Bury : No Wages

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ClaretTony
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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:35 pm

claretdj wrote:Wow more lies from Dale, interesting listen on talk sport this morning. Player v owner have it out live on air!
https://twitter.com/talkSPORT/status/11 ... 37824?s=08" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I'm the one not sleeping at night," he says. Well I bet there are a hell of a lot of Bury fans right now struggling to sleep, and honest and fair ones at that, not complete liars like this bloke.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:36 pm

claretdj wrote:Also my Bury supporter pal asked me to add a link to a petition to try to remove the idiot trying to kill their club! if any fellow clarets would take the time to sign it would be much appreciated.
http://chng.it/dJBkJydc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Signed and no hesitation in signing either

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by aggi » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:15 pm

ClaretTony wrote:It's a serious situation and a serious thread, which I've more than keeping up with, about a long established club potentially being lost and all you can come up with is total stupidity.
You might not like it but it's a serious point.

Is it better for the club to go to the wall, cease to exist and all of the creditors lose out or for them to be bought and shifted elsewhere?

It's not like the new club will be taking another club's place. The other option will be no club.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by No Ney Never » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:17 pm

mdd2 wrote:Looking pretty bleak for them. AFC Bury in non- league obscurity looms and if that happens they will be the second club to go with their names (twice) on the FA Cup along with Notts County (once). Can't think of any others with such a history
The Venkys love throwing their money away on non - entities, maybe amalgamation of two struggling clubs. Fancy a cup tie, Burnley v Blackbury? That'd get the juices flowing. :D

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:23 pm

aggi wrote:You might not like it but it's a serious point.

Is it better for the club to go to the wall, cease to exist and all of the creditors lose out or for them to be bought and shifted elsewhere?

It's not like the new club will be taking another club's place. The other option will be no club.
Can't be shifted elsewhere, league rules didn't permit it when it happened last time but it went to court, to the FA and finally to a three man independent commission that decided on it 2-1 with one of those voting in favour having no knowledge or interest in football. The rules have been very much tightened since so it can't be shifted elsewhere.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Sausage » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:00 pm

aggi wrote:You might not like it but it's a serious point.

Is it better for the club to go to the wall, cease to exist and all of the creditors lose out or for them to be bought and shifted elsewhere?

It's not like the new club will be taking another club's place. The other option will be no club.
It might be a serious point but it doesn't hold water. I know quite a few AFC Wimbledon fans and attended a handful of matches in their first season in the Combined Counties League in 2002/03. Every single one of them stated then (and now, given that I work with a couple) that they'd have preferred the old Wimbledon to have gone bust than for it have been pillaged by a music producer and moved to Buckinghamshire. When you move a club - especially the distance Wimbledon was moved - you disenfranchise the fan base and they walk away. If Bury FC was moved, it'd be a business decision not a decision made in the fans' best interests. I'm pretty sure most Bury fans would rather reform as a phoenix club playing at Gigg Lane in the North West Counties League than be bought, moved and re-branded somewhere else in England just so the club can stay in the football league.
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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by dsr » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:07 pm

aggi wrote:You might not like it but it's a serious point.

Is it better for the club to go to the wall, cease to exist and all of the creditors lose out or for them to be bought and shifted elsewhere?

It's not like the new club will be taking another club's place. The other option will be no club.
It's "no club" either way. Suppose Burnley were bought by some rich guy, moved to Basingstoke, had their name changed to Basingstoke Wanderers, all season ticket records and loyalty points cleared, Turf Moor knocked down. Would you think "goody - my club is still intact" or not?

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Leisure » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:20 pm

I listened to the interview and the Chairman and the player seem to be at cross purposes (not sure if it's intentionally or unintentionally) regarding payments to the players. The player was saying that he hadn't been paid (maybe he meant in full) but the Chairman was saying that he had been payed, in that he received 50% of the wages due. Sounds like the player is correct in that he hasn't been paid what was due to him in full but didn't really answer the Chairman's question of 'have you received a 50% payment'. Although the Chairman was adamant that the club would not fold he didn't give any substance behind that statement. I can understand that he must be under enormous pressure but he doesn't seem to be helping himself by not giving the financial information/undertaking that the FA have asked for. Doesn't sound like it will end well for the club/players/fans.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Andingle » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:28 pm

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/fi ... extinction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Andingle » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:45 pm

Leisure wrote:I listened to the interview and the Chairman and the player seem to be at cross purposes (not sure if it's intentionally or unintentionally) regarding payments to the players. The player was saying that he hadn't been paid (maybe he meant in full) but the Chairman was saying that he had been payed, in that he received 50% of the wages due. Sounds like the player is correct in that he hasn't been paid what was due to him in full but didn't really answer the Chairman's question of 'have you received a 50% payment'. Although the Chairman was adamant that the club would not fold he didn't give any substance behind that statement. I can understand that he must be under enormous pressure but he doesn't seem to be helping himself by not giving the financial information/undertaking that the FA have asked for. Doesn't sound like it will end well for the club/players/fans.
Staff have not been payed since March from the club , any payment has come from the PFA .
Steve Dale bought the club for £1 saying he would pay off the debts but has no money , the below link from 13 minutes 40 secs explains a bit about the bloke.
https://talksport.com/radio/listen-agai ... 565949600/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:21 pm

Sausage wrote:It might be a serious point but it doesn't hold water. I know quite a few AFC Wimbledon fans and attended a handful of matches in their first season in the Combined Counties League in 2002/03. Every single one of them stated then (and now, given that I work with a couple) that they'd have preferred the old Wimbledon to have gone bust than for it have been pillaged by a music producer and moved to Buckinghamshire. When you move a club - especially the distance Wimbledon was moved - you disenfranchise the fan base and they walk away. If Bury FC was moved, it'd be a business decision not a decision made in the fans' best interests. I'm pretty sure most Bury fans would rather reform as a phoenix club playing at Gigg Lane in the North West Counties League than be bought, moved and re-branded somewhere else in England just so the club can stay in the football league.
Some just don't understand

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Goobs » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:48 pm

Just listened to that Talk sport clip and don't know what to make of it all. Seems neither Dale or the player were fully forthcoming with the truth to me.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:10 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Some just don't understand
Not being argumentative for the sake of it here.
Serious question. Are you saying that Salford City taking over Bury (a couple of years ago when they were a few divisions below the League 2) would not have been permitted?
(I can think of quite a few reasons why this might have been quite an attractive proposition to the owners with their Bury connections).

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Dark Cloud » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:14 pm

Dale clearly couldn't give a toss what the wider world think of him or how he is perceived and he knows that in terms of being newsworthy he'll disappear back under the radar soon enough. Ultimately he saw Bury as he sees all his other business ventures, not as a football club, but as an ailing business which could be bought extremely cheaply and then cleverly manipulated to make a lot of dosh and if the football club had to die in the process then so be it. He is looking to make a very fast buck and yes, the covenant on the land may well be a rather large stumbling block to what I imagine was his first and foremost plan to sell it all off at a huge profit for housing, but he's clever enough and thick skinned enough to know there's far more ways to skin a cat and the setting up of this dodgy company which is suddenly owed millions of pounds is proof of that. Ultimately he's bound to win as he owns the club and can do exactly what he wants to with it once he takes carrying on as a football club off the table and although I think the EFL are bending over backwards now to try to save the club, he's simply ducking and diving and avoiding actually doing anything which might help. Having said that, the EFL should NEVER have let this obvious clown (or his predecessor) buy a football club and they really need to have a good long look in the proverbial as they're now trying to pick up the pieces of a very avoidable mess!
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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:24 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Not being argumentative for the sake of it here.
Serious question. Are you saying that Salford City taking over Bury (a couple of years ago when they were a few divisions below the League 2) would not have been permitted?
(I can think of quite a few reasons why this might have been quite an attractive proposition to the owners with their Bury connections).
Absolutely it wouldn't have been permitted - places in the league have to be won on merit by winning promotion, not by franchising. Thank goodness the rules were tightened up.
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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Andingle » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:42 pm

Jill Neville club secretary now resigned

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:55 pm

Andingle wrote:Jill Neville club secretary now resigned
Bloody hell. She’s been part of the furniture.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by No Ney Never » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:00 pm

If Bury FC as we know it becomes no longer existent, and Dale can prove there's no call for a sports stadia, can he apply to the courts to have the covenant over the ground removed?
You can see where I'm going with this.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Andingle » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:03 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Bloody hell. She’s been part of the furniture.
About 30 years , said she would not return under the currant ownership.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by NL Claret » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:23 pm

Have just seen Jill has gone, as mentioned above she has been there a long time. Her late husband, mum (Mollie) and father in law (Bill) all did a lot for the club. Very sad it see the club in a complete mess, noticed the other day the bloke who did the CVA was disciplined twice last July.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by bfcjg » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:34 pm

Have the Bury supporters trust or similar got a case to sue the EFL for their failure yet again to properly administer the fit and proper person test ?

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by NL Claret » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:50 pm

bfcjg wrote:Have the Bury supporters trust or similar got a case to sue the EFL for their failure yet again to properly administer the fit and proper person test ?
If you read an article by David Conn , Dale didn't pass the fit and proper test in December but still took over the ownership. The EFL punishment is a transfer embargo.........

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by bfcjg » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:00 pm

NL Claret wrote:If you read an article by David Conn , Dale didn't pass the fit and proper test in December but still took over the ownership. The EFL punishment is a transfer embargo.........
Unbelievable.
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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Dark Cloud » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:38 pm

No Ney Never wrote:If Bury FC as we know it becomes no longer existent, and Dale can prove there's no call for a sports stadia, can he apply to the courts to have the covenant over the ground removed?
You can see where I'm going with this.
I wondered very much the same thing tbh. If the football has long gone and the place is totally derelict and falling apart and attracting vandals and ner do wells, I'm sure there might be ways in which a covenant can be legally challenged and ripped up and the area put to "good use". Dale will have explored all this for certain. There may even be precedents.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:43 pm

NL Claret wrote:If you read an article by David Conn , Dale didn't pass the fit and proper test in December but still took over the ownership. The EFL punishment is a transfer embargo.........
You would just hope the league will learn from their total incompetence. They have at least started by ridding themselves of Harvey.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Gerry Hattrick » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:46 pm

Dark Cloud wrote:I wondered very much the same thing tbh. If the football has long gone and the place is totally derelict and falling apart and attracting vandals and ner do wells, I'm sure there might be ways in which a covenant can be legally challenged and ripped up and the area put to "good use". Dale will have explored all this for certain. There may even be precedents.
Lucas Sports Ground at Reedley.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Dark Cloud » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:05 pm

Gerry Hattrick wrote:Lucas Sports Ground at Reedley.
Was there a "covenant" on that? And if so, did someone go to some lengths to nullify it?

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by dsr » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:55 pm

No Ney Never wrote:If Bury FC as we know it becomes no longer existent, and Dale can prove there's no call for a sports stadia, can he apply to the courts to have the covenant over the ground removed?
You can see where I'm going with this.
There will be calls for it to be used as a sports stadium. There is bound to be a new club, probably with the usual silly name beginning AFC in the current fashionable way of trying to seem important by being near the beginning of the alphabet.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by claretdj » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:18 am

WILL ALL CLARETS ON HERE PLEASE BLOODY SIGN THE PETITION IN THE LINK ABOVE!! :oops:

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:25 am

If there is a petition to sign it is probably this one -

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/268665" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by No Ney Never » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:24 am

Gerry Hattrick wrote:Lucas Sports Ground at Reedley.
Did that land have a covenant over its use that required removing before any development could take place, or was it a simple change of use planning application?

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Richardsbfc » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:33 am

Sounds like he has no intention of selling the club based on the TalkSport interview. Worrying really.

One thing I found crazy that Steve Dale said was that the club were in a bad state of affairs before he took over which he wasnt aware of. Surely as a businessman, you've got to do your due diligence before taking over a company. Every penny owed as soon as he signed the dotted line was his debt.

How he has the audacity to say otherwise is ludacris!

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by nil_desperandum » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:24 am

Richardsbfc wrote: One thing I found crazy that Steve Dale said was that the club were in a bad state of affairs before he took over which he wasnt aware of. !
Umm, I wonder why he thought it was available for £1 then?! The guy appears to be a crook, and increasingly comes across as a moron.
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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Dark Cloud » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:33 pm

He bought it for £1 so if he ends up with £2 he's doubled his money and anything else above that is real bonus territory. He can't lose tbh.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Gerry Hattrick » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:03 pm

No Ney Never wrote:Did that land have a covenant over its use that required removing before any development could take place, or was it a simple change of use planning application?
Yes, it definitely had one dating back to when Lucas bought it.
I don't know the legal procedure that took place to allow building on the site but presumably the covenant would have to be removed, otherwise there seems no point in having one.
Perhaps though, the fact there was one got lost in the mists of time. Would be interesting if someone could answer to your question.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:22 pm

James Frith MP tries to get the EFL to suspend the expulsion threat

https://twitter.com/JamesFrith/status/1 ... 8244824065" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Murger » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:27 pm

He's turned down an offer to sell the club

https://bbc.in/2ZgFO3F" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by gc14 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:41 pm

Dark Lane, Rossendale United is another, plagued with vandals then a suspicious fire ... then bang the planning
application in ..

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by 1HappyClaret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:51 pm

Sheffield Wednesday get a bye in the cup and game against Tranmere suspended. League share to be withdrawn on a Friday.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:24 pm

Saturday's came with Tranmere now postponed - bet they were looking forward to another goalfest

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by MrTopTier » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:37 pm

About 30 years , said she would not return under the currant ownership
.

Did she give a raisin?
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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by mdd2 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:51 pm

Really looking dire now for them
Was Aldershot the last club to go under during the season and have records expunged?
Bury of course haven’t even started the season
Most who have gone under seem to have done it at the end of the season bit no doubt CT will have chapter and verse
Boston Hereford Darlington Halifax have risen again from going out of business I think but all were non league at the time I think

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:50 pm

mdd2 wrote:Really looking dire now for them
Was Aldershot the last club to go under during the season and have records expunged?
Bury of course haven’t even started the season
Most who have gone under seem to have done it at the end of the season bit no doubt CT will have chapter and verse
Boston Hereford Darlington Halifax have risen again from going out of business I think but all were non league at the time I think
Yes but I cannot see much appetite once the old club goes. Tradition is about all Bury has going for it.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Andingle » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:02 pm

https://www.burytimes.co.uk/sport/17849 ... cva-claim/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:02 pm

mdd2 wrote:Really looking dire now for them
Was Aldershot the last club to go under during the season and have records expunged?
Bury of course haven’t even started the season
Most who have gone under seem to have done it at the end of the season bit no doubt CT will have chapter and verse
Boston Hereford Darlington Halifax have risen again from going out of business I think but all were non league at the time I think
The only clubs I can recall off the top of my head who went out of business as league clubs are Accrington, Aldershot and Maidstone. The first two were during the season but Maidstone completed their fixtures. The latter two were in the same season.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:39 pm

Murger wrote:He's turned down an offer to sell the club

https://bbc.in/2ZgFO3F" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Seems the prospective buyer is Norman Smurthwaite who has just left Port Vale. I don’t think you would find a Vale fan with a good word for him.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by NL Claret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:56 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Seems the prospective buyer is Norman Smurthwaite who has just left Port Vale. I don’t think you would find a Vale fan with a good word for him.
:o

http://twohundredpercent.net/a-warning- ... port-vale/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This was from 6 years ago! I can't think of the name of a Bury board member under Day who had Port Vale connections.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by NL Claret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:11 pm

https://www.onevalefan.co.uk/2013/06/bu ... ern-grows/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Glen Thomas was the one I was trying to think of.

Don't know too much about the Port Vale situation over the past few years but another connection to Bury FC with Norman what ever he's called.

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by Dark Cloud » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:21 am

The Port Vale situation has been extremely toxic for some time under the "stewardship" of Smurthwaite, but he finally agreed to jog on a short while back and 2 local, seemingly well heeled fans took over, so there's light in that particular tunnel. However, if Smurthwaite now moves on to another club, such as Bury for example, then he'll be the third useless charlatan they've had in two years and their future will remain bleak/terminal! Frying pan and fire!
TBH I'd be utterly surprised if Dale agrees to sell to pretty much anyone. He actually wants the club to fold and at some point the "covenant" will be ripped up and he'll make an absolute fortune from the developers. After all he only paid £1 for the lot!!

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Re: Bury : No Wages

Post by ClaretTony » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:15 pm

I’d agree that he appears happy for the club to shut down although I think he’d move if someone offered him a big enough profit.

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