other incidents occur?

I don't.

No that's rubbish, Rowls, just more of your obfuscation. Come on out and explain exactly why criticism of Israel is a form of racism. You won't because you can't and you'll come out with stuff like, 'I haven't needed to engage people on this thread.' No, you haven't engaged because you know your position is weak and so choose to hide behond hints and innuendo.

I believe I've already covered that on this thread. It's a long and complex answer and I don't have the time or inclination to cover it again.

If you think Kier is such a strong voice on racism then maybe you will support him on his criticisms of the Torys too

With logic like that I suggest the Devil is in need of a new advocate.

[Hipper]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... tisemitism

'However, criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.'

In this case the only real answer to whether what Peake said was antisemitic could be her own thinking. On the surface it could be argued that it wasn't but only she will know the truth.

Either there is a longer history to Long-Bailey posting this or it is an opportunist act by Starmer - politics at its finest!

[Devils_Advocate]

Good link Hipper and the bit youve quoted comes as an exception/clarification to the below point

• Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

This along with your comment is the crux of it for me. People who hold all Muslims or even all people from Muslim countries responsible for the actions of a minority of extremists is the equivalent of people who hold all Jewish people responsible for the actions of the Israeli state and both are abhorrent

Did Peakes claim that the state of Israel were implicit in the death of George Floyd through their training of the US police imply responsibility of the Jewish people or was it a criticism of a govt in the same way we might criticise the Russian, Chinese or US govts. If the latter then does the fact that her claims was false and wrong make any difference if what she was wrong about was an attack on a country/govt rather than an attack on a group of people because of their race or religion.

Definitely not as black and white as some are making out

[Caernarfon_Claret]

I think the problem with any none Jewish person criticizing Israeli politics is that there is only One State where the official religion is Judaism, unlike other mainstream religions. Therefore the line between antisemitism and holding a nation accountable for it's actions is wafer thin. There are plenty of Jews who criticize Israeli methods, and they are probably more judicious in their methods.

Edit for additional information and a correction.

Judaism is not the state religion in Israel.

It is the only "Jewish State" in the sense of a people rather than a religion.

There are two largely Hindu nations - India and Nepal.

Although Hinduism is not a state religion in either of them.

[Damo]

Surprising the people who rail against this form of racism being called out.

[Erasmus]

You're just avoiding the question again, Rowls. I haven't seen any answer you've given so perhaps you could indicate which post it was in terms of date and time. Time and again, you try to slip out of it with this recent set of remarks.

Criticising Pakistan is not Islamophobic and criticising Israel is not anti-semitic. I said Israel practised ethnic cleansing and land seizure. Does that mean you regard me as a racist? I don't know why you feel unable to answer.

[Rowls]

You're just avoiding the question again, Rowls. I haven't seen any answer you've given so perhaps you could indicate which post it was in terms of date and time. Time and again, you try to slip out of it with this recent set of remarks.

Criticising Pakistan is not Islamophobic and criticising Israel is not anti-semitic. I said Israel practised ethnic cleansing and land seizure. Does that mean you regard me as a racist? I don't know why you feel unable to answer.

Maybe this question and answer session will help you Erasmus:

Q.Is criticism of Israel automatically "anti-semitic"?
A. No.

Q. Can criticism of Israel be anti-semitic?
A. Yes.

Q. Do anti-semites use criticizing Israel to mask their anti-semitism?
A. Undoubtedly they do at times.

Q. Where is the magic wand that differentiates between legitimate criticism of Israel and anti-semitism?
A. There isn't one. You have to use your own judgment.

Q. Is Erasmus a racist?
A. Nothing in his comments above are racist. But obviously, a lack of evidence of racism doesn't mean you might have been or might be a racist. I suspect you're a half-decent bloke. Most people are. It's a borish question though.

[Erasmus]

Let me help you further then:

When criticism of the policies of Israel or the conduct of its security services makes no reference to Jews as a race or religion it is not anti-semitic. When it includes language of that type it is anti-semitic.

Hence my question how could saying Israel as a state has engaged in ehnic cleansing and land seizure ever be construed as anti-semitic. We are talking about the statement here and its context regardless of any racist views you may suspect me of holding.

Do you get the difference now?

[Devils_Advocate]

Surprising the people who rail against this form of racism being called out.

Cant speak for anyone else but I have posted a lot on this today and I don't and am not railing against this or any other form of racism being called out.

In fact I am trying to encourage a discussion and conversation as I think it is important that all racism is treated equally and that the people calling it out our consistent with their views rather than picking and choosing which kind of racism they prefer to have a problem with.

[Rowls]

how could saying Israel as a state has engaged in ehnic cleansing and land seizure ever be construed as anti-semitic[?]

I believe I answered the question in a post above.

[Rowls]

Q. Where is the magic wand that differentiates between legitimate criticism of Israel and anti-semitism?
A. There isn't one. You have to use your own judgment.

[KateR]

it's interesting to me reading numerous posts on this topic, for me anti-Semitic is not a racist issue in and of itself, it's more of a hatred/bias/dislike of a religious community or the race of Jews, which of course when you say "the race of Jews" you could say it's obviously racist then, but for me not.

Israel is a state/country that has other ethnic people living there but of different religions and therefore for me it is not racist at all to complain or bring up issues with Israel, much like I would do with numerous other countries around the world, particularly those in Africa where we have seen atrocities.

Anti-Semitics, are for me people who have a hatred for a religion or a way of life and there are Jews in many countries so again being critical of Israel is not being racist but more against policies and how the country is run. I believe the hatred to Jews is just plain wrong but I retain my thoughts that racism is more about color, we don't tend to see people showing a dislike for any African country or the continent itself or specifically African Americans. Racist don't tend to differentiate between Africans/Indians/Pakistanis and care less about their religion, way of life and it seems to be all about color and perception of them being lesser people because of the color of skin. Just an opinion

I think it is the same with Islamophobia in that Muslims are everywhere and it is a religious hatred but some people go after Saudi for policies, some of which are from the religious beliefs and it is hard for westerners to comprehend. There is a marked differences between the Middle East and Indonesia for example in terms of how people live, even in the Middle East it's difficult to compare Saudi and Dubai in life styles, even in the UAE many of the Emirates have different lifestyles where religion makes a difference.

[aggi]

it's interesting to me reading numerous posts on this topic, for me anti-Semitic is not a racist issue in and of itself, it's more of a hatred/bias/dislike of a religious community or the race of Jews, which of course when you say "the race of Jews" you could say it's obviously racist then, but for me not.

Israel is a state/country that has other ethnic people living there but of different religions and therefore for me it is not racist at all to complain or bring up issues with Israel, much like I would do with numerous other countries around the world, particularly those in Africa where we have seen atrocities.

Anti-Semitics, are for me people who have a hatred for a religion or a way of life and there are Jews in many countries so again being critical of Israel is not being racist but more against policies and how the country is run. I believe the hatred to Jews is just plain wrong but I retain my thoughts that racism is more about color, we don't tend to see people showing a dislike for any African country or the continent itself or specifically African Americans. Racist don't tend to differentiate between Africans/Indians/Pakistanis and care less about their religion, way of life and it seems to be all about color and perception of them being lesser people because of the color of skin. Just an opinion

In the UK at least anti-semitism is defined as racist whereas anti-islam or anti-christianity isn't. I can't remember the exact reasoning but I think it was that being Jewish is tied in to a race (I think the majority of the Jewish diaspora have been found to share the same origins) as well as religion.

[Erasmus]

Rowls, you don't need a magic wind, you just need a mind capable of the logical use of sequential reasoning to make a determination. And also a mind free of bias, so that you don't have to resort to obfuscation when you know your position is a weak one.

So far you have given us the view that it is anti-semitic because Keir Starmer says it is, and this followed by 'it is too difficult to say.' Not that great is it?

So I'll ask again. When would my statement that the state of Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing and land seizure ever be racist?

Or if that's too hard, When would a statement that the state of Pakistan has behaved in a terrible way towards its Hindu minority ever be racist or Islamophobic?

[Rowls]

I'll give you a clear example. It's all a hypothetical response to match your hypothetical situation but it's an example based on reality.

An Hamas spokesmen condemns the Israeli forces for "killing a civilian". But the civilian was firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel when he was targetted. Not only is Hamas inherently anti-semitic in its constitution and aims, the act of trying to kill Israeli citizens is anti-semitic too. Yet the words "We condemn Israel for killing a citizen" are not, in of themselves anti-semitic. But the motivation of the criticism of Israel is pretty obvious to all and sundry who aren't soft between the ears.

That would be a clear and obvious example. You wouldn't join Hamas unless you were an anti-semite because everybody knows full well that the aim of Hamas is to kill every Jew on the planet. So in this instance the words are clearly motivated by anti-semitic intent. Indeed, the whole incident was engineered to spread anti-semitism and hatred of Israel and Jews and to try and kill a few in the process.

But as I've been at pains to point out on the threads about BLM and even to you here - you have to be very, very, VERY careful if youre to attribute a racist intent to words which are not inherently racist in themselves. It's extremely dodgy ground.

Frankly, most of the time it's a mugs game and in a country with a libel system like England, it's a dangerous and potentially expensive game to play.

It's not impossible and most people can infer a racist intent when sometimes nothing racist has been said. The problem are clear though: Misattributing racist intent when there is none and "criminalizing" (for want of a better definition) normal, inoffensive statements and/or words because of a presumed racist intent.

You don't appear to understand the difference between obfuscation and somebody explaining to you that there simply isn't an easy answer. You're trying to pin me down to a definitive answer to an open-ended question and there isn't one.

You may as well try and nail down a fart to stop it spreading.

This is the last response you'll get from me today. I've patiently answered your questions for a number of hours now and it's been dull.

All the best though and have a pleasant evening.

[KateR]

In the UK at least anti-semitism is defined as racist whereas anti-islam or anti-christianity isn't. I can't remember the exact reasoning but I think it was that being Jewish is tied in to a race (I think the majority of the Jewish diaspora have been found to share the same origins) as well as religion.

thank you, understand what you are saying, was just giving my thoughts, none white people are not a race but is classed as racism whenever color is attacked, and is never tied to a specific country, either way it is for me in all case a hate crime and we can add Gender and sexuality in to that bucket, all of which are totally wrong in my opinion. Just some different thoughts to add to the mix.

Additionally in regards to Israels training US police I am convinced it happens however it can be to selective cities, who are through the Mayor and Police Chiefs responsible for the police force and it's budget, when we talk about cities in that way it can be of the size of Burnley and and smaller.

There are many misconceptions around this and outright lies/conspiracy theories but again I believe it happens, note attached for example, which of course someone could say they are lying and it is fake, but this notion of Israelis training some US police has been in the news for years, of course some sensationalized it through G Floyd.

https://projectsouth.org/wp-content/upl ... Letter.pdf

[Erasmus]

You might at least answer the questions I've asked and not ones you make up yourself. The questions I posed were very clear and get right to the heart of this issue and you've repeatedly avoided them. There's very specific questions I asked at 3.10pm and they are not hard to answer.

[KateR]

You might at least answer the questions I've asked and not ones you make up yourself. The questions I posed were very clear and get right to the heart of this issue and you've repeatedly avoided them. There's very specific questions I asked at 3.10pm and they are not hard to answer.

perhaps people might be more inclined to engage and answer specific questions around thought and views/opinions, rather than questions you already know the answer to in your opinion plus the antagonistic name calling and superiority seeking posters that seem to have infected every thread, just a thought.

[Caernarfon_Claret]

Interesting Wikipedia article on Göttingen School of History.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6tt ... of_History

Blumenbach and Meiners's color terminology for race: Caucasian or white race; Mongolian or yellow race; Malayan or brown race; Ethiopian or black race; and American or red race

Gatterer, Schlözer and Eichhorn's Biblical terminology for race: Semitic, Hamitic and Japhetic

(Shem, Ham and Japheth - sons of Noah)

You could argue that dividing humans into races is racist, and I would argue such myself, as it is all a load of ******** made up by white supremists "scientists" and "historians", which has all been discredited by modern science, and yet is still widely used and accepted in general society.

That being said, whilst I believe there are no races I acknowledge "racism" as a concept and that would include antisemitism.

Either way you look at it. We're all descendants of a small group of humans.

Interesting modern scientific research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Templeton

According to Templeton's research, perceived differences in races are more related to cultural perceptions and biases than any underlying genetic reality.[4] For example, Templeton's statistical analysis of the human genome shows that much greater genetic diversity exists between populations of chimpanzees than humans from different parts of the world.

[Caernarfon_Claret]

thank you, understand what you are saying, was just giving my thoughts, none white people are not a race but is classed as racism whenever color is attacked, and is never tied to a specific country, either way it is for me in all case a hate crime and we can add Gender and sexuality in to that bucket, all of which are totally wrong in my opinion. Just some different thoughts to add to the mix.

Additionally in regards to Israels training US police I am convinced it happens however it can be to selective cities, who are through the Mayor and Police Chiefs responsible for the police force and it's budget, when we talk about cities in that way it can be of the size of Burnley and and smaller.

There are many misconceptions around this and outright lies/conspiracy theories but again I believe it happens, note attached for example, which of course someone could say they are lying and it is fake, but this notion of Israelis training some US police has been in the news for years, of course some sensationalized it through G Floyd.

https://projectsouth.org/wp-content/upl ... Letter.pdf

Antisemitism was a term first used in 1800s in response to a form of racism that emerged that deliberately attacked the "Semitic" race (in this case referring to Jews only and not to other descendants of Shem, such as certain Bedouin tribes).


As Wikipedia says:


The root word Semite gives the false impression that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic people, e.g., including Arabs, Assyrians and Arameans. The compound word Antisemitismus ("antisemitism") was first used in print in Germany in 1879[6] as a scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[7][8][9][10][11][12] and this has been its common use since then.[13][7][14]

Also worth reading

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair

The origin of "antisemitic" terminologies is found in the responses of Moritz Steinschneider to the views of Ernest Renan. As Alex Bein writes: "The compound anti-Semitism appears to have been used first by Steinschneider, who challenged Renan on account of his 'anti-Semitic prejudices' [i.e., his derogation of the "Semites" as a race]."[15] Avner Falk similarly writes: "The German word antisemitisch was first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider (1816–1907) in the phrase antisemitische Vorurteile (antisemitic prejudices). Steinschneider used this phrase to characterise the French philosopher Ernest Renan's false ideas about how 'Semitic races' were inferior to 'Aryan races'".[16]


So yes antisemitism is racism.

[KateR]

Interesting Wikipedia article on Göttingen School of History.

Blumenbach and Meiners's color terminology for race: Caucasian or white race; Mongolian or yellow race; Malayan or brown race; Ethiopian or black race; and American or red race

Gatterer, Schlözer and Eichhorn's Biblical terminology for race: Semitic, Hamitic and Japhetic (Shem, Ham and Japheth - sons of Noah)
Templeton's statistical analysis of the human genome shows that much greater genetic diversity exists between populations of chimpanzees than humans from different parts of the world.

What is more interesting is how one interprets this info, for example colour terminology came in later than the slave trade did, the fact someone bothered to put terminology to colour such that people could distinguish has nothing to do with racism in my opinion, that has been going on almost from day and wont change anytime soon.

It's fairly well know regarding genome sequencing and how little difference is the make up with just a fraction of differences going back as far as we know, however that small difference leads to hair/eyes/pigmentation/skull thickness. Out of that small/tiny difference is a major change on how we actually look across the world, people have been fighting other people capturing them forever, tribes, countries, individuals because they look different. People are scared or offended by how others look or act when out side the "norm", even in the same race, gay/trans being a good example.