Eddie Howe

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:36 am

Whilst I questioned his defensives abilities I have never questioned his other attributes. At Burnley he had to slash the clubs overheads that first summer and although when he went back to the Cherries they were a division below us he did leave for more money than he was on at the Turf and I think once promoted to the Championship his budget was better than ours. I seem to recall him buying a striker form S Africa, who scored a screamer against us on the Turf, for about £2.5 million. We were getting players in on free transfers and having to sell Austin

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:42 am

Yes they did buy a South African striker - other than the goal at the turf he did very little else for them. A big chunk of his team were free transfers and players who had been at the club for a while. I’d be very surprised if his team cost more than the one Dyche inherited - but both teams had relatively little spent on them compared to others we were competing against.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:43 am

I'm indifferent about Howe, thought he did alright and made some important signings in his spell here. We've had far worse managers that's for sure.

It's hard to judge him at Bournemouth. Going from League Two to the Prem in two spells looks astonishing, but you'd need to see the wage bill behind each success. Not sure how many times they've finished that far above where you'd expect them to given their funding. Although of course, there's plenty who've spent big and done nowt so you couldn't say he's done a bad job. Maybe not quite the miracle worker some in the media would have you believe.

Goobs · Post by **Goobs** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:45 am

TVC15 wrote:That’s gone way too far.
Howe took on Bournemouth when they were languishing in the bottom division and took them through all the divisions and spending very little money until they got to the premier league

I stand to be corrected as this is all from memory (yes I could fact check if I cared enough but sure someone will shoot me down quickly enough if I am wrong) but I'm not sure that is entirely true. The season they got promoted wasn't their wage bill something ridiculous like 250% more than their income? Also didn't they splash out around £2-3m on that Rantie fella and possibly signed others too which at the time was a large amount for a team like them?

No issue really with Howe and think he has done a wonderful job at Bournemouth playing some nice football at times.

williamjblazkowicz · Post by **williamjblazkowicz** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:46 am

I think in the case of both Burnley and Bournemouth, both clubs have a manager that is the perfect fit and that's very apparent in the recent successes enjoyed by both. I like Howe - comes across as a good guy and still only 41. His time at Burnley wasn't perfect but he clearly played an integral part with some of the excellent players he managed to bring in to the club.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:47 am

Bournemouth also broke FFP and just paid the fine without argument.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:55 am

Goobs wrote:I stand to be corrected as this is all from memory (yes I could fact check if I cared enough but sure someone will shoot me down quickly enough if I am wrong) but I'm not sure that is entirely true. The season they got promoted wasn't their wage bill something ridiculous like 250% more than their income? Also didn't they splash out around £2-3m on that Rantie fella and possibly signed others too which at the time was a large amount for a team like them?

No issue really with Howe and think he has done a wonderful job at Bournemouth playing some nice football at times.

Not only did they spend big in the Championship, they did in League One. When he went back, in his very first window in January 2013 he signed Brett Pitman, Ryan Fraser and Matt Ritchie.

Adam Smith and Rantie were among their signings in the following summer. Rantie was a flop, he only scored five goals and two of them were against us.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:30 am

ClaretTony wrote:Not only did they spend big in the Championship, they did in League One. When he went back, in his very first window in January 2013 he signed Brett Pitman, Ryan Fraser and Matt Ritchie.

Adam Smith and Rantie were among their signings in the following summer. Rantie was a flop, he only scored five goals and two of them were against us.

Don’t think Pitman, Ritchie, Fraser or Smith were expensive Tony. Ritchie and Fraser were around £400k each and Smith came from Spurs on an undisclosed fee but he had been sent out on loan to 7 clubs by Spurs which suggests he can’t have cost much.
Not sure whether Pitman was signed or on loan - he didn’t cost much either way.

I doubt whether there was much between the spend of both clubs - i’m guessing there revenue was less given the smaller crowds and no time in the premier league but both Burnley and Bournemouth were promoted spending far less on transfers and wages than the likes of other clubs around that time like Derby, QPR, Boro, etc. Barton remember was on a widely £65k a week at that time - probably 4 or 5 times as high as our highest paid player !

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:31 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Howe may be currently going through a tough spell but is without doubt the best English football manager in the game and if any of them is gonna break the top 6 it will be him.

I don't think that is too wide of the mark, if we could somehow gel Dyche and Howe together I think you would have a management genius. Incidentally Howe after the game on Saturday was very decent in defeat, as usual. He didn't moan about the possible 'ball out of play' situation for our third goal (which it clerarly wasn't as the replay showed) as many would have, instead he blamed his players for not playing to the whistle. I like him a lot.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:36 am

TVC15 wrote:Don’t think Pitman, Ritchie, Fraser or Smith were expensive Tony. Ritchie and Fraser were around £400k each and Smith came from Spurs on an undisclosed fee but he had been sent out on loan to 7 clubs by Spurs which suggests he can’t have cost much.
Not sure whether Pitman was signed or on loan - he didn’t cost much either way.

I doubt whether there was much between the spend of both clubs - i’m guessing there revenue was less given the smaller crowds and no time in the premier league but both Burnley and Bournemouth were promoted spending far less on transfers and wages than the likes of other clubs around that time like Derby, QPR, Boro, etc. Barton remember was on a widely £65k a week at that time - probably 4 or 5 times as high as our highest paid player !

"Of course, losses are nothing new for Bournemouth. Since making a small £1 million profit in 2011, the Cherries have reported losses four years in a row, including £15 million in League One in 2013. In fact, they have aggregated a total of £65 million of losses in the last three seasons alone"

: 1 Bournemouth P&L 2015.jpg (473 KiB) Viewed 1947 times

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2016/05 ... e.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Report about Bournemouth up to 2015 by Swiss ramble.

I like Howe, I appreciate what he did here and what he's done at Bournemouth both before and during the heavy financial backing he's had, because he's made it work.
Don't ever think they haven't spent well beyond their means though.
He is a very very good fit at Bournemouth too.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:47 am

TVC15 wrote:Don’t think Pitman, Ritchie, Fraser or Smith were expensive Tony. Ritchie and Fraser were around £400k each and Smith came from Spurs on an undisclosed fee but he had been sent out on loan to 7 clubs by Spurs which suggests he can’t have cost much.
Not sure whether Pitman was signed or on loan - he didn’t cost much either way.

I doubt whether there was much between the spend of both clubs - i’m guessing there revenue was less given the smaller crowds and no time in the premier league but both Burnley and Bournemouth were promoted spending far less on transfers and wages than the likes of other clubs around that time like Derby, QPR, Boro, etc. Barton remember was on a widely £65k a week at that time - probably 4 or 5 times as high as our highest paid player !

Those signings were a frightening amount at the time for a League One club. He’d tried very hard to get some of those players in at Burnley, I certainly know about Smith & Pitman, but we couldn’t find it.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:17 am

ClaretTony wrote:Those signings were a frightening amount at the time for a League One club. He’d tried very hard to get some of those players in at Burnley, I certainly know about Smith & Pitman, but we couldn’t find it.

Not sure if this is more a perception thing rather than facts Tony.
Ritchie and Fraser were brought in the January for £400k each from Aberdeen and Swindon - presumably for a promotion push knowing they had a great chance to go up. Neither were big marquee signings - Fraser was sent out on loan to Ipswich the year after. Pitman was a loan signing that season.
Smith and the South African joined them when they were in the championship not division one.

A good nucleus of his team were players who had been at the club in the lower divisions and with Howe for a while - Pugh, Francis, Daniels, Cook etc.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:23 am

It was well documented at the time when they signed Elliott Ward what kind of figures they were paying for those who still love the fairy tale of Howe.

Ward had been at Forest on loan for the previous season and was expected to join only for them to be blown out the water by the wage on offer at Bournemouth. Not to mention the figures that the likes of Ian Harte & kermogant were on then too.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:30 am

I think Howe would be mad to leave tbh. I suspect he's found his level there. If he got binned off there arent many places i'd see him doing well.

If they did eventually get rid, I suspect he'd end up as the tonic to the inevitable sour end that will occur at Leeds, fail, and then rock up at Pompey before eventually returning to a L1 / Championship Bournemouth

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:37 am

TVC15 wrote:Not sure if this is more a perception thing rather than facts Tony.
Ritchie and Fraser were brought in the January for £400k each from Aberdeen and Swindon - presumably for a promotion push knowing they had a great chance to go up. Neither were big marquee signings - Fraser was sent out on loan to Ipswich the year after. Pitman was a loan signing that season.
Smith and the South African joined them when they were in the championship not division one.

A good nucleus of his team were players who had been at the club in the lower divisions and with Howe for a while - Pugh, Francis, Daniels, Cook etc.

Cook hadn’t been there long, signed while Howe was at Burnley. But they were paying big wages. Wasn’t their wage bill in 2012/13 season astronomical for a League One club?

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:52 am

ClaretTony wrote:Cook hadn’t been there long, signed while Howe was at Burnley. But they were paying big wages. Wasn’t their wage bill in 2012/13 season astronomical for a League One club?

Cook was again hardly a big expensive signing though - he’s in his 8th year there now and prior to that spent most his playing career in the non league !
I don’t know what their wage bill was in league one - their new Russian owner had started to get involved in the club a couple of years before he bought them outright in 2013 so I guess by then he was starting to bank roll them to a degree whilst they were in division one...but when you go through their actual signings and transfer fees in division one they don’t appear astronomical to me and they did stay loyal to a lot of the players who had played in the lower leagues.
Whichever way you look at it in my view given they were on the brink of relegation to non league he did a great job taking them to the premier league - I don’t think he has done an especially great job in the premier league with the vast amount of money he has had.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:54 am

ClaretTony wrote:Cook hadn’t been there long, signed while Howe was at Burnley. But they were paying big wages. Wasn’t their wage bill in 2012/13 season astronomical for a League One club?

"Bournemouth’s wage bill shot up by 76% (£13 million) from £17 million to £30 million in 2014/15, though this was inflated by promotion bonuses. These were not quantified, but as a comparison Watford paid £6.7 million, while Burnley paid £6.1 million, so this is likely to have had a substantial impact on Bournemouth’s wages. In addition, the number of playing staff increased from 96 to 112.

Either way, the Cherries’ wage bill has risen by £26 million in the three years since 2012 to 2015, while revenue only grew by £9 million in the same period, pushing the wages to turnover ratio up to a staggering 237%."

deanothedino · Post by **deanothedino** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:06 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:Don’t panic, don’t panic.

You stupid boy.

huh?

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:48 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:"Bournemouth’s wage bill shot up by 76% (£13 million) from £17 million to £30 million in 2014/15, though this was inflated by promotion bonuses. These were not quantified, but as a comparison Watford paid £6.7 million, while Burnley paid £6.1 million, so this is likely to have had a substantial impact on Bournemouth’s wages. In addition, the number of playing staff increased from 96 to 112.

Either way, the Cherries’ wage bill has risen by £26 million in the three years since 2012 to 2015, while revenue only grew by £9 million in the same period, pushing the wages to turnover ratio up to a staggering 237%."

So does that mean there wage bill was only £4m in 2012 ?

Clearly the clubs new owners were prepared to bank roll the losses and revenue at this point was irrelevant - they knew they were in breach of financial fair play rules and also happy to take the hit on the fine.

The speed of their rise through the leagues must have also meant a big chunk of their wage bill over this period went on promotion bonus for players and managers.

When you look at the players they signed from 2012 to getting promoted all I am saying is that it’s difficult to see how many of those could be described as big money signings - just go through the list of their players and look at their backgrounds before they signed / how much they signed for etc.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:58 pm

Of course they're big money signings if their wage bill went to 200%, or are you only looking at transfer fees?

Transfer fee, agents fees, signing on fees and wages all contribute to making a player a big money signing, especially down in league 1 and the championship.

Howe was a vital cog in the machine but without the bank rolling they'd still be down in league one or two.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:12 pm

It's obvious to anyone who has been around football for longer than two minutes that a small club like Bournemouth, would have to have a big money backer to reach the premier league and stay there for a few seasons.

Just like we had to gamble using Brendan Floods money to get to the premier league.

If smaller clubs don't gamble you will have the same 23 clubs in the premier league every year. (The extra 3 promoted?relegated)

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:49 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Of course they're big money signings if their wage bill went to 200%, or are you only looking at transfer fees?

Transfer fee, agents fees, signing on fees and wages all contribute to making a player a big money signing, especially down in league 1 and the championship.

Howe was a vital cog in the machine but without the bank rolling they'd still be down in league one or two.

No i’m not only looking at transfer fees - though that is one indicator. I’m looking at the players they bought in. Hardly household names and similar to what we did players who had failed to break into their teams or players from lower leagues or Scotland.
Which of their players purchased between the period we are discussing would you say was a “big money” / marquee signing where lots of clubs were interested ? Just like when he was at Burnley he had an eye for buying good players in the lower leagues which he could develop and would step up at a higher level...as I said look through the players he signed and see for yourself why they would justify big signing on fees or big wages.
As they were doing well these players might have had decent salary increases and bonuses for promotion I accept.
I am not saying they weren’t bank rolled - but they did not make the big signings that the likes of Villa, Wolves, Derby and many other clubs have made in recent years.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:52 pm

TVC15 wrote:No i’m not only looking at transfer fees - though that is one indicator. I’m looking at the players they bought in. Hardly household names and similar to what we did players who had failed to break into their teams or players from lower leagues or Scotland.
Which of their players purchased between the period we are discussing would you say was a “big money” / marquee signing where lots of clubs were interested ? Just like when he was at Burnley he had an eye for buying good players in the lower leagues which he could develop and would step up at a higher level...as I said look through the players he signed and see for yourself why they would justify big signing on fees or big wages.
As they were doing well these players might have had decent salary increases and bonuses for promotion I accept.
I am not saying they weren’t bank rolled - but they did not make the big signings that the likes of Villa, Wolves, Derby and many other clubs have made in recent years.

Your views just don’t match up with the facts and figures.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:18 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Your views just don’t match up with the facts and figures.

My views are that they have not spent as much on players as many other clubs trying to get to the Premier League and that Howe has had a good eye for picking up players from lower leagues for relatively low transfer fees - which bit of that view is not matched up to the facts and figures ?

You mentioned they had an “astronomical” wage bill in division one ? How much was their wage bill in that division ? And how did it compare to others.

How did their wage bill in the championship compare to the other teams in that division ? (Not just to Burnley’s)

Is it not correct that other teams in the championship have had higher wage bills and paid a lot lot more for players whilst in this division ?

If we are talking facts and figures you weren’t particularly accurate with those yourself when we were talking about specific players they signed in division one.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:38 pm

TVC15 wrote:My views are that they have not spent as much on players as many other clubs trying to get to the Premier League and that Howe has had a good eye for picking up players from lower leagues for relatively low transfer fees - which bit of that view is not matched up to the facts and figures ?

You mentioned they had an “astronomical” wage bill in division one ? How much was their wage bill in that division ? And how did it compare to others.

How did their wage bill in the championship compare to the other teams in that division ? (Not just to Burnley’s)

Is it not correct that other teams in the championship have had higher wage bills and paid a lot lot more for players whilst in this division ?

If we are talking facts and figures you weren’t particularly accurate with those yourself when we were talking about specific players they signed in division one.

I don’t recall quoting any figures for signings. Pointless discussing any further with you, you have your own thoughts and agenda.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:48 pm

TVC15 wrote:My views are that they have not spent as much on players as many other clubs trying to get to the Premier League and that Howe has had a good eye for picking up players from lower leagues for relatively low transfer fees - which bit of that view is not matched up to the facts and figures ?

You mentioned they had an “astronomical” wage bill in division one ? How much was their wage bill in that division ? And how did it compare to others.

How did their wage bill in the championship compare to the other teams in that division ? (Not just to Burnley’s)

Is it not correct that other teams in the championship have had higher wage bills and paid a lot lot more for players whilst in this division ?

If we are talking facts and figures you weren’t particularly accurate with those yourself when we were talking about specific players they signed in division one.

Wages to turnover jumped to over 200%....

If you're looking for household name/marquee signing then you're going to be disappointed, so unlucky.

What we are talking about is that massive increase in player costs which was way beyond their natural financial abilities.
The players they signed enabled them to climb into the PL eventually.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:59 pm

posted this on Saurday's match thread - gives a very clear financial picture of the 2 since Eddie went back to Bournemouth - data is up to and including the recently published accounts - so not this season - it gives a pretty clear indication of how the clubs approach things off the field

https://twitter.com/vysyble/status/1114463024553893889" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:00 pm

Both points are correct really though.

Bournemouth did spend more than what you'd expect Bournemouth to be able to spend in order to get promoted into the Premier League. As a result they owe money to their owner and may be in trouble if that debt is called in (although they're hardly unique in this).

On the other hand, they didn't blow other clubs out of the water to get the promotion. Plenty of other Championship teams spend more (on wages and transfer fees) and don't get promoted.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:53 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I don’t recall quoting any figures for signings. Pointless discussing any further with you, you have your own thoughts and agenda.

No but you quoted players being signed in division one who were not signed till they were in championship.
As for agendas I really don’t have a clue what you are talking about - maybe have a look at your own agenda first and your personal views on Howe before you start throwing around rubbish like that.
You have no idea on the figures I have asked you about but still want to argue that their spend was astronomical.

I am talking about relativity to other teams. Did Bournemouth have a higher wage bill in the championship than we did the last time we were in that division ? Was there much difference ?
Forget about parachute payments as they are irrelevant - i’m not debating which club is better financially managed. Our wage bill is managed within the budgets of our revenue - Bournemouth’s and other clubs are managed out of what their owners are prepared to bank roll them.

Didn’t Newcastle have a wage bill of £100m in the championship and the likes of Villa and Wolves and a few others will have been much higher than Bournemouth.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:57 pm

Yeah other clubs have higher wage bills, but they'll also have a higher natural revenue stream.

Bournemouth average 11k fans a game if I remember rightly, there's no way they generate enough money for the wages they were paying in the lower leagues.

I know some on here don't have an issue with clubs being bankrolled, but that's what it was, resulting in an artificial league position and also that fine from FFP rules.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:18 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Yeah other clubs have higher wage bills, but they'll also have a higher natural revenue stream.

Bournemouth average 11k fans a game if I remember rightly, there's no way they generate enough money for the wages they were paying in the lower leagues.

I know some on here don't have an issue with clubs being bankrolled, but that's what it was, resulting in an artificial league position and also that fine from FFP rules.

Agreed but if we had someone who was prepared to bank roll us and cover losses then I am sure we would and i’m sure most of our fans would want us to. The fines are also pretty much ignored because the owners are happy to pay them aswell. The alternative is you stick to your principles and decline the offer to be bank rolled whilst everyone else flaunts the rules.
We have never had the option to be bank rolled to anywhere near the degree of clubs like Bournemouth but as said I doubt we would turn it down. No medals are handed out for the most profitable clubs.
Oh and btw I much prefer the way we run our club as sugar daddies are rarely at a club forever

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:30 pm

The fines were significantly reduced before they agreed to them, latest wage information has them paying over £20m more than us on revenue that is slightly less

http://priceoffootball.com/bournemouth- ... a-ba-boom/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:03 pm

So we are settled, they’ve spent a lot of money but Howe has still done an excellent job there, been and after his stint at Burnley.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:09 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:So we are settled, they’ve spent a lot of money but Howe has still done an excellent job there, been and after his stint at Burnley.

kind of !!
He spent a lot less than a lot of other clubs in getting promoted to the Premier League.
Since he has been in the Premier League I think he has made quite a few expensive mistakes in the transfer market - a lot more than our manager has. Luckily for him (at the moment) Bournemouth can afford the costly mistakes and to carry on losing money...we can`t and that explains the different approaches to managing the clubs.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:13 pm

TVC15 wrote:kind of !!
He spent a lot less than a lot of other clubs in getting promoted to the Premier League.
Since he has been in the Premier League I think he has made quite a few expensive mistakes in the transfer market - a lot more than our manager has. Luckily for him (at the moment) Bournemouth can afford the costly mistakes and to carry on losing money...we can`t and that explains the different approaches to managing the clubs.

Yep.

Perhaps if a certain “dinner” had taken place a few more on here would have agreed with you.

RalphCoatesComb · Post by **RalphCoatesComb** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:16 pm

Shore claret wrote:They would be screwed it ake leaves.

They'd have been screwed this season had they not had such an incredible start (20 points before the end of October - we got 8 points in the same period)

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:17 pm

For context, our wages bill when we went up in 2014 was about £10m lower than Bournemouth in 2015 but our wages bill when we went up in 2016 was about £8m higher than Bournemouth in 2015.

It's swings and roundabouts, Bournemouth weren't spending huge amounts relative to the league but they were relative to their revenue.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:24 pm

TVC15 wrote:kind of !!
He spent a lot less than a lot of other clubs in getting promoted to the Premier League.
Since he has been in the Premier League I think he has made quite a few expensive mistakes in the transfer market - a lot more than our manager has. Luckily for him (at the moment) Bournemouth can afford the costly mistakes and to carry on losing money...we can`t and that explains the different approaches to managing the clubs.

I think we may have to wait and see if this is the case. A lot of the possible mistakes are still young players who, with the market the way it is at the moment, may still go for pretty substantial sums. People bring up players like Ibe, Solanke, Mings, etc but they're all young enough to at least make their money back if it doesn't work out.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:13 pm

Mings & Ibe has been there for at a while now so that’s £25m worth of players that are end of contract (or near) and won’t be worth much now.
Solanke - agree too soon but it does look like a lot of money for someone who has never really had a decent game in the Premier League.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm

aggi wrote:For context, our wages bill when we went up in 2014 was about £10m lower than Bournemouth in 2015 but our wages bill when we went up in 2016 was about £8m higher than Bournemouth in 2015.

It's swings and roundabouts, Bournemouth weren't spending huge amounts relative to the league but they were relative to their revenue.

But you would though wouldn’t you if you had that option ?!!
The variations between clubs on the spend to revenue ratio are significant so in isolation I think they are a bit of a pointless number. If you have got a high percentage and you have got there based on loans from the banks or investors who need to be repaid then relegation can destroy you - Sunderland being a good example. If your benefactor is happy to write off the losses then relegation might just mean you have to cut your cloth for a while or ensure you get promoted in the first couple of attempts and if not they write it off and move on eventually
When you are run as we are keeping this cost at a reasonable % of revenue is vital - as it would be in any other “normal” business model.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:33 pm

TVC15 wrote:But you would though wouldn’t you if you had that option ?!!
The variations between clubs on the spend to revenue ratio are significant so in isolation I think they are a bit of a pointless number. If you have got a high percentage and you have got there based on loans from the banks or investors who need to be repaid then relegation can destroy you - Sunderland being a good example. If your benefactor is happy to write off the losses then relegation might just mean you have to cut your cloth for a while or ensure you get promoted in the first couple of attempts and if not they write it off and move on eventually
When you are run as we are keeping this cost at a reasonable % of revenue is vital - as it would be in any other “normal” business model.

Personally I wouldn't be too keen on that method.

It's fine when all is going well, so long as Bournemouth stay in the Premier League I don't think they'll have any huge financial problems. However, the problem is if the person lending the money wants it back (Gretna is the most extreme illustration of this) or they go down and the owner doesn't want to continue subsiding them after a few seasons of not being promoted (Bolton for instance).

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:33 pm

His football whilst here though was absolutely tedious.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:10 pm

aggi wrote:Personally I wouldn't be too keen on that method.

It's fine when all is going well, so long as Bournemouth stay in the Premier League I don't think they'll have any huge financial problems. However, the problem is if the person lending the money wants it back (Gretna is the most extreme illustration of this) or they go down and the owner doesn't want to continue subsiding them after a few seasons of not being promoted (Bolton for instance).

Me neither - but if you look at a club like Bolton they had many seasons in the sun with this approach. The owner wrote off the best part of £200m and he’d just decided that with promotion less and less likely that he did not want to pump anymore more money in. They obviously failed to plan for this scenario.

I suppose we are lucky that we found 2 managers who got us promotion against all the odds and with so little money spent....but many clubs do go down the “bet the ranch” approach.

When we went up the first time under Coyle it was well reported that we would have made the biggest loss in our history if we would not have gone up - in relative terms it would only have been around a £10m loss but it could easily have meant administration for a club like ours. So pretty fine margins.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:31 pm

You've mentioned Bolton and Sunderland, with their owners writing off debts etc but I don't think you're fully appreciating their issues.

Yeah it's all great when their owners are covering losses and then generously writing it all off which looks fantastic, but the clubs are by this point saddled with ridiculous wage bills and stupid contracts for their players.
That's what cripples the clubs ultimately and from what you're saying, I don't think you've grasped that, apologies if I'm wrong.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:22 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:You've mentioned Bolton and Sunderland, with their owners writing off debts etc but I don't think you're fully appreciating their issues.

Yeah it's all great when their owners are covering losses and then generously writing it all off which looks fantastic, but the clubs are by this point saddled with ridiculous wage bills and stupid contracts for their players.
That's what cripples the clubs ultimately and from what you're saying, I don't think you've grasped that, apologies if I'm wrong.

Apologies accepted - i’ve grasped it very well thank you.
I understand exactly what has happened at both clubs and I am not saying it’s a good thing at all.

Bolton enjoyed many years in the premier league with this approach - after they went down they got rid of all their highly paid players whilst their owner was still subsidising them...eventually he decided to call it a day as it was clear they were a long way from ever being promoted back to the premier league. He didn’t leave them in the lurch - far from it....didn’t he send them an extra few million to save them from administration ? The owner enabled the club to have many years of success, a great new ground etc. Now they are just like any other club with no money - bills to pay, poor players and facing relegation. Which i’m guessing is where they would have been before he came.

In my previous job I was the relationship manager for many football clubs and dealt with their finances - these clubs included the likes of Man City, Liverpool, Derby , Leeds, Sheff Wed, Celtic, and a number of others. City was before the current owners.
Premier League money was building up at this time - as was Champions league money for some. I have seen many decisions made by the club boards and by my bank that beggar belief when you consider the risk - it’s no coincidence that nearly all the clubs went into administration at some point - did they care or make sure they never repeated the same mistakes ? Did they heck ? They just start again with a different set of people hell bent on trying to reach the promised land - it’s one massive ego trip for the vast majority of them....and an ego trip for many of the banks prepared to throw money at them at the time

Papabendi · Post by **Papabendi** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:36 pm

Did Howe have any money to spend when Bournemouth were bottom of League 2 with a points reduction?

BurnleyFC · Post by **BurnleyFC** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:37 pm

bodge wrote:If he buys Ben Godfrey and Jimmy Dunne in the Summer they will have a strong rear guard at home, i then don't see Wilson and Fraser leaving.

I see what you did there.

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:19 pm

TVC15 wrote:Dyche has obviously got to take a lot of credit as he brought in the likes of Heaton, Jones and Arfield (all on free transfers btw) who were all brilliant. At the same time he lost Austin which probably worked in his favour in terms of team spirit as even though he was a great scorer he is also unquestionably an idiot with a massive ego.
But the biggest single difference in that first full season for Dyche is that he had a fit Danny Ings which Howe never had - one player does not make a team but we are talking about easily the best player in the whole division that year.

Recruitment in Dyche's first full season at Burnley should include Ashley Barnes. Not quite a free transfer however has scored 30 PL goals, has 2 promotions and 2 PL survivals in his time.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:48 pm

According to the latest accounts, Bournemouth owe £70m to their owners and have share capital of £20m, we owe nothing to our owners and have share capital of £15m. This suggests that Bournemouth's net funding from sugar daddies is £75m more than ours.

(Unless, of course, they ask for it back!)

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:19 am

dsr wrote:According to the latest accounts, Bournemouth owe £70m to their owners and have share capital of £20m, we owe nothing to our owners and have share capital of £15m. This suggests that Bournemouth's net funding from sugar daddies is £75m more than ours.

(Unless, of course, they ask for it back!)

Shush, you're ruining the fairytale that people clearly believe.