Bury : No Wages

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:45 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I’d agree that he appears happy for the club to shut down although I think he’d move if someone offered him a big enough profit.

Didn't he say he wanted £5m from a potential buyer?

£3m to pay off the debts leaving him with a £1,999,999 profit for the "work he has put in"

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:52 pm

I know there is a thread somewhere but I wanted to ask anyone, seriously, if they know exactly what is going on there. They have yet to play a game of any kind this season and they have an 11 point deduction to start with. A spokesman for the club (think it was their owner) said at weekend that he thinks the Football League is working against them (strenuously denied by them of course), but I can't help thinking that it is the case, I was thinking so even before it was mentioned. If you are telling someone to get their financial house in order but then stopping them from even having any income how is that helping in any way whatsoever?

Perhaps I am being too simplistic (or am I just being logical).

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:56 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:Didn't he say he wanted £5m from a potential buyer?

£3m to pay off the debts leaving him with a £1,999,999 profit for the "work he has put in"

Apparently so. I’d love to know what work he’s put in.

Fretters · Post by **Fretters** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:00 pm

As far as I can tell, the football league want them to prove they can go on financially. This won't happen until the owner sells, which he won't do until he receives what he believes to be a suitable offer (he's just rejected one).

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:05 pm

Going off the BT article, I think Dale is holding out for his £3.6m director loan in full. It could be questioned where the loan actually went along with Carlisle's ticket money. Think prospective buyers are offering him 25p in the £.

The ex Port Vale chairman Norman Smurthwhaite could still technically be owner of Port Vale as the couple who bought him out are paying in instalments (something I saw on Twitter which might be or might not be correct)

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:10 pm

"It’s come to this. Ex #Buryfc director Joy Hart has locked herself to the front of the stadium in protest at the club’s plight. Her father Les Hart is a Bury legend and has a stand named after him"

Tweet from someone at the BBC.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:15 pm

NL Claret wrote:"It’s come to this. Ex #Buryfc director Joy Hart has locked herself to the front of the stadium in protest at the club’s plight. Her father Les Hart is a Bury legend and has a stand named after him"

Tweet from someone at the BBC.

Found this:

: 05E9E695-A00C-44F0-87B9-651E9C67E809.jpeg (335.75 KiB) Viewed 3781 times

Andingle · Post by **Andingle** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:15 pm

: Screenshot_20190821_125952_com.facebook.katana.jpg (1.26 MiB) Viewed 3781 times

Andingle · Post by **Andingle** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:22 pm

I believe he has no intention to sell, he hasn't got the money to show proof of funds to the EFL, they are aware he is a blagger but they can't remove him.
The PFA have been paying towards the players wages and the FL paying other staff.
He hasn't paid wages and has control of any monies into the club.

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:24 pm

Another hopefully simple question that may have been answered in the big thread but lost (to me, at least) - what's the situational difference betwixt Bolton and Bury?

theroyaldyche · Post by **theroyaldyche** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:37 pm

Games will be played into summer if they are financially stable

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:40 pm

From all accounts the present owner has turned down a good offer and the club will be thrown out of the league this Friday.
I hope Bury Council never ever grant building permission on the Gigg, if they do that will be the end of Bury fc

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:45 pm

Posted this on the other thread

He wants £5m to cover the £3m debt and “the work he’s put in”

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:46 pm

Andingle wrote:I believe he has no intention to sell, he hasn't got the money to show proof of funds to the EFL, they are aware he is a blagger but they can't remove him.
The PFA have been paying towards the players wages and the FL paying other staff.
He hasn't paid wages and has control of any monies into the club.

That sums it up in a nutshell to me. A blagger with no money who was hoping to make a few quid.

Andingle · Post by **Andingle** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:56 pm

: Screenshot_20190821_135430_com.android.chrome.jpg (521.39 KiB) Viewed 3722 times

Andingle · Post by **Andingle** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:07 pm

ClaretTony wrote:That sums it up in a nutshell to me. A blagger with no money who was hoping to make a few quid.

However it pans out , he is going to succeed in making money out of other people's misery .
He admits he aint a Football person , he has no understanding of the lifetime passion and emotion that defines a Football fan , he has said its just a boys club , he's a **** .

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:08 pm

Ms Hart hardly looks dressed for a long term protest!!

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:20 pm

This is all very interesting. I was listening to a discussion about Newcastle United the other day and apparently they have been for sale for years but Ashley wants back all the money he has put in - not an unreasonable request you would think - but no-one is prepared to pay that kind of money for a club that is, seemingly, going nowhere and is not perceived (except by their own fans and certain aspects of the media) to be a big club. The problem seems to be, even though they are at opposite ends of the financial spectrum, both owners are expecting to get back what they have put in. Now given that, despite all the money in football, the vast majority of football clubs are not a good financial investment (most are pretty skint I think) why would any successful business man buy a club expecting to either make money or bail out at no loss? This happens quite a lot it seems and it always causes me some amusement. Owning a football club has always been (and I think mostly still is) a labour of love, a lot of hard work and financial risk for little return apart from the occasional bit of (perceived) glory.

I hope that Bury overcome their current problem (with or without the help of the Football League) but the future at the moment seems as bleak as I have seen for a football club in recent years. Who among their fans could possibly have imagined all this after celebrating their promotion just a couple of months or so ago. Sorrowful.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:25 pm

Honestly, it sounds harsh, but unless a club or two is allowed to die, where is the incentive for owners to be sensible?

LordBob · Post by **LordBob** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:31 pm

After reading most of what has been written about the debacle and speaking at length with friends that are life long Shakers I've come to the conclusion that Mr Dale is totally uninterested about seeing Bury FC survive. When I listened to Dale on talksport and the lies he was telling it appeared he was just in it for as much cash as he could get out of it and when Martin Keown asked him "if the club goes what do you intend to do with the land, the land you bought for £1" . Dale didn't answer he just said " Bury FC won't go" Apparently Gigg Lane was bequeathed and there is a covenant that states the land must always be an area for sports, that was 134 years ago and it was in place to stop creeping industrialisation I don't think old covenants are worth very much, it did'nt help at Dark Lane former home of Rossendale United. Only time will tell, I feel so bad for Bury FC and their fans.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:43 pm

Heard the guys who put an offer in to buy Bury on the radio the other day - they admitted they were not Bury fans and sounded like opportunists.
Straight after they had been on the current owner rang in to the station and he said a lot of what they had said was not the truth. He was still saying that he thought the club would not go out of business. He was a bit of an idiot though - heard him before saying that he only realised after he had bought the club that their debt was double what he thought and he could not believe some of the players contracts...how can you or your advisors miss things like this....the debt is more than £10m so we are not talking a few thousand pounds worth of debts they didn’t realise they had !
I do found it very sad though and personally I would not want a community to lose its club - the fans don’t deserve what’s happening to them.
For me I would try and find some way to pay this guy off what he paid for the club (not what he wants) ; pay outstanding creditors as per current receivership arrangements (x pence in the pound) and punish Bury by placing them in the National League...to me the FA and Premier League should pay for this - they are awash with money.
At the same time take the opportunity to revise the rules and make the penalties for breach of financial rules and going into administration much stricter - eg first time a club goes into admin automatic relegation. If they go in admin a second time then relegation to National League.
There’s lots of other areas they could improve also. Eg a far better owner “fit and proper” process ; independent governance and auditing of clubs finances (everything is after the event now when there has to be warning signs a long time before) etc etc

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:13 pm

Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, this is what it means to those most important, the supporters.

https://twitter.com/Aranclayton/status/ ... 34145?s=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Local cricketer · Post by **Local cricketer** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:22 pm

Is the bloke that's offered to by them also disliked in football circles?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:28 pm

The Fleetwood manager, someone I believe who is never short of a word or two, has had his say on the situation. He's pointing fingers at the league, rightly so, and the farce that is now the League One season.

Joey Barton has hit out at the EFL – labelling the situations at Bolton and Bury “a travesty”.

The Fleetwood Town boss believes more checks need to be made when it comes to prospective owners with both clubs left on the brink in recent months.

Both Bolton and Bury were deducted 12 points ahead of the season starting for insolvency events.

Since then the Shakers have seen all their games suspended and could be expelled from the league on Friday while Wanderers were forced to call off their clash with Doncaster on Tuesday night over concerns about the welfare of the young players who have been forced into action.

“This Fit and Proper Person Test, who does it? Clearly it does not work,” he told the Blackpool Gazette.

“Bury and Bolton are historic clubs and they have been absolutely sabotaged.

"The EFL are meant to have fans' interests and clubs at heart but it is killing the game.

"My uncle Tony Kelly played for Bolton and I made my Premier League debut there when they had the likes of Jay Jay Okocha. To see what has happened there is a farce.

"Bolton are probably going to go into the division below and Bury will probably go out of business. That is a travesty ... in the modern era, with the money that is in the game.

"For fans who have supported their clubs for decades not to be able to watch football on a Saturday is a disgrace. The EFL have to be accountable.”

Barton also thinks the respective problems at the crisis clubs and their handling by the authorities have made a mockery out of the third tier this season.

"The reality of it is the league is becoming a bit of a farce,” said the former Premier League midfielder, whose side are seventh four games in.

"Donny get a freshener this week. Someone gets a bye in the cup. What is going on?

"The EFL need to have a real serious look at themselves because it is ruining our league.

"You have two teams on negative points, teams not fulfilling fixtures. It is a joke.

"I feel sorry for Phil (Parkinson) and the guys at Bolton but someone is going to play Donny on Saturday and they will have had a fresh week. It is not right.

"Something needs to be done about it sooner rather than later because it is ruining what was a great league last year and it is making a mockery of it.

"You look at the league table in the paper and it looks like a bit of a Mickey Mouse league. Hopefully they sort it out and teams can fulfil fixtures.”

Andingle · Post by **Andingle** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:01 pm

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dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:15 pm

Andingle wrote:
FB_IMG_1566403049293.jpg
FB_IMG_1566403060316.jpg

Never trust anyone asking for money if they can't write grammatical English and they can't afford to employ someone who does.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:08 pm

Just shown a fan (presume it was a fan) kicking in the office door on North West News preview.
On at 6.30.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:16 pm

funeral is getting ready https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49414602" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:24 pm

It's a real shame. I have a mild affection for Bury - though I have no idea why. Perhaps because of Stan?

I don't really see what the difference in between Bury and Bolton, other than scale. Doesn't seem to be a fair treatment of Bury, but at this point, they're almost certainly gone.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:50 pm

The Price of Football have done a deep dive into a few of the issues around the Bury situation

http://priceoffootball.com/bury-minutes-to-midnight/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:00 am

dsr wrote:Never trust anyone asking for money if they can't write grammatical English and they can't afford to employ someone who does.

To be honest, I did read that thinking the very same thing.

No Ney Never · Post by **No Ney Never** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:17 am

Assuming a conclusion is going to be reached during 'working hours', has a time been set for an announcement by the EFL on Friday?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:21 am

No Ney Never wrote:Assuming a conclusion is going to be reached during 'working hours', has a time been set for an announcement by the EFL on Friday?

I think they've given Dale a 5 p.m. deadline

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:49 pm

Punishing clubs with relegation is not as simple as it sounds. What would you do with other clubs in the division they were relegated to? There would be too many clubs in the division - and then you would be a club short in the division they were relegated from. Would it happen mid season? What about how it would affect other clubs in terms of results against the relegated club? If one team had won two games against them and another has lost both or maybe only played them once (and maybe lost that)? How would all this affect promotion/relegation/championships? If you 'relegated' a club mid-season but said it would only take effect from the following season you would presumably have to promote an extra club from the lower division, but in doing so you are going to destroy the morale of the clubs players and fans. What would be the incentive for players to give their all? Would that club then be seen as an 'easy 3 points' after they had the news? Then you would be back to how it would affect promotion etc.

I don't think relegation is the answer - there are far to many co-lateral problems to be overcome.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:58 pm

houseboy wrote:Punishing clubs with relegation is not as simple as it sounds. What would you do with other clubs in the division they were relegated to? There would be too many clubs in the division - and then you would be a club short in the division they were relegated from. Would it happen mid season? What about how it would affect other clubs in terms of results against the relegated club? If one team had won two games against them and another has lost both or maybe only played them once (and maybe lost that)? How would all this affect promotion/relegation/championships? If you 'relegated' a club mid-season but said it would only take effect from the following season you would presumably have to promote an extra club from the lower division, but in doing so you are going to destroy the morale of the clubs players and fans. What would be the incentive for players to give their all? Would that club then be seen as an 'easy 3 points' after they had the news? Then you would be back to how it would affect promotion etc.

I don't think relegation is the answer - there are far to many co-lateral problems to be overcome.

In 1992 when Aldershot were expelled from the football league, they had played 36 games in division 4 and their results were expunged

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:04 pm

houseboy wrote:Punishing clubs with relegation is not as simple as it sounds. What would you do with other clubs in the division they were relegated to? There would be too many clubs in the division - and then you would be a club short in the division they were relegated from. Would it happen mid season? What about how it would affect other clubs in terms of results against the relegated club? If one team had won two games against them and another has lost both or maybe only played them once (and maybe lost that)? How would all this affect promotion/relegation/championships? If you 'relegated' a club mid-season but said it would only take effect from the following season you would presumably have to promote an extra club from the lower division, but in doing so you are going to destroy the morale of the clubs players and fans. What would be the incentive for players to give their all? Would that club then be seen as an 'easy 3 points' after they had the news? Then you would be back to how it would affect promotion etc.

I don't think relegation is the answer - there are far to many co-lateral problems to be overcome.

You’ve over-complicated it.
This has been done previously - Swindon.
It’s been done in Italy - Juve and Parma and in Scotland with Rangers.
The relegation happens the following season of course - the decision can be announced at any point.
There is little point punishing a club with no money with big fines.
Relegation by one division or more means a club has to start again and build itself back up gradually through the leagues.
I said that other things need to change for it to work - like the fit and proper owner test and like the auditing of clubs finances.
Football clubs are vital for the community and Bury fans now i’m sure would snap your hands off at a place in the bottom tier or National League if it meant their club could survive

wembley94 · Post by **wembley94** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:15 pm

Bury fans should start now.looking to start a phoenix club for next season

Holdo · Post by **Holdo** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:40 pm

This by far the best overview of what has happened and why Bury are in the predicament they are ...

http://priceoffootball.com/bury-minutes-to-midnight/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:43 pm

I’ve merged the two threads - was getting confusing with having two running

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:11 pm

houseboy wrote:Punishing clubs with relegation is not as simple as it sounds. What would you do with other clubs in the division they were relegated to? There would be too many clubs in the division - and then you would be a club short in the division they were relegated from. Would it happen mid season? What about how it would affect other clubs in terms of results against the relegated club? If one team had won two games against them and another has lost both or maybe only played them once (and maybe lost that)? How would all this affect promotion/relegation/championships? If you 'relegated' a club mid-season but said it would only take effect from the following season you would presumably have to promote an extra club from the lower division, but in doing so you are going to destroy the morale of the clubs players and fans. What would be the incentive for players to give their all? Would that club then be seen as an 'easy 3 points' after they had the news? Then you would be back to how it would affect promotion etc.

I don't think relegation is the answer - there are far to many co-lateral problems to be overcome.

The usual approach nowadays, I believe, would be to relegate the club by 1 division as a punishment, and if they "earn" relegation as well by finishing near the bottom, they go down two divisions. As for the division below, they get an extra promotion place with at least some notice that it's coming. Relegations would never happen mid-season.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:42 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:In 1992 when Aldershot were expelled from the football league, they had played 36 games in division 4 and their results were expunged

But how did that effect promotion and relegation? If you nullify a clubs results how do you explain that to a club who misses out on promotion after beating a relegated club when the club promoted has lost to the same? This a very real possibility.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:46 pm

dsr wrote:The usual approach nowadays, I believe, would be to relegate the club by 1 division as a punishment, and if they "earn" relegation as well by finishing near the bottom, they go down two divisions. As for the division below, they get an extra promotion place with at least some notice that it's coming. Relegations would never happen mid-season.

What would you do about the club 'playing out' the rest of the season and clubs involved in other important matters then having an easy target, as opposed to there rivals having had hard games? Whether you relegate a club mid-season or end of season it will affect other clubs in some way, it cannot be any other way.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:47 pm

I think it cost us 6 points that year, sure there was a promotion rival, possibly Blackpool or Mansfield who lost less.
Nothing you can do about it. I don’t remember any complaining from the club.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:49 pm

houseboy wrote:But how did that effect promotion and relegation? If you nullify a clubs results how do you explain that to a club who misses out on promotion after beating a relegated club when the club promoted has lost to the same? This a very real possibility.

What do you mean ?
All their results are nullified for the season which seems fair and consistent to every team they have played. Division one is a complete mess at the moment - there is no way Bolton’s results should be allowed to stand given the team they have been able to put out. Tranmere beat a bunch of kids - that and all other scores should be nullified and they need to be relegated now. They should not have been allowed to start the season in reality - it’s a shambles.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:49 pm

houseboy wrote:But how did that effect promotion and relegation? If you nullify a clubs results how do you explain that to a club who misses out on promotion after beating a relegated club when the club promoted has lost to the same? This a very real possibility.

Could have happened when Aldershot went. We’d already beaten them twice but on the day they left the league we dropped in the table.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:55 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Could have happened when Aldershot went. We’d already beaten them twice but on the day they left the league we dropped in the table.

As I remember it, we went up a place. We lost 6 points, but so did Blackpool, and we went above them on goal difference. Subject to failing memory, of course! But the chasing pack did get a bit closer.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:58 pm

TVC15 wrote:You’ve over-complicated it.
This has been done previously - Swindon.
It’s been done in Italy - Juve and Parma and in Scotland with Rangers.
The relegation happens the following season of course - the decision can be announced at any point.
There is little point punishing a club with no money with big fines.
Relegation by one division or more means a club has to start again and build itself back up gradually through the leagues.
I said that other things need to change for it to work - like the fit and proper owner test and like the auditing of clubs finances.
Football clubs are vital for the community and Bury fans now i’m sure would snap your hands off at a place in the bottom tier or National League if it meant their club could survive

The Rangers thing was a tad different - as I recall the club went bust and had to start from the very bottom of the pile with everyone shunting up so top speak. Rangers now is technically a different club. They weren't punished with relegation as such. I don't know how they did it in Italy apart from I believe AC Milan were guilty of the same things but somehow escaped punishment.
As for Bury fans being happy to take relegation to save the club I can see that but how exactly would relegation write off 10m pounds worth of debt, especially with the smaller income they would have from relegation? Genuine question as I am sure the people owed money wouldn't just say 'okay they have been punished, forget the money they owe us'.

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:02 pm

The match at Aldershot had a cracking match winner from Steve Harper
The goal never appeared on that seasons video as Aldershot owed the filming company and didnt pay

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:02 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Could have happened when Aldershot went. We’d already beaten them twice but on the day they left the league we dropped in the table.

My point entirely Tony, if you punish a club in such a way the co-lateral damage could cost another club millions, especially if it involved missing out on promotion to the PL.

I understand merging the threads by the mate, this has got far bigger than my original question intended.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:46 pm

houseboy wrote:The Rangers thing was a tad different - as I recall the club went bust and had to start from the very bottom of the pile with everyone shunting up so top speak. Rangers now is technically a different club. They weren't punished with relegation as such. I don't know how they did it in Italy apart from I believe AC Milan were guilty of the same things but somehow escaped punishment.
As for Bury fans being happy to take relegation to save the club I can see that but how exactly would relegation write off 10m pounds worth of debt, especially with the smaller income they would have from relegation? Genuine question as I am sure the people owed money wouldn't just say 'okay they have been punished, forget the money they owe us'.

£10m or so is the debt but that’s not what will be paid out to creditors - it will be in x in the pound as per the CVA.
The debt that is remaining should be (in my view) paid by the leagues to save the club and the club made to start again - in the national league.

For Bolton i’d say let them go to the wall - this maybe an irrational logic and dislike I accept - but it’s hardly my fault John McGinley decided not to throw the ball back to us in the cup game !!!