Bury : No Wages

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:31 am

Tuddybfc wrote:Can’t believe there’s Burnley fans trying to use Bury as an example of ‘the damage of overspedning’ when they’re in leagues 1/2 and we make multi millions per year in the premier league and are debt free. Anything to fit an agenda

If/when we get relegated from the Premier league the financial clout we have now will come in very useful when revenues drop. As a personal question; do you spend all your pay or do you put some away every month? Your answer will most probably explain a lot.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:35 am

What's the situation with Bury's ground?

So far as I can gather it appears to have been shifted off to a different company but is that company part of the administration or a separate company that is still a going concern?

I think I saw that there was a covenant on the ground meaning it can only be for sporting use which I assume would seriously damage the sale value and gives a better chance of it still being around for any phoenix club.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:47 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:I'm not against owners putting money in, I'm against them loaning the club money and in some instances taking interest off it.

It's hard enough to break even in football without being saddled with debt.

Are you aware that Accy chairman has lent the club well over a £1m this summer to fund infrastructure upgrades and land purchases - that will help the club generate future revenues - all with a structured payback plan that is included in the club budgets. He tried in vain to get it from banks but was refused point blank.

The key here is that it is based on a business plan that does not involve promotion, and incorporates the risk of relegation and is not about buying additional players or offering bigger wages to playing staff recruits. He is keen to improve/secure the clubs financial stability, revenue streams and asset base.

There is a reason why away fans flock (often in their thousands) to a ground notorious for it's atrocious weather and open terrace - the club provides for them in a way they don't even get at home for the most part - even moving their own fans in seats so that away fans can use them at no extra charge if it is bucketing down

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:04 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Are you aware that Accy chairman has lent the club well over a £1m this summer to fund infrastructure upgrades and land purchases - that will help the club generate future revenues - all with a structured payback plan that is included in the club budgets. He tried in vain to get it from banks but was refused point blank.

The key here is that it is based on a business plan that does not involve promotion, and incorporates the risk of relegation and is not about buying additional players or offering bigger wages to playing staff recruits. He is keen to improve/secure the clubs financial stability, revenue streams and asset base.

There is a reason why away fans flock (often in their thousands) to a ground notorious for it's atrocious weather and open terrace - the club provides for them in a way they don't even get at home for the most part - even moving their own fans in seats so that away fans can use them at no extra charge if it is bucketing down

Andy is a one off in he realises the buck stops with him and if the club can't pay it back he will be responsible.

He's had to put his own money in to cover the money lost from Bury not coming for their game. If Bolton go bump as well they will lose two local derbies. Their two biggest games of the season.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:38 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Andy is a one off in he realises the buck stops with him and if the club can't pay it back he will be responsible.

He's had to put his own money in to cover the money lost from Bury not coming for their game. If Bolton go bump as well they will lose two local derbies. Their two biggest games of the season.

there are others look at Marc and Niola Palios at Tranmere - the new owners at Port Vale are very much the same, even MacAnthony at Peterborough has learned and keeps everything manageable - despite some unorthodox deals with Barry Fry in the past - New guy - Sadler - at Blackpool has started well too - crikey even Leeds are well managed financially now

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:40 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Who can overturn the covenant? The council or the courts? I wouldn’t want to be a Bury councilor that did that.

I've no direct experience, but I would suspect it's not that difficult. The ground and surrounding car parks etc will rapidly fall into disrepair, travelers and local youth/vandals will be all over it and it will become an eyesore and local hazard. Nearby residents will soon start complaining and the council will be under fire to "get summut done" and before you know it the covenant is gonners and Dale sells to a developer for loads of cash (which I believe has been his aim all along) Earlier in the thread somebody suggested Lucas sports pitches had a similar covenant which eventually "simply blew away" (As Mike would say!)

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:06 pm

It is a long way down but opportunities exist for a phoenix club

https://www.nwcfl.com/news-articles.php?id=7707" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:09 pm

I have no knowledge whatsoever about covenants, but if there is no sport to be played on it, then at some point the covenant must surely become void?

Like letting a listing fall into unsafe conditions so you can knock it down and use the land?

...listing is shorthand for 'listed building...'

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:28 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:I have no knowledge whatsoever about covenants, but if there is no sport to be played on it, then at some point the covenant must surely become void?

Like letting a listing fall into unsafe conditions so you can knock it down and use the land?

...listing is shorthand for 'listed building...'

Mill Moor is still standing. Not been used for years.

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:32 pm

aggi wrote:What's the situation with Bury's ground?

So far as I can gather it appears to have been shifted off to a different company but is that company part of the administration or a separate company that is still a going concern?

I think I saw that there was a covenant on the ground meaning it can only be for sporting use which I assume would seriously damage the sale value and gives a better chance of it still being around for any phoenix club.

I might be wrong on this but I think Dale set up new companies and transferred the ground into 1 and the memorabilia into another. Apparently there are all sorts of charges and leases held against the ground. There was a loan which bury agreed to receive 60% and the rest went to someone as an introductory fee. The names Paul Dalton and Glen Thomas are frequently coming up.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:38 pm

NL Claret wrote:Mill Moor is still standing. Not been used for years.

They are not allowed to do anything with Millmoor because of a covenant which stipulates it can only be used for sport.

It's almost 5 years since we played at the new ground - this is how Millmoor looked then.

Sausage · Post by **Sausage** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:48 pm

If anyone here thinks it’s easy to get a restrictive covenant lifted, can you post your mobile phone and email address on this forum so that the multi-millionaire lawyers who specialise in this field can benefit from your experience?

It’s actually one of the most laborious processes in property law. To think the restrictive covenant on Gigg Lane will somehow be lifted by sleight of hand is, quite frankly, naive. As long as there is a party willing to enforce the covenant and demonstrate there is a need for it, anyone arguing to the contrary faces a monumental struggle. Gigg Lane night well be left to rot and disappear under a pile of weeds (that’s the owner’s prerogative) but it’ll be a long time before it’s used for anything other than sport.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:58 pm

Sausage wrote:If anyone here thinks it’s easy to get a restrictive covenant lifted, can you post your mobile phone and email address on this forum so that the multi-millionaire lawyers who specialise in this field can benefit from your experience?

It’s actually one of the most laborious processes in property law. To think the restrictive covenant on Gigg Lane will somehow be lifted by sleight of hand is, quite frankly, naive. As long as there is a party willing to enforce the covenant and demonstrate there is a need for it, anyone arguing to the contrary faces a monumental struggle. Gigg Lane night well be left to rot and disappear under a pile of weeds (that’s the owner’s prerogative) but it’ll be a long time before it’s used for anything other than sport.

Well obviously I really don't know if it's at all easy or even possible (but as mentioned someone said it had been done elsewhere in the past) and I sincerely hope you're right because I'd absolutely hate this Dale scally to actually seriously profit from all this.

Sausage · Post by **Sausage** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:06 pm

I think he’s in for a rude awakening, DarkCloud.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:09 pm

Sausage wrote:I think he’s in for a rude awakening, DarkCloud.

Oh I really do hope so!! I'm not a closet Bury fan or owt, but this guy is clearly a very slimy customer (wa**er!) and I'd hate to see him come out of this mess with loads of cash.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:00 pm

Any plans for a phoenix club yet afoot does anyone know?

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:02 pm

Falcon wrote:Any plans for a phoenix club yet afoot does anyone know?

I'm sure i remember the Forever Bury fan group had said they were prepared for all eventualities including the need for a phoenix club. I guess its all too raw just now though

Murger · Post by **Murger** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:02 pm

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... -expulsion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Where were they yesterday? Another bunch of chancers by the looks of it.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:02 pm

What has Steve Dale done wrong?

If you read the link in post 593, he doesn't own the ground or car park. They were sold (I thought mortgaged) by the previous chairman. Didn't I also read that Dale has put cash into the club, to pay the Inland Revenue amongst others. In other words this whole affair has cost him and I can't see how he'll get anything back.

The Bury directors - there are presumably other directors - surely have to take the bulk of the blame, not the EFL. It seems reasonable that they should manage the club properly and they've clearly utterly failed.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:26 pm

Murger wrote:https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... -expulsion

Where were they yesterday? Another bunch of chancers by the looks of it.

they were there yesterday but told the EFL they couldn't transfer the money into a particular bank account until 10am today. Hopefully the EFL will relent and get Bury voted back in, it's too important to the town .

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:36 pm

Hipper wrote:What has Steve Dale done wrong?

If you read the link in post 593, he doesn't own the ground or car park. They were sold (I thought mortgaged) by the previous chairman. Didn't I also read that Dale has put cash into the club, to pay the Inland Revenue amongst others. In other words this whole affair has cost him and I can't see how he'll get anything back.

The Bury directors - there are presumably other directors - surely have to take the bulk of the blame, not the EFL. It seems reasonable that they should manage the club properly and they've clearly utterly failed.

Where have you heard he paid an Inland Revenue bill?

I thought he hadn't paid a penny after his pound was spent buying it?

Tuddybfc · Post by **Tuddybfc** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:57 pm

BennyD wrote:If/when we get relegated from the Premier league the financial clout we have now will come in very useful when revenues drop. As a personal question; do you spend all your pay or do you put some away every month? Your answer will most probably explain a lot.

A mixture of both, spend where necessary but also stay sensible. Burnley’s midfield consists of a far past it winger, a 19 year old we’re having to risk burning out and a bloke on loan for 6 months... I agree with dyche that is the most competitive group we’ve had, but we could no doubt have improved in areas and addressed our worryingly high average squad age

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:33 pm

wembley94 · Post by **wembley94** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:08 pm

Feel sorry for Bury fans.but a Brazilian pastor https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49509774" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:21 pm

The CVA is now being investigated following the revelations about RCR Holdings

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... estigation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:35 pm

Dale will end up in jail

Buxtonclaret · Post by **Buxtonclaret** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:51 pm

Chester Perry wrote:The CVA is now being investigated following the revelations about RCR Holdings

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... estigation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, does this infer Dale has lied about the scale of debt via the CVA in order to somehow scam a million?

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:29 pm

Chester Perry wrote:The CVA is now being investigated following the revelations about RCR Holdings

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... estigation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -july-2018" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Came out a few weeks back about this character.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:53 pm

This whole RCR Holdings thing is a clear scam and it looks like Dale got a guy with a "questionable" track record to do the CVA so he could get it through. Now looks like Wiseman might be going under the bus!

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:59 pm

Chester Perry wrote:The CVA is now being investigated following the revelations about RCR Holdings

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... estigation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't quite remember the details but wasn't some of that debt excluded from the calculations to avoid it being double counted?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:30 pm

If there is a new bidder, then what the League ought to do is make it clear that it's too late for this year, but on payment of suitable compensation to the rest of the clubs in the division, they can take up a place in the conference next season. This year they will save the expense of paying any players, and they will suffer the relegation they certainly would have suffered if they had played, plus another relegation as combined punishment for failing to fulfil any fixtures this year and for cheating their way to promotion last year with omney they didn't have.

(What I really think the League ought to do is make a general rule that if you don't pay all your debts, you are out. But they haven't the will power to come anywhere near that.)

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:35 pm

What I THINK has happened is Dale has set up a company to buy the debt off Day (well Day's company) for £70,000. Day pockets 70 grand, which is better than the nothing he might end up with and Dale takes his chances on recovering the entire debt or at least enough of it to make a tidy profit. What Dale has apparently been shifty with is attempting to hide the fact that he has bought the debt which is owed by a company (Bury FC) that he actually owns by hastily setting up RCR Holdings to buy it in a relatives name. Wiseman it SEEMS thought there was nothing amiss about this.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:56 pm

ClaretTony wrote:There was an old bloke interviewed this week outside Gigg Lane. He’s 78 and had been watching Bury for over 70 years. He turned up every day at the ground to see if there was any news.

When the staff thought things were in place they got the match programme prepared for this Saturday’s game. It won’t be produced now but they are having one copy done for this man.

7FD86126-4886-4D4A-B0A0-9122E488B1FA.jpeg

Quality!

clarethomer · Post by **clarethomer** » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:24 pm

https://apple.news/A1T9s7LWhSU-M2OW1BTsUMg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... s-19110101" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:35 pm

He likes a ramble does Mr Dale, doesn't he!!??? (But he's never been a fan of concrete facts, actual hard evidence or indeed punctuation!

)

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:44 pm

That's a pretty badly prepared letter which is no more then a rant.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:25 pm

I can't see this legal action being successful,Bury FC had plenty of chances to put their house in order,and the league give them numerous deadlines,how long could this continue indefinitely,and with their fixtures not being fulfilled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49526433

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:37 pm

He's simply trying very hard to make out he's not the bad guy here and that he's been fighting Bury's corner tooth and nail along with the real supporters every step of the way against the evil EFL who appear to have a vendetta against the club. Nobody in their right mind is buying that.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:23 am

I don't think the league come out of all this very well at all but in the end they had no option really but to expel them. It's not as though it came out of the blue, deadlines were given.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:25 am

I don't think the League's fault is in expelling Bury. It's in firstly, letting Dale buy the club in the first place; and secondly, dithering like crazy ever since.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:40 am

Bury have been given ample time TBH. The latest saviour a Brazilian pastor who's worth millions and wants to buy a loss making small provincial club out of the goodness of his heart whilst walking past hungry slum dwellers in the numerous Brazilian shanty towns. Hmmm has Dale a cousin who's also an actor ?

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:49 am

For the last time. The EFL did not let Dale buy the club. There is nothing to stop this happening. He failed fit and proper as he could not show he had the funds and probably the intention of paying wages or bills. He still went ahead and became the registered owner.

The EFL problem is that their punishment is an embargo on registering players. It does not fit the crime. The club should have been suspended in December. Would have stopped them pinching the ticket money off Carlisle.

Andy Holt says owners should have to buy a licence to own a club. If that owner fails to pay wages / bills then the money comes out of the bond which the owner paid for the licence. Would stop this happening.

thelaughingclaret · Post by **thelaughingclaret** » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:16 pm

The local Bury MP is in talks with the EFL to get bury reinstated in the EFL from next season in league two. They were nailed on to get relegated this season even if they had stayed in the league so this would effectively mean the club would escape punishment.
I don’t get why an member of parliament is getting so involved in this. Do we want politicians and their politics to start running football? By talking to this MP the EFL are looking more and more daft every single day. It’s a joke.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49542380" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:41 am

thelaughingclaret wrote:The local Bury MP is in talks with the EFL to get bury reinstated in the EFL from next season in league two. They were nailed on to get relegated this season even if they had stayed in the league so this would effectively mean the club would escape punishment.
I don’t get why an member of parliament is getting so involved in this. Do we want politicians and their politics to start running football? By talking to this MP the EFL are looking more and more daft every single day. It’s a joke.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49542380" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Surely the elected MP is only doing the best by his constituents. Jobs etc are reliant on the club...

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:25 pm

ClaretDiver wrote:Surely the elected MP is only doing the best by his constituents. Jobs etc are reliant on the club...

I'm pretty sure he is / was a season ticket holder and is a bury lad so as well as constituents is probably massively upset and angry on a personal level.

Played cricket with a few times about 20 years ago.

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:18 pm

I can't see any harm in starting in League 2 next season as long as a new owner can prove the funds are there and everybody is paid what they are owed. If they are liquidated on the other hand, they should effectively start again in non-league.

thelaughingclaret · Post by **thelaughingclaret** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:51 pm

Well this will set an interesting precedent. Any club can now throw money they don’t have at promotion and if they get kicked out of the league no worries, they’ll just get reinstated 1 season later in the league they were always going to be playing in anyway.
All that’s basically happening here is bury are getting a year out of football. I think since they were always going to get relegated they should start at least in the national league no higher. As I said it sets a precedent that the league will basically not punish clubs who spend above their means.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:20 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:I can't see any harm in starting in League 2 next season as long as a new owner can prove the funds are there and everybody is paid what they are owed. If they are liquidated on the other hand, they should effectively start again in non-league.

and how do you think club and their fans that will miss out on promotion to L2, if Bury are given their place, will feel about it?

No Ney Never · Post by **No Ney Never** » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:31 am

At what level of football league would Bury be admitted should they apply next season; a) if they are a full time professional club and b) If they are part time/semi professional?
Level 5 - National League.
Level 6 - National League North.
Level 7 - Northern Premier League.
Level 8 - Northern Premier League Division One North West.
OR maybe even lower?
FC United of Manchester as a semi professional club, started in the Second Division of the North West Counties Football League (NWCFL), which is level ten of the English football league system.

No Ney Never · Post by **No Ney Never** » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:11 am

According to the Times, Dale has taken £115k out of the club since January.