Switzerland's Direct democracy
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Switzerland's Direct democracy
They had a referendum on tax breaks, or something, and because of massive misinformation involved in winning the vote their supreme court has decided that the referendum get a re-run.
Interesting, isn't it? It's a nice concept, not letting lies and cheating win. I hope it catches on.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/wrong-stat ... s/44887174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting, isn't it? It's a nice concept, not letting lies and cheating win. I hope it catches on.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/wrong-stat ... s/44887174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Saw this earlier and wondered if it would make an appearance on here.
Sadly the concept of it won't be understood and leave voters deny any actual wrong doing by the leave campaign, despite, you know, the evidence.
Also hilarious to hear Farage talking about "picking up a rifle" if Brexit doesn't go ahead.
How can people listen to him and feel he is a rational man?
Imagine if Corbyn said similar? Oh wait he's a terrorist sympathiser.
Sadly the concept of it won't be understood and leave voters deny any actual wrong doing by the leave campaign, despite, you know, the evidence.
Also hilarious to hear Farage talking about "picking up a rifle" if Brexit doesn't go ahead.
How can people listen to him and feel he is a rational man?
Imagine if Corbyn said similar? Oh wait he's a terrorist sympathiser.
Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
You mean that because our government lied about the referendum, they should be allowed another go - even though they lost?
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Close the thread
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
If they had won on a foundation of lies then that result shouldn't stand either. Or are you saying that it should? Kinda interesting that you don't mind being lied to. Or maybe, as is more likely, you don't mind the rest of us being lied to if it means you get what you want.dsr wrote:You mean that because our government lied about the referendum, they should be allowed another go - even though they lost?
I dispute the argument that both sides lied equally, (being wrong about an emergency budget is not the same as saying we aren't a sovereign country, for example) but even if they did just think of how dumb you make yourself sound by making that argument as an excuse for a campaign winning based entirely on lies.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Both sides "tried it on" but The Government spending 9 million of public money took the biscuit. Meltdown and all that!
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
It's 9 million now? That figure just keeps climbing, doesn't it?basil6345789 wrote:Both sides "tried it on" but The Government spending 9 million of public money took the biscuit. Meltdown and all that!
Was anything on the leaflet a lie? I notice you lot keep harping on about the funding behind the leaflet, but you never dispute the actual contents. Why?
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Anyway, we've drifted off topic.
What do you guys think of Switzerland's approach to lies, like this?
What do you guys think of Switzerland's approach to lies, like this?
Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
I totally agree. Project fear liars should have been excommuucated. Sent to a penal colony like Scotland.Imploding Turtle wrote:They had a referendum on tax breaks, or something, and because of massive misinformation involved in winning the vote their supreme court has decided that the referendum get a re-run.
Interesting, isn't it? It's a nice concept, not letting lies and cheating win. I hope it catches on.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/wrong-stat ... s/44887174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Nobody gives a ****, stop starting new threads.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
[Inserts fingers in ears]
AND DID THOSE FEET IN ANCIENT TIME...
AND DID THOSE FEET IN ANCIENT TIME...
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
1. There is no need to re-run the Referendum following the Leave campaigns "serious breach of electorial law" as the referendum was only advisory. We don't know what the judgement would be if it had been legally binding.
2. No wrong doing has ever been proven by any Remain campaign.
3. The Government leaflet was mandated in the referendum legislation and not part of any Remain
Campaign.
2. No wrong doing has ever been proven by any Remain campaign.
3. The Government leaflet was mandated in the referendum legislation and not part of any Remain
Campaign.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
You wouldn’t get a single vote through in British politics.Imploding Turtle wrote:Anyway, we've drifted off topic.
What do you guys think of Switzerland's approach to lies, like this?
Everyone of them lies through their backsides.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Maybe that would change if we actually enforced some kind of standards.Quickenthetempo wrote:You wouldn’t get a single vote through in British politics.
Everyone of them lies through their backsides.
Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
It's funny how Charlie seems to be such a staunch opponent of political lies.
Except the ones about Donald Trump
Except the ones about Donald Trump
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
I wonder if finding new ways of having the same argument on the same subject will catch on, on this board?
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
I reckon it just mightBin Ont Turf wrote:I wonder if finding new ways of having the same argument on the same subject will catch on, on this board?
http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=38166
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Eddie Howe voted to leave.
That's why he's hated on here.
That's why he's hated on here.
Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Because to some of us, the incessant whinge whinge whinge that the Leave campaign spent £250k too much, meaning that their budget was £7.25m against Remain's £16m, is just plain stupid.Imploding Turtle wrote:It's 9 million now? That figure just keeps climbing, doesn't it?
Was anything on the leaflet a lie? I notice you lot keep harping on about the funding behind the leaflet, but you never dispute the actual contents. Why?
As for lies: "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide." was presumably just another failed prediction?
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Could the obnoxious cnut please place it under his chin and pull the trigger?ClaretAndJew wrote:Also hilarious to hear Farage talking about "picking up a rifle" if Brexit doesn't go ahead.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Looks like 9 million was the correct amount.
https://fullfact.org/europe/whos-gettin ... eferendum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://fullfact.org/europe/whos-gettin ... eferendum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
I enjoy people whinging about a second referendum, it would be a third one.
But, direct democracy and referendums, what a god awful idea. If Brexit has taught us anything (and I think it’s fairly clear that it has not) it would be that referendums are stupid, stupid things. A device of demagogues and dictators. Sounds about right to me.
But, direct democracy and referendums, what a god awful idea. If Brexit has taught us anything (and I think it’s fairly clear that it has not) it would be that referendums are stupid, stupid things. A device of demagogues and dictators. Sounds about right to me.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
CombatClaret wrote:[Inserts fingers in ears]
AND DID THOSE FEET IN ANCIENT TIME...
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
The government is trying to implement it but are being undercut by the extremists who want a no deal, which is absolutely not what we decided or was campaigned for.dsr wrote:Because to some of us, the incessant whinge whinge whinge that the Leave campaign spent £250k too much, meaning that their budget was £7.25m against Remain's £16m, is just plain stupid.
As for lies: "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide." was presumably just another failed prediction?
Those Leave leaders saying we voted for No Deal are just confirming more lies that they told before the referendum. So we can just add that to the supporting argument about whether courts should step in and adjudicate whether elections in this country are won based on outright lies.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
And you think that being tied to the EU in perpetuity, was?Imploding Turtle wrote:The government is trying to implement it but are being undercut by the extremists who want a no deal, which is absolutely not what we decided or was campaigned for.
Those Leave leaders saying we voted for No Deal are just confirming more lies that they told before the referendum. So we can just add that to the supporting argument about whether courts should step in and adjudicate whether elections in this country are won based on outright lies.
In any case, the idea that the referendum should be overturned because of lies, is very hard to do. Obviously you are absolutely certain that Leave's factual inaccuracies were the result of lies while Remain'sd factual inaccuracies were merely the result of gross incompetence by the Chancellor and others. But can you prove in court that the random slogan on a bus was the result of a carefully chosen deliberate lie while the Chancellor's forecasts were thrown together on the back of an envelope and were not relied on?
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
I'm looking for something in this post that you didn't pull out of your arse. I'll report back if i find anything.dsr wrote:And you think that being tied to the EU in perpetuity, was?
In any case, the idea that the referendum should be overturned because of lies, is very hard to do. Obviously you are absolutely certain that Leave's factual inaccuracies were the result of lies while Remain'sd factual inaccuracies were merely the result of gross incompetence by the Chancellor and others. But can you prove in court that the random slogan on a bus was the result of a carefully chosen deliberate lie while the Chancellor's forecasts were thrown together on the back of an envelope and were not relied on?
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Most people I've spoken to who told me that they voted leave were of the understanding that we would simply leave, then begin the process of negotiation. If we were able to come to some agreements before we left then that was a bonus head start, they cannot fathom why all the p1ssing about. What has been termed as a 'no deal' was supposed to be the default position as far as they're concerned.
They point out that MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the principle of holding a referendum and by 316 votes to 53 on its third reading in the Commons. The result of that referendum was leave, so...?????
They point out that MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the principle of holding a referendum and by 316 votes to 53 on its third reading in the Commons. The result of that referendum was leave, so...?????
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Just about the only bare-faced lie told during the campaign was when Jeremy Corbyn came out of his polling station and told us that he'd voted to remain.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
I'll need to check, but leave was campaigned for, how wasn't the point of the referendum.Imploding Turtle wrote:The government is trying to implement it but are being undercut by the extremists who want a no deal, which is absolutely not what we decided or was campaigned for.
Those Leave leaders saying we voted for No Deal are just confirming more lies that they told before the referendum. So we can just add that to the supporting argument about whether courts should step in and adjudicate whether elections in this country are won based on outright lies.
As for winning elections on lies, yeah that happens, it's not really a big deal in GE's by the looks of it, just referendums.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Duplicate post
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
So cos it's only a minor breach of the law it's fine?dsr wrote:Because to some of us, the incessant whinge whinge whinge that the Leave campaign spent £250k too much, meaning that their budget was £7.25m against Remain's £16m, is just plain stupid.
As for lies: "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide." was presumably just another failed prediction?
You are an accountant.
Just think about what you've just said
(And I don't think electoral fraud is minor btw)
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
So not that one about sending 350 million a week to the EU and spending it on the NHS instead? No lie there at all?Rowls wrote:Just about the only bare-faced lie told during the campaign was when Jeremy Corbyn came out of his polling station and told us that he'd voted to remain.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
I assume it was linked to Andre Gray's transfer from Brentford?Imploding Turtle wrote:It's 9 million now? That figure just keeps climbing, doesn't it?
Was anything on the leaflet a lie? I notice you lot keep harping on about the funding behind the leaflet, but you never dispute the actual contents. Why?
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Well I don't want a second run of that either so let's just accept the 1st resultsBin Ont Turf wrote:Eddie Howe voted to leave.
That's why he's hated on here.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
I'm not sure that admitting they didn't (and still don't) understand the situation is helping their argument, to be honest.No Ney Never wrote:Most people I've spoken to who told me that they voted leave were of the understanding that we would simply leave, then begin the process of negotiation. If we were able to come to some agreements before we left then that was a bonus head start, they cannot fathom why all the p1ssing about. What has been termed as a 'no deal' was supposed to be the default position as far as they're concerned.
They point out that MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the principle of holding a referendum and by 316 votes to 53 on its third reading in the Commons. The result of that referendum was leave, so...?????
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
interesting how you always discard the 1st and accept the 2ndLancasterclaret wrote:Duplicate post
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
So them not understanding all the mucking about isn't helping their argument?JohnMcGreal wrote:I'm not sure that admitting they didn't (and still don't) understand the situation is helping their argument, to be honest.
What argument is that, they want to leave...
Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
A good illustration of why referendums are a bad idea there. Having loads of people vote about something that they clearly don't understand and expecting a result that is never going to happen.No Ney Never wrote:Most people I've spoken to who told me that they voted leave were of the understanding that we would simply leave, then begin the process of negotiation. If we were able to come to some agreements before we left then that was a bonus head start, they cannot fathom why all the p1ssing about. What has been termed as a 'no deal' was supposed to be the default position as far as they're concerned.
They point out that MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the principle of holding a referendum and by 316 votes to 53 on its third reading in the Commons. The result of that referendum was leave, so...?????
The man in the street's knowledge of international law is, unsurprisingly, not that good. Having those who are meant to be experts pass down the decision to those who aren't is just weak leadership.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
I was about to reply to this but aggi has already covered it.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:So them not understanding all the mucking about isn't helping their argument?
What argument is that, they want to leave...
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Remain made as many false claims as leave. Those on this magic bus that the re-run referendum seem to forget neither Johnson or Farage had any official capacity... they did not have any position to do anything but suggest it. The Government funded remain with tax payers money ( including tax payers who supported leave) to the tune of £9m.Imploding Turtle wrote:It's 9 million now? That figure just keeps climbing, doesn't it?
Was anything on the leaflet a lie? I notice you lot keep harping on about the funding behind the leaflet, but you never dispute the actual contents. Why?
We need a re-run? I would argue it would be more valid to prosecute those involved in any dishonesty. But that hasn’t happened because lawyers cannot find any, legally no lies were told. Do you really think they haven’t looked? Just saying
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
One of the problems is that not enough people (normally Remainers, sadly) cannot tell the difference between a lie and political rhetoric.Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:So not that one about sending 350 million a week to the EU and spending it on the NHS instead? No lie there at all?
Was the quote about EU funding any more of a "lie" than George Osborne's assertion that there would be an immediate recession? Was it any more of a "lie" than the pie-in-the-sky figure about how 'worse off' we would be? What about the prediction that 500,000 people would find themselves immediately made redundant - was that a "lie"?
If you can't tell the difference between lies and political rhetoric then no wonder you think people have been "lied" to.
Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
It was a lie.Rowls wrote:One of the problems is that not enough people (normally Remainers, sadly) cannot tell the difference between a lie and political rhetoric.
Was the quote about EU funding any more of a "lie" than George Osborne's assertion that there would be an immediate recession? Was it any more of a "lie" than the pie-in-the-sky figure about how 'worse off' we would be? What about the prediction that 500,000 people would find themselves immediately made redundant - was that a "lie"?
If you can't tell the difference between lies and political rhetoric then no wonder you think people have been "lied" to.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Funny how some people can distinguish between "lies" and "political rhetoric" when lies are always lies regardless of them being a part of a political campaign or not. Yet many of those same people can't grasp the concept of diplomatic rhetoric.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
To be fair to those who voted for leave, the referendum was; Do you want to leave the EU, Yes or No.aggi wrote:A good illustration of why referendums are a bad idea there. Having loads of people vote about something that they clearly don't understand and expecting a result that is never going to happen.
The man in the street's knowledge of international law is, unsurprisingly, not that good. Having those who are meant to be experts pass down the decision to those who aren't is just weak leadership.
There were no caveats on the ballot, therefore if that useless bunch in parliament cannot agree on a pre-agreed deal, then we leave without one.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
No Ney Never wrote:To be fair to those who voted for leave, the referendum was; Do you want to leave the EU, Yes or No.
There were no caveats on the ballot, therefore if that useless bunch in parliament cannot agree on a pre-agreed deal, then we leave without one.
People were convinced to vote leave by the arguments made, and lies told. you can't pretend that the campaign doesn't matter., That's just ******* dumb.
I don't give a **** if the answer was purely binary. The campaign matters and if the campaign that won convinced people with a "this will be a piece of ****" argument and that "we can't have everything" then when that cannot be delivered it brings the result into dispute. As it ******* should.
If i lie in court to get a verdict from a jury and the defendant is then punished, and then it comes out that I lied to get that conviction, you don't just leave it. No morons goes "well, only guilty and not guilty were on the ballot and we have to respect the will of the jury".
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Hi IT, would you feel this way about things if the vote had gone the way you wanted it to go?Imploding Turtle wrote:People were convinced to vote leave by the arguments made, and lies told. you can't pretend that the campaign doesn't matter., That's just ******* dumb.
I don't give a **** if the answer was purely binary. The campaign matters and if the campaign that won convinced people with a "this will be a piece of ****" argument and that "we can't have everything" then when that cannot be delivered it brings the result into dispute. As it ******* should.
If i lie in court to get a verdict from a jury and the defendant is then punished, and then it comes out that I lied to get that conviction, you don't just leave it. No morons goes "well, only guilty and not guilty were on the ballot and we have to respect the will of the jury".
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Yes, I'm convinced he'd be on here with his daily demands for a new vote, even if it had gone the way he wanted.Paul Waine wrote:Hi IT, would you feel this way about things if the vote had gone the way you wanted it to go?
He's fair like that...
Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
That's the point. The situation is hugely more nuanced than a Yes/No question. Turning it into a Yes/No question with imperfect information was a terrible idea (whichever way the vote went).No Ney Never wrote:To be fair to those who voted for leave, the referendum was; Do you want to leave the EU, Yes or No.
There were no caveats on the ballot, therefore if that useless bunch in parliament cannot agree on a pre-agreed deal, then we leave without one.
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Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
Just asking the question implies that I've ever said anything on here to imply that the answer is in doubt, which i think is the point of the question. I am not a hypocrite. I'm certain many people on here are, but i'm not one of them.Paul Waine wrote:Hi IT, would you feel this way about things if the vote had gone the way you wanted it to go?
But then you lot love to make up **** about me.
Re: Switzerland's Direct democracy
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Yes, I'm convinced he'd be on here with his daily demands for a new vote, even if it had gone the way he wanted.
He's fair like that...
One word begins with B ends in X and has an ollo middle
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