Tax rises in Burnley

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:48 pm

Council tax up 4.5 percent which includes a 13.5 percent hike for policing.

Excellent value for money if you ask me.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:50 pm

Actually 4.7 percent. Actually its a rip off at that.

Transpennine · Post by **Transpennine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:08 pm

Trying to make up for the shortfall due to the huge cuts in central govt funding. Central government cuts the budget but local councils get the blame....

gawthorpe_view · Post by **gawthorpe_view** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:49 pm

Just under £2,000 for two adults living in a Band D property.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:57 pm

gawthorpe_view wrote:Just under £2,000 for two adults living in a Band D property.

Cant be bad

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:26 pm

4.99% where I live - highest permitted w/out requirement for a referendum (

).

But still a little less than £2,000 for Band D property.

Transpennine · Post by **Transpennine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:36 pm

Don't blame the council. They've essential services to provide. Give Hammond and May a bell...

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:38 pm

Transpennine wrote:Don't blame the council. They've essential services to provide. Give Hammond and May a bell...

Ive not blamed the council. I think we get excellent value. The police especially is worth the 13.5 percent hike.

Transpennine · Post by **Transpennine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:39 pm

Not the Top Gear cretins...

barba · Post by **barba** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:46 pm

I'd guess that 25-30% of council tax goes to fund staff pensions.

basil6345789 · Post by **basil6345789** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:51 pm

Transpennine wrote:Don't blame the council. They've essential services to provide. Give Hammond and May a bell...

Like providing foreign language interpreters?

Transpennine · Post by **Transpennine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:02 pm

barba wrote:I'd guess that 25-30% of council tax goes to fund staff pensions.

I'm not sure what your skill is; but it isn't guessing. Or maths.

taio · Post by **taio** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:04 pm

basil6345789 wrote:Like providing foreign language interpreters?

Presume he was referring to adult and children's social care, schools, education, highways, public health, waste, housing. Councils will spend a tiny proportion of their budgets on interpretation services as required by law, but I can't imagine he was referring to those.

Transpennine · Post by **Transpennine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:05 pm

basil6345789 wrote:Like providing foreign language interpreters?

No. Like looking after vulnerable children, the elderly, disabled and those who don't even know how to buy a pot to **** in...

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:17 pm

Transpennine wrote:I'm not sure what your skill is; but it isn't guessing. Or maths.

Hi Transpennine, 25% to 30% is a pretty modest estimate for the cost of final salary pensions - though that's not how the public sector account for these "deferred salary" expenses. It's more often expensed on a cash spend basis, I believe, rather than expensing on an estimate of the future liability.

I don't know a lot about local council pension arrangements. Are they still final salary or have they moved to some form of average salary or - like most of the private sector - defined contributions? I also don't know what the contribution rate is for existing employees.

I know that there's been talk of amalgamating a number of the large council pension funds to try and cut some of the admin expenses, but I've not heard of any completed deals, as yet.

EDIT: I've now read the Actuarial Valuation Report for Lancashire Council Pension Fund as at 31 March 2016 - the last 3 year valuation period - published March 2017, so another year before the next 3 year valuation is published.

All the individual employers' contribution rates are listed, not just councils, but even individual schools. Burnley Borough Council is paying 15.4% of pensionable salary + £1.4 million as contribution to aim to clear, over a 16 year period, the funds deficit. Employees are reported to contribute, on average, 6.4%.

So, yes, my numbers are too high for Burnley Borough Council and all the other members of the Lancashire Council Pension Fund.

So, combined cost of employer + employee contributions is between 22% and 23%.

http://www.yourpensionservice.org.uk/me ... t-2016.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

taio · Post by **taio** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:23 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Transpennine, 25% to 30% is a pretty modest estimate for the cost of final salary pensions - though that's not how the public sector account for these "deferred salary" expenses. It's more often expensed on a cash spend basis, I believe, rather than expensing on an estimate of the future liability.

I don't know a lot about local council pension arrangements. Are they still final salary or have they moved to some form of average salary or - like most of the private sector - defined contributions? I also don't know what the contribution rate is for existing employees.

I know that there's been talk of amalgamating a number of the large council pension funds to try and cut some of the admin expenses, but I've not heard of any completed deals, as yet.

Not final salary and contributions will vary according to salary. commonplace across public sector.

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:28 pm

Not that bad I pay £2800 for the year

Transpennine · Post by **Transpennine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:31 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Transpennine, 25% to 30% is a pretty modest estimate for the cost of final salary pensions - though that's not how the public sector account for these "deferred salary" expenses. It's more often expensed on a cash spend basis, I believe, rather than expensing on an estimate of the future liability.

I don't know a lot about local council pension arrangements. Are they still final salary or have they moved to some form of average salary or - like most of the private sector - defined contributions? I also don't know what the contribution rate is for existing employees.

I know that there's been talk of amalgamating a number of the large council pension funds to try and cut some of the admin expenses, but I've not heard of any completed deals, as yet.

Not as simple as that. Pensions do not form part of the capital or revenue expenditure. They're a private investment by the council. The point I am attempting to make, albeit not very well, is that the council relies on circa 70-80% of its income from the central fund (gvt) the rest is business rates, a tiny %of council tax (have a look at your bill) and a bit if parking.

They get a rough deal, but they're trying to help people.

Transpennine · Post by **Transpennine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:43 pm

To provide a different perspective. All council budgets (however small) have to be signed off by the councils cabinet I.e local councillors. Do you think that any one (regardless of party) wanted to approve an increase in council tax like this? They're pragmatic enough to realise they have no choice.

Transpennine · Post by **Transpennine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:44 pm

If you don't like it, contact your councillor and ask them if they approved the increase....

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:47 pm

Nice to see some healthy scepticism on tax rises here.

barba · Post by **barba** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:48 pm

Transpennine wrote:To provide a different perspective. All council budgets (however small) have to be signed off by the councils cabinet I.e local councillors. Do you think that any one (regardless of party) wanted to approve an increase in council tax like this? They're pragmatic enough to realise they have no choice.

With yields falling, liabilities and mortality increasing those gold plated pensions aint gonna fund themselves.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:50 pm

It's essential though because we can't be taxing the rich at appropriate rates because that would be too progressive.

Transpennine · Post by **Transpennine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:52 pm

Council tax increases do not fund council employees pensions...I really wish they did.

Pass me the gold plate.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:59 pm

Transpennine wrote:Not as simple as that. Pensions do not form part of the capital or revenue expenditure. They're a private investment by the council. The point I am attempting to make, albeit not very well, is that the council relies on circa 70-80% of its income from the central fund (gvt) the rest is business rates, a tiny %of council tax (have a look at your bill) and a bit if parking.

They get a rough deal, but they're trying to help people.

Hi Transpennine, see my edit above. Yes, I was on the high side with my estimate. I agree with your post that most of local gov't funding comes from central taxation funds (i.e. central gov't disburses based on their rules). I agree also that it's a tough decision for councillors to raise the council tax too far.

On the other hand, there are, thankfully not too often, some ridiculous council spending decisions.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:06 pm

Transpennine wrote:Council tax increases do not fund council employees pensions...I really wish they did.

Pass me the gold plate.

Hi, Tp, you might want to take a glance at the link I've posted above. The council (and employees) both contribute to the fund that the pensions are paid out of. As I've posted, Burnley B.C. is currently paying 15.4% of pensionable salaries + £1.4 million to reduce the deficit in the fund. Employees, on average, pay in 6.4%.

Without knowing the rules of any particular scheme, my expectation is that the lower paid staff pay in a smaller amount and the higher paid staff pay in more than 6.4%. Am I right on this?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:07 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It's essential though because we can't be taxing the rich at appropriate rates because that would be too progressive.

Hi IT, I wonder if you read The Times yesterday?

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:09 pm

If we're all a little more thoughtful we might get a bit of a discount...I only need to put out the recycling & waste just once a month rather than once a fortnight.

Transpennine · Post by **Transpennine** » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:15 pm

Thanks. I'm aware of the above arrangements, but it's a moot point. However referring to the OP.....Council tax has increased due to a significant cut in central government funding ( not pension contributions or translation fees or anything else). That's all I was trying to say.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:55 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:It's essential though because we can't be taxing the rich at appropriate rates because that would be too progressive.

Like many progressives I'm also in favour of flat rate taxation but at present we cannot afford to give the wealthiest a tax break. Even if you think it's "too progressive" I disagree; it's what we should be aiming for.

We should also continue the policy of the coalition government to bring the lowest paid out of taxation by lifting the base rate at which income tax is levied. This has contributed brilliantly to the ongoing jobs boom the UK is experiencing.

It's also great that these progressive tax measures (which Theresa May and Philip Hammond are worrying not so keen on) have resulted in the richest in society paying a greater share of the tax revenue than ever before. The top 1% now currently pay for 28% of all government income - that's brilliant.

And fantastic to see such great scepticism on the subject of tax increases here on UTC - it's heartening to know that not every keyboard warrior out there is an unworldly economic Marxist.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:06 am

Rowls wrote:Like many progressives I'm also in favour of flat rate taxation...

And that's where your post should have ended because clearly you're talking ******* bullshit, as always.

JimMcDonald · Post by **JimMcDonald** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:20 am

We're Barnes and Wood ! (Woody and Barnesy) and best of all we dont pay council tax !!

JimMcDonald · Post by **JimMcDonald** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:21 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:And that's where your post should have ended because clearly you're talking ******* bullshit, as always.

Hes on narcotics. I agree IT he talks Bullcrap.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:31 am

Too much Ayn Rand.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:34 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:And that's where your post should have ended because clearly you're talking ******* bullshit, as always.

As a progressive I'm going to ignore your swearing and insults.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:34 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Too much Ayn Rand.

Never read any.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:36 am

And to finish, I'm going to reiterate that I am GLAD the wealthiest pay the largest amount (in percentage terms AND in real terms) they have ever paid.

Long may the government keep raising the basic threshold for income tax and long may a healthy scepticism of tax rises continue - on here and in the rest of the UK.

All the best, good night and God bless. x x x

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:28 am

Paul Waine wrote:Without knowing the rules of any particular scheme, my expectation is that the lower paid staff pay in a smaller amount and the higher paid staff pay in more than 6.4%. Am I right on this?

It is a basic 6.4% for everyone. Of course, that means you pay less the lower your salary but it also means you get less pension at the end of it. Working for local government or, indeed, any other government body such as the NHS often means you get below the going rate salary compared to people of equal responsibility in the real world. The pension scheme was one of the perks for accepting that lower income. These schemes have been reducing in their final value over the years. Certainly the NHS pension scheme I paid into mainly throughout the 1980s and 1990s is much more generous than those paying into the current NHS scheme (not that I am complaining thank you very much

)

However the 6.4% contribution does mean you 'contract out' of the state pension scheme meaning you a lower state pension when you reach retirement age. You do not pay tax on the 6.4% and also pay a lower NI rate on your income.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:36 am

bfcmik wrote:It is a basic 6.4% for everyone. Of course, that means you pay less the lower your salary but it also means you get less pension at the end of it. Working for local government or, indeed, any other government body such as the NHS often means you get below the going rate salary compared to people of equal responsibility in the real world. The pension scheme was one of the perks for accepting that lower income. These schemes have been reducing in their final value over the years. Certainly the NHS pension scheme I paid into mainly throughout the 1980s and 1990s is much more generous than those paying into the current NHS scheme (not that I am complaining thank you very much )

However the 6.4% contribution does mean you 'contract out' of the state pension scheme meaning you a lower state pension when you reach retirement age. You do not pay tax on the 6.4% and also pay a lower NI rate on your income.

It's not 6.4% for everyone.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:45 am

Rowls wrote:As a progressive I'm going to ignore your swearing and insults.

If you think me calling your ideas bullshit is an insult then you are far too emotionally attached to your ideas.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:59 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:If you think me calling your ideas bullshit is an insult then you are far too emotionally attached to your ideas.

Oh dear.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:10 am

bfcmik wrote: Working for local government or, indeed, any other government body such as the NHS often means you get below the going rate salary compared to people of equal responsibility in the real world. The pension scheme was one of the perks for accepting that lower income.

This may have been the case 25 years ago, but not today .....

“On average public sector employees have over three days more absence each year than their private sector counterparts” CIPD Absence management survey report 2016. This is because of the generous sickness policies in the public sector, ( and privatised former public sector ), compared to the private sector.

1968claret · Post by **1968claret** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:10 am

Clarets4me wrote: This is because of the generous sickness policies in the public sector, ( and privatised former public sector ), compared to the private sector.

Or maybe it’s because the working conditions are so horrendously stressful. Try working in an a and e department or on a cancer ward, with far fewer staff than are needed. I don’t, but I know people who do.
If their pension is gold plated (they aren’t as good as the daily mail would have you believe) then good on em. I don’t begrudge them a penny. They will have earned a decent retirement.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:14 am

Transpennine wrote:Don't blame the council. They've essential services to provide. Give Hammond and May a bell...

Makes a change that it isn’t Clarkson to blame

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:28 am

Clarets4me wrote:This may have been the case 25 years ago, but not today .....

“On average public sector employees have over three days more absence each year than their private sector counterparts” CIPD Absence management survey report 2016. This is because of the generous sickness policies in the public sector, ( and privatised former public sector ), compared to the private sector.

That point doesn't particularly relate to the post you quoted - that was specifically about salary levels.

But in terms of sickness, as suggested above, it's hardly surprising sickness levels are higher in the public sector.

For example, hospital staff working in urgent care under unrelenting pressure; child protection social workers under emotional strain; paramedics, prison officers, police officers assaulted.

I could go on. And as an aside none of these professionals are handsomely paid.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:43 am

This government raised the tax threshold as from April to a great fanfare claiming that they were putting money back in people's pockets to spend as they wish. Most people will be better off by about £10 a month. Cover the Council Tax increase?

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:54 am

Plus we have to pay £30 to get our garden waste bin emptied.
On top of your £2000 for band D.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:03 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Plus we have to pay £30 to get our garden waste bin emptied.
On top of your £2000 for band D.

Its been £50/year for garden waste for many years where I am. Saves trips to the tip myself, so no probs for me.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:30 pm

Well it was free up until last year, when the made us pay

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:52 pm

"It was free" is not the same as "it didn't cost anything".

That's the problem with "free" things - very few people appreciate the cost of these things.