Anti semetism

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KateR
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by KateR » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:38 pm

aggi wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:02 pm
I've been pretty consistent in saying both are bad and the "we're not as bad as them" on both sides of the debate is a terrible justification for these things.

My point was that a lot of people seemed to be upset by anti-semitism in the Labour party but not upset by the Islamophobia in the Tory party (and actively tried to talk it down). If someone is upset by one but not the other then either they don't care about Islamophobia or they're just jumping on the anti-semitism thing because they don't like Labour and are looking for an excuse (which was my point about it not making much difference).

There are plenty of examples of people highlighting one whilst talking down the other both on here (for instance the poster who started this thread) and in the real world.
Thank you for the explanation, understand better now. I think the original poster was asking a question about Labour and the subject matter and was concerned with that because he did not understand. To be honest that is exactly where I was/am. As I have said, I never saw any of it but as you said certainly some were upset, maybe because of those naughty media people Andrew talks about so much.

Since I didn't see Labour I also did not see the Tory counter issue except from here and from BJ's letterbox comment plus of course the naughty media people. What I have not seen and if it is there I apologize as am just saying I have not seen anything regarding party mutiny, Panarama and whistleblowers from in the Tory party. However, I have no doubt so are opposed and have made noises. Just meaning to the point of possibly going to court, having to make apologies plus compensation in the public eye.

Regardless, I agree it wont help them in any meaningful way at the voting and was in no way why they lost the election but it is the right move and a tiny step in repairing the tarnished vision a lot of the electorate have of the labour party through JC's reign, which cost many voters.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:48 pm

KateR wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:38 pm
Thank you for the explanation, understand better now. I think the original poster was asking a question about Labour and the subject matter and was concerned with that because he did not understand. To be honest that is exactly where I was/am. As I have said, I never saw any of it but as you said certainly some were upset, maybe because of those naughty media people Andrew talks about so much.

Since I didn't see Labour I also did not see the Tory counter issue except from here and from BJ's letterbox comment plus of course the naughty media people. What I have not seen and if it is there I apologize as am just saying I have not seen anything regarding party mutiny, Panarama and whistleblowers from in the Tory party. However, I have no doubt so are opposed and have made noises. Just meaning to the point of possibly going to court, having to make apologies plus compensation in the public eye.

Regardless, I agree it wont help them in any meaningful way at the voting and was in no way why they lost the election but it is the right move and a tiny step in repairing the tarnished vision a lot of the electorate have of the labour party through JC's reign, which cost many voters.
I've edited my post. Had the wrong poster starting this thread.

Islamophobia in the Tory party was a big enough issue that during the leadership campaign all of the prospective leaders agreed to hold an inquiry into it. (Obviously once Johnson won he refused to do what he'd promised but given his track record no one was that surprised.)
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:41 am

Rumours that Jeremy Corbyn will have the whip removed from him after publication of the report into anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party:

https://twitter.com/acailler/status/1285840008885215233

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:43 am

The Panorama investigation into Labour anti Semitism had already been discredited: https://www.mediareform.org.uk/blog/bbc ... g-failures That was before an investigation by the party to provide evidence for the EHRC that discovered that senior Labour staff hostile to Corbyn stalled on action against anti Semitism allegations in order to discredit the leadership: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... yns-fault/

Labour’s lawyers were said to advised the lawsuits they faced were winnable, so a reasonable question is why are they settling?

https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2020/0 ... s.html?m=1

What does the party stand to gain by saying the allegations made in the program were right, when they arguably weren’t? It’s not going to make any antiSemitism go away.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by tiger76 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:52 pm

What an idiot.

Wiley dropped by management over anti-Semitic postshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53536471

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by ecc » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:54 pm

Good job there's never been anti-semitism in the UK other than in the Labour Party.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:16 pm

Bullabill wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:31 am
Unacceptable? To whom? Who judges the 'acceptableness' of views?
Greenmile wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:19 am
Usually Rowls, I think, at least when it comes to antisemitism.

These judgments are based purely on the political affiliation of the alleged offender, of course.
Bumping for Greenmile to have a go at backing this assertion up.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:24 pm

I've made well over 100 posts on this thread Greenmile.

Feel free to pour over the whole damned thread and find a single instance of me attempting to arbitrate on what is or isn't anti-semitic.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:04 am

Rowls wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:24 pm
I've made well over 100 posts on this thread Greenmile.

Feel free to pour over the whole damned thread and find a single instance of me attempting to arbitrate on what is or isn't anti-semitic.
:lol:

This entire thread is you weaponising accusations of anti-semitism against people based on their politics.

You don't actually care about anti-semitism, or any type of racism (apart from when it comes to defending racists) - you never have.

You're going to make me quote myself again, aren't you. ok, here goes :-
Greenmile wrote:Of course Rowls wants us to call out the horrific everyday racism against white men, but funny how he seems a bit more equivocal (to be generous) when it comes to calling out racism against black people, as demonstrated by his contributions to the following threads.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20819" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19545" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15439" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Greenmile wrote:This morning I searched your posts for the word "racism". I've just tried doing the same for the word "racist". Here's what I came up with...

Rowls throwing the racist epithet "Japs" around with wild abandon (and calling out anti-white racism in the same thread).

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26371&p=655610&hilit=racist#p655610" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rowls defending racist comments from a Labour MP (whilst still managing to have a go at Labour)

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22662&p=562346&hilit=racist#p562346" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rowls claiming the Daily Mail isn't racist

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17411&p=418898&hilit=racist#p418898" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's just from the first page (along with the three threads linked earlier).

I did also find a comment condemning Le Front National as racists, to be fair, but only in an effort to defend Brexit.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16380&p=392319&hilit=racist#p392319" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:41 am

Rowls wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:16 pm
Bumping for Greenmile to have a go at backing this assertion up.
You could probably add Rowl's dismissal of "Islamophobia" (I've no idea why Rowls deems it necessary to add quote marks when writing about Islamophobia, it's almost like he's not suggesting it's really a thing) in the Conservative party.

His attitude on that thread is markedly different to this one.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:15 am

Morning Greenmile

I started this thread because there was a stupid idea among certain posters (yourself included) that there couldn't be any racism in the Labour Party because the Labour Party were the "good guys".

Once people adopt the role of moral guardians everything they do is, by definition, moral. Everything their opponents do is the opposite; their opponents are therefore immoral. If the in-group is "anti-racist" then only the out-group are capable of "racism" and they must be -to maintain this flawed logic- be "racists".

That's an extremely dangerous position for people to take. It is the kind of thinking which appeared to be developing in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

You've made laughable accusations that I am simply being party-political and don't care. You can't prove that unless you can prove what I'm thinking, which you can't. People can judge for themselves whether there was a problem with anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party (and the wider Momentum movement).

I just used this thread to collate stories as and when I stumbled across them. I never once went looking specifically for stories. I only posted them when I saw them in the media.

"But what about "Islamophobia" in the Conservative Party?" came the scream from paritsan Labour/Momentum supporters wanting to change the subject. Whilst there is undoubtedly some instances of Islamophobia in the Conservative Party I do not believe it is anywhere near the kind of problem that Labour had with anti-semitism.

I started the sister thread for stories about accusations of Islamophobia in the Conservative Party and invited people like yourself to post examples there in the same vein as I was doing here. There simply weren't sufficient accusations for that thread to keep up with this thread. The instances of anti-semitism accusations outstripped the "counter accusations" easily.

The "Islamophobia" accusations also repeated. They were sometimes the same story presented as multiple instances. They were also very limited in their origin - they came from either Baroness Warsi or the Muslim Council of Great Britain. In contrast, the accusations of anti-semitism came from far and wide.

Labour has since apologized profusely to the whistle blowers on anti-semitism and paid them substantial payments of compensation.

I've used this thread to heap praise on Keir Starmer's approach to anti-semitism and yet you think that my motivations are party political and partisan? You think that I want Keir Starmer as Prime Minister? I do not.

You haven't found a single instance of me proclaiming what is or is not anti-semitism. You've wasted your time collating god knows what from me. I'm glad I wasted your time.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:24 am

Greenmile wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:04 am
:Rowls throwing the racist epithet "Japs" around with wild abandon (and calling out anti-white racism in the same thread).
This is the only thing you've managed to say which even warrants a targeted response.

You think I "throw" that "racist epithet" around with "wild abandon"? I do not.

I use the word Jap very, very carefully.

I would never use it to refer to present day Japan, regular Japanese citizens, or Japan in a wider context.

I use it very specifically to refer to the mililtary Jap government, army and adherents who waged war, committed atrocities and war crimes over the whole continent of Asia over the duration of WWII (and beforehand, using our timeline for the conflict).

What you probably didn't notice is that I will sometimes switch between the word Jap and Japan or Japanese depending on the context in the same sentence. Thus, the Jap army committed numerous war crimes, the atomic bombs were dropped to defeat the Japs but they were, regrettably, dropped on the Japanese citizens of that time.

I'll stop using the diminutive Jap in this very specific context when the world stops using the diminutive "Nazi" when they're referring to "National Socialists".

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:29 am

aggi wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:41 am
You could probably add Rowl's dismissal of "Islamophobia" (I've no idea why Rowls deems it necessary to add quote marks when writing about Islamophobia, it's almost like he's not suggesting it's really a thing) in the Conservative party.

His attitude on that thread is markedly different to this one.
Explanation as above. I started the "Islamphobia in the Conservative Party" thread because people were claiming the two were showing the exact same problem.

The scale with which the accusations of anti-semitism outstripped any of "Islamophobia" was such that, at least on a quantitative level, the two were most certainly not the same.

Anyone could have added to the Conservative Party thread at any point but it plumetted down the messageboard.

I put the word Islamophobia into inverted commas depending on the context. If I don't believe the accusation has merit, I'll use inverted commas. If I think the accusation is warranted, I won't. It's that simple.

There is undoubtedly some Islamophobia in the Conservative Party. I don't think it is a major or widespread problem. Certainly nowhere near the problem Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party had with anti-semitism.

The EHRC have yet to launch an inquiry into the Conservative Party. Maybe they're as partisan as I am?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:51 am

Hmm, looks like you'd decided pretty quickly that accusations didn't have merit as you started the thread with

This is the thread to post allegations of "Islamophobia" in the Conservative Party

Why were you dismissing all allegations without merit? It's almost like you'd already decided they were without merit.

Equally, there may be a valid reason why you uncritically posted allegations of labour anti-Semitism but dismissed allegations of Conservative party islamophobia as vague accusations (even when they were anything but) but I think people can make their own mind up on that.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:14 pm

Yes I thought from the very beginning that the allegations of "Islamophobia" were a false equivalence.

Feel free to post any examples you find the media, any Panorama programmes or investigations by the EHRC into alleged Islamophobia in the Conservative Party on that particular thread aggi.

Out of interest, if you think this is nothing other than a political football then why am I posting supportively of Keir Starmer?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:36 pm

What happened to the inquiry into islamophobia with the Conservative Party which Johnson promised?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by martin_p » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:59 pm

Rowls wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:14 pm
Yes I thought from the very beginning that the allegations of "Islamophobia" were a false equivalence.

Feel free to post any examples you find the media, any Panorama programmes or investigations by the EHRC into alleged Islamophobia in the Conservative Party on that particular thread aggi.

Out of interest, if you think this is nothing other than a political football then why am I posting supportively of Keir Starmer?
Because if you didn’t you’d have to be supportive of Jeremy Corbyn.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by JohnMcGreal » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:00 pm

I wonder which government scandal is occurring this time which has lead to Rowls booting the arse out of this thread again...

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by claretandy » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:13 pm

Here come the outriders....

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Spijed » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:29 pm

claretandy wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:13 pm
Here come the outriders....
Says someone who....

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:46 pm

Rowls wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:24 am


...I'll stop using the diminutive Jap in this very specific context when the world stops using the diminutive "Nazi" when they're referring to "National Socialists".
“Nazi” isn’t a racist epithet. “Jap” is, no matter which Japanese people you use it to describe.

Are you happy to use the “diminutive” of Pakistani when talking about people you dislike?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:47 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:46 pm
“Nazi” isn’t a racist epithet. “Jap” is, no matter which Japanese people you use it to describe.

Are you happy to use the “diminutive” of Pakistani when talking about people you dislike?
Are the terms Brits and Scots also racist?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:48 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:47 pm
Are the terms Brits and Scots also racist?
No.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:50 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:48 pm
No.
So it's selective as to which terms are racist depending on the view of the person?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by martin_p » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:52 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:50 pm
So it's selective as to which terms are racist depending on the view of the person?
No, it’s selective based on whether the term is used as a racist insult!

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:53 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:46 pm
“Nazi” isn’t a racist epithet. “Jap” is, no matter which Japanese people you use it to describe.

Are you happy to use the “diminutive” of Pakistani when talking about people you dislike?
No.

Any more questions?

I'm not going to stop using the word Jap when it comes to their repulsive Imperial army.

edit - and this "talking about people you dislike" ? What does that even mean in this context?
Last edited by Rowls on Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:55 pm

martin_p wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:52 pm
No, it’s selective based on whether the term is used as a racist insult!
That's close to it but it's not quite the whole picture. The intent, the context, the historical use all play a part.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:56 pm

martin_p wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:52 pm
No, it’s selective based on whether the term is used as a racist insult!
Yeah and I get that but many people wouldn't see an abbreviations of Japanese as racist.

Whilst we are talking about the term Japs, can we come up with a new nickname for the male external urethral orifice.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by martin_p » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:02 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:56 pm
Yeah and I get that but many people wouldn't see an abbreviations of Japanese as racist.

Whilst we are talking about the term Japs, can we come up with a new nickname for the male external urethral orifice.
There’s lots of people don’t see racist terms as racist. But while they’re being used by racists and the people the terms are aimed at are offended they’re best avoided. It isn’t really a problem not to use them is it?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by KateR » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:05 pm

just to help my confusion, is a diminutive of anything somehow racist, when I get called a Brit or indeed when I call myself a Brit is this somehow derogatory, because I often use Brit to describe myself with pride?

I would also say that having worked in the ME, I have had dealings with multiple nationalities over decades and discussions daily, including a majority of Indians/Pakistanis/Filipinos. Some I have met have said upon meeting I am a "Paki" to introduce themselves. I have never used the word myself as I understand/believe it to be used by many British as an insult, I was taken aback when they described themselves in this way and it was only a few in the hundreds I met.

For what it is worth, I believe anyone being called a Nazi is being insulted, however you want to package it.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:06 pm

martin_p wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:02 pm
There’s lots of people don’t see racist terms as racist. But while they’re being used by racists and the people the terms are aimed at are offended they’re best avoided. It isn’t really a problem not to use them is it?
Personally I don't know any Japanese people so I don't know if they find the term offensive or not.

The Scots are in trouble then for using the word sassenach, hope our Scottish fans haven't been using it :?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:13 pm

martin_p wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:02 pm
There’s lots of people don’t see racist terms as racist. But while they’re being used by racists and the people the terms are aimed at are offended they’re best avoided. It isn’t really a problem not to use them is it?
That's well and good too but, again, it's not the full picture.

The inference and connotation of a word isn't derived solely from the recipient; there is interplay between speaker and audience.

If we were to rely solely on recipients deciding the intention of any particular word then speakers would effectively lose agency over what they said and what their intent was. That's a ridiculous situation and one that would be open to abuse.

For example, I might disruptively claim that the word "Tory" was a hideous insult. It certainly does get used as an insult. So if I claimed that the word offended me would it also have to join the list of banned words?

We've got to be very careful in proscribing certain words. It should be the exception, not the rule.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by martin_p » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:20 pm

Rowls wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:13 pm
That's well and good too but, again, it's not the full picture.

The inference and connotation of a word isn't derived solely from the recipient; there is interplay between speaker and audience.

If we were to rely solely on recipients deciding the intention of any particular word then speakers would effectively lose agency over what they said and what their intent was. That's a ridiculous situation and one that would be open to abuse.

For example, I might disruptively claim that the word "Tory" was a hideous insult. It certainly does get used as an insult. So if I claimed that the word offended me would it also have to join the list of banned words?

We've got to be very careful in proscribing certain words. It should be the exception, not the rule.
I think it’d have to offend more than you (although I would be offended if anyone thought me a Tory). But being a Tory is a choice anyway, we’re talking about racism here which by it’s very nature is connected with the country/race (and I suppose religion) into which people were born.
Last edited by martin_p on Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by martin_p » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:21 pm

Edit - duplicate

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:48 pm

martin_p wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:20 pm
I think it’d have to offend more than you (although I would be offended if anyone thought me a Tory). But being a Tory is a choice anyway, we’re talking about racism here which by it’s very nature is connected with the country/race (and I suppose religion) into which people were born.
Agree. So it's not a simple case of causing "offence". You've also listed three other factors (inherent birth characteristics, nationality, race) which shows it isn't a simple thing to define.

*******

I note that Greenmile hasn't got back to me.

The fact that he feels the need to question me on my motive and what I find to be racist has shown up his prejudices on the matter - he appears to think that Conservatives are racist and that Labour supporters cannot be racist.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by martin_p » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:54 pm

Rowls wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:48 pm
Agree. So it's not a simple case of causing "offence". You've also listed three other factors (inherent birth characteristics, nationality, race) which shows it isn't a simple thing to define.

*******

I note that Greenmile hasn't got back to me.

The fact that he feels the need to question me on my motive and what I find to be racist has shown up his prejudices on the matter - he appears to think that Conservatives are racist and that Labour supporters cannot be racist.
But it is about causing offence within the context of the conversation that was taking place, I.e. racist terms. You took a detour into general offence which isn’t what I (or others) were talking about.

Rowls
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:05 pm

martin_p wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:54 pm
But it is about causing offence within the context of the conversation that was taking place, I.e. racist terms. You took a detour into general offence which isn’t what I (or others) were talking about.
Well general offence and racist offence are both kinds of offence so I don't think it's broadly the same direction.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by martin_p » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:15 pm

Rowls wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:05 pm
Well general offence and racist offence are both kinds of offence so I don't think it's broadly the same direction.
But your point about being offended by being called ‘Tory’ isn’t relevant to a discussion about racist terms, that’s the point. If I called someone a w****r they may take offence, but it would have no relevance to a conversation about racist terms.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:30 pm

martin_p wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:15 pm
But your point about being offended by being called ‘Tory’ isn’t relevant to a discussion about racist terms, that’s the point. If I called someone a w****r they may take offence, but it would have no relevance to a conversation about racist terms.
It was relevant to the discussion about whether offence is solely decided by the recipient. It isn't. It is an interplay between the speaker, recipient and many, many cultural factors.

If you want to be obtuse about it, then interchange the word "Tory" with "Brit" and my point still stands. I cannot suddenly declare that the word is "offensive" and have my declaration trump your intent in calling me any of these words.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by KateR » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:05 pm

I know that some have posted different threads that anyone and everyone voting Tory, are the **** of the earth and are brainwashed, in addition to being born with silver spoons in their mouth. Clearly offensive and no way it was not meant to be offensive.

I know I read a paper, which was part of a plan around recruiting for large projects where different nationalities were placed in buckets of First world, Second World, Third World. Brits and Western Europeans were placed in the Second World bucket, while Eastern Europeans and South Africans were placed in the Third World bucket along with the whole of SE Asia. I found this offensive but I'm not sure it was intended to be racist by the author.

Additionally, the inflection put on words can alter any sentence to mean offensive and racist, where normally spoken might not be either to the listener, so context with words is clearly very important as to whether it's offensive and/or racist.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:34 pm

Rowls wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:48 pm
The fact that he feels the need to question me on my motive and what I find to be racist has shown up his prejudices on the matter - he appears to think that Conservatives are racist and that Labour supporters cannot be racist.
Well, since you've asked...

The political party one supports really has nothing to do with it.

I believe someone who regularly takes the side of racists in any debate - be that football fans singing a racist chant, a manager racially abusing one of his own players, a journalist comparing a young man of african heritage to a gorilla, or even a Prime Minister with a history of making racist comments - is probably a racist.

I believe someone who is perfectly happy to throw a racist epithet around, on the basis that the people he uses it to describe were also pretty terrible people - is probably a racist.

I believe someone who only cares about racism when he can weaponise it against a politician he doesn't like is probably a racist, and a hypocrite to boot.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:41 pm

Rowls wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:14 pm
Yes I thought from the very beginning that the allegations of "Islamophobia" were a false equivalence.

Feel free to post any examples you find the media, any Panorama programmes or investigations by the EHRC into alleged Islamophobia in the Conservative Party on that particular thread aggi.

Out of interest, if you think this is nothing other than a political football then why am I posting supportively of Keir Starmer?
Ah, so you'd decided in advance that they were without merit without seeing the evidence. Nothing like being open minded.

A quick search shows one "compliment" on Starmer's approach whilst simultaneously suggesting it will take a long time to sort the party out.

I guess the alternative question to answer is, if it isn't a political football, why are you so quick to dismiss allegations of islamophobia? Do you not think it should be dealt with? Why are you so keen to talk it down?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Damo » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:37 pm

Bump

clarethomer
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by clarethomer » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:44 pm

Damo wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:37 pm
Bump
subtle.... :mrgreen:
These 2 users liked this post: Damo LeadBelly

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:53 pm

It is the medias fault......
This user liked this post: LeadBelly

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:03 pm

Reading back through this one could be interesting.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by TVC15 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:05 pm

Corbyn was a poor leader in so many respects.
He allowed this to happen through his development of Momentum and his drive to get his membership numbers increased.
This myopic strategy meant all those militant lefty loonies were let back in - but this time round they had a new toy to play with - social media. And they did play with it bullying and spewing their vitriol and anti semitism

Corbyn allowed it to happen - he received many many complaints and did nothing. He only recognised it as an issue when it got in the media and even then did far too little failing to apologise and not getting rid of the sources of the issues.

Like any party or leader he had people blindly supporting his actions (or lack of them) - they were wrong but they did it for the reason that many politicians make mistakes - to protect their own position in the party.

For me there should be criminal prosecution for those directly involved - the evidence is there. I would not be against Corbyn being prosecuted too if it can be proven he did not act upon or report to the authorities evidence of anti semitism.

Not really sure what more Starmer could have done. From the day he was elected he said his priority was to sort this out in his party and he has done this.
Yes he sat in Corbyn’s party at the time but it’s only the leader who has the power to make the real change - for all we know Starmer could have been pushing for this change throughout his time under JC.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by claretandy » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:10 pm

Decisive action from Sir Keir to suspend Corbyn.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by aggi » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:33 pm

Damo wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:37 pm
Bump
Cheers, I'd entirely forgotten that Rowls had evaded answering that post.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Damo » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:46 pm

aggi wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:33 pm
Cheers, I'd entirely forgotten that Rowls had evaded answering that post.
To quote Rowls, feel free to post instances of islamaphobia in the Conservative Party on the "islamaphobia in the Conservative party" thread.
Otherwise you could be accused of defending anti-semitism in the Labour Party, by trying to divert the conversation

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