Switzerland's Direct democracy

[Imploding Turtle]

They had a referendum on tax breaks, or something, and because of massive misinformation involved in winning the vote their supreme court has decided that the referendum get a re-run.

Interesting, isn't it? It's a nice concept, not letting lies and cheating win. I hope it catches on.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/wrong-stat ... s/44887174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ClaretAndJew]

Saw this earlier and wondered if it would make an appearance on here.

Sadly the concept of it won't be understood and leave voters deny any actual wrong doing by the leave campaign, despite, you know, the evidence.

Also hilarious to hear Farage talking about "picking up a rifle" if Brexit doesn't go ahead.

How can people listen to him and feel he is a rational man?

Imagine if Corbyn said similar? Oh wait he's a terrorist sympathiser.

[dsr]

You mean that because our government lied about the referendum, they should be allowed another go - even though they lost?

[ClaretAndJew]

Close the thread

[Imploding Turtle]

You mean that because our government lied about the referendum, they should be allowed another go - even though they lost?

If they had won on a foundation of lies then that result shouldn't stand either. Or are you saying that it should? Kinda interesting that you don't mind being lied to. Or maybe, as is more likely, you don't mind the rest of us being lied to if it means you get what you want.

I dispute the argument that both sides lied equally, (being wrong about an emergency budget is not the same as saying we aren't a sovereign country, for example) but even if they did just think of how dumb you make yourself sound by making that argument as an excuse for a campaign winning based entirely on lies.

[basil6345789]

Both sides "tried it on" but The Government spending 9 million of public money took the biscuit. Meltdown and all that!

[Imploding Turtle]

Both sides "tried it on" but The Government spending 9 million of public money took the biscuit. Meltdown and all that!

It's 9 million now? That figure just keeps climbing, doesn't it?

Was anything on the leaflet a lie? I notice you lot keep harping on about the funding behind the leaflet, but you never dispute the actual contents. Why?

[Imploding Turtle]

Anyway, we've drifted off topic.

What do you guys think of Switzerland's approach to lies, like this?

[Stayingup]

They had a referendum on tax breaks, or something, and because of massive misinformation involved in winning the vote their supreme court has decided that the referendum get a re-run.

Interesting, isn't it? It's a nice concept, not letting lies and cheating win. I hope it catches on.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/wrong-stat ... s/44887174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I totally agree. Project fear liars should have been excommuucated. Sent to a penal colony like Scotland.

[Bertiebeehead]

Nobody gives a ****, stop starting new threads.

[CombatClaret]

[Inserts fingers in ears]

AND DID THOSE FEET IN ANCIENT TIME...

[littlemissclaret]

1. There is no need to re-run the Referendum following the Leave campaigns "serious breach of electorial law" as the referendum was only advisory. We don't know what the judgement would be if it had been legally binding.

2. No wrong doing has ever been proven by any Remain campaign.

3. The Government leaflet was mandated in the referendum legislation and not part of any Remain
Campaign.

[Quickenthetempo]

Anyway, we've drifted off topic.

What do you guys think of Switzerland's approach to lies, like this?

You wouldn’t get a single vote through in British politics.
Everyone of them lies through their backsides.

[Imploding Turtle]

You wouldn’t get a single vote through in British politics.
Everyone of them lies through their backsides.

Maybe that would change if we actually enforced some kind of standards.

[Damo]

It's funny how Charlie seems to be such a staunch opponent of political lies.
Except the ones about Donald Trump

[Bin Ont Turf]

I wonder if finding new ways of having the same argument on the same subject will catch on, on this board?

[Devils_Advocate]

I wonder if finding new ways of having the same argument on the same subject will catch on, on this board?

I reckon it just might
http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=38166

[Bin Ont Turf]

Eddie Howe voted to leave.

That's why he's hated on here.

[dsr]

It's 9 million now? That figure just keeps climbing, doesn't it?

Was anything on the leaflet a lie? I notice you lot keep harping on about the funding behind the leaflet, but you never dispute the actual contents. Why?

Because to some of us, the incessant whinge whinge whinge that the Leave campaign spent £250k too much, meaning that their budget was £7.25m against Remain's £16m, is just plain stupid.

As for lies: "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide." was presumably just another failed prediction?

[Tricky Trevor]

Also hilarious to hear Farage talking about "picking up a rifle" if Brexit doesn't go ahead.

Could the obnoxious cnut please place it under his chin and pull the trigger?

[TonbridgeClaret]

Looks like 9 million was the correct amount.

https://fullfact.org/europe/whos-gettin ... eferendum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Foulthrow]

I enjoy people whinging about a second referendum, it would be a third one.

But, direct democracy and referendums, what a god awful idea. If Brexit has taught us anything (and I think it’s fairly clear that it has not) it would be that referendums are stupid, stupid things. A device of demagogues and dictators. Sounds about right to me.

[JohnMcGreal]

[Inserts fingers in ears]

AND DID THOSE FEET IN ANCIENT TIME...

[Imploding Turtle]

Because to some of us, the incessant whinge whinge whinge that the Leave campaign spent £250k too much, meaning that their budget was £7.25m against Remain's £16m, is just plain stupid.

As for lies: "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide." was presumably just another failed prediction?

The government is trying to implement it but are being undercut by the extremists who want a no deal, which is absolutely not what we decided or was campaigned for.

Those Leave leaders saying we voted for No Deal are just confirming more lies that they told before the referendum. So we can just add that to the supporting argument about whether courts should step in and adjudicate whether elections in this country are won based on outright lies.

[dsr]

The government is trying to implement it but are being undercut by the extremists who want a no deal, which is absolutely not what we decided or was campaigned for.

Those Leave leaders saying we voted for No Deal are just confirming more lies that they told before the referendum. So we can just add that to the supporting argument about whether courts should step in and adjudicate whether elections in this country are won based on outright lies.

And you think that being tied to the EU in perpetuity, was?

In any case, the idea that the referendum should be overturned because of lies, is very hard to do. Obviously you are absolutely certain that Leave's factual inaccuracies were the result of lies while Remain'sd factual inaccuracies were merely the result of gross incompetence by the Chancellor and others. But can you prove in court that the random slogan on a bus was the result of a carefully chosen deliberate lie while the Chancellor's forecasts were thrown together on the back of an envelope and were not relied on?

[Imploding Turtle]

And you think that being tied to the EU in perpetuity, was?

In any case, the idea that the referendum should be overturned because of lies, is very hard to do. Obviously you are absolutely certain that Leave's factual inaccuracies were the result of lies while Remain'sd factual inaccuracies were merely the result of gross incompetence by the Chancellor and others. But can you prove in court that the random slogan on a bus was the result of a carefully chosen deliberate lie while the Chancellor's forecasts were thrown together on the back of an envelope and were not relied on?

I'm looking for something in this post that you didn't pull out of your arse. I'll report back if i find anything.

[No Ney Never]

Most people I've spoken to who told me that they voted leave were of the understanding that we would simply leave, then begin the process of negotiation. If we were able to come to some agreements before we left then that was a bonus head start, they cannot fathom why all the p1ssing about. What has been termed as a 'no deal' was supposed to be the default position as far as they're concerned.
They point out that MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the principle of holding a referendum and by 316 votes to 53 on its third reading in the Commons. The result of that referendum was leave, so...?????

[Rowls]

Just about the only bare-faced lie told during the campaign was when Jeremy Corbyn came out of his polling station and told us that he'd voted to remain.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The government is trying to implement it but are being undercut by the extremists who want a no deal, which is absolutely not what we decided or was campaigned for.

Those Leave leaders saying we voted for No Deal are just confirming more lies that they told before the referendum. So we can just add that to the supporting argument about whether courts should step in and adjudicate whether elections in this country are won based on outright lies.

I'll need to check, but leave was campaigned for, how wasn't the point of the referendum.

As for winning elections on lies, yeah that happens, it's not really a big deal in GE's by the looks of it, just referendums.

[Lancasterclaret]

Duplicate post

[Lancasterclaret]

Because to some of us, the incessant whinge whinge whinge that the Leave campaign spent £250k too much, meaning that their budget was £7.25m against Remain's £16m, is just plain stupid.

As for lies: "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide." was presumably just another failed prediction?

So cos it's only a minor breach of the law it's fine?

You are an accountant.

Just think about what you've just said

(And I don't think electoral fraud is minor btw)

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Just about the only bare-faced lie told during the campaign was when Jeremy Corbyn came out of his polling station and told us that he'd voted to remain.

So not that one about sending 350 million a week to the EU and spending it on the NHS instead? No lie there at all?

[Goobs]

It's 9 million now? That figure just keeps climbing, doesn't it?

Was anything on the leaflet a lie? I notice you lot keep harping on about the funding behind the leaflet, but you never dispute the actual contents. Why?

I assume it was linked to Andre Gray's transfer from Brentford?

[Goobs]

Eddie Howe voted to leave.

That's why he's hated on here.

Well I don't want a second run of that either so let's just accept the 1st results

[JohnMcGreal]

Most people I've spoken to who told me that they voted leave were of the understanding that we would simply leave, then begin the process of negotiation. If we were able to come to some agreements before we left then that was a bonus head start, they cannot fathom why all the p1ssing about. What has been termed as a 'no deal' was supposed to be the default position as far as they're concerned.
They point out that MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the principle of holding a referendum and by 316 votes to 53 on its third reading in the Commons. The result of that referendum was leave, so...?????

I'm not sure that admitting they didn't (and still don't) understand the situation is helping their argument, to be honest.

[Goobs]

Duplicate post

interesting how you always discard the 1st and accept the 2nd

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I'm not sure that admitting they didn't (and still don't) understand the situation is helping their argument, to be honest.

So them not understanding all the mucking about isn't helping their argument?
What argument is that, they want to leave...

[aggi]

Most people I've spoken to who told me that they voted leave were of the understanding that we would simply leave, then begin the process of negotiation. If we were able to come to some agreements before we left then that was a bonus head start, they cannot fathom why all the p1ssing about. What has been termed as a 'no deal' was supposed to be the default position as far as they're concerned.
They point out that MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the principle of holding a referendum and by 316 votes to 53 on its third reading in the Commons. The result of that referendum was leave, so...?????

A good illustration of why referendums are a bad idea there. Having loads of people vote about something that they clearly don't understand and expecting a result that is never going to happen.

The man in the street's knowledge of international law is, unsurprisingly, not that good. Having those who are meant to be experts pass down the decision to those who aren't is just weak leadership.

[JohnMcGreal]

So them not understanding all the mucking about isn't helping their argument?
What argument is that, they want to leave...

I was about to reply to this but aggi has already covered it.

[elwaclaret]

It's 9 million now? That figure just keeps climbing, doesn't it?

Was anything on the leaflet a lie? I notice you lot keep harping on about the funding behind the leaflet, but you never dispute the actual contents. Why?

Remain made as many false claims as leave. Those on this magic bus that the re-run referendum seem to forget neither Johnson or Farage had any official capacity... they did not have any position to do anything but suggest it. The Government funded remain with tax payers money ( including tax payers who supported leave) to the tune of £9m.

We need a re-run? I would argue it would be more valid to prosecute those involved in any dishonesty. But that hasn’t happened because lawyers cannot find any, legally no lies were told. Do you really think they haven’t looked? Just saying

[Rowls]

So not that one about sending 350 million a week to the EU and spending it on the NHS instead? No lie there at all?

One of the problems is that not enough people (normally Remainers, sadly) cannot tell the difference between a lie and political rhetoric.

Was the quote about EU funding any more of a "lie" than George Osborne's assertion that there would be an immediate recession? Was it any more of a "lie" than the pie-in-the-sky figure about how 'worse off' we would be? What about the prediction that 500,000 people would find themselves immediately made redundant - was that a "lie"?

If you can't tell the difference between lies and political rhetoric then no wonder you think people have been "lied" to.

[aggi]

One of the problems is that not enough people (normally Remainers, sadly) cannot tell the difference between a lie and political rhetoric.

Was the quote about EU funding any more of a "lie" than George Osborne's assertion that there would be an immediate recession? Was it any more of a "lie" than the pie-in-the-sky figure about how 'worse off' we would be? What about the prediction that 500,000 people would find themselves immediately made redundant - was that a "lie"?

If you can't tell the difference between lies and political rhetoric then no wonder you think people have been "lied" to.

It was a lie.

[Imploding Turtle]

Funny how some people can distinguish between "lies" and "political rhetoric" when lies are always lies regardless of them being a part of a political campaign or not. Yet many of those same people can't grasp the concept of diplomatic rhetoric.

[No Ney Never]

A good illustration of why referendums are a bad idea there. Having loads of people vote about something that they clearly don't understand and expecting a result that is never going to happen.

The man in the street's knowledge of international law is, unsurprisingly, not that good. Having those who are meant to be experts pass down the decision to those who aren't is just weak leadership.

To be fair to those who voted for leave, the referendum was; Do you want to leave the EU, Yes or No.
There were no caveats on the ballot, therefore if that useless bunch in parliament cannot agree on a pre-agreed deal, then we leave without one.

[Imploding Turtle]

To be fair to those who voted for leave, the referendum was; Do you want to leave the EU, Yes or No.
There were no caveats on the ballot, therefore if that useless bunch in parliament cannot agree on a pre-agreed deal, then we leave without one.

People were convinced to vote leave by the arguments made, and lies told. you can't pretend that the campaign doesn't matter., That's just ******* dumb.

I don't give a **** if the answer was purely binary. The campaign matters and if the campaign that won convinced people with a "this will be a piece of ****" argument and that "we can't have everything" then when that cannot be delivered it brings the result into dispute. As it ******* should.

If i lie in court to get a verdict from a jury and the defendant is then punished, and then it comes out that I lied to get that conviction, you don't just leave it. No morons goes "well, only guilty and not guilty were on the ballot and we have to respect the will of the jury".

[Paul Waine]

People were convinced to vote leave by the arguments made, and lies told. you can't pretend that the campaign doesn't matter., That's just ******* dumb.

I don't give a **** if the answer was purely binary. The campaign matters and if the campaign that won convinced people with a "this will be a piece of ****" argument and that "we can't have everything" then when that cannot be delivered it brings the result into dispute. As it ******* should.

If i lie in court to get a verdict from a jury and the defendant is then punished, and then it comes out that I lied to get that conviction, you don't just leave it. No morons goes "well, only guilty and not guilty were on the ballot and we have to respect the will of the jury".

Hi IT, would you feel this way about things if the vote had gone the way you wanted it to go?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Hi IT, would you feel this way about things if the vote had gone the way you wanted it to go?

Yes, I'm convinced he'd be on here with his daily demands for a new vote, even if it had gone the way he wanted.
He's fair like that...

[aggi]

To be fair to those who voted for leave, the referendum was; Do you want to leave the EU, Yes or No.
There were no caveats on the ballot, therefore if that useless bunch in parliament cannot agree on a pre-agreed deal, then we leave without one.

That's the point. The situation is hugely more nuanced than a Yes/No question. Turning it into a Yes/No question with imperfect information was a terrible idea (whichever way the vote went).

[Imploding Turtle]

Hi IT, would you feel this way about things if the vote had gone the way you wanted it to go?

Just asking the question implies that I've ever said anything on here to imply that the answer is in doubt, which i think is the point of the question. I am not a hypocrite. I'm certain many people on here are, but i'm not one of them.
But then you lot love to make up **** about me.

[Bosscat]

Yes, I'm convinced he'd be on here with his daily demands for a new vote, even if it had gone the way he wanted.
He's fair like that...

One word begins with B ends in X and has an ollo middle