Religion wins again

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ontario claret
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:28 pm

Try a Baptist or Methodist congregation. Catholic and Anglican are really the same thing, only different robes. Try to get away from the "splendour of God" thing, and more to the reality contained in the Bible.

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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:30 pm

ontario claret wrote:Try a Baptist or Methodist congregation. Catholic and Anglican are really the same thing, only different robes. Try to get away from the "splendour of God" thing, and more to the reality contained in the Bible.


So you want me to visit different branches of the same religion in the hope I'll suddenly 'find god' ?

I might as well visit a mosque or synagogue then, because they're also places of worship for the same god you believe in....

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:08 pm

You want to go Muslim, fine with me. It's what you find truly in your heart that matters. Kind of like following Burnley FC.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:09 pm

If you do go Muslim, watch out for the flying donkeys.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:10 pm

You want to go Muslim, fine with me. It's what you find truly in your heart that matters. Kind of like following Burnley FC.

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Greenmile
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:13 pm

ontario claret wrote:For your information, very few sects preach about a literal Hell any longer. Where would it exist? Besides, if they found that much sulphur, they would exploit it for commercial purposes. Try attending just one service to see what goes on before you condemn it. Oh, ya. People like you just condemn, never suggest more positive alternatives. Haters only hate. (And there are haters on both sides of this argument.)


Here’s a more positive alternative.

Atheism

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:18 pm

Different congregation leaders, whatever they may be called, have different abilities and approaches. Right now I'm attending a Free Methodist church. But the pastor's kind of a hippy, dippy guy. He'll tell you himself that he's not all that smart. And he tends to wear strange things, like Winnie the Pooh sweaters. He sits in the middle of the congregation, and only stands up to deliver his sermon. One of his sermons at Christmas was about the owner of the stable where Jesus was born. This person is not even in the Bible, but we know he must have existed. Maybe he was just trying to stretch his boundaries.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:19 pm

There's very little positive in atheism. I know. I've been there.
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:27 pm

ontario claret wrote:There's very little positive in atheism. I know. I've been there.


And I’ve been religious. I know which is better, and it’s not the one where you rely on an imaginary all powerful being that takes a weird interest in folks’ sex-life in order to bring meaning to your life.

Atheism tells us we only get one go at life so you’d best make the most of it. Religion relegates life to a tiny blip (or several if you’re into reincarnation) amidst an eternity in heaven / hell / limbo / Valhalla (delete as applicable).

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:38 pm

ontario claret wrote:You want to go Muslim, fine with me. It's what you find truly in your heart that matters. Kind of like following Burnley FC.


I'm not going with any religion
I realised when I was a young kid that it was utter toss.

Atheism is the way forward, if I don't like someone it's purely because I don't like them, not because some book from the desert decides I shouldn't like them.
I don't need to donate money to a mass child abusing cult either, which is always good to avoid doing.

I also know how to deal with my own issues instead of hoping someone in the sky can do it for me.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:41 pm

ontario claret wrote:There's very little positive in atheism. I know. I've been there.


What's not to like about atheism?

I can sleep with whoever and whenever I like.
I get Sundays to myself.
I get extra days off in the year because as a country we honour Christian holidays.
I don't have to listen to some boring religious person whilst sat on an uncomfortable bench.
I don't need to pray.
I've no fear of going to hell, or meeting the devil.
Plus can you imagine how boring heaven will be if all the fun people are down in hell?

There's more but I'm sure you get the gist.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby tim_noone » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:48 pm

"I can sleep with whoever and whenever I like " great stuff! Mongrel :roll:

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:49 pm

I can, there's no god to smite me down for my sins.

Not really a mongrel though.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:02 pm

Religion takes many forms. Buddhists have prayer wheels. Shintos worship their ancestors. Animalists think that the rain forests are inhabited by various spirits. Whatever works for you. Just don't deny anybody's right to worship, as long as it's non-pervasive.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby willsclarets » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:03 pm

If religion brings Ontario comfort, peace and happiness, then all the power to him. I have no problem with it whatsoever.

But I do care when things are asserted via a so called holy book that supposedly answer some of the biggest questions, philosophically, we face as human beings and a society. There are many instances I could pick out, but your claim Ontario, that hell is not taught in most sects anymore is perfect. Why not? It's in the Bible, is it not? Heaven and hell is a binary opposition, either you qualify or you don't. I applaud the idea that kids aren't taught that being bad means they burn in an eternal fire, but it doesn't mean you believe everyone goes to heaven does it? Do you not start seeing a problem with a religion that has to bend to meet social expectations born of an evolving morality that is supercedes it?

Where do you nail your flag to the mast? Is it more important that every word of God in the Bible is true, or not. Where's the line between believing there's a higher power and being a Christian?
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:04 pm

And nobody solved my parable. Maybe that's a good thing for this forum.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:10 pm

ontario claret wrote:...Whatever works for you. Just don't deny anybody's right to worship, as long as it's non-pervasive.


Nobody is doing that. You can believe whatever weird **** you want. Just don’t expect me to give your beliefs any moe respect than id give to someone who believes in Zeus, Santa, or Captain America.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:12 pm

There are typos in the Bible. Why not? It was written by human beings. The apostle Paul actively persecuted Christians before having his epiphany. We're all sinners. The key is to ask for forgiveness, in whatever form you choose. Only Catholics and Anglicans believe in the absolute truth of a Pope or an Archbishop of Westminster. I'm only a lowly follower, looking for the right way. I found it, but I had to let it go. Such is life. But it's ended up teaching me so much.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:15 pm

Did I ask for special understanding, Greenmile? My numbers are much less than yours. And we all follow our own paths. Some day,you might wake up in the middle of the night, like I did, and know the truth. I only hope so for your sake.
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby willsclarets » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:21 pm

You seem like a nice fella, and I'm glad religion works for you. But you didn't begin to answer my question and stop claiming truth where you can't possibly begin to do so

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:22 pm

And willsclaret, what the Bible says is that non-believers are consigned to non-existence, while believers are taken to a better place, without the pains that affect everyday life. All I know is that in the last 9 years I've never been subjected to a sermon on the nature of Hell. End days, many times. Hell, no.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:22 pm

The only reason I wake in the night is for the loo.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:25 pm

You're right. Because nobody's gone and come back. No, actually 3 have in the Bible. So, I guess there are 2 of them there. There ARE supposed contradictions. But it still doesn't neglate the feelings I hold in my heart.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:25 pm

ontario claret wrote:Did I ask for special understanding, Greenmile? My numbers are much less than yours. And we all follow our own paths. Some day,you might wake up in the middle of the night, like I did, and know the truth. I only hope so for your sake.


Or you might apply a bit of logic and realise that all gods are equally man-made. Just a primitive way of understanding previously unknowable natural phenomena (and, subsequently, to exert control over the unwashed masses) which science is helping the human race outgrow the need for, thankfully.

Are you saying that if I believe in Odin or Batman that my faith would be just as valid as yours, or are you, in fact, asking for special understanding?

What happens if I don’t learn “the truth”anyway, given that you don’t believe in Hell? What will happen to my eternal soul if I die a non-believer, or if I end up believing in the wrong god by mistake?

Edit - just seen you’ve answered my last question. I’ll happily take non-existence over an eternity of anything, even paradise.
Last edited by Greenmile on Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:28 pm

And what was the question again?

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby willsclarets » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:32 pm

You're clearly not willing to take on the factual inconsistencies morbidly apparent in religious texts, and I get it. You go to church and they pick out the nice bits, you feel it empowers you as a person and there's a huge sense of community in it.
Just stop stepping on the toes of science and we can be friends.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:32 pm

Greenmile, there are many schools of theology where many deep questions are asked. I have yet to know of a School of Batman, although I'm beginning to suspect that you are a large consumer of said material. If you believe Hogwart's actually existed, let me know when you find it.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:34 pm

You say "religion". That's a big blanket. I'm a Christian and shall remain so.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby willsclarets » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:37 pm

One day you'll wake up in the middle of the night and realise you're a speck of star dust in an insignificant and tiny corner of our solar system in an inconceivably huge universe that's rapidly expanding :)

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby willsclarets » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:38 pm

...which I actually find rather poetic and beautiful

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:42 pm

ontario claret wrote:And willsclaret, what the Bible says is that non-believers are consigned to non-existence, while believers are taken to a better place, without the pains that affect everyday life..


That’s not what it says in the Bible I read. I’m pretty sure Jesus had loads to say about hell (eg “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?”)

Are you calling Jesus a liar? I’d be careful if I were you - that’s the sort of thing that could see you consigned to hell.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby willsclarets » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:44 pm

Don't bother greenmile, he's not going to engage with it

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:46 pm

ontario claret wrote:Greenmile, there are many schools of theology where many deep questions are asked. I have yet to know of a School of Batman, although I'm beginning to suspect that you are a large consumer of said material. If you believe Hogwart's actually existed, let me know when you find it.


Sounds like you’re asking for special understanding. What makes your god any more real than Batman?

I’ve never read or seen Harry Potter, but I presume you’ll let me know where I can find the Christian heaven (or hell). Is it near Olympus or Valhalla?

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:01 pm

I'd be more inclined to believe in Potter tbh, same with Thor because he's pretty cool.

Not so much Antman though.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:13 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I'd be more inclined to believe in Potter tbh, same with Thor because he's pretty cool.

Not so much Antman though.


Antman is miles cooler than Thor. Don’t make me declare a crusade against you for your heathen anti-Antman blasphemy.
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Claretmatt4 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:15 pm

Imagine being a good person because you just think it's the right thing to do morally instead of because you'll get some eternal, ethereal reward.

Imagine that
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby CoolClaret » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:18 pm

Greenmile wrote:

Atheism tells us we only get one go at life so you’d best make the most of it. Religion relegates life to a tiny blip (or several if you’re into reincarnation) amidst an eternity in heaven / hell / limbo / Valhalla (delete as applicable).


In theory; however I fear for an onset of nihilism in a truly aethistic society.

There definitely appears to be a greater rate of suicide in countries that are less religious than those that aren't.

I believe that if something gives someone a purpose and a sense of values - no matter how farfetched that may be as long as it doesn't use another being as a means to an end then heck, I'm all for it.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:26 pm

Greenmile wrote:Antman is miles cooler than Thor. Don’t make me declare a crusade against you for your heathen anti-Antman blasphemy.


Fk off, it's the god of thunder.....

That's kin cool!!!

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Falcon » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:32 pm

Don't know why people think kids learning about gay relationships in school will turn them gay. I learned about World War Two, but am yet to invade Poland.
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:12 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Fk off, it's the god of thunder.....

That's kin cool!!!


He's just a nature god - basically a hippy with a hammer. Antman is a proper scientist - he created Ultron.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:14 pm

CoolClaret wrote:In theory; however I fear for an onset of nihilism in a truly aethistic society.

There definitely appears to be a greater rate of suicide in countries that are less religious than those that aren't.

I believe that if something gives someone a purpose and a sense of values - no matter how farfetched that may be as long as it doesn't use another being as a means to an end then heck, I'm all for it.


I suspect that's because many (most?) mainstream religions see suicide as a guaranteed one-way ticket to hell (or its equivalent), rather than religion making folk happier per se.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Corky » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:27 pm

Ontario Claret said this; made me giggle, "Try to get away from the "splendour of God" thing, and more to the reality contained in the Bible". Reality, really. Bertrand Russell was so so right.
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby CoolClaret » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:30 pm

Greenmile wrote:I suspect that's because many (most?) mainstream religions see suicide as a guaranteed one-way ticket to hell (or its equivalent), rather than religion making folk happier per se.


Yeah I agree with you in that regard - I always think that the 'suicide the greatest sin' idea was like the single greatest form of control for peasants that literally lived in squalor.

However if people get meaning in their lives and the want to live virtuous due to scripture then fair enough imo.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby elwaclaret » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:49 pm

One thing I don't understand is the need for Aethists to attack believers. It makes no sense, faith or choice of belief is a personal choice, one of the most fundamental of human rights and yet otherwise reasonable and sensible adults are so passionate and driven about slagging of others for believing something they don't... I'm glad I'm not their kids a Christmas.

Believe what you want and your God go with you

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:56 pm

elwaclaret wrote:One thing I don't understand is the need for Aethists to attack believers. It makes no sense, faith or choice of belief is a personal choice, one of the most fundamental of human rights and yet otherwise reasonable and sensible adults are so passionate and driven about slagging of others for believing something they don't... I'm glad I'm not their kids a Christmas.

Believe what you want and your God go with you


Hey, we don't understand why god botherers keep feeling the need to knock on our doors to convert us, or to try and set foot on restricted islands, or in the past use the sword to convert...
We get slagged off for leaving a life free from trying to please some god in the sky, yet it's an issue when we rail against religion

As for Xmas, I'll happily take the day off, but I'd also work it if needed but it's not my turn too yet.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:28 pm

elwaclaret wrote:One thing I don't understand is the need for Aethists to attack believers. It makes no sense, faith or choice of belief is a personal choice, one of the most fundamental of human rights and yet otherwise reasonable and sensible adults are so passionate and driven about slagging of others for believing something they don't... I'm glad I'm not their kids a Christmas.

Believe what you want and your God go with you


Absolutely - believe what you want, but no beliefs should be off-limits to criticism or ridicule.

It’s not the believers we’re attacking, just the beliefs (you know, like “hate the sin, love the sinner”).

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Erasmus » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:22 pm

Greenmile, why do you feel the need to attack the beliefs?

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby elwaclaret » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:23 pm

Greenmile wrote:Absolutely - believe what you want, but no beliefs should be off-limits to criticism or ridicule.

It’s not the believers we’re attacking, just the beliefs (you know, like “hate the sin, love the sinner”).


I find the very act of turning to God for help often gives me a seconds rest bight to see alternatives or a solution. I don't care if He's 'real' or in my mind I'm glad he's there.

Some chose to believe in that saying more than you could imagine... practicing Catholic Priests who have done nothing but try to serve their God and their communities, tarred with the same brush as evil manipulators who used the very Goodness of the institution to ply pure evil on the innocent and vulnerable.

Christian charity remains one of the single largest donators to human rights and welfare around the world, for Christians and none Christians alike.
Almost all social reform of the last two hundred years has been driven by one denomination of Christian or another at the steering wheel.

They love the calling, and practice it with true grace for the good of others... and they have to say "hate the sin love the sinner" because they a routinely vilified by those desperate to undermine their faith, or out of pure laziness; people unwilling to take people as you find them one at a time. If they have a God I'll try my best not to offend them, and hope they offer me the same courtesy

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby dsr » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:40 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Hey, we don't understand why god botherers keep feeling the need to knock on our doors to convert us, or to try and set foot on restricted islands, or in the past use the sword to convert...
We get slagged off for leaving a life free from trying to please some god in the sky, yet it's an issue when we rail against religion

As for Xmas, I'll happily take the day off, but I'd also work it if needed but it's not my turn too yet.

The point is that Christians believe that you are missing out on something important and want you to have it. They may annoy you, but rightly or wrongly they are doing what they think is best for you.

Evangelical atheists aren't trying to do their best for anyone. They're trying to annoy people and they are looking to take faith away from someone who is comfortable with faith. Christians are trying to make people happy; militant atheists are trying to make people miserable.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Dazzler » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:42 am

dsr wrote:Evangelical atheists aren't trying to do their best for anyone. They're trying to annoy people and they are looking to take faith away from someone who is comfortable with faith. Christians are trying to make people happy; militant atheists are trying to make people miserable.


God fearing people are annoyed of people who talk sense...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q46tjUQ ... ex=15&t=0s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBV3eqvQPJs


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