Religion wins again

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Lancasterclaret
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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:19 am

Absolutely 100% schools have to teach kids that being LGBT is perfectly fine.

Remember kids turn into adults, and we all know how bigoted adults can be.

ClaretMoffitt
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Re: Religion wins again

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:33 am

How do you get liberals to support homophobia?

Get Muslims to do it.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:40 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:How do you get liberals to support homophobia?

Get Muslims to do it.

Well the replies from some would be very different had it been white parents objecting to muslim teachings

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:58 am

Inchy wrote:I am more offended schools teach about religion that homosexual.

They don’t teach kids about the tooth fairy so why educate about other make believe characters
Religion is a thing. It’s real, and for good or bad religion shapes events and human interactions around us. Teaching religion doesn’t affirm the existence of a deity, but understanding of other people.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:13 am

AndrewJB wrote:Religion is a thing. It’s real, and for good or bad religion shapes events and human interactions around us. Teaching religion doesn’t affirm the existence of a deity, but understanding of other people.
Religion doesn't encourage the understanding of all people though, it does encourage discrimination of some People.
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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:24 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:The Birmingham schools who were teaching their pupils that being Gay/Lesbian was ok in our society have had to withdraw the lessons as Muslim parents protested.
Saying it's not acceptable in their religion.

Time to end religion in this country, it's like living 200 yrs ago.
Never mind all the tax breaks the church and mosques get.
Children should be taught about BGLT in the home, not in primary school.
Discus it in secondary schools by all means, but don't force feed kids anything but the basic 3 Rs. They have enough on their plates, and as others have said, should be allowed to be kids not treated like young adults.
Not teaching religion in school is bit different. I think it should be as faith is an issue for all ages. You dont start attending church when you come of age, but how its taught is difficult. Religious run schools will always place the emphasis on their own religions, that's fine, but they should give students the facts about all religions.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:33 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Religion doesn't encourage the understanding of all people though, it does encourage discrimination of some People.
I’m fairly sure that RE explores discrimination within religion in secondary school. RE doesn’t promote religion over “no religion” (currently about 20% of the U.K. population identifies as this) any more than studying relationships promotes any one particular type of relationship over others. Critical thinking is encouraged in RE - so were you to stand in front of a class with your post on the board behind you, you’d likely get it pulled apart by students.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:37 am

No point in teaching it at reception age, but by years 4,5 and 6?

Most definitely.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Eyres_11 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:07 am

AndrewJB wrote:Religion is a thing. It’s real, and for good or bad religion shapes events and human interactions around us. Teaching religion doesn’t affirm the existence of a deity, but understanding of other people.
Religion isn't real at all.
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Re: Religion wins again

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:23 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:No point in teaching it at reception age, but by years 4,5 and 6?

Most definitely.
I think it should start from the earliest age possible, and the reason for this is they will already be exposed to bigotry by an early age, so no point in allowing that to take root unopposed. A child might not know when they're five, six, or seven years old that they are gay, or trans, but the bigotry they experience against gay or trans people early on (especially if that is not countered) could impede their ability to come to terms with who they are later on. Likewise students who will grow up to be straight. If we just let them get to Y4 or Y5 thinking that gay or trans people are immoral, bad, or wrong (even if they don't really understand what gay or trans people are), then it will be much harder for a teacher to teach respect for gay or trans people. We don't wait until Y4 to teach students about disabled people, and we should do the same for sexual and gender differences.
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Re: Religion wins again

Post by willsclarets » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:27 am

I totally agree with the above. Why do you need RE to do it?

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Blackrod » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:52 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:No point in teaching it at reception age, but by years 4,5 and 6?

Most definitely.
Ridiculous.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Blackrod » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:58 am

Religion plays a huge part in the world we live in. To not teach it in schools means people could grow up being ignorant of other faiths and beliefs. That is not a good thing. Schools now teach about different religions and beliefs which is welcome. The poster above who likens religion to believing in a tooth fairy displays such ignorance. Aside from this there is far too much pandering to PC nonsense nowadays in both schools and the workplace.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:20 pm

My kids are 10 and 11 Blackrod.

I have to correct them when they sound like bigoted old men about this.

It needs teaching at that age, at home and in school. And as you cannot guarantee that its taught at home, then it has to be schools.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Blackrod » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:41 pm

Mine are the younger ages and I want them to learn about basic things such as maths English history and geography etc and above all to have fun playing games, football or with dolls houses etc. They have no need to be learning about sexual relationships of any sort at that age. IMO it is plain wrong.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Lord Beamish » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:47 pm

They walk amongst us.....

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:48 pm

But we are not talking about making it a subject Blackrod!

An afternoon a term in which the differences are explained and that its all perfectly normal.

More than likely someone (or more than one) at both our kids schools will be LGBT, and anything that helps them and their class mates is a good thing no?

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by TVC15 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:59 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I think it should start from the earliest age possible, and the reason for this is they will already be exposed to bigotry by an early age, so no point in allowing that to take root unopposed. A child might not know when they're five, six, or seven years old that they are gay, or trans, but the bigotry they experience against gay or trans people early on (especially if that is not countered) could impede their ability to come to terms with who they are later on. Likewise students who will grow up to be straight. If we just let them get to Y4 or Y5 thinking that gay or trans people are immoral, bad, or wrong (even if they don't really understand what gay or trans people are), then it will be much harder for a teacher to teach respect for gay or trans people. We don't wait until Y4 to teach students about disabled people, and we should do the same for sexual and gender differences.
Disagree completely.
I’m all for better education and believe that schools do have a role - as of course do parents (though the latter can have negative impact given the ignorance and prejudice that may exist).
Starting to educate 7 and 8 year olds of this is not necessary. There is no need for them to think that being “gay is immoral by the time they get to year 4” as you have quoted above - why would they have formulated a view on this by such an early age....or much of a view on anything actually - other than the stuff that kids love doing at this age.
Educate them and build this into the curriculum somehow when they start their teens and they are mature enough to ask questions / hold a considered opinion.
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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:03 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Religion doesn't encourage the understanding of all people though, it does encourage discrimination of some People.
As someone who went to a Catholic Primary School, then a Grammar School, and was taught RE in both, I was never encouraged to discriminate against anybody.
It's not the lessons that is wrong, just some of the teachers. As has been shown by some of the radical Preachers of Islam. They are still a minority, not the norm.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:22 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:As someone who went to a Catholic Primary School, then a Grammar School, and was taught RE in both, I was never encouraged to discriminate against anybody.
It's not the lessons that is wrong, just some of the teachers. As has been shown by some of the radical Preachers of Islam. They are still a minority, not the norm.
Yet the parts of the religions against homosexuality wasn't pointed out for what it is?

That's the point I'm making, we are taught about religions, but not where they're wrong about modern life

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:41 pm

Blackrod wrote:Religion plays a huge part in the world we live in. To not teach it in schools means people could grow up being ignorant of other faiths and beliefs. That is not a good thing. Schools now teach about different religions and beliefs which is welcome. The poster above who likens religion to believing in a tooth fairy displays such ignorance. Aside from this there is far too much pandering to PC nonsense nowadays in both schools and the workplace.
No one is saying to not teach about religion.

The issue which you're clearly not seeing is the discrimination and treatment of gay people due to religious teachings over thousands of years.

We should ensure our children are fully informed about all types of people and relationships.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by CoolClaret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:41 pm

How about we teach kids ethics instead? With a tiny bit of philosophy thrown in as well.

Have them thinking, formulating and questioning instead of just blindky accepting..(or at least having to accept)

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:55 pm

Teach them whatever is needed to stop, or reduce, the hatred in this world of people who are different to them.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:59 pm

TVC15 wrote:Disagree completely.
I’m all for better education and believe that schools do have a role - as of course do parents (though the latter can have negative impact given the ignorance and prejudice that may exist).
Starting to educate 7 and 8 year olds of this is not necessary. There is no need for them to think that being “gay is immoral by the time they get to year 4” as you have quoted above - why would they have formulated a view on this by such an early age....or much of a view on anything actually - other than the stuff that kids love doing at this age.
Educate them and build this into the curriculum somehow when they start their teens and they are mature enough to ask questions / hold a considered opinion.
I've pointed out earlier that education on this in early years is all age-appropriate. It's little more than acknowledging there are many kinds of family groups, and relationships that people form, and this goes beyond single sex parents to encompass single parent families, or children brought up by their grandparents. Some older children are themselves carers for a disabled parent. It reflects the reality of modern day life. I can't see what could be objectionable about this.

Schools should be fighting all kinds of prejudice and bigotry. Can you imagine if racism, disabilities, family bereavement, and religious sectarianism were all just left undiscussed until children were at "an appropriate age" or mature enough to ask questions and hold a considered opinion? All sorts of closed minded opinions might be allowed to develop, and certainly children whose lives are touched by disability, or family bereavement (for example), might find themselves alone and bullied by peers.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:01 pm

ontario claret wrote:You don't find the discussion over the name "Misra" to be, how can I say it, odious and only designed to make me rise to the bait and "touch a nerve"? You interpret it the way you want, and I congratulate you on your successful fishing expedition.
Bloody hell man, I only pointed out that Misra didn't sound like a Muslim name. No idea where the bait was or why it clearly has hit such a nerve. Sorry if you don't like people pointing out when you're wrong, there was no malice in my observation and I'm sure if you read it back you will see that.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by TVC15 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:06 pm

And I am saying that I do not believe that this prejudice that you refer to is enough of an issue for 7 or 8 year olds to start to educate them about it - other than the generic “everybody is different” type teaching.
Of course there will be exceptions to this and if anyone of that age does display any kind of prejudice or bullying then that can be treated individually.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by WadingInDeeper » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:13 pm

From my experience the recent teaching was more along the lines of religion (not to be confused with faith) and ethics, with an emphasis on considering how other religions or people would react or view a subject.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Blackrod » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:31 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:No one is saying to not teach about religion.

The issue which you're clearly not seeing is the discrimination and treatment of gay people due to religious teachings over thousands of years.

We should ensure our children are fully informed about all types of people and relationships.
Post 98.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:59 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Yet the parts of the religions against homosexuality wasn't pointed out for what it is?

That's the point I'm making, we are taught about religions, but not where they're wrong about modern life
I don't think we are, not RE in primary school.
It's all away in a manger, and Calgary.

The deeper philosophical side of religion, which includes Homosexuality, can be left until students are older, and more aware of what the subject is. I know there are still bigots out there who want to burn them at the stake, but I have faith in God. It doesn't conflict with my belief that a persons sexuality is up to them. I think that you'll find Christianity has come a long way in 2000 years.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by willsclarets » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:10 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:I don't think we are, not RE in primary school.
It's all away in a manger, and Calgary.

The deeper philosophical side of religion, which includes Homosexuality, can be left until students are older, and more aware of what the subject is. I know there are still bigots out there who want to burn them at the stake, but I have faith in God. It doesn't conflict with my belief that a persons sexuality is up to them. I think that you'll find Christianity has come a long way in 2000 years.

Monotheistic religion by its very nature can only progress so far because it was written so long ago. The text hasn't gone anywhere, it's just twisted and cherry picked to fit modern thinking and society. The closer you get to being a devout follower of a particular religion and the ideas in it, the closer you get to abhorrent ideas. Faith in a God without faith in it's teachings makes you a deist.
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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:46 pm

willsclarets wrote:Monotheistic religion by its very nature can only progress so far because it was written so long ago. The text hasn't gone anywhere, it's just twisted and cherry picked to fit modern thinking and society. The closer you get to being a devout follower of a particular religion and the ideas in it, the closer you get to abhorrent ideas. Faith in a God without faith in it's teachings makes you a deist.
That may be why I believe in God, but don't go to church. Too many hypocrites in attendance. I feel closer to God having a walk through the Dales on a Sunday morning than I do in a church.
The fire and brimstone, table thumping preachers, have always seemed at odds with the message. The biggest message should be forgiveness. We all make mistakes in life, we wouldn't throw our children out because they made mistakes, just as my parents didn't throw me out after my many.......many mistakes. The idea that God is a vengeful being goes against everything that I believe.
I don't believe that God would anymore turn his back on a homosexual, than he would on anyone else. In my house are many rooms can be interpreted many ways.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:49 pm

That's why the man made religion should be disregarded, due to the varying ways it's interpreted and used to subdue mankind.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Lord Beamish » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:53 pm

The way I have been touched by the noodley appendage of the Flying Spaghetti Monster has enriched my life...
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Re: Religion wins again

Post by ontario claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:50 pm

At least in North America there's a general acknowledgement that people have a right to worship according to their own personal beliefs. You lot seem to be hell bent on trying to convince the other half that they are wrong, and will never lay down until they win their position. Look at IT. He spends half his life, it seems, trying to arouse the other ones on this forum who take the opposite tact. It's like one of the original episodes of Star Trek. Two versions of the same thing locked in eternal mortal combat. Can't we acknowledge that we're all different?

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by ontario claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:52 pm

"Subdue mankind". Are you for real?

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:56 pm

ontario claret wrote:"Subdue mankind". Are you for real?
Yup

Religion uses the carrot and stick approach to subdue and control.

Carrot - Heaven for good behaviour.
Stick - Hell if you're naughty.

Despite neither place being proven to exist, nor the god itself, people still believe they'll end up in one place or the other after centuries of brain washing by various religious institutions.

That's all religion ever does, every single one of them.

Displease a god and you'll be punished :roll:

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by ontario claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:05 pm

For your information, very few sects preach about a literal Hell any longer. Where would it exist? Besides, if they found that much sulphur, they would exploit it for commercial purposes. Try attending just one service to see what goes on before you condemn it. Oh, ya. People like you just condemn, never suggest more positive alternatives. Haters only hate. (And there are haters on both sides of this argument.)

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by ontario claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:06 pm

Have you ever heard of "String Theory"? Eleven dimensions, three of whom are time. Lots of space and time for all kinds of things to exist that we can't see or know.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by ontario claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:08 pm

And you're not punished. But you're definitely rewarded if you pray for forgiveness.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:08 pm

I've been to church more than enough thanks.

Heaven and hell is still used.

I'll condemn it because religion is nothing more than a tool to control people.

The Catholic church needs closing down because it's more concerned about protecting child abusers than it is about handing them over to police for justice.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by ontario claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:10 pm

The Big Bang Theory. What caused a non-existent universe to suddenly explode and send all sorts of matter into all corners of the detectable sphere?

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by ontario claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:14 pm

Actually, they control nobody. My church encourages people to explore their own forms of faith. Like my pastor said, "We all have our own versions of reality to get where we are." He was born to an alcoholic father, and is one of the coolest people I've ever known. Perhaps you've been to a "false church". There's more than enough of those around.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by ontario claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:15 pm

And I'm not a Catholic. I'm a disciple of Martin Luther.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by ontario claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:18 pm

My pastor stands in front of his congregation wearing only a blazer. And his only tool is the good book, and his own life experiences.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:20 pm

ontario claret wrote:My pastor stands in front of his congregation wearing only a blazer. And his only tool is the good book, and his own life experiences.
Must be pretty draughty.
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Re: Religion wins again

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:21 pm

ontario claret wrote:The Big Bang Theory. What caused a non-existent universe to suddenly explode and send all sorts of matter into all corners of the detectable sphere?
Ah now I'm having regular conversations with a Muslim woman at my weekend job about religion, it's been quite good actually and she asked me this same question.

I don't know what caused it, but I'm willing to wait for science to explain it at some point.
Nothing has yet convinced me that one of the 3k god's worshipped by the human race created the universe.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:21 pm

ontario claret wrote:And you're not punished. But you're definitely rewarded if you pray for forgiveness.
Definitely?

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:23 pm

ontario claret wrote:Actually, they control nobody. My church encourages people to explore their own forms of faith. Like my pastor said, "We all have our own versions of reality to get where we are." He was born to an alcoholic father, and is one of the coolest people I've ever known. Perhaps you've been to a "false church". There's more than enough of those around.
I live in the UK, I've been to both Catholic and Anglican.

I've yet to visit a mosque, but having a Muslim sister probably means I may well do at some point.

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Re: Religion wins again

Post by ontario claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:25 pm

Oh, Rileybobs, you finally acknowledge that you're not an expert on Muslim names. Neither am I. But I'm 99.9% sure that Misra is Muslim.

GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Religion wins again

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:26 pm

ontario claret wrote:Oh, Rileybobs, you finally acknowledge that you're not an expert on Muslim names. Neither am I. But I'm 99.9% sure that Misra is Muslim.
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Screenshot_20190327-222602.png (206.18 KiB) Viewed 790 times
I'm no expert so I used Google.
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