There’s no mention of either Judaism or Jewish people in the interview at all:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 83206.html
There’s no mention of either Judaism or Jewish people in the interview at all:
Hi Andrew!AndrewJB wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:21 pmThere’s no mention of either Judaism or Jewish people in the interview at all:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 83206.html
Kier Starmer wrote: "The sharing of that article was wrong… because the article contained anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and I have therefore stood Rebecca Long-Bailey down from the shadow cabinet.
"I've made it my first priority to tackle anti-Semitism and rebuilding trust with the Jewish community is a number one priority for me."
Glad you're interested in learned more about anti-semitism.
It doesn’t have the answers actually. No big deal.Rowls wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:39 pmGlad you're interested in learned more about anti-semitism.
This BBC article has the answers you're looking for.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-53183085
Nobody really knows for sure as it's absolutely impossible to determine the real truth as the accounts appear conflicting & contradicting, unless there's firm substantial irrefutable evidence corroborating 1 account over the over, fact or fiction flip a coin, anyone for heads or tails.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:54 pmSo just to clarify as a neutral observer the antisemitic comments made by Maxine Peake was the (Israeli denied) claim that
"The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."
Have I understood this correctly or is there more to it?
You need to improve your reading skills AndrewJB. To help you this time, I've lifted the relevant part directly from the article:
BBC Article wrote:In the article, Ms Peake discussed the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.
She said: "The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."
The Independent article also quoted the Israeli police denying Ms Peake's claim saying: "There is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway."
Later on Thursday, Ms Peake tweeted that she had been "inaccurate in my assumption of American police training and its sources".
Can you explain to us why you think its antisemitic Rowls?
I share my views with Kier Starmer on this one.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:38 amCan you explain to us why you think its antisemitic Rowls?
valid contribution to the discussion and the analogy you describe is clear.CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:39 amIn a week where some people have spent time trying to educate others about BLM, those same people tend to be the ones saying they cannot see antisemitism in this statement:
"The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."
Imagine someone saying that, which Peake did to her interviewer, rather than writing it, and imagine the tone, body language etc. It’s very likely that the way she said it would have been insinuating that the Israeli’s teach police to kill people, and are “bad” as a result. She has subsequently come out and said she misunderstood the way US police are trained, so is hastily backtracking. That’s why RLB had to go, because it showed bad judgement in retweeting it as well as exposed her core beliefs.
To use another example, imagine reading an article written by a “white lives matter” champion. Most of the article may be OK but say one line was a clear distasteful line about BLM. Would you retweet and praise it? Of course not. You’d spot that one line and distance yourself from it. That again is why RLB had to go.
Fair enough so like Kier Starmer you think the comments "The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services." is an antisemitic conspiracy theory.
So it's me and Kier Starmer versus everybody else in the world?Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:01 amFair enough so like Kier Starmer you think the comments "The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services." is an antisemitic conspiracy theory.
You've set a high bar for calling out racism which is commendable, whether you can universally stick to it is another matter cos judging from past experience you come a cross as a bit of a hypocrite - but that is just my view
Which makes me wonder what source Maxine had for her original information anyway.Maxine Peake wrote:" [...I was]....inaccurate in my assumption of American police training and its sources
Maxine Peake has admitted the facts she quoted werewrong but she has not admitted to deliberately lying or trotting out lies (as you put it) and she has strongly denied there is any antisemitism in her criticism of Israeli security forces
Sadly I haven't needed to engage people on this thread. It's all too easy to let the incidents speak for themselves.Erasmus wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:10 amRowls always hides on this one, saying that he accepts criticism of Israel is anti-semitism but never daring to openly debate the issue. He knows his case is very weak so he prefers obfuscation. It's cowardly, dishonest but unfortunately very typical of those who want to avoid the issue.
Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:28 amMaxine Peake has admitted the facts she quoted werewrong but she has not admitted to deliberately lying or trotting out lies (as you put it) and she has strongly denied there is any antisemitism in her criticism of Israeli security forces
As for you and Kier Starmer then that is on you. I have clearly said I want to understand your view but unlike with other forms of racism you seem reluctant to stand behind your own views and instead hide behind those of Kier Starmer
There's a good discussion to be had on this and you are not usually shy about taking on this kind of mantle but like I said the way you have acted around this smells of political opportunism rather than the good fight against racism
Enlighten me as to why you think Anti semetism is worse than other forms of racism because you are never as forthcoming in your condemnation when other incidents occur?Rowls wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:30 amSadly I haven't needed to engage people on this thread. It's all too easy to let the incidents speak for themselves.
And if the incidents don't speak loudly enough for themselves, there's often a somebody who I can quote to explain things without having to put them into my own words. Today, I used quotes from the leader of the Labour Party, Kier Starmer.
I've been "hiding" by regularly bumping this thread when a new incident occurs, which is an odd way of "hiding".
You may as well turn that around and ask why anti- semitism is a more acceptable form of racism to many as it seems to be however it is hidden behind anti- Zionism.
On the first point there is a difference between knowing something is a lie and still going on to repeat it compared to sharing something believed to be true but which turns out to be lies. I haven't seen evidence of the former so think again your terminology is misleading but if she has been repeating it once she knew to be false then please let me know (This is why I was trying to ask you for your opinion in the first place)Rowls wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:38 am"but she has not admitted to deliberately lying or trotting out lies"
- nobody has accused her of deliberately lying. She has admitted repeating lies.
"she has strongly denied there is any antisemitism in her criticism of Israeli security forces"
- Actually, she was criticizing the American police. I'm willing to accept her word that she did not intend any antisemitism but she may do well (as you might yourself) to ask herself why she was so keen to believe misinformation about Israel. After all, she has accepted she was incorrect.
I don't.
I believe I've already covered that on this thread. It's a long and complex answer and I don't have the time or inclination to cover it again.Erasmus wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:57 amNo that's rubbish, Rowls, just more of your obfuscation. Come on out and explain exactly why criticism of Israel is a form of racism. You won't because you can't and you'll come out with stuff like, 'I haven't needed to engage people on this thread.' No, you haven't engaged because you know your position is weak and so choose to hide behond hints and innuendo.
With logic like that I suggest the Devil is in need of a new advocate.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:10 amIf you think Kier is such a strong voice on racism then maybe you will support him on his criticisms of the Torys too
Maybe this question and answer session will help you Erasmus:Erasmus wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:16 pmYou're just avoiding the question again, Rowls. I haven't seen any answer you've given so perhaps you could indicate which post it was in terms of date and time. Time and again, you try to slip out of it with this recent set of remarks.
Criticising Pakistan is not Islamophobic and criticising Israel is not anti-semitic. I said Israel practised ethnic cleansing and land seizure. Does that mean you regard me as a racist? I don't know why you feel unable to answer.
Cant speak for anyone else but I have posted a lot on this today and I don't and am not railing against this or any other form of racism being called out.
In the UK at least anti-semitism is defined as racist whereas anti-islam or anti-christianity isn't. I can't remember the exact reasoning but I think it was that being Jewish is tied in to a race (I think the majority of the Jewish diaspora have been found to share the same origins) as well as religion.KateR wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:27 pmit's interesting to me reading numerous posts on this topic, for me anti-Semitic is not a racist issue in and of itself, it's more of a hatred/bias/dislike of a religious community or the race of Jews, which of course when you say "the race of Jews" you could say it's obviously racist then, but for me not.
Israel is a state/country that has other ethnic people living there but of different religions and therefore for me it is not racist at all to complain or bring up issues with Israel, much like I would do with numerous other countries around the world, particularly those in Africa where we have seen atrocities.
Anti-Semitics, are for me people who have a hatred for a religion or a way of life and there are Jews in many countries so again being critical of Israel is not being racist but more against policies and how the country is run. I believe the hatred to Jews is just plain wrong but I retain my thoughts that racism is more about color, we don't tend to see people showing a dislike for any African country or the continent itself or specifically African Americans. Racist don't tend to differentiate between Africans/Indians/Pakistanis and care less about their religion, way of life and it seems to be all about color and perception of them being lesser people because of the color of skin. Just an opinion
thank you, understand what you are saying, was just giving my thoughts, none white people are not a race but is classed as racism whenever color is attacked, and is never tied to a specific country, either way it is for me in all case a hate crime and we can add Gender and sexuality in to that bucket, all of which are totally wrong in my opinion. Just some different thoughts to add to the mix.aggi wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:02 pmIn the UK at least anti-semitism is defined as racist whereas anti-islam or anti-christianity isn't. I can't remember the exact reasoning but I think it was that being Jewish is tied in to a race (I think the majority of the Jewish diaspora have been found to share the same origins) as well as religion.
perhaps people might be more inclined to engage and answer specific questions around thought and views/opinions, rather than questions you already know the answer to in your opinion plus the antagonistic name calling and superiority seeking posters that seem to have infected every thread, just a thought.Erasmus wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:39 pmYou might at least answer the questions I've asked and not ones you make up yourself. The questions I posed were very clear and get right to the heart of this issue and you've repeatedly avoided them. There's very specific questions I asked at 3.10pm and they are not hard to answer.
Antisemitism was a term first used in 1800s in response to a form of racism that emerged that deliberately attacked the "Semitic" race (in this case referring to Jews only and not to other descendants of Shem, such as certain Bedouin tribes).KateR wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:37 pmthank you, understand what you are saying, was just giving my thoughts, none white people are not a race but is classed as racism whenever color is attacked, and is never tied to a specific country, either way it is for me in all case a hate crime and we can add Gender and sexuality in to that bucket, all of which are totally wrong in my opinion. Just some different thoughts to add to the mix.
Additionally in regards to Israels training US police I am convinced it happens however it can be to selective cities, who are through the Mayor and Police Chiefs responsible for the police force and it's budget, when we talk about cities in that way it can be of the size of Burnley and and smaller.
There are many misconceptions around this and outright lies/conspiracy theories but again I believe it happens, note attached for example, which of course someone could say they are lying and it is fake, but this notion of Israelis training some US police has been in the news for years, of course some sensationalized it through G Floyd.
https://projectsouth.org/wp-content/upl ... Letter.pdf
What is more interesting is how one interprets this info, for example colour terminology came in later than the slave trade did, the fact someone bothered to put terminology to colour such that people could distinguish has nothing to do with racism in my opinion, that has been going on almost from day and wont change anytime soon.Caernarfon_Claret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:01 pmInteresting Wikipedia article on Göttingen School of History.
Blumenbach and Meiners's color terminology for race: Caucasian or white race; Mongolian or yellow race; Malayan or brown race; Ethiopian or black race; and American or red race
Gatterer, Schlözer and Eichhorn's Biblical terminology for race: Semitic, Hamitic and Japhetic (Shem, Ham and Japheth - sons of Noah)
Templeton's statistical analysis of the human genome shows that much greater genetic diversity exists between populations of chimpanzees than humans from different parts of the world.