Religion wins again

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elwaclaret
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby elwaclaret » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:04 am

Dazzler wrote:God fearing people are annoyed of people who talk sense...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q46tjUQ ... ex=15&t=0s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBV3eqvQPJs


I try to live my life in a way not to have to live in fear of God, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha. etc. I'm happy that my moral compass could be a lot worse.

Many top scientists suggest memory being electricity lives on just in a different form... nothing goes it just changes state and many concede the soul going forward makes as much sense as any other theory we currently have as to what lifeforce becomes.

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Greenmile
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:25 am

dsr wrote:The point is that Christians believe that you are missing out on something important and want you to have it. They may annoy you, but rightly or wrongly they are doing what they think is best for you.

Evangelical atheists aren't trying to do their best for anyone. They're trying to annoy people and they are looking to take faith away from someone who is comfortable with faith. Christians are trying to make people happy; militant atheists are trying to make people miserable.


Your argument hinges on the idea that being religious makes one happy, which just isn’t (always) true. Ever heard of catholic guilt, for example?

Atheists who argue with religious people are trying to “show them the light” just as much as vice versa. It’s really quite liberating and exhilarating to realise that you and you alone are responsible for what you make of your life.
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Greenmile
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:27 am

elwaclaret wrote:I try to live my life in a way not to have to live in fear of God, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha. etc. I'm happy that my moral compass could be a lot worse.

Many top scientists suggest memory being electricity lives on just in a different form... nothing goes it just changes state and many concede the soul going forward makes as much sense as any other theory we currently have as to what lifeforce becomes.


Who exactly are these “many top scientists”? Do you have any links?

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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:29 am

dsr wrote:The point is that Christians believe that you are missing out on something important and want you to have it. They may annoy you, but rightly or wrongly they are doing what they think is best for you.

Evangelical atheists aren't trying to do their best for anyone. They're trying to annoy people and they are looking to take faith away from someone who is comfortable with faith. Christians are trying to make people happy; militant atheists are trying to make people miserable.


They believe I'm missing out on something so continue to harangue me in the hope I'll find some god?
Rightly or wrongly doesn't come into this, they just need to understand some of us don't fall for the crap from some old book with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Christians are trying to rope people into worshipping their false god....
I've been happy without a god for pretty much my whole life, why do I need one now when I'm nearly 40?
It wasn't a god that saved my dad's life recently, it was hardworking NHS staff and that's an absolute fact.

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Goodclaret
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Goodclaret » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:52 am

I think Claretmatt nails it for me. I believe in being a good, decent, hard working chap and I've brought my lads up in the same way. I do that without the need of feeling I will be rewarded when I leave this world. I do it just because being nice is, well, er, nice! Unfortunately, religious beliefs are saying I won't be going to the good place as I haven't accepted God (any of the 3,000) in to my life. Seems a tad unfair really. Fortunately, I am not worried as when I pass, I'll be nothing just as I was before I was born.

Anyway, I watched The Good Place on Netflix and there are ways of sneaking in even if you aren't a believer so I do have that to cling on to :D
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elwaclaret
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby elwaclaret » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:48 pm

Greenmile wrote:Who exactly are these “many top scientists”? Do you have any links?


If you remind me later in the week I'll try and dig them out , but if I'm starting researching it really should be for historical representation of cultural identity and media development and advancement as that helps my Degree. Needs to be in next week. Sorry... and why I will not be answering much on here over the weekend.

EDIT: But if How the Universe Works is still on catchup ... they dedicated an episode to it with quite a few explaining it better than I could (they are scientists).

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:35 pm

"hell" and "Hell" are 2 different places. The first is a generic term, while the second denotes a specific place. Did Jesus mean to capitalize "hell", or was He referring to a place that many human beings hold in their hearts? Only the individual can decide that, because the Bible was written by humans.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Imploding Turtle » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:59 pm

"hell" and "Hell" aren't even one place let alone two.
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Greenmile
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:01 pm

ontario claret wrote:"hell" and "Hell" are 2 different places. The first is a generic term, while the second denotes a specific place. Did Jesus mean to capitalize "hell", or was He referring to a place that many human beings hold in their hearts? Only the individual can decide that, because the Bible was written by humans.


Jesus didn’t speak English, so never said “hell” or “Hell”. I’d have thought you’d know this. Maybe you should look into your religion a bit further before making grand statements about “knowing the truth”.

The bible is supposed to be the word of god. If it was written by humans, it’s just the same as any other piece of fiction.

It seems to me that you just like how important your religion makes you feel. You’re god’s special creation in your mind, and that brings you comfort, especially when you can tell yourself that you have access to some universal “truth” that atheists will never know. That’s just human nature, I suppose.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Greenmile » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:07 pm

Erasmus wrote:Greenmile, why do you feel the need to attack the beliefs?


Because they are ridiculous. If someone told you they genuinely thought Zeus or Anubis were real, and that belief was affecting the way they lived their life (eg they were performing rituals in their honour or making decisions based on what they thought Zeus / Anubis might think), wouldn’t you at least try to bring them to their senses? I would, and I do.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby claret59 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:57 pm

Not all scientists are atheists. The last time a survey was done on this topic (that I am aware of, can't give a date but relatively recently,) the majority were not atheists. I realise that any such survey cannot be limited to just one question and there has to be many shades of opinion and how deeply they are held, family background etc.
But despite the illogicality of belief it somehow survives. Those nation states that have prided themselves on being totally secular have not managed to sustain it and to achieve it have had persecutions where untold millions were put to death for believing in something greater then the nation state.
Incidentally more people still go to Church on Sundays in the UK than go to football matches on a Saturday. Many of us do both but if I had to give one up I would not have to think twice about the choice ( but I guess I would still have a sneaky look at the football results!)

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:08 pm

Iceland aren't very religious are they?

Can't recall them having a massacre about it either.

As for the numbers of people attending, you just can't help some people behaving like sheep I suppose.

Despite the Christian/Catholic churches being littered with child abusers and their protectors people at still blindly giving money to the churches...

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby PutTheWheelieBinsOut » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:48 pm

Religion is winning in Brunei. :cry:

Brunei laws punishing LGBT people with whipping, stoning 'to be implemented next week'
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-26/ ... s/10938592

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ontario claret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:55 pm

Greenmile, it was you making direct quotations from the Bible, not me. A person doesn't need to know every word in order to be a believer. You're arguments are all based on your hatred of others who find solice in the good book. I just hope that you find some way to get the hatred out of your heart. In the meantime, I'm just satisfied with myself in my present form. Does that make me arrogant. I'll let others who are less pre-disposed to decide that. And did you know that BFC won 2-0 yesterday? That should make ALL Burnley fans a little more joyful in their hearts today.

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CoolClaret
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby CoolClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:00 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Iceland aren't very religious are they?

Can't recall them having a massacre about it either.

As for the numbers of people attending, you just can't help some people behaving like sheep I suppose.

Despite the Christian/Catholic churches being littered with child abusers and their protectors people at still blindly giving money to the churches...


Iceland also abort kids screened with down syndrome...

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:08 pm

ontario claret wrote:Greenmile, it was you making direct quotations from the Bible, not me. A person doesn't need to know every word in order to be a believer. You're arguments are all based on your hatred of others who find solice in the good book. I just hope that you find some way to get the hatred out of your heart. In the meantime, I'm just satisfied with myself in my present form. Does that make me arrogant. I'll let others who are less pre-disposed to decide that. And did you know that BFC won 2-0 yesterday? That should make ALL Burnley fans a little more joyful in their hearts today.


That's the issue isn't it, when believers don't actually know all the details of the religion they're following?

They'd surely be able to spot the gaping holes in it..

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:08 pm

CoolClaret wrote:Iceland also abort kids screened with down syndrome...


That isn't a religious issue

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Damo » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:24 pm

I went to a catholic school and grew up hating religion, and I couldn't wait to tell people how stupid and pointless it all is at every opportunity.
Not too long ago I ended up working with a bloke for about 6 weeks, and after a 5 minute rant by myself about it, he told me that he turned to christianity following the death of his child many years ago. He said the only way he could cope was to believe there is a heaven and he will meet his child there.
Religion isn't pointless to some people. I'm still an atheist but I try my best to keep it to myself now, and not pontificate about atheism
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby CoolClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:35 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:That isn't a religious issue


No its a question of ethics, and an aethistic society - Iceland deems it acceptable.

It wouldn't be permissable in any Christian country.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:42 pm

There's a big hole in that blokes logic, but if it's the only way he can cope with something that traumatic...

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Erasmus » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:45 pm

Greenmile, do you really believe that is the reason why you try to undermine people's beliefs? We all need to be a bit more self-aware, but do you really believe you are doing it out of sense of needing to help others?

A lot of the posts on here are not meant in a kindly way and I can't see how they are aiming at doing good for those who are religious; a lot of them are aimed at causing them upset.

You say religion is ridiculous, but in order to properly argue that case you have to understand religion in all its many forms. Christianity, for example, (and I am not a Christian) comes in many, many different forms but the only one you are trying to condemn is that which accepts the Bible as literal truth. That is not what Christianity is for many believers, so if you really want to help people I think it would be better to properly understand their beliefs, and above all adopt an attitude that is kindly rather than antagonistic.

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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:46 pm

CoolClaret wrote:No its a question of ethics, and an aethistic society - Iceland deems it acceptable.

It wouldn't be permissable in any Christian country.


Lots of things aren't, or haven't, been permissible in a Christian country.

The abortion thing should be the decision of the parents and no one else

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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:49 pm

Erasmus wrote:Greenmile, do you really believe that is the reason why you try to undermine people's beliefs? We all need to be a bit more self-aware, but do you really believe you are doing it out of sense of needing to help others?

A lot of the posts on here are not meant in a kindly way and I can't see how they are aiming at doing good for those who are religious; a lot of them are aimed at causing them upset.

You say religion is ridiculous, but in order to properly argue that case you have to understand religion in all its many forms. Christianity, for example, (and I am not a Christian) comes in many, many different forms but the only one you are trying to condemn is that which accepts the Bible as literal truth. That is not what Christianity is for many believers, so if you really want to help people I think it would be better to properly understand their beliefs, and above all adopt an attitude that is kindly rather than antagonistic.


I'll condemn every form of it, if that helps.

Believing that a god appeared and spoke to just a small number of people until round about 2k years ago is just daft.
Thinking it had a son on this planet who's body ascended to heaven is stark raving bonkers.

Yet when you see a tramp on the street saying they're talking to god nowadays they're dismissed as crazy....
What's the difference between now and 2-6k years ago?

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Erasmus » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:10 pm

Godisadeejay, I am not sure whether you are referring to all forms of Christianity or all forms of religion. In either case, the representation you say you are rejecting is a shallow parody of religion. That's why I feel that to so ardently condemn a phenomenon you need to understand it more fully.

Religion, be it Christian or otherwise, has so much greater subtlety, complexity and depth than the way you represent it. If you want your views to be taken more seriously and to carry more weight, you really do need a clearer idea of what it is you dislike.

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CoolClaret
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby CoolClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:17 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
The abortion thing should be the decision of the parents and no one else


That's a whole another topic, I'm just saying that it isn't as simple as having an aethistic society = a utopia.

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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:24 pm

CoolClaret wrote:That's a whole another topic, I'm just saying that it isn't as simple as having an aethistic society = a utopia.


A religious society isn't a utopia either, especially if you don't conform to what they believe.

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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:33 pm

Erasmus wrote:Godisadeejay, I am not sure whether you are referring to all forms of Christianity or all forms of religion. In either case, the representation you say you are rejecting is a shallow parody of religion. That's why I feel that to so ardently condemn a phenomenon you need to understand it more fully.

Religion, be it Christian or otherwise, has so much greater subtlety, complexity and depth than the way you represent it. If you want your views to be taken more seriously and to carry more weight, you really do need a clearer idea of what it is you dislike.


What would you like me to understand?
The belief that the human race evolved from just one person?
Eve was created using Adams rib, hence my one person comment.
What about the apple in the garden of Eve?
Maybe we should talk about Noah's family being the only people left alive after the flood that "covered the world" and his family repopulated the planet?

Maybe the bits of religion like the Spanish inquisition?
Or the crusades?

We can look at other religions if it helps, like the south Americans who sacrificed people to appease their chosen god, as shown by the recent discovery of a mass sacrificial grave.

I'm not just against the 3 Abrahamic religions, I'm against all of them as there has been much pain and suffering inflicted in the name of numerous god's because mankind is seemingly unable, or uninterested, in living without a god :roll:

I'd have zero issue with religion if it wasn't inflicted on people from birth, if it wasn't used as a money generating machine, or as a paedophile ring etc.

If there was one true God, then mankind would'vr worshipped just the one throughout its entire existence, but it's about 3k of god's isn't it that have been worshipped?
There is nothing that makes the Abrahamic god anymore real than the other 2999, even less so when it's clear as day that Christianity and Islam clearly borrowed heavily from older religions/stories when they were created.
Just repackaged and sold to the sheep as the one to follow.....

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby bfcjg » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:43 pm

For those who believe no proof is necessary for those who don't no proof is possible.
All I will comment that as you are reading or typing on your phone etc and someone said this phone just evolved and didn't have intelligence behind it you'd laugh. So why did everything else on earth and the cosmos have no intelligence behind it ?
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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:46 pm

Not going to lie, I'm struggling to make sense of your comment.

The opening sentence needs work to start with..

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby bfcjg » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:48 pm

I forgive you my son.
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CoolClaret
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby CoolClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:57 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:A religious society isn't a utopia either, especially if you don't conform to what they believe.


No doubt, I'm not arguing that.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Damo » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:12 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:What would you like me to understand?
The belief that the human race evolved from just one person?
Eve was created using Adams rib, hence my one person comment.
What about the apple in the garden of Eve?
Maybe we should talk about Noah's family being the only people left alive after the flood that "covered the world" and his family repopulated the planet?

Maybe the bits of religion like the Spanish inquisition?
Or the crusades?

We can look at other religions if it helps, like the south Americans who sacrificed people to appease their chosen god, as shown by the recent discovery of a mass sacrificial grave.

I'm not just against the 3 Abrahamic religions, I'm against all of them as there has been much pain and suffering inflicted in the name of numerous god's because mankind is seemingly unable, or uninterested, in living without a god :roll:

I'd have zero issue with religion if it wasn't inflicted on people from birth, if it wasn't used as a money generating machine, or as a paedophile ring etc.

If there was one true God, then mankind would'vr worshipped just the one throughout its entire existence, but it's about 3k of god's isn't it that have been worshipped?
There is nothing that makes the Abrahamic god anymore real than the other 2999, even less so when it's clear as day that Christianity and Islam clearly borrowed heavily from older religions/stories when they were created.
Just repackaged and sold to the sheep as the one to follow.....

You dont have to believe in all of that (I dont, I think its nonsense)
You can quietly accept that others do though. Even if you think it's a load of rubbish

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:14 pm

Damo wrote:You dont have to believe in all of that (I dont, I think its nonsense)
You can quietly accept that others do though. Even if you think it's a load of rubbish


One of my points is though that it's foisted onto kids before they can make up their own minds, indoctrination into the cult...
That people are so blinded by the religion they're in that, for example in Catholicism, they can't break free of it even when it's uncovered as a mass child abusing ring that's protects the abusers first and foremost.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Rileybobs » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:04 am

It’s weird that in all these years we’ve not managed to get a single piece of evidence to prove the existence of a god.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Jakubclaret » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:08 am

Rileybobs wrote:It’s weird that in all these years we’ve not managed to get a single piece of evidence to prove the existence of a god.

Not a god as such, but accounts from people who have undergone near to death life experiences & said something’s there, if believed.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:10 am

Rileybobs wrote:It’s weird that in all these years we’ve not managed to get a single piece of evidence to prove the existence of a god.


Religion never appears to need proof, just obedience....



Oh and lots and lots of money/treasures etc etc.
Odd that

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Spiral » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:40 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Not a god as such, but accounts from people who have undergone near to death life experiences & said something’s there, if believed.


Forgive me if I reflexively disregard the newly-found religiousness expressed by a person recovering from hypoxia of the brain. Ignoring the clinical rationalisation for near-death experience is as ridiculous as asserting blindness or paraplegia or even nausea as being God's will. Idiots.
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Jakubclaret » Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:27 am

Spiral wrote:Forgive me if I reflexively disregard the newly-found religiousness expressed by a person recovering from hypoxia of the brain. Ignoring the clinical rationalisation for near-death experience is as ridiculous as asserting blindness or paraplegia or even nausea as being God's will. Idiots.

That’s a far fetched analysis, put it this way some have gone on & made a complete full recovery so the above assertion might not necessarily be true for all cases, I’m open minded about this & willing to acknowledge that if somebody as experienced this & wishes to share the experiences, the least I can do is hear them out & retain a certain degree of clear cognitivity surrounding this.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby dsr » Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:36 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:One of my points is though that it's foisted onto kids before they can make up their own minds, indoctrination into the cult...
That people are so blinded by the religion they're in that, for example in Catholicism, they can't break free of it even when it's uncovered as a mass child abusing ring that's protects the abusers first and foremost.

So presumably you have taught your children to keep an open mind and that going into the Church is a fina and valid option? Specifically, you haven't told them any of your rants about religious people?

Parents do indoctrinate children into a lot of things. I've heard tell that people on this board quite openly admit to taking their children onto Turf Moor before they are old enough to make their own decisions as to whether they are football fans or not. What are you suggesting parents do - not teach their child anything until they're 18?

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Spiral » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:09 am

Jakubclaret wrote:That’s a far fetched analysis, put it this way some have gone on & made a complete full recovery so the above assertion might not necessarily be true for all cases, I’m open minded about this & willing to acknowledge that if somebody as experienced this & wishes to share the experiences, the least I can do is hear them out & retain a certain degree of clear cognitivity surrounding this.


A patient with an oxygen-starved brain is no higher authority on the true nature of death and reality than a prisoner on an LSD trip, I'm sorry to say. Probably less so, in fact. I don't know if you're holding on to these romantic notions of divinity and higher existence out of fear of your own mortality, but you're going to have an incredibly difficult time convincing me that this reality isn't utterly godless and without purpose beyond that which we define for ourselves. Some imbecile misreading his own temporary hypoxia-induced euphoria after his heart stops working as being a glimpse at the afterlife as understood and informed by the culture (fairytales) he has uncritically absorbed throughout his entire life isn't evidence of divinity; it's just some confused tw@t on his second heath bar with a delusion of grandeur putting himself at the centre of a narrative in which he is, quelle surprise, the f.ucking protagonist. It's unbelievably arrogant, to be frank.
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Jakubclaret
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Jakubclaret » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:02 am

Spiral wrote:A patient with an oxygen-starved brain is no higher authority on the true nature of death and reality than a prisoner on an LSD trip, I'm sorry to say. Probably less so, in fact. I don't know if you're holding on to these romantic notions of divinity and higher existence out of fear of your own mortality, but you're going to have an incredibly difficult time convincing me that this reality isn't utterly godless and without purpose beyond that which we define for ourselves. Some imbecile misreading his own temporary hypoxia-induced euphoria after his heart stops working as being a glimpse at the afterlife as understood and informed by the culture (fairytales) he has uncritically absorbed throughout his entire life isn't evidence of divinity; it's just some confused tw@t on his second heath bar with a delusion of grandeur putting himself at the centre of a narrative in which he is, quelle surprise, the f.ucking protagonist. It's unbelievably arrogant, to be frank.

I'm certainly not trying to convince you not that you've said i am, I'm not 100% convinced myself, taking what you've said onboard my stance is still the same, I'm more than willing to at least listen & formulate opinions on a case to case basis, I'm not religious at all but I'm all for having some sort of faith as it can be good grounding & a good institute for adhering to certain values integral to society, i don't think it's a good idea to push faith onto other people it should be kept to yourself & shared within a certain groups mindset, people who have experienced near to death experiences are quite insightful & informative to me & i also understand not all accounts will be the same. It's not fear of my own mortality or any romantic notions of a higher existence, it's the intrigue & desire to know more that excites me & i believe them that they aren't making things up to be at the centre of attention, all this is not supported by having a good current health record whilst the event's are taking place so the narratives can be dubious on a case to case basis.

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ClaretAndJew
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby ClaretAndJew » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:18 am

There's a reason we can't find proof of God, it's because there isn't one. It's really as simple as that.

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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:38 am

dsr wrote:So presumably you have taught your children to keep an open mind and that going into the Church is a fina and valid option? Specifically, you haven't told them any of your rants about religious people?

Parents do indoctrinate children into a lot of things. I've heard tell that people on this board quite openly admit to taking their children onto Turf Moor before they are old enough to make their own decisions as to whether they are football fans or not. What are you suggesting parents do - not teach their child anything until they're 18?


I've spoken about religion with my two eldest kids when they've asked and they know they're free to make their own mind up about it.

The only times they've been inside a church is for other people's ceremonies like weddings or christenings and it looks like staying that way from what I can gather, but it's their choice to live their lives how they see fit in that respect
They've got Muslim relatives, auntie and uncle, so they know that they can choose that path if they want.

In regards to football, it's a safe bet that if someone's kid doesn't want to attend, then they aren't forced too, so it's a bit different to religion.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Erasmus » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:53 am

All children are indoctrinated, it's an inevitable part of growing up. In the case of our society, children are indoctrinated into believing that consumer goods bring happiness. As for faith and proof, if one doesn't have faith in god then one tends to have faith that rational analysis is a suitable tool for discovering all truths. Despite the emphasis on rationality, it is still based on faith. Personally, I see all faith as questionable, including faith in the scientific method.

And as for the many gods, one might refer to the words of the Rigveda, ekam sad vipra bahudha vadanti, 'There is only one, but learned people speak of it in many different ways.'

To GodisaDeejay, your representations of religion demonstrate that you really don't know much about it. Of course religions do terrible things but why is that? And of course non-religions do terrible things. Why is that? Religion can be used by wrongdoers as a cover for wrongdoing, but so can secular ideologies. It's not about religion it's about people.
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:28 am

I know enough to understand that it's used to control mankind.
No god has ever been proven to exist, we can wait for another 2k years and I suspect it will never be proven.

I can read the Bible/Qur'an etc in their entirety and it still wouldn't prove, or validate, anything for me.

Religion does terrible things because it's the will of man to do terrible things and they hide behind religion to do it.
If there truly was a god do you honestly think it would be happy with the acts carried out in its name?

As for consumer goods, it's just marketing, like they've been doing with religion, you just need to know your customer base.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Imploding Turtle » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:37 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I know enough to understand that it's used to control mankind.
No god has ever been proven to exist, we can wait for another 2k years and I suspect it will never be proven.

I can read the Bible/Qur'an etc in their entirety and it still wouldn't prove, or validate, anything for me.

Religion does terrible things because it's the will of man to do terrible things and they hide behind religion to do it.
If there truly was a god do you honestly think it would be happy with the acts carried out in its name?

As for consumer goods, it's just marketing, like they've been doing with religion, you just need to know your customer base.


Maybe we, myself included, should stop blaming the religions for the oppression we all assume they cause. The obvious example being Islam. It's not Islam that's oppressing people, it's people.

The problem with doing that though is that pretty quickly after you stop blaming religions and start blaming mankind, you start top notice that actually it's not really all of mankind that is oppressing people, it's almost entirely men doing the oppressing, and that's pretty upsetting for the emotionally weak trigger-kittens who prefer to blame a grouping of people of which they are not a part.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Erasmus » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:47 am

No, nothing at all has been proven and nothing ever will. It is humanity's lot to live in a state of eternal uncertainty and that's why I think it is wrong to condemn religions just because their teachings seem unbelievable. As far as I can see everything is unbelievable.

And if there is a deity worthy of any respect then he cannot approve of atrocities done in his name. The brutality and oppression performed apparently in the name of god is the worst form of blasphemy.

The Shaiva Siddhanta tradition by contrast speaks constantly of the love of Shiva who exists within every living being. It is humanity's violent and greedy tendencies that prevent realisation of the presence of Shiva. And because of the love Shiva has for all beings he is best worshipped by taking fear away from others, by helping others, and through acts of kindness to others. This is also religion.

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Colburn_Claret
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Re: Religion wins again

Postby Colburn_Claret » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:31 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Religion never appears to need proof, just obedience....



Odd that

Thats why it's called faith.

There is no promise of anything in this life, only the next.

So **** happens to good people, and arseholes win the lottery. That doesn't mean there isn't a God, or that he doesn't care, only that he put us in this world to live a free life. There are many good people who don't believe in God, just as there are many bastards who claim they do.
Religion starts from within. It may be thrust on you from an early age, but ultimately you only follow it if you feel it inside. I do, and I feel for those that don't, as Damos friend said, there is great comfort in believing that you will meet loved ones again. When times are hard, it reminds you that there are more important things going on in the world. It cleared my mind of self pity, and my whole world changed.
I would never preach to anyone, and I don't go around pushing religion, my closest friends would probably be surprised to know that I believe in God, but it gives me a peace inside that nobody can touch.


I can understand why people don't believe, but I can't understand anyone being anti religion. It isn't religions that are wrong, just some of the messengers. You are blaming religion for wars, and hatred, when nothing could be further from the truth. Because some Zealots try to twist the words of God isn't religions fault.

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby willsclarets » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:34 pm

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

― Epicurus

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Re: Religion wins again

Postby willsclarets » Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:12 pm

Erasmus wrote: Personally, I see all faith as questionable, including faith in the scientific method.


It's a non-sensical argument to say that faith has anything to do with science. People always overlook the fact that at the heart of scientific enquiry is the humility to say that we don't know everything, and that what we do know or understand might evolve when new evidence comes to light. Faith in a particular religion makes this impossible, thankfully we've moved on as a society (despite religion) and people aren't burned at the stake for deviating from a religion's perspective on reality. Religion, at it's very heart, claims truths about our existence, the universe we live in and the laws it abides by. It can be relatively trivial - could you call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe in the Resurrection of Christ? Well, to me that steps on the toes of everything we know about biology. Or it could be condemning people to death by spreading the lie that condoms actually cause AIDS.

What people are talking about mainly in the above, are people who essentially take their faith less seriously or have a wooly belief in the book their particular religion is based on. It's just a vague sense there is a God, or something 'bigger' than us. Fine. But there are people who take it much more seriously, and to me it's essential to rubbish claims to truth that are made in religious texts that cannot be just let go. And it's not good enough to say that these abhorrent actions are people interpreting their religion falsely. Whether it's rights of gay people, women, abortion, genital mutilation and lord knows how many other social and scientific issues - it's a battle all the time for religion to bend thinking that has already been established in the heart of society. And then believers in a particular faith will say "well, we don't believe or teach that anymore" as if the text itself was never to blame.
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