Educate me please

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Tricky Trevor
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Educate me please

Post by Tricky Trevor » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:51 pm

Amber Rudd has apologised for calling Diane Abbott, “coloured”.

If you are in a debate about racism what is an acceptable term?

I’m baffled. It’s like IDing a suspect to the police. He was over 6’, he wore a green jacket, he had big feet but god forbid that you say he was Afro-Caribbean or Middle Eastern or Far Eastern. All of which would narrow the search dramatically.

Claret
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Claret » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:58 pm

The correct term is colourful

Goobs
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Goobs » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:02 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Amber Rudd has apologised for calling Diane Abbott, “coloured”.

If you are in a debate about racism what is an acceptable term?

I’m baffled. It’s like IDing a suspect to the police. He was over 6’, he wore a green jacket, he had big feet but god forbid that you say he was Afro-Caribbean or Middle Eastern or Far Eastern. All of which would narrow the search dramatically.
Whoa now, let's not be assuming gender thank you very much.

fidelcastro
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Re: Educate me please

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:06 pm

Probably because it's an outdated meaningless term that belongs in the 1970's.

We're all coloured ffs!

Aclaret
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Aclaret » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:07 pm

You can't call her coloured yet we are white ! which is a colour !
I think the correct terminology these days is " a suntanned complexion "

fidelcastro
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Re: Educate me please

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:10 pm

Aclaret wrote:You can't call her coloured yet we are white ! which is a colour !
I think the correct terminology these days is " a suntanned complexion "
No, the term is "black".

It's really not difficult, when you think about it.

:roll:
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evensteadiereddie
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Re: Educate me please

Post by evensteadiereddie » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:13 pm

Amber Rudd should apologise for being Amber Rudd.
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Dazzler
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Dazzler » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:16 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Amber Rudd has apologised for calling Diane Abbott, “coloured”.

If you are in a debate about racism what is an acceptable term?
I'd tread very carefully on this if I were you.
The hard left will deem you racist for not knowing what term is acceptable. ;)

fidelcastro
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Re: Educate me please

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:19 pm

Dazzler wrote:I'd tread very carefully on this if I were you.
The hard left will deem you racist for not knowing what term is acceptable. ;)
No. Just ignorant.

Aclaret
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Aclaret » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:19 pm

Dazzler wrote:I'd tread very carefully on this if I were you.
The hard left will deem you racist for not knowing what term is acceptable. ;)
You mean it's not Black or White but a Grey area.

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Re: Educate me please

Post by duncandisorderly » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:21 pm

I don't know the context, but firstly 'coloured' is an awful word, really. It has no connotations other than racist ones, as it's like 'white' vs 'not white'.

Secondly, I don't know what the agreeable word is, other than 'person'. I'm not trying to be all righteous or anything, but round the Burnley and Pendle area there aren't a great many 'black' people, and 'asian' is such a broad descriptor that you might as well mean 'not english'.
She's brown. There's no getting away from that, but she's British. I don't know what heritage she has to make her skin colour that way, just like I don't know what heritage I have to make my skin colour the colour it is (raping and pillaging vikings no doubt), but if the idea of modern society is to move away from skin colour being a thing then we have to stop making skin colour a thing.

fidelcastro
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Re: Educate me please

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:25 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:I don't know the context, but firstly 'coloured' is an awful word, really. It has no connotations other than racist ones, as it's like 'white' vs 'not white'.

Secondly, I don't know what the agreeable word is, other than 'person'. I'm not trying to be all righteous or anything, but round the Burnley and Pendle area there aren't a great many 'black' people, and 'asian' is such a broad descriptor that you might as well mean 'not english'.
She's brown. There's no getting away from that, but she's British. I don't know what heritage she has to make her skin colour that way, just like I don't know what heritage I have to make my skin colour the colour it is (raping and pillaging vikings no doubt), but if the idea of modern society is to move away from skin colour being a thing then we have to stop making skin colour a thing.
Thanks for clearing that up then.

:P

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Re: Educate me please

Post by Guppyspotter » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:28 pm

The correct term is 'black'. Diane Abbott whilst not my favourite member of the cabinet is quite right to call out Amber Rudd on this one. Rudd is desperately trying to show her understanding of how difficult it is for black women yet shows that she hasn't a clue by her 'clumsy' use of racist terminology.

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Re: Educate me please

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:31 pm

Of course, if you say you're white these days, they'll arrest you and throw you in jail, won't they?

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Re: Educate me please

Post by BFCmaj » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:33 pm

Amber and ruddy are both colours.

Dazzler
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Dazzler » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:33 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:but if the idea of modern society is to move away from skin colour being a thing then we have to stop making skin colour a thing.
"Sorry officer,due to the racial discrimination act,I am not at liberty to inform you of the suspects skin colour"

karatekid
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Re: Educate me please

Post by karatekid » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:45 pm

'' He was of human colour officer ''

dpinsussex
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Re: Educate me please

Post by dpinsussex » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:49 pm

Claret wrote:The correct term is colourful
I think you will find the correct term is thick
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Imploding Turtle
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:51 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Amber Rudd has apologised for calling Diane Abbott, “coloured”.

If you are in a debate about racism what is an acceptable term?

I’m baffled. It’s like IDing a suspect to the police. He was over 6’, he wore a green jacket, he had big feet but god forbid that you say he was Afro-Caribbean or Middle Eastern or Far Eastern. All of which would narrow the search dramatically.

Black, ethnic, minority, etc. Coloured has been taboo for a while now, but it's usually not used maliciously like some other words are so a simple apology is usually fine and it's forgotten about.

I think it's kinda like "he/she is a Jew" in that people use it not realising it's taboo when what they really mean is "he/she is Jewish".
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CombatClaret
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Re: Educate me please

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:55 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Amber Rudd has apologised for calling Diane Abbott, “coloured”.

If you are in a debate about racism what is an acceptable term?

I’m baffled. It’s like IDing a suspect to the police. He was over 6’, he wore a green jacket, he had big feet but god forbid that you say he was Afro-Caribbean or Middle Eastern or Far Eastern. All of which would narrow the search dramatically.
Here's why.
Cast-Iron-Segregation-Sign-Colored-Entrance-Only-Atlanta.jpg
Cast-Iron-Segregation-Sign-Colored-Entrance-Only-Atlanta.jpg (18.02 KiB) Viewed 3473 times
The term black is 100% acceptable and I used it to describe to the police the perpetrator of car break in I witnessed not nearly 3 months ago.
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Imploding Turtle
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:59 pm

Dazzler wrote:I'd tread very carefully on this if I were you.
The hard left will deem you racist for not knowing what term is acceptable. ;)
This is what idiots want you to believe about the left "everyone to the left is "hard left" nowadays). But as has already been pointed out to you, Dazzler, it's just ignorance rather than racism when someone uses a racist term unwittingly.

But you carry on calling us lefties all "hard left", and you carry on telling people that we think everyone's racist. It only makes you look stupid, which I enjoy.
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Tricky Trevor » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:01 pm

Thanks guys. If it ever crops up I’ll go with black but I find that more offensive than coloured but I don’t know why.
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nil_desperandum
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Re: Educate me please

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:01 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Black, ethnic, minority, etc. Coloured has been taboo for a while now, but it's usually not used maliciously like some other words are so a simple apology is usually fine and it's forgotten about.

I think it's kinda like "he/she is a Jew" in that people use it not realising it's taboo when what they really mean is "he/she is Jewish".
Agreed.
Normally, not much would have been made of it, but it was incredibly careless and clumsy, and the ultimate irony that Ms Rudd used it in the context of the conversation she was engaged in; and it does therefore raise a few questions about her suitability for high office.
(For the benefit of some posters: I am not suggesting for one minute that Ms Rudd is a racist or intended any offence whatsoever)

mkmel
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Re: Educate me please

Post by mkmel » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:02 pm

Talking about malicious racist comments my fiancee was called a Pakki by an alcoholic husband of a lady friend of mine
Even though she is a Filipina

Fenwick
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Fenwick » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:03 pm

Is " black" ok? Not African British? Like her or loathe her the woman's only guilty of momentarily forgetting what the new orthodoxy is. And she was standing up for Mrs no-maths !

Imploding Turtle
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:03 pm

mkmel wrote:Talking about malicious racist comments my fiancee was called a Pakki by an alcoholic husband of a lady friend of mine
Even though she is a Filipina

People who use racist terms maliciously don't tend to be the smartest people.

Hapag Lloyd
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Hapag Lloyd » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:06 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
We're all coloured ffs!
Apart from Diane Abbot apparently.
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CombatClaret
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Re: Educate me please

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:09 pm

Another one for anyone who is blind to context and playing the semantics game.
1950-Segregated-Water-Fountains-in-North-Carolina-by-Elliott-Erwitt.jpg
1950-Segregated-Water-Fountains-in-North-Carolina-by-Elliott-Erwitt.jpg (20.79 KiB) Viewed 3385 times
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Dazzler
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Dazzler » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:30 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:This is what idiots want you to believe about the left "everyone to the left is "hard left" nowadays). But as has already been pointed out to you, Dazzler, it's just ignorance rather than racism when someone uses a racist term unwittingly.

But you carry on calling us lefties all "hard left", and you carry on telling people that we think everyone's racist. It only makes you look stupid, which I enjoy.
FFS Chill your head man...what do you think the ;) was for?

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Re: Educate me please

Post by Foulthrow » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:38 pm

Coloured person = not acceptable.

Person of colour = acceptable.

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Re: Educate me please

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:50 pm

You never know what to say these days regarding people's skin colour, it's so easy to say the wrong thing even when well intentioned somebody will jump onto it & make something from it, i find it easier to not even refer to any skin colour or any derogatory term if i can help it.

fidelcastro
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Re: Educate me please

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:17 pm

Hapag Lloyd wrote:Apart from Diane Abbot apparently.
Erm... actually no.

The reason rudd has been pulled up on this is because she used the word to describe Abbott, in the context in which she singled her out. If she'd used the term "black" there would have been no issue. This will be old news by the end of tomorrow anyway.

I noticed that tim loon liked you post, which rather says it all! :roll:

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Re: Educate me please

Post by LoveCurryPies » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:29 pm

fidelcastro wrote:No, the term is "black".

It's really not difficult, when you think about it.

:roll:
There’s no need to refer to colour at all. Not white, pink, black, brown, coloured....

Simply refer to a person by their name.

All the conversations on the many threads on this forum....when did you ever read “Ashley Barnes the salmon pink forward...” or “Tom Heaton, a creamy mushoroom coloured goalkeeper...”

You can say anything you like about Diane but her colour is irrelevant.

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Re: Educate me please

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:35 pm

I'd describe Diane Abbott as fat, pathetic and unacceptable.
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fidelcastro
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Re: Educate me please

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:35 pm

LoveCurryPies wrote:There’s no need to refer to colour at all. Not white, pink, black, brown, coloured....

Simply refer to a person by their name.

All the conversations on the many threads on this forum....when did you ever read “Ashley Barnes the salmon pink forward...” or “Tom Heaton, a creamy mushoroom coloured goalkeeper...”

You can say anything you like about Diane but her colour is irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant when people are making racist remarks on social media and the like, which is the point that rudd was making before expressing it clumsily.

Your analogies are bizarre, to be honest.

Indecisive
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Re: Educate me please

Post by Indecisive » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:37 pm

Pretty careless by Rudd.

Most people know coloured isn’t acceptable and, rightly, it is people of colour who make this decision as to what they do or don’t find offensive.

Diane Abbot in turn has decided to take it a certain way. The danger with that is that many will view it as political point scoring.

Realistically I’m not sure today’s incident will change anyone’s previously held view of either individual :) .

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Re: Educate me please

Post by tim_noone » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:42 pm

Bin Ont Turf wrote:I'd describe Diane Abbott as fat, pathetic and unacceptable.
And to quote FC. Black.

fidelcastro
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Re: Educate me please

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:47 pm

tim_noone wrote:And to quote FC. Black.
Yes. She's a black female politician, tim loon. What's your point?

:?

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Re: Educate me please

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:53 pm

fidelcastro wrote:Yes. She's a black female politician, tim loon. What's your point?

:?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj84tfS7ag4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Educate me please

Post by tim_noone » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:54 pm

fidelcastro wrote:Yes. She's a black female politician, tim loon. What's your point?

:?
Exactly that....

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Re: Educate me please

Post by dsr » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:58 pm

It has been decided, by the self-appointed arbiters of acceptability, that "coloured" is offensive and outdated, partly because the idea that people with dark skin are coloured and those with light skin are not; the correct term, as per Halle Berry in her Oscar speech, is "of colour" which has no such implications. Apparently.

But Amber Rudd can at least assure herself that she is in good company. The half a million members of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People presumably aren't too put out. They presumably don't find the term offensive.
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fidelcastro
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Re: Educate me please

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:59 pm

Aye, I remember that sketch from back in the day... and there wasn't one accusation of racism. It's always inoffensive, unless it's then followed by a pejorative term.

Context is always important. :)

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Re: Educate me please

Post by mdd2 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:01 pm

You can be of colour but not coloured.
In the last 5 years I have been ticked off by my son when watching my grandson playing football in a team with a player of colour who was head and shoulders above the rest. When i commented that the coloured lad was a good player, my son told me not to say coloured as it was not PC, but i should say black. i seem to remember being told never to call a person black but to call such a person coloured years ago. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose!!!!!!

fidelcastro
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Re: Educate me please

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:01 pm

tim_noone wrote:Exactly that....
What are you on about?

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Re: Educate me please

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:08 pm

dsr wrote:It has been decided, by the self-appointed arbiters of acceptability, that "coloured" is offensive and outdated, partly because the idea that people with dark skin are coloured and those with light skin are not
In your head maybe but I think Combat Claret is a lot closer to the mark around why the term coloured is deemed offensive and has negative connotations

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Re: Educate me please

Post by dsr » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:15 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:In your head maybe but I think Combat Claret is a lot closer to the mark around why the term coloured is deemed offensive and has negative connotations
But it can't be that offensive or the NAACP would have changed its name.

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Re: Educate me please

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:26 pm

dsr wrote:But it can't be that offensive or the NAACP would have changed its name.
Founded in 1909. I imagine if it was founded 50 years earlier I imagine it'd have been called NAAN, and the second N would still be racist today when used maliciously.

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Re: Educate me please

Post by dsr » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:36 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Founded in 1909. I imagine if it was founded 50 years earlier I imagine it'd have been called NAAN, and the second N would still be racist today when used maliciously.
Which brings us back to the circular point that Amber Rudd wasn't being malicious, and therefore (presumably) not racist.

If the NAACP had been called the NAAN, they would have changed it because of the gross offence often caused by that word. Coloured presumably does not cause such gross offence.

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Re: Educate me please

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:38 pm

dsr wrote:Which brings us back to the circular point that Amber Rudd wasn't being malicious, and therefore (presumably) not racist.

If the NAACP had been called the NAAN, they would have changed it because of the gross offence often caused by that word. Coloured presumably does not cause such gross offence.

OK. But has anyone said she was being racist?

Edit: And yes, there are degrees of offence when it comes to racist language, which is why we can comfortably use the word "coloured" in conversation but less comfortably use the word "nigger". One is more offensive than the other.

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Re: Educate me please

Post by Claretforever » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:46 pm

I fully understand why coloured is offensive and black is acceptable, although I must admit to not knowing until 20 years ago when innocently using the term with a black friend and being educated.

Whilst I now use black, my grandparents use the term coloured, despite neither of them seemingly doing it with any intention of racism. It’s seen as normal for their age (80’s), and I have heard other ‘oldies’ saying it, and they think of the term “black” as being racist as the skin colour is often not black, and it’s also linked to a very racist term of “black b****rd”, which they think is awful of course.

Is that just a UK v USA thing amongst the older age group?

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