Educate me please

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:56 pm

Claretforever wrote:I fully understand why coloured is offensive and black is acceptable, although I must admit to not knowing until 20 years ago when innocently using the term with a black friend and being educated.

Whilst I now use black, my grandparents use the term coloured, despite neither of them seemingly doing it with any intention of racism. It’s seen as normal for their age (80’s), and I have heard other ‘oldies’ saying it, and they think of the term “black” as being racist as the skin colour is often not black, and it’s also linked to a very racist term of “black b****rd”, which they think is awful of course.

Is that just a UK v USA thing amongst the older age group?

It's probably a digital age thing. Maybe "coloured" wasn't offensive here because it wasn't used as a weapon of suppression here like it was in the US, and as the internet has allowed a sort of merging of vocabularies we've learned more about it. I might be wrong but i don't think the UK ever had widespread segregation, certainly not on the scale the US had it, so there was never widespread use of "coloureds" signs at water fountains, or toilets or exits and entrances etc. That would explain why your grandparents use it innocently.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:02 am

Claretforever wrote:I fully understand why coloured is offensive and black is acceptable, although I must admit to not knowing until 20 years ago when innocently using the term with a black friend and being educated.

Whilst I now use black, my grandparents use the term coloured, despite neither of them seemingly doing it with any intention of racism. It’s seen as normal for their age (80’s), and I have heard other ‘oldies’ saying it, and they think of the term “black” as being racist as the skin colour is often not black, and it’s also linked to a very racist term of “black b****rd”, which they think is awful of course.

Is that just a UK v USA thing amongst the older age group?

The term coloured was a Yank thing. Coons was a UK thing.

The really offensive one that I don't like is the 'N' word.

Yet they call each other that in the US, and it seems acceptable.

The Enclosure · Post by **The Enclosure** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:55 am

I blame the BBC they started it all...

https://youtu.be/KoYOraDt1_k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:16 am

The Enclosure wrote:I blame the BBC they started it all...

https://youtu.be/KoYOraDt1_k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEj2KDWdT78" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfjzKYXzsjA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:44 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:This is what idiots want you to believe about the left "everyone to the left is "hard left" nowadays). But as has already been pointed out to you, Dazzler, it's just ignorance rather than racism when someone uses a racist term unwittingly.

But you carry on calling us lefties all "hard left", and you carry on telling people that we think everyone's racist. It only makes you look stupid, which I enjoy.

That reminds me

Republic of Ireland press conference,World Cup finals,1990

Interviewer:"Jack,which of the Egyptians have impressed you"?
Jack Charlton:"I couldn't tell you,I don't know their names.There was the boy with the beard,the dark lad in midfield,the keeper,the little dark lad who played centre-midfield,the very coloured boy and the boy who played up front - Hassan..Hussain"?

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:52 am

It’s hilarious when people use the term “ coloured” as they fall into 2 camps . The tongue tied middle classes trying desperately not to offend and the ( usually) liberals who can’t bear to use the word “ black” Rudd’s example being a bit of both imo . Though supremely ironic that the “ deeply offended” Dianne Abbot is one of the most racist MP’s to have ever set foot in the house

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:14 am

Dazzler wrote:FFS Chill your head man...what do you think the was for?

A lame attempt at a save but creditable nonetheless...

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:17 am

Well worth a listen, John Barnes schools Shelagh Forgharty over virtue signalling about Amber Rudd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeimAnv ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:32 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:It's probably a digital age thing. Maybe "coloured" wasn't offensive here because it wasn't used as a weapon of suppression here like it was in the US, and as the internet has allowed a sort of merging of vocabularies we've learned more about it. I might be wrong but i don't think the UK ever had widespread segregation, certainly not on the scale the US had it, so there was never widespread use of "coloureds" signs at water fountains, or toilets or exits and entrances etc. That would explain why your grandparents use it innocently.

No we didn't segregate but i also think why folk in my generation use coloured and I think Dianne should reflect is we lovely Brits used to post in certain guest houses, hotels signs which read No Blacks and sometimes included no Irish or dogs-now IT you might ask why I don't find Irish or dogs offensive and I wouldn't know except at that time Blacks was a word used to discriminate- much like Coloured in the US and USA.
Anyway I am now in the Black camp if I have to use it to identify as opposed to PC Harry Carpenter who referred to a black boxer-v a white one as the one in the red shorts

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:43 am

mdd2 wrote:No we didn't segregate but i also think why folk in my generation use coloured and I think Dianne should reflect is we lovely Brits used to post in certain guest houses, hotels signs which read No Blacks and sometimes included no Irish or dogs-now IT you might ask why I don't find Irish or dogs offensive and I wouldn't know except at that time Blacks was a word used to discriminate- much like Coloured in the US and USA.
Anyway I am now in the Black camp if I have to use it to identify as opposed to PC Harry Carpenter who referred to a black boxer-v a white one as the one in the red shorts

“Black” is fine for an adjective to describe a person, but not as a noun (as in “no blacks”).

So “no black people” would be fine, linguistically, though obviously the message would still be abhorrent.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:59 am

mdd2 wrote:No we didn't segregate but i also think why folk in my generation use coloured and I think Dianne should reflect is we lovely Brits used to post in certain guest houses, hotels signs which read No Blacks and sometimes included no Irish or dogs-now IT you might ask why I don't find Irish or dogs offensive and I wouldn't know except at that time Blacks was a word used to discriminate- much like Coloured in the US and USA.
Anyway I am now in the Black camp if I have to use it to identify as opposed to PC Harry Carpenter who referred to a black boxer-v a white one as the one in the red shorts

Ah. I see.

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:35 am

Dianne Abbot is an idiot and clutching at straws to get headlines.Shes black .an MP and a woman.
Is that all bases covered?

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:39 am

AndyClaret wrote:Well worth a listen, John Barnes schools Shelagh Forgharty over virtue signalling about Amber Rudd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeimAnv ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I really thought John Barnes was absolutely spot on. The important issue relating to black women getting abuse was lost because Amber Rudd (who I cant stand at all) made an honest mistake because of using the wrong word.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:46 am

I don’t think anyone thinks that Rudd was using the term in a racist or offensive manner. I know a number of people of a certain age who will use the term coloured. It makes me cringe when I hear it but it’s just ignorance, and I don’t mean ignorance necessarily in a nasty way. That said, it’s very easy to ‘move with the times’ and use the correct terminology.

Corky · Post by **Corky** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:52 am

Post 20 showed quite clearly why it is an issue. Post 30 showed why it can also become a bit stupid. In this country we call people of West Indian descent Black but people of Indian/Pakistani descent are called Asian. And as I have pointed out to the, admittedly few, Black friends that I have if they want to do down the route of calling themselves people of colour then I reserve the right to call myself a person of more colour.

We laugh about it. Shame more can't do that.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:53 am

Twice in a week I have heard John Barnes nail someone white who wants to be offended on behalf of the black community. If all people of every colour and religion could take a leaf out of his book about things imagine how much easier things would be.

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:58 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Twice in a week I have heard John Barnes nail someone white

Ooeeer Mrs

Tricky Trevor · Post by **Tricky Trevor** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:35 am

I’m pleased to have started a thread that’s had honest discussion rather than abuse.
I really did ask in all seriousness. The use of either term would very, very rarely come into my life so on reading the article about Rudd I thought I’d ask the font of wisdom that is this board. Cheers, guys.

BurnleyFC · Post by **BurnleyFC** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:38 am

fidelcastro wrote:No, the term is "black".

It's really not difficult, when you think about it.

It is if you’re actually brown.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:00 am

Tricky Trevor wrote:I’m pleased to have started a thread that’s had honest discussion rather than abuse.
I really did ask in all seriousness. The use of either term would very, very rarely come into my life so on reading the article about Rudd I thought I’d ask the font of wisdom that is this board. Cheers, guys.

Agreed.
But: This is the sort of thread that would presumably disappear if the MODS deliver on the recent "People's Vote" on here to remove or segregate "political threads"

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:33 am

BurnleyFC wrote:It is if you’re actually brown.

Yes, that well known term to describe someone's race that is "brown".

Numpty.

StuffyClaret · Post by **StuffyClaret** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:38 am

I remember my mum ordering a carpet in N***er Brown back in the early 80's. I have never considered her as being racist but I did cringe at that.

I believe black or of african/afro-caribbean extraction would be acceptable in the above case. Likewise, of middle/far eastern extraction are acceptable for describing folk with those features

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:50 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Agreed.
But: This is the sort of thread that would presumably disappear if the MODS deliver on the recent "People's Vote" on here to remove or segregate "political threads"

You could also add the Tommy Robinson & anti semitism as potential candidates, maybe others Ive just had a quick glance.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:48 am

John Barnes is IMO very much feet on the ground man when it comes to these issues and that from a man who was appallingly treated by many football fans.
He was on question time recently and gave a superb (IMO) account about race and racism

gtclaret · Post by **gtclaret** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:08 pm

fidelcastro wrote:Probably because it's an outdated meaningless term that belongs in the 1970's.

We're all coloured ffs!

Yep, Amber (which if I am not mistaken is a colour) insulted one of the most racially divisive bigoted MP's in this current parliament

BurnleyFC · Post by **BurnleyFC** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:17 pm

fidelcastro wrote:Yes, that well known term to describe someone's race that is "brown".

Numpty.

Race?

And there’s me thinking you were describing the colour of their skin.

JTClaret · Post by **JTClaret** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:52 pm

It's not complicated or hard to understand. There's black and white. Some one with 'olive skin' is still considered white, and it works the other way.
I don't think somebody who says 'coloured' is a racist, unless they knowingly used the term derogatively. However, people have to understand it is inappropriate to use simply because of the history of the term and as mentioned numerous times on here... white is a colour.

IMO it can get complicated when trying to describe someone in detail, and opens a can of worms when it isn't a white person. Understandably, but it doesn't help the situation.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:17 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Amber Rudd has apologised for calling Diane Abbott, “coloured”.

If you are in a debate about racism what is an acceptable term?

I’m baffled. It’s like IDing a suspect to the police. He was over 6’, he wore a green jacket, he had big feet but god forbid that you say he was Afro-Caribbean or Middle Eastern or Far Eastern. All of which would narrow the search dramatically.

Constable Savage will educate you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teSPN8sVbFU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Spike · Post by **Spike** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:22 pm

Political correctness is entirely one sided!

Before long we wont be able to call our poorer east Lancashire neighbours by the B word.

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:12 pm

Imagine:

HMS Victory at The Battle of Trafalgar

Nelson - Give the order to hoist my signal Hardy.
Hardy - Aye Aye Sir
N - England expects every person to do his duty, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religious persuasion or disability. What gobbledegook is this?
H - Admiralty policy I'm afraid, Sir. We're an equal opportunities employer now. We had devils own job getting 'England' past the censors, lest it be considered racist
N -Gadzooks, Hardy Hand me my pipe and tobacco.
H - Sorry Sir, All naval vessels have been designated smoke-free working environments.
N - In that case, break open a cask of rum. Let us splice the main brace to steel the men before battle.
H - The rum ration has been abolished Admiral. It's a part of Governments policy on binge drinking.
N - Good heavens Hardy, I suppose we had better get on with it. Full speed ahead.
H - I think you'll find there is a 4-knot speed limit on this stretch of water.
N - Dammit man, we are on the eve of the greatest sea battle in history. We must attack with all dispatch. Report from the crow's nest, please!
H - That won't be possible Sir. - Health and Safety have closed the crow's nest sir, No harness. They say that the rope ladder does not meet with regulations. They won't let anyone up there until a proper scaffolding can be erected.
N - Then get the ships' carpenter without delay, Hardy.
H - Unfortunately he's busy knocking up wheelchair access to the fo'c'sle, Admiral.
N - Wheelchair access? I've never heard anything so absurd.
H - Health and Safety again, Sir. We have to provide a barrier-free environment for the differently abled.
N - Differently abled? I've only one arm and one eye and I refuse even to hear mention of the word. I didn't rise to the rank of admiral by playing the disability card.
H - Actually Sir, you did. The Royal Navy is under-represented in the areas of visual impairment and limb deficiency.
N -Whatever next? Give me full sail. The salt spray beckons.
H - A couple of problems there, too Sir. Health and Safety won't let the men aloft without crash helmets. And they don't want anyone breathing in too much salt - haven't you seen the adverts?
N - I've never heard of such infamy. Break out the cannon and tell the men to stand by to engage the enemy.
H - The men are a bit worried about shooting at anyone, Admiral.
N - What? This is mutiny.
H - It's not that Sir, It's just that they are afraid of being charged for murder if they actually kill anyone. There are a couple of human rights lawyers on board, watching everyone like hawks.
N - Then how are we supposed to sink the French and the Spanish?
H - Actually Sir, we're not!The French and Spanish are our European partners now. According to the Common Fisheries Policy, we shouldn't even be in this stretch of water. We could get hit with a huge claim for compensation.
N - But you must hate a Frenchman as you hate the devil.
H - I wouldn't let the ship's diversity co-ordinator hear you saying that Sir You could be up on a disciplinary.
N - But surely you must consider every man an enemy who speaks ill of your King.
H - Not any more sir. We must be inclusive in this multicultural age. Now put on your Kevlar vest, it's the rules.
N - Don't tell me - Health and Safety. What happened to rum, sodomy and the lash?
H - As I explained Sir, Rum is off the menu, and there is a ban on corporal punishment.
N - What about sodomy?
H - I believe that is to be encouraged Sir.
N - Thank God for that - In that case - kiss me Hardy!

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:12 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:A lame attempt at a save but creditable nonetheless...

Very serious & moralistic you lefties...

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:35 pm

For anyone who still doesn't *get* the difference between being a 'person of colour' and being 'coloured' here is a racist organisation you can go and join and hang around with your racist friends being racist:

https://www.naacp.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAACP" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for me, I'm off to hang around with my BAME POC-WOC pals whom I value as people.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:49 pm

mdd2 wrote:John Barnes is IMO very much feet on the ground man when it comes to these issues and that from a man who was appallingly treated by many football fans.
He was on question time recently and gave a superb (IMO) account about race and racism

Funnily enough I saw John Barnes outside my office in Leeds this afternoon. A colleague went out for a selfie!

Gerry Hattrick · Post by **Gerry Hattrick** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:10 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Funnily enough I saw John Barnes outside my office in Leeds this afternoon. A colleague went out for a selfie!

Monochrome?

Tricky Trevor · Post by **Tricky Trevor** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:27 pm

Dazzler wrote: kiss me Hardy!

Or was it “kismet, Hardy” ?

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:33 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Funnily enough I saw John Barnes outside my office in Leeds this afternoon. A colleague went out for a selfie!

Now thats sad .... going for a "hand shandy" over John Barnes

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